1975 was in the past. Are we HONEST about it TODAY?

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Leave signs of prophecy to those that can see the signs and interpret those signs accordingly.

Obviously i am not in group of enough clever people, but what you present with plenty Awake magazines is this: WT Society worked hard in Spiritual Concepts trying to find answer about The End. With the little Help of "worldly people", listed in various Awake magazines, Organization find  way how to support "1975 Concept" (in their's or in your's interpretation, what ever, it doesn't matter to me, at the end of day). 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That’s because you are looking at the Watchtower publications “word for word” when you have to look at them with consistency.

This sound somehow like; all those authors ,of articles and books of WT Society publications, found the way how to wrote all that  material in a Revelation Book symbolism pattern, for only "chosen one" who will understand true meaning. :))

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The truth is in the Watchtower publications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Commenting on this is not recommended  :))) 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Here is what everyone here needs to understand. I will only say it this time. Only the MOST mentally warped person cannot see, if the Watchtower really meant or hinted, Armageddon would arrive in 1975, they would NOT be printing on future prospects about the CONDITIONS OF THIS WORLD!!!!!!

Of course they would.  It's based on the promise of a paradise which is promoted as relief from the conditions of this world. 

The word "hinted" is the word of the day, as JWInsider showed us:

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

• "Millions now living will never die!"  (WT publications: 1918-1925)
• "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things." (WT publication: Awake! 5/22/1969)

These two prophecies are nearly equivalent, and were both made for very similar reasons, although under different circumstances.

I don't know why you just don't accept it for what it is, BTK  You squirm and change the subject when proof is put in front of you.  This is most likely what JWs in general do; along with, ignoring it all together.  God doesn't ignore what His people are up to.  Why should we turn our eye away from the facts?

“Shortly, within our twentieth century, the ‘battle in the day of Jehovah’ will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

Read it as you like, twist it a million different ways.  At the end of the day, Armageddon was projected to come in 1975.   What you are doing well, is assisting in exposing the lies when others refute your claim.  This helps other JWs hopefully see (if they care to open their eyes), the Watchtower's sins.  

Pure Worship of Jehovah – Restored at Last

"In the past, our literature has referred to Christendom as the antitype of apostate Jerusalem. The conditions in unfaithful Jerusalem—including idolatry and widespread corruption—certainly remind us of what is happening in Christendom. However, in recent years our publications, including the one you are now reading, have not taken the type-antitype approach to prophecy except where the Bible provides a clear basis for doing so. Is there a solid Scriptural basis for referring to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem? No.

Consider the following: Jerusalem was at one time a center of pure worship; later, its inhabitants turned apostate. By contrast, Christendom has never practiced pure worship. Right from its inception in the fourth century C.E., Christendom has always taught false doctrine.

In addition, after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, Jehovah restored the city to his favor and it again became the center of true worship. Christendom, on the other hand, has never had God’s favor, and once it is destroyed during the great tribulation, it will never rise again.

In view of the foregoing, what may we conclude? When we examine Bible prophecies that were fulfilled on unfaithful Jerusalem, we may say, ‘This or that reminds us of what we see in Christendom today.’ But there appears to be no Scriptural basis for referring to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem."

 

Not only is the “prophesy” made in the book from 1971, false, but so is the reference to Christendom.  These are two misleading lies.  Only one, they gave a half-hearted attempt to correct.   Is Christendom the only entity to be “destroyed” for teaching false doctrine?  From the very beginning the Wt. has taught false doctrine.  Would God lower His standards concerning truth, to accommodate the sins of His people?  He has never done that, but removed His protective Spirit and allowed affliction to come upon them when they swerved from faithful worship in truth. Deut 11:26-28; Ezek 9:8,10   This is having fulfillment in the “spirit-directed organization”/Beast (Rev 13:1,2) as it struggles to maintain peace inside, while its actions on the worldly front are being are called into question.  How will its judgment be concluded on the spiritual front when Christ judges?  Rev 20:7-10  Will they fair better than Christendom?  To believe that, is pure deception.  2 Thess 2:9-12

The “city of the great King” was Jerusalem, and referred to as Zion.    Matt 5:35; Ps 48:2   The “city” in Revelation that we are to leave, is not Christendom, but where those under the New Covenant/woman/Temple representatives, reside. (Rev 11:1-3; Rev 18:16,18; 13:4)   Jerusalem was guilty of shedding innocent blood.  Matt 23:35  So too, is the wayward “New Jerusalem” turned apostate by a false prophet (Rev 13:11,12,14-17) that directs the "killing" of those who leave its false teachings.  Rev 11:1-3,7,8; 18:24; 17:18; (Rev 1:5); 13:15

“New Jerusalem”/Zion’s “living stones” (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) is restored not through the organization's existence, but through the “faithful” anointed found outside the apostate city/”Sodom”.  Isa 1:25-27; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:3; Zech 4:9,6,12,14; Rev 11:4,3; Rev 3:12; 21:2; Ps 48:8    

 Judgment begins with God’s “House”/dwelling (1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19,20; 2 Cor 6:16) sifting those within it, who obey from those who do not. 1 Pet 4:17-19 Those who remain in the “city”, risk condemnation. Jer 23:14; Lam 4:6; Rom 9:29; Rev 18:4

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, Witness said:

At the end of the day, Armageddon was projected to come in 1975.

You may disagree, but I agree with @BillyTheKid46 on the point that the WTS never actually predicted that Armageddon would come in 1975. You are right that they "projected" it by very strongly implying that the appropriate time period should end within a few months, not years, from 1975. The WTS definitely led people to believe that Armageddon would come in 1975, but this was through a series of misleading and misguided statements. They never predicted outright that Armageddon would come in 1975. As BTK, Space Merchant (and I) have said, they only directly predicted that the end of 6,000 years of man's existence would end within a few months, not years, from 1975.

I recall the most careful readers of the Watchtower making that point clear to others. I even remember several specifics from  a conversation on January 2, 1975 between my father and one of his employees, who was an overly excited elder and recently returned Gilead Student, whose wife had become pregnant on their assignment. I was spending the day in my father's lab, and the brother (who worked afternoons) loudly and proudly announced his excitement about having reached his last year in this wicked system. My father had another employee there, and two graduate students (who did work-study for credit) were also there in the lab. I knew my father was a bit embarrassed for the non-JW onlookers. But he decided to deal with the issue in front of the others because this brother brought it up in front of the others.

I know that my father's opinion on this was very different from the more outspoken people in the congregation, and it was definitely different from our District Overseer and two Circuit Overseers we had in the period from 1972 to 1974. In fact, he got counseled by the District Overseer for adding Matthew 24:36 to a talk he gave at a circuit assembly just before that. My mother took the side of the District and Circuit Overseers, and therefore believed that Armageddon would have to come between 1974 and 1976. She specifically thought it was less likely to happen in 1975 only because most all JWs (in the general opinion around us) believed that this is when it would happen, and it had to happen at a time when we did not think to be it. But I also know that my father was not alone in his "negative thinking" about 1975 and I knew he could defend it well from the publications. My father believed that it could be any time, and thought it just as likely to be 1973 as it would be in 1993. Part of his reason to say this was to convince me to get a High School education, and a job, before I started pioneering. For me, this meant that I had to quit school when I was still 15, but got the GED High School equivalency instead.

Anyway, if you look very closely at all the official statements in the publications surrounding 1975, you can see that there is no prediction of Armageddon in 1975. The problem was the way these statements led people to believe that the end would most likely come either in 1975, or within a matter of months. Usually this was in the context of "What will the 1970's bring?" or "Who will conquer the world in the 1970's?" By the 1980's the prediction about Armageddon itself had become much more clear: that it would come before the end of the century, as you already pointed out.

You are right that the Watchtower publications definitely HINTED at Armageddon coming in 1975. It's easy to say, as Space Merchant said, that we never taught that the end would come in 1975, but we did teach that the end SHOULD be expected to come within a matter of months, not years, from 1975. Therefore it's wrong to say that "nothing of the sort was ever mentioned."

On 9/4/2018 at 1:58 PM, Space Merchant said:

Therefore, I do not see why some people make claim that JWs said the end would come in 1975 when nothing of the sort was ever mentioned

Space Merchant may not know any better,  but for those who do, this is what I mean by dishonesty when it comes to how our teaching on the subject is defended.

[JW Insider]

Don't remember if this Watchtower discussion was added to the topic, but this is one of the major ones that explains the point about what should be expected to happen within months, not years, from 1975:

You don't need the Watchtower Library because it's on jw.org:

Remember that it's not specifically about Armageddon, but about the end of 6,000 years. But we need to pay more than the usual attention to how even THAT date, the date ending the 6,000 years since since Adam/Eve is supposed to drive lively discussions among "serious students of the Bible." It is "such an important date." No matter what it stands for, it should answer the question as to "why are we looking forward to 1975."

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1968602

Why are you looking forward to 1975?

WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. . . . The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion. . . .

How do we know their calculations are correct? . . .  Does the one Book that can be implicitly trusted for its truthful historical accuracy, namely, the Inspired Word of Jehovah, the Holy Bible, give support and credence to such a conclusion?

. . . Already with the help supplied by the Bible we have accurately measured back from the spring of this year 1968 C.E. to the spring of 1513 B.C.E., a total of 3,480 years. With the continued faithful memory and accurate historical record of Jehovah’s Holy Word we can penetrate even deeper into the past . . .

Since the affliction of Israel ended in 1513 B.C.E., it must have begun in 1913 [B.C.E.], 400 years earlier. . . .

It is now only a matter of adding up the years of a few generations to date the Flood correctly. The figures are given in Genesis, chapters 11 and 12 . . . Adding this figure 1,656 to 2,370 gives 4026 B.C.E., the Gregorian calendar year in which Adam was created.

Thus, through a careful independent study by dedicated Bible scholars who have pursued the subject for a number of years, and who have not blindly followed some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, we have arrived at a date for Adam’s creation that is 22 years more distant in the past than Ussher’s figure. This means time is running out two decades sooner than traditional chronology anticipates.

. . . of what benefit is this information to us today? Is it not all dead history, as uninteresting and profitless . . .

Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. . . .

It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.

One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!

³⁶ Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active?

One might wonder how persons were then "toying with the words of Jesus" in a way that drew away from the idea that 1975 proved that the end of this system was rapidly coming to its violent end. In other words, all this talk of 1975 somehow proved that Armageddon was rapidly coming. Perhaps persons were "toying with" the words of Jesus in the way that someone might be "toying with" immoraility?

[Witness]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Anyway, if you look very closely at all the official statements in the publications surrounding 1975, you can see that there is no prediction of Armageddon in 1975. The problem was the way these statements led people to believe that the end would most likely come either in 1975, or within a matter of months. Usually this was in the context of "What will the 1970's bring?" or "Who will conquer the world in the 1970's?" By the 1980's the prediction about Armageddon itself had become much more clear: that it would come before the end of the century, as you already pointed out.

You are right that the Watchtower publications definitely HINTED at Armageddon coming in 1975. It's easy to say, as Space Merchant said, that we never taught that the end would come in 1975, but we did teach that the end SHOULD be expected to come within a matter of months, not years, from 1975. Therefore it's wrong to say that "nothing of the sort was ever mentioned."

I agree with you.  And yes, they were very clever in their wording, and when it failed the congregants were blamed for anticipating the end to come in 1975.  This is oppression and loud deceit, no matter how it is presented.   When I wanted to become a JW, I told my Catholic father of my plan, and he became very angry.  He immediately related the story of a farmer and his family, whose tractor implements he frequently worked on.  He was outraged that this family sold their property and all goods with it; only to be found without the ability to support the family after the passing of 1975.  The world saw the proclamation through newspaper articles, and from JWs they may have come in contact with.  The world was aware of the effect that it had on them. 

Can we make a suggestive statement without getting directly to the point? People do it all the time, and usually the listener gets the picture.   In the WT leader’s hearts, was the date of 1975 for Armageddon.  In order for them to save face in case it failed (which has helped not at all to those who realize their strategy), they had to devise, as you somewhat implied, a dishonest way to go about it.  Satan did the same thing with Eve. 

What is very sad is that the leaders get away with this deception by twisting the results to reflect on the sheep as guilty ones.    Down to this day, as we’ve seen in a few comments, JWs hold WT leaders in high esteem, parroting what they have been told by the leaders, concerning the date.  BTK is one of them, when in his heart he certainly must know what motivated the hints they dropped, surrounding 1975.  Why is the argument made that they never said directly, a date, if not to defend the guilty ones?  How can an organization claim to follow God's laws when the leaders are full of deceit?  Amos 2:4-5

The effect of this on God’s people is never excused by Him. He will not clear the oppressors of guilt, as they have for themselves. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

f you honestly believe this, then you have to agree the deception and false presentation you and ?Winsider have put forward here. If you believe the Watchtower is evil to that end, by not having the capability of reading people's minds like sorcerers then you have to agree you are a false prophet. Whatever you think the Watchtower is, then believe what you personally are threefold.

For about a year I have been trying to figure out how you think, Billy ... whenever you come up with one of your arrogant, condescending, agenda driven posts, and I believe the idea just occurred to me with this last post of yours.

The last time I saw such lack of reasoning ability, and lack of logical thinking and such immature petulance was in Elementary School, in the Third Grade.

With this last post of yours the puzzle is complete.

As smart and as educated as you obviously are ... it is also painfully obvious you never grew up.

My condolences.

 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Every statement you make, Billy, proves my working theory about what you are all about..

You are your own worst advocate.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, if the Watchtower is taking into account future events by secular experts, that's exactly what they are doing.

Ohh, sorry then. I thought how "insightful expertise" and source of wisdom for leading Organization was "empowered" by holy spirit :))

 

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Making it known to the public how secular experts believe the world will deteriorate.

When you say "public" you specifically  mean on JW Community ? Because "this public" was the first who had needed to be convinced and believed in 1975 end, and then with such zealous faith to present the message of end to another "public" aka worldly people. 

Secular experts believe in the same stuff  today too. JW members believe in the same stuff today too. 

7 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If you compare 1975 with 2019, can you honestly say the world has stayed the same?

I can do compare because i was stayed alive until 1975 ... and until 2019. Generation of 1914 can not compare nothing, i guess.  

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!

One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34)

I the same time teaching was: This "generation" (of 1914) will not pass away - but Kingdom will rule Over the Earth instead satan's worldly system.

Well, we can ask now: About what "generation" Jesus speaking? And more important - about what "generation" WT Society speaking?

1) About "generation" who will see end of 6000 years of humankind?

2) Or about "generation" who will see the end of wicked system and establishing of Kingdom rule as New Government on Earth?

Revision of history? Or almost all JW of those period misunderstand "generation" issue. Do we have "overlapping generations"? One generation who saw 1914 events who overlap with generation who saw end of 6000 years of human history ? .......and again overlap with  ...................... with overlapping generation of today?  :))

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If it doesn't matter to you one way or another, then why argue about it. That makes less sense.

intellectual gymnastic :))

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Regardless of how you want to distort the narrative,

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The only ones distorting that narrative are mentally unstable people that includes, ?Winisder, James, ComfortMypeople, and Anna in this forum.

Do you want to say how i am mentally unstable, too ? :)) ... so, listed name of people are not the Only Ones? :))

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The point that you are shying away from, and the question was? HAS HUMANITY STAYED THE SAME FROM 1975 TO 2019? Or has it deteriorated from those 2 points in time.

According to Science and Experts on various fields on Human, cells of every organism changed everyday. Changing are at various cycles, from every day (or shorter) to every few years. Looking on your question in that way, Human Not Stayed the Same, all has been Changed. But nature of people Stayed as before, there was good and bad as before.

Also, Events you mentioned are Cyclical. So, that Stayed as was Before too. Quantity of Events? I don't know. Written History is too short to provide us information, and Humankind have no Statistic about all Events of any Sort (for example people have no records about how much rain failed before 756 years in land now called North Texas?).     

Deteriorated? If you ask, such question, people who are in food shortage, conditions are bad. If you ask the same, people whose ancestors were slaves to their masters, perhaps it is better now. 

[Witness]

15 hours ago, Witness said:

And yes, they were very clever in their wording, and when it failed the congregants were blamed for anticipating the end to come in 1975.  This is oppression and loud deceit, no matter how it is presented. 

 

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If you honestly believe this, then you have to agree the deception and false presentation you and ?Winsider have put forward here.

"Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity?...Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3) 

"It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bibles warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date." (Watchtower, July 15, 1976, p. 440)

15 hours ago, Witness said:

 In the WT leader’s hearts, was the date of 1975 for Armageddon.  In order for them to save face in case it failed (which has helped not at all to those who realize their strategy), they had to devise, as you somewhat implied, a dishonest way to go about it.  Satan did the same thing with Eve. 

 

 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes." (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644)