Are Wrongly Disfellowshipped People Automatically Reinstated?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

( it is now Saturday afternoon ... and the sound of crickets chirping in the silence is all that is heard ...)

[Srecko Sostar]

On 8/30/2018 at 8:09 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am going to make some popcorn ..... the replies should be interesting !

Looks like you're gonna work a lot of popcorn....because the replies will not come for a long time ...
if it ever will!? :))

[Srecko Sostar]

"Wrongly Disfellowshipped People"

I was looked  at this title of post again  and again. I feel how something is not right with this choice of words. And finally get to answer why  and what bothered me. 

Word "Wrongly" is  completely wrong. The elders pray before the meeting. They were "spiritually guided", or "inspired" if you like. This means there is no mistake, there is no wrong conclusion and decision.

To admit that some of the decisions were wrong would ruin their authority. And if you can not believe the elders ... whom you can trust then?

;))))

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

This is known as a "Semantics Trap", where you are chained by a false premise and the chain of logic is too short to allow you to reach the proper conclusion.

If "the law" states that you will be hung by the neck until dead, if you park your car in a handicapped parking place ... and you DO park your car in a handicapped parking place without that little handicapped sign on your car, or whatever is required, you are "rightfully" executed for doing what you are doing.

Anyone with a true sense of justice knows the punishment does not fit the crime, but in some societies, there is no such thing as common sense or mercy, or even "extenuating circumstances" such as perhaps your car engine failed, and that was the only spot you could roll your car to, to get it out of the main traffic or travel-way.

Last year, October 1, 2017 in Las Vegas, while a mass murderer was shooting  from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel, at people at a concert in the street below.........

(In approximately ten minutes he killed 58 people, and left 851 people injured)

....... One man below decided to steal a truck inside a Company parking lot (he knew they kept their keys in the trucks), and with that stolen truck he  went into the line of gunfire, and amid the dead and dying,  loaded it up with wounded, and took them to the hospitals.

He confessed to deliberately stealing the truck (grand theft/auto ... a felony), and it became world wide news.  A self confessed and globally notorious car thief.

Yes he was a thief.

A self confessed and globally notorious car thief.

No ... he was NOT repentant ... and would do it again, in similar circumstances.

The law stated that he could be sentenced to two or more years in a Nevada prison.

He was not charged as a felony thief, although he was absolutely guilty.

It was NOT the right thing to do, and NO REASONABLE PERSON, not the Utility Company that owned the truck, not the police, not the stupidest man wandering the streets of Las Vegas even imagined charging him with vehicle theft.

If he would have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, under current rules as commonly practiced EVERYWHERE by the current system, only three things would have been considered.

1.) Did he steal someone's vehicle?  -  (yes, he did).

2.) Did the public find out about it, and know he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses?  -  (yes, and yes).

3.) Was he truly repentant of his crime, and firmly resolved never to do it again? - (no, he was not and could NEVER be).

Therefore, as night follows day, BIG ORG would have had him disfellowshipped, and without repentance ( perhaps even some begging and tears, and rending of clothes ...) he would be forever disfellowshipped. No mercy would be shown ... just the blind application of ORG policy. 

In righteous indignation he may even pleaded for real  for JUSTICE ... but his pleas would be laughed at. (I have actually heard this, of first hand knowledge, as a couple sat in the darkened Kingdom Hall awaiting judgement ... ).

This is what happens when simple common sense is foreign to the minds of those who seek to consolidate their authority, and not be removed from their positions of authority. ...........

According to Big Org law, the thief would have been rightfully convicted of being an unrepentant thief.

And NO ONE would have "spoken up" for him, for fear they also would be disfellowshipped for disturbing the unity of the Congregation, for they, themselves also would for a certainty also be disfellowshipped, for questioning the decisions of the Elders, for Apostasy, or "brazen conduct" (which covers nothing and everything at the same time) .... or in any way indicating Big Org's  judgement was anything else but, as George Orwell in his book "1984"  put it ... "Doubleplusgood".

..........

Such devotion to "law" would have made the Pharisees of Jesus' day very proud.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

41 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Anyone with a true sense of justice knows the punishment does not fit the crime, but in some societies, there is no such thing as common sense or mercy, or even "extenuating circumstances"

Idiots and idiotic rules exist in every society. Here in Zagreb, one baker freely shared to poor people the excess of bread and rolls that he did not sell on that day in front of his workshop. Inspectors punished him for $ 5,000 for that. Namely, the law says that unsold bakery products must be thrown into the garbage????!!! Common sense tell me where are you living?!

https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/pekar-qenaj-koji-dijeli-besplatno-kruh-nakon-kazne-ponos-hrvatske-46041

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

..sometimes I think we are living in a cartoon world, controlled by imitation comedians, and  Caleb and Sophia.

[Srecko Sostar]

As you said, "semantic trap" is a great tool for such things :))

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... reflecting back on what I just wrote .... it is an embarrassment, and a crying shame that concerning wisdom and common sense .... and justice and mercy .... that the average people living in Las Vegas, Nevada, the self proclaimed "Sin Capitol of the World" ... have the moral high ground.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

average people living in Las Vegas, Nevada, the self proclaimed "Sin Capitol of the World" ... have the moral high ground.

money makes miracles :)))

now for serious - yes, human brain and emotions inside are marvelous. 

[Grey Reformer]

Do people have a need to argue an untenable point by extreme outsiders, just because former witnesses, other religious cults, and atheist have nothing better to do than insult the intelligence of people, which is driven by their own blinded hate?

But, since you asked. I will give you an example of how former witnesses like to think. Let’s make light of an individual, a blowhard that enjoys criticizing the Watchtower, and the GB. That in itself is not a charge that can be levied against this big mouth. However, the mentality of such people become cluttered by a simple truth. You can say or show all the disdain against an individual or organization all you want, as long as you keep that big mouth to yourself.

Then God will Judge you on your personal merits. But as soon as that individual decides to SHARE his disdain of others within an organization, then you are opposing Christ Message to true Christians, about causing strife, and divisions in the congregations. Then it is up to the Elders to get to the bottom of that person's issue. One thing they cannot do is allow that person to poison the minds of others.

HereÂ’s a simple outtake. How many people can honestly say, I go to work and openly criticize my boss every day? And think you wonÂ’t get FIRED at some point. LetÂ’s not clutter peopleÂ’s mindset with outrageous conclusions. This isnÂ’t Trump's world.

So, if that blowhard doesnÂ’t understand or refuses to make a change to keep the congregation with unity? Then the Elders would be correct to disfellowship or reprove such an obstructionist. Here is when people start crying foul. I donÂ’t understand why the Watchtower DÂ’fd me. What kind of cruel place is it, when people canÂ’t speak their minds? If you were reproved for being an obstructionist, and continue as an obstructionist, then that is where disfellowship comes in. So, a person has been warned to make the necessary changes. Yet you have former witnesses making it seem, they canÂ’t understand why they were dÂ’fd or why. They come to these forums spilling all sort of lies. I donÂ’t know why I was dÂ’fd, I was only cheating on my wife, and I love both women, and I want to keep them both. It's not the societies business what I do with my personal life. It's my life. Everyone in this world cheats. Everyone lies, cheat and steal. The Catholic Church allows drunks and drug addicts. Why does the Watchtower need to be so hard? Because itÂ’s not the Watchtower that is hard, its GodÂ’s law that need to be obeyed. It is through this understanding the Watchtower operates. So, those who criticize the Watchtower are actually criticizing GodÂ’s law or God himself for showing us the way to be good Christians with a good clean Christian life under the cover of imperfection.

Remember, you can drag the Watchtower through the sewer, all you want by your own thought, but according to scripture, once you cross that red line, then it becomes a moral standard dilemma, and it needs to be taken by the severity of that personÂ’s Christian conduct.

Now, in that person's mind, they can say, will wait a minute, even the apostle argued. So, whatÂ’s the difference? The difference is, everyone, back them were LEARNING from each other, and making adjustments accordingly until scripture could finally be used as a reference guide on how to live a Christian life under God laws. Just as Jesus rebuked his apostles, so can the ones in authority rebuke (disfellowship) those that are not in harmony with a good Christian life. Here, the mentality of some that have cluttered their minds with confusion, canÂ’t see beyond their rhetoric. To such people, look at the definition of words.

Rebuke:

The beauty of mentality is when people use it with reasoning, understanding, and wisdom. Playing to their own false assumptions corrupt not only the mind but the heart as well.

If a person shows true repentance, then that person can be reinstated. But if that person continues being an obstructionist? Then that person shows no willingness to reform. So, is disfellowship automatic? NO! Is reinstating automatic? NO!

 

Can imperfect men make a mistake? Yes, and if a mistake has been made, they would have learned the truth before publicly announcing a person has been disfellowshipped. The truth comes out, one way or another. Those with no remorse and fail to abide by God's laws, and have been baptized to do just that, then God expects that person to keep their promise, and if not, there is no middle ground, maybe I'll support this but not that, such person cannot be part of unity by being an obstructionist.

 

(James 5:13-16) ¹³Â Is there anyone suffering hardship among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. ¹⁴ Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. ¹⁵ And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous manÂ’s supplication has a powerful effect.

Who will not inherit the earth?  1 Corinthians 6:9-10  and still be part of Christ body.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Grey Reformer:

Apparently you think that things that are WRONG, can be reformed with happy thoughts, and magic pixie dust.

For those that believe in Justice, fairness, and equity,  they come to realize that reform ALWAYS carries personal risk.

SERIOUS personal risk.

If you want to effect reform, you MUST call what is good, good ... and what is bad, bad.

Often the two are mixed together.

That's why we do not cut off a baby's head when they poop in their diaper.

Perhaps I should rephrase that .... reasonable people do not cut off baby's heads when they poop in their diapers.

Ultimately, we will all live or die at the will of Jehovah God and his Christ.

NOT where arbitrary and cruel Big Org protectionist policy hits the fan.

They can ONLY make your life a joy when they are right ... and completely miserable when they are wrong.

 

[Grey Reformer]

That’s why obeying God is good, and disobeying God is bad. There is no middle ground in which you can stand in a firm footing. Either you are a true Christian or you’re not. The one who will ultimately judge your mortal soul will be God and Christ. How does a reviler convince God his/her intentions were honorable?

However, the expectation is something many cling to. The Elders get to the bottom of all situations. The lack of reasoning shows, that a committee of Elders would wrongfully pass judgment on someone without the proper proof first. Even when the government needs to be informed, the Elders give everyone the opportunity to seek outside help and due process by outside authority. The problem there lies that too many former witnesses that now attack the Watchtower fail to see that they were given that admonishment that they probably failed to act upon because of their closeness to Jehovah, but has changed because social laws have changed, and there are many sharks preying to make money however it comes. 

 

Once again, those lawyers usually fail to put that admonishment in print for others to make that argument. Just like the confirmation of kavanaugh. The President now uses presidential privilege to not show 100,000 pages of kavanaugh's work in the Whitehouse under, Bush.