Jehovah’s Witnesses former members tell court they were subjected to ‘total control’

[derek1956]

It`s not just one person who will suffer if the judge takes notice of the false witnesses !

It`s at least 175,000+

would you like that number on your conscience?

 

[Evacuated]

Trying to get a picture of the Ministry of Justice witnesses and testimony but it is difficult to get any thing further than: 

Natalia Koretskaya.  JW for 14 years. Disfellowshipped in 2009 for immorality??

Pavel Zverev. JW at young age. Seems to have spent 2 years as a cook in Bethel after having been "dissuaded" from seeking further education at age 16yrs?

Nina Petrova. In organisation for 28 years! and pressured not to have a family until too late?

A fourth witness is not detailed.

There seems to be additional issues for some with depression and alcoholism after "quitting" the organisation.

They all seem of the view that they were subject to "total control" whilst with Jehovah's Witnesses. (Perhaps not completely "total" as they seem to be no longer associated.)

If the judge is expressing lack of clarity on the objective of the MOJ presentation with all the information at their disposal, what hope do we have when subjected to these obscured accounts?

I understand @JamesThomasRook 's frustration on reporting from both sides of the matter expressed elsewhere.

[Anna]

To my knowledge, no one can be controlled unless they want to be, or unless they are subject to extreme psychological duress.   

These are all excuses.  Assigning blame on something or someone else instead of accepting we went the direction we didn’t really want to go, or changed our mind about the direction later. Most of these accusations are only a cover up for immorality and other behaviours unacceptable in the Christian congregation. The congregation has to be kept morally and doctrinally clean.  Recommendation against higher education is just that, recommendation.  Humans are very, very good at blaming and making excuses, and have been since the creation of Adam.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

15 hours ago, derek1956 said:

It`s not just one person who will suffer if the judge takes notice of the false witnesses !

It`s at least 175,000+

would you like that number on your conscience?

 

The WTB&TS has more that that to account for with one incident alone ..... their 9-1/2 year contractural association as a NGO registered with the United Nations, which caused at least that many Jehovah's Witnesses in South America alone to abandon the publishing empire, after it was exposed like an atom bomb to the whole world circa 2001, in the UK newspaper "The Guardian".

I can think of perhaps a dozen other instances, not only of malfeasance, but subsequent attempts of cover-up that were never even mentioned to the rank and file Congregations.

.. rough estimate of perhaps 4 million Witness in a 25 year period, chased away.

My wife's mother and my wife were Roman Catholic, and she and my wife were chased away from the RCs and left due to the pedophile priest scandals. They had a conscience ... so do most of Jehovah's Witnesses.

People of integrity ACT on their consciences.

And if the Russian Judge does make an adverse ruling ... IT WILL ALL BE OPEN AND OUT IN THE PUBLIC FOR ALL TO SEE.

... NOT HIDDEN AWAY IN A Kingdom Hall Filing cabinet in sealed envelope, with a copy in a sealed blue envelope at Warwick.

.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

To my knowledge, no one can be controlled unless they want to be, or unless they are subject to extreme psychological duress.  

There are varying degrees of psychological coercion that lie in-between being a pushover or being under extreme duress. The reasons for people feeling as if they are channeled into certain behaviors are multi-factorial.

I'm sure you've heard of Milgram's obedience experiments for example, and other social/psychological studies done on how controlling groups influence their adherents.

Firstly, there has to be a rigid ideology and authority structure (God and God's chosen leaders). Secondly, the person has to fully believe in the ideology and legitimacy of the authority structure, which comes with regularly associating with the group and being indoctrinated or trained in the ways, beliefs and objectives of the group. From that follows reinforcement, peer pressure and implanting fears about rejection and banishment and/or loss of salvation, eternity in hell, death at Armageddon, etc. for non-conformity.

http://changingminds.org/techniques/conversion/social_psychological_conditioning.htm. Although this webpage is focusing on how terrorist radicalization works, other controlling groups use similar tactics (albeit maybe to a lesser degree).

Just to pick out a couple of examples:

Quote

Depluralization

Stripping away of membership of all other groups, thus isolating the person and making them more susceptible to the terrorist [or other controlling groups'] messages.

This may well also include separating them from their families, who might well attempt to persuade them back to a more normal way of thinking and acting.

Compare:

*** w64 3/1 p. 148 par. 17 Youth, Get Saved from This Crooked Generation ***
Meanwhile, if you are still attending school, be a good representative of your Creator there among your classmates. ... Withstand the efforts they will make to get you tied in with their worldly social arrangements, such as joining their various groups, choirs, bands, sports clubs, literary societies, and the like.

*** w13 2/15 p. 24 Beware of the Intentions of the Heart ***
Our choice of associates. Of course, some contact with unbelievers—such as at school, at work, and when sharing in the ministry—is unavoidable. It is quite another matter, though, to socialize with them, even cultivating close friendships with them. Do we justify such association by saying that they have many good qualities? “Do not be misled,” warns the Bible. “Bad associations spoil useful habits.” (1 Cor. 15:33) Just as a small amount of pollution can contaminate clean water, friendship with those who do not practice godly devotion can contaminate our spirituality and lead us into adopting worldly viewpoints, dress, speech, and conduct.

*** w01 8/15 p. 16 par. 7 Abraham—An Example of Faith ***
We may have opposition from unbelieving family members, including disfellowshipped relatives, who might try to lure us into unwholesome association. (Matthew 10:34-36; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 15:33) 

Quote

 

Dehumanization

Framing the enemy as being less than human, turning them them into objects that are easy to attack without shame or guilt.

Others are thus defined as stupid, immoral, unreliable, debased, and so on. They are framed as animals (rats, cockroaches, etc.) or worse (filth, germs) and deserving of being killed.

 

Compare:

*** w54 11/15 p. 680 Is World Unity a Dream? ***
The earth will not be burned up. Just as we would not burn down a barn to kill the rats, Jehovah will not burn up the earth to kill the goats, or Satan. He will destroy this present wicked system and replace it with a righteous system, his new world.

*** w11 7/15 p. 16 par. 6 Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings? ***
Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease. You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are “mentally diseased,” and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings. (1 Tim. 6:3, 4) 

*** w96 4/15 p. 15 par. 18 Why Worldly Religion Will End ***
Unquestionably, Christendom’s rotten fruitage makes it fit only for destruction by God.—1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 2 John 10, 11.
 

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Most of these accusations are only a cover up for immorality and other behaviours unacceptable in the Christian congregation.

This is a sweeping statement. People's reasons for leaving are many and don't necessarily mean they want to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle. Regarding 'unacceptable behaviors,' this is judged, of course, through the lens of current JW doctrinal interpretations. What may be unacceptable to the Org, may not actually be unacceptable scripturally.

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Recommendation against higher education is just that, recommendation.

And we all know what 'recommendations,' 'advice,' and 'timely warnings' issued from the 'faithful and discreet slave' mean to the loyal JW. Higher education is 'frowned upon' so much that elders whose household members are pursuing it, may have their qualifications to serve called into question (BOE letter, 8/15/09).

[derek1956]

I think some are going off the topic, bringing in all sorts of things, originally this conversation was talking about a once sister who was a JW for 28 years, then after that found someone outside the truth to love and marry , and then turning her back completely on Jehovah. all I see now is an excuse for her, why oh why not drop this conversation before the topic even goes down more and you yourselves start to question the organization and fall away from the TRUTH.

[Evacuated]

4 minutes ago, derek1956 said:

originally this conversation was talking about a once sister who was a JW for 28 years,

Actually the focus on this sister was really your contribution (admittedly early on) to a discussion generated by an original post about a number of people claiming "total control" whilst being members of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia. So it isn't really going off topic, yet.

I appreciate your concern regarding what you see as a dangerous line of reasoning however, but remember this is a public forum. We are all at liberty to stay clear of discussions that we feel stray across our personal boundaries for consideration.

[Anna]

Well I guess Ann, you don't view the Bible as authority from God, many do however.

 

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

19 hours ago, Anna said:

Most of these accusations are only a cover up for immorality and other behaviours unacceptable in the Christian congregation.

This is a sweeping statement. People's reasons for leaving are many and don't necessarily mean they want to pursue a hedonistic lifestyle. Regarding 'unacceptable behaviors,' this is judged, of course, through the lens of current JW doctrinal interpretations. What may be unacceptable to the Org, may not actually be unacceptable scripturally.

That is why I said most. That is all I have known to be the reasons in my more than 30 years of being a JW, except for two cases. One family in my congregation left because "they wanted to take a break". Nobody pursued them or tried to coerce them to come back. And the other was a former Catholic, who left JW upon finding out about the pedophilia scandal (Panorama). Nobody pursued or tried to coerce her to come back either. I am not making any of this up because I knew both sets of people very well, including what happened after they left. As regards unacceptable behavior, care to give me some examples of where this is actually not unacceptable in the scripture?

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

And we all know what 'recommendations,' 'advice,' and 'timely warnings' issued from the 'faithful and discreet slave' mean to the loyal JW. Higher education is 'frowned upon' so much that elders whose household members are pursuing it, may have their qualifications to serve called into question (BOE letter, 8/15/09).

Every loyal JW is able to asses their own situation and ascertain whether particular advice, recommendations or timely warning applies to them.

As regards elders whose household members pursue higher education, well this all depends on the circumstances of course, hence the "may". Of course if an elder's children are baptized and pursuing higher education, are never seen out in field service or partaking in any other theocratic activity, this indicates that the father has not been presiding over his household in a fine manner as regards "putting the Kingdom first" since his baptized children are evidently putting a worldly career first. I have known an elder whose son went to university while living at home and at the same time put Kingdom interests first in his life. Even closer to home, my own husband, a min. servant at the time (he is my ex now) started going to college for an engineering degree at the insistence of my mother (who is a loyal JW) and two years into his studies was being trained to be an elder. It's all about the attitude, as always 

[Evacuated]

Don't you see all these suggestions of sinister, mind-control techniques practised by clandestine Jehovah's Witnesses as a sophisticated version of Gen 3:1-5?

And couldn't we apply the principles of control as described on  http://changingminds.org pages to just about any social group to a greater or lesser degree? Just substitute their experiences and relevant characteristics for those of terrorists in the way in @AnnOMaly has done with Jehovah's Witnesses. (maybe an excercise for one of the wits among us to apply it to the Women's Institute, or the Woodcraft Folk).

It looks like it's actually a description of the way humans behave in groups.

It seems to me that nobody really understands why Jehovah's Witnesses do what they do unless they actually are active and happy Witnesses.

[Anna]

4 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It seems to me that nobody really understands why Jehovah's Witnesses do what they do unless they actually are active and happy Witnesses.

There.You've hit the nail on the head.

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Well I guess Ann, you don't view the Bible as authority from God, many do however.

Indeed, many do ... and one doesn't have to be a JW to do so.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

That is why I said most.

Still a sweeping statement.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

One family in my congregation left because "they wanted to take a break". Nobody pursued them or tried to coerce them to come back. And the other was a former Catholic, who left JW upon finding out about the pedophilia scandal (Panorama). Nobody pursued or tried to coerce her to come back either. am not making any of this up because I knew both sets of people very well, including what happened after they left.

'Nobody'? How do you know? Did you shadow them? Eavesdrop their conversations with other congregants, or during shepherding calls? Naturally, your observations in your own congregation may not be representative of other people's personal experiences.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

As regards unacceptable behavior, care to give me some examples of where this is actually not unacceptable in the scripture?

Not wanting to go off topic, but something as innocuous as celebrating a birthday is seen as unacceptable according to the Org's view. However, there is nothing in scripture prohibiting it. Or transfusing blood plasma into one's own body as a medical therapy is considered unacceptable by the Org's standards, but scripture is silent on the matter. If a JW openly did those things, they would be counseled and reprimanded. If the JW did not change his attitude or ways to conform with the Org's viewpoint, he would be cast out of the congregation and shunned by his believing JW family and friends.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Of course if an elder's children are baptized and pursuing higher education, are never seen out in field service or partaking in any other theocratic activity, this indicates that the father has not been presiding over his household in a fine manner as regards "putting the Kingdom first" since his baptized children are evidently putting a worldly career first.

We can see the chain of coercion right here. If an elder's baptized children are pursuing higher ed., they must have reached the age of majority. And yet the father could be sanctioned for any congregational 'slacking' on the part of his adult children while they're at college?

2 hours ago, Anna said:

I have known an elder whose son went to university while living at home and at the same time put Kingdom interests first in his life. Even closer to home, my own husband, a min. servant at the time (he is my ex now) started going to college for an engineering degree at the insistence of my mother (who is a loyal JW) and two years into his studies was being trained to be an elder. It's all about the attitude, as always 

I also have a JW relative who went to university ... and got slammed for it, even though he diligently kept up his 'theocratic activities' in the congregation. I also know several more who were discouraged from going in the first place ('the end is so close,' 'it's a waste of time,' 'you're being disloyal/ lack faith').

Yes it's about attitude - very often fellow JWs' and the Org's attitudes (which have changed back-and-forth) as much as the individual's. Having said that, how many experiences related in the publications or on JWTV put a positive light upon higher education? Seeing as the Org's attitudes about college are nearly always negative (remember the infamous 'shooting yourself in the head' analogy Gerrit Lösch gave once? last year's convention video about little, musically-talented Sergei?) and there is the whole culture of being loyal to 'the slave' and its direction thereby showing loyalty to God, it's little wonder that so many feel manipulated into blocking off that pursuit for themselves or their children.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

5 hours ago, Anna said:

Well I guess Ann, you don't view the Bible as authority from God, many do however.

Indeed, many do ... and one doesn't have to be a JW to do so.

Hahaha, very well, I shall rephrase it: many believe the Bible to be authority from God, but only a few actually believe it enough to change their lives to live by it, even if it is a inconvenience to them. I was actually meaning that I get the impression you are an atheist.

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

'Nobody'? How do you know? Did you shadow them? Eavesdrop their conversations with other congregants, or during shepherding calls?

I know, because I talked to them about it. On top of that there were no shepherding calls, because they declined the offer. You know you can leave the congregation and stop going to meetings any time you want don't you? Usually without any "repercussions" I say usually, because as long as you don't flaunt an outwardly "hedonistic life style" as you call it, and tell everyone at the strip club you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses, then most likely no one will "bother" you. Again, I know quite a number of ex- Witnesses who were never disfellowshipped and who have been living out of wedlock and celebrate Christmas for some time now. The whole point, as I mentioned before, and as I am sure you know, is to keep the Christian congregation clean. Once someone leaves and over time is no longer known as a Witness in the community, keeping the congregation clean is no longer applicable as they are no longer associated with it. A far cry from the claim of "total control" indeed.

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

If an elder's baptized children are pursuing higher ed., they must have reached the age of majority. And yet the father could be sanctioned for any congregational 'slacking' on the part of his adult children while they're at college?

Well this is assuming they are still living under his roof of course, and are a part of his household which he "presides" over. I don't see a chain of coercion here if you believe Jesus's words about putting the Kingdom first, and agree with the Bible's qualifications for elders.

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

it's little wonder that so many feel manipulated into blocking off that pursuit for themselves or their children.

Indeed, it's difficult since the whole of society is geared to self pursuit. In this environment it is not easy to follow Jesus's command: Then he went on to say to all: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself  and pick up his torture stake day after day and keep following me".