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Space Merchant -
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59 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

@JohnButler

That would be more accurate. It only makes sense to opposers, not sensible Christians interested in knowing God with biblical truth. That’s why I suggest you first learn to understand scripture before your personal opinion can at least be seen as an opinion.

This way, you will understand the responsibility of spiritually mature men that follow scripture as indicated by scripture under the direction of Christ.

The FACT that you, witness, Srecko and many others here keep implying about the 8 GB is not just obtuse but continues to be inaccurate. Since I agree we are off topic, then DON’T attempt to pursue this ignorance on every topic.

That way, Ryan can understand, being well dressed can be seen as setting someone apart from common society. Find harm or fault with that, aside through malicious ignorance.

 

 

Yes but maybe there are different forms of being 'well dressed'.  Are you a well dressed cowboy Billy ? 

I actually knew a brother that would wear a 'bootlace tie' complete with the bulls head in silver, to the meetings. He had lived in America for some time so don't know if it ok in some KH's over there. This brother wore a lovely jacket with shaping over the shoulders too. Real Western ranch style i would think, but it honestly looked really smart.  Was it appropriate ?  It's not for me to judge, but it looked smart and tidy and modest. And it was an individual choice which i think congregants should be allowed to make. 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes but maybe there are different forms of being 'well dressed'.  Are you a well dressed cowboy Billy ? 

I actually knew a brother that would wear a 'bootlace tie' complete with the bulls head in silver, to the meetings. He had lived in America for some time so don't know if it ok in some KH's over there. This brother wore a lovely jacket with shaping over the shoulders too. Real Western ranch style i would think, but it honestly looked really smart.  Was it appropriate ?  It's not for me to judge, but it looked smart and tidy and modest. And it was an individual choice which i think congregants should be allowed to make. 

The day I die, I won’t die without them like Doc Halliday. The difference is not clothing. It’s the presentation.

If someone goes out of their way to buy $600.00 dollar suit when a $200.00 suit will do just fine, then apply scripture. If a woman is going to spend thousands to look their best, then apply scripture. Rich or poor, it’s the presentation to be clean and well dressed.

No one is going to give someone serious credibility seeing a preacher with shorts, or shirtless. How about preaching in your underwear. What good is it to excite and preach at the same time?

There are many variables in scripture that doesn’t approach clothing directly like RYAN is attempting to convey, but indirectly with your outer appearance and cleanliness.

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

No needs to go overboard, but be presentable. When did anyone see Jesus dirty in his ministry.

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On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

We seem to have a misunderstanding. i didn't mean the children were making up (pretending)  the numbers.

Did you not read your original comment, Butler?

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I meant that the number of JW's included lots of young children. So the quantity of young children putting in 'Report slips' each month, boosts the total number of JW's. 

But your comments were more direct in the group making up numbers. You did the same thing a few months ago when the facts came from those who did the demographics regarding anything that is put in numeral form and or some form of statistic and or percentage.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The 8.58 million could be half adult, half children.  And many of those children are forced to attend meetings and forced to go on the 'ministry work'.  

And your point? The number of adherents is the numerical count of those professing the faith. Some demographics take it a step further when it comes to sex, age, race, location, nationality etc.

For example, I can say 34% of the United Kingdom supports Theresa May, while 66% do not support her. The demographics is focused on people who live in the United Kingdom, but if done in depth, for instance, 5% UK Caucasian/Black/Asian/Arab/etc.  either supports or is against Theresa May, a bigger divide if they throw in Christians/Muslims/Atheists/other faiths into the mix as well as a percentage of folks who neither support/or is against.

You once said by your word that you do not know, you do not judge. How are you so sure that this "many" are forced? Granted with how Christendom as been going as the years go by, determining on something that is baseless does not bring forth this "many" as you claim, granted, if you look into the statistics of the number of adherents.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the Memorial attendance, JW's are told to bring as many people to it as possible. Some of those attending will never go back into a Kingdom hall again. JW's go to people's homes to pick them up and take them to the Kingdom Hall, then take them home again afterward. But most JW's only do that for the one occasion, the Memorial, not on a regular basis. 

Actually, according to what I had been in discussion about during the Assasnge situation, some adherents do return and either become and or convert, your own experience does not define the multitude of others who are of that faith.

They do this because like any event of this nature, they make arrangements. Even after their celebration, some of them continue to offer themselves in terms of riding the person to church and back. This is something ridiculously common in all faiths, mainly when it comes to people with limitations who rely on others of said community to go somewhere or to do something. The ability to help others regarding such may be alien to you, but not to anyone else, therefore, those who take up said responsibility, it is indeed on a regular basis, granted of how common this practice is towards aiding a fellow man.

An example, in the mid-1980s, my cousin's girlfriend's father use to carried a handicap man on his back (piggyback ride as you call it) from one point to another, granted the aid the disabled man needed was within proximity of his home, he still carried the man around whenever he is needed, granted in those days in a country like that, there is an abundance of free time. He kept doing this on a regular basis until the disabled man grew very sickly and pass away just a year later. All in all, culture wise, the community was very close, such examples and stories were passed down to younger ones, who still live on the islands, and to those that moved away, sometimes uncles and aunts from the islands would visit and retell such events for several reasons, one of them to ensure that how this were have not ceased to nothing more than a broken mere memory, but rather, to pass on an example.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I was involved in all of this for many years. I am talking from personal experience, not from just reading what other people write. 

But your involvement does not define the experience by others in Africa, in America, Asia, etc. You were most likely, obviously, secluded to one or two JW churches; your past comments you were totally ignorant and unaare of situations unfolding in another JW church with little information you had provided. That is, unless, somehow you cracked the code into being omnipresent somehow, being in all churches at once and knowing the experiences of others firsthand vs. being secluded to just a handful of folks in your dwelling place in the EU.

Your remark is problematic when the demographics is before you, the same ones you deemed as lies when the evidence to such puts shame to your response then, and clearly now.

Unless you got some Intel on a JW church or two that you've been in in the Congo or something, than you can speak, but you having been limited to but a few churches within the UK alone doesn't bear any fruit.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The children are made to suffer mentally. Forced by parents to do things which the children are not ready to do. Hence why so many leave the JW Org as soon as that can. It does not unite families it divides them. 

So you have proof of this? OF every child in every JW church suffering? If that is the case, you may as well get them to burn any and every Bible there is, granted that is what people seem to be doing nowadays.

A child who is Christian, yes they are taught by their parents at some point, but they can make the truth of the Bible their own by their decision as they get older.

Your other statements is baseless because you negate all and everything to your own experience, as with a handful of others vs. those who made the Bible their own.

There is but a few people who leave a religion, not in droves, but small pockets and handfuls.

If you say many people leave that faith, why on God's green earth did they increase? Why are people going back even after their event? Clearly  if you are going to say something, you have to back it up.

I will tell you this: The Bible itself can make and break relationships, especially the more you read and find out what God's Word is all about. A few days ago, Easter Day, I made the truth known to many Christians, and best believe they were triggered and out for blood when the truth about Easter was talked about, others made this truth known to friends and family, and said truth caused a divide: Those for Jesus, and those of the other Jesus, who is but a mask and really Eostre.

When a truth about the Bible is spoken, regardless of who made it known, it will always cause a divide, even among family, reasons why Jesus' word is to be taken seriously when it is often said a household can be divided.

That being said, take your blame with the Bible, if it irks you this much if you think it commits to suffering.

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On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:35 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

The day I die, I won’t die without them like Doc Halliday. The difference is not clothing. It’s the presentation.

 

If someone goes out of their way to buy $600.00 dollar suit when a $200.00 suit will do just fine, then apply scripture. If a woman is going to spend thousands to look their best, then apply scripture. Rich or poor, it’s the presentation to be clean and well dressed.

 

No one is going to give someone serious credibility seeing a preacher with shorts, or shirtless. How about preaching in your underwear. What good is it to excite and preach at the same time?

 

There are many variables in scripture that doesn’t approach clothing directly like RYAN is attempting to convey, but indirectly with your outer appearance and cleanliness.

 

 

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

No needs to go overboard, but be presentable. When did anyone see Jesus dirty in his ministry.

The apostle John certainly didn't dress to the nines, sand Jesus stripped down to his underwear when he washed the disciples feet.

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@Space Merchant Quote "That being said, take your blame with the Bible, if it irks you this much if you think it commits to suffering."

The Bible does not cause suffering, the misuse of it does. The GB leaders of the JW Org and the Elders of that Org cause suffering. The parents that demand their children go and preach also cause suffering mentally and emotionally to their children. 

Jesus sent out his followers to preach, but they were not children. Can you find me a scripture that says Jesus sent out children to preach ? 

As for the JW Org increasing, it seems to be only in less educated lands. In more educated and more open lands where information is freely available there seems to be a decrease. 

The majority of growth is coming from developing countries in Africa and South America. In 2016, 70% of the increase in average publishers came from just 7 countries, Angola 10k, Brazil 21k, Ecuador 3k, Ghana 4k, Mexico 11k, Rep. of Congo 34k and Nigeria 3k. On the other hand, developed countries with the highest level of wealth, education and internet access to information regarding Watchtower have little to no growth. In 2016, many of these countries reported less publishers than previous year peaks, including Britain, Australia, Germany, Italy, USA, Canada and Japan.

 

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Can you find me a scripture that says Jesus sent out children to preach ? 

Are you seriously asking such an ill-informed question? Or are you just quoting something that you have read without thinking about what this demonstrates?

Children have a lot more spontaneous sense than many adults, including whoever formulated such a question as this. Indeed, contrary to those who would seek to muzzle them, such children have the approval of both Jehovah and His Glorious Son, Jesus Christ as recorded at:

Ps 8:2: "Out of the mouths of children and infants you have established strength      and

Matt.21:15-16:"When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys who were shouting in the temple, “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did you never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of children and infants, you have brought forth praise’?”

 

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6 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

The apostle John certainly didn't dress to the nines, sand Jesus stripped down to his underwear when he washed the disciples feet.

The day you decide to see fundamentals correctly, you'll see what I mean about underwear stands for, wearing tight clothing.

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14 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Are you seriously asking such an ill-informed question? Or are you just quoting something that you have read without thinking about what this demonstrates?

Children have a lot more spontaneous sense than many adults, including whoever formulated such a question as this. Indeed, contrary to those who would seek to muzzle them, such children have the approval of both Jehovah and His Glorious Son, Jesus Christ as recorded at:

Ps 8:2: "Out of the mouths of children and infants you have established strength      and

Matt.21:15-16:"When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys who were shouting in the temple, “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did you never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of children and infants, you have brought forth praise’?”

 

That is not Jesus actually sending out children to preach from house to house in the way that JW's do it. 

'the boys who were shouting in the temple'. 

So where is a scripture that says Jesus sent out children into the house to house ministry ? 

We can all find scripture and then make it serve our purpose. The GB and the Writing Department do it all the time. But it does not make it right. 

Many children hate the ministry work and they also hate having to take literature into school to give to the teachers etc. 

A few may of course find it fun, buy many hate it. 

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6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

A few may of course find it fun, buy many hate it. 

Those who hate sharing Jehovah's word with others often end up hating those who love to do it.

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Those who hate sharing Jehovah's word with others often end up hating those who love to do it.

Possibly, but many young children are just not ready to be that 'brave', to speak up. Many have not made the personal relationship with God that is needed. 

And maybe some of them do not know if what they are told to say is actually true. 

After all the JW ministry is about doing as you are told isn't it ? A JW is not allowed to go to the doors with their own opinion, they must only go to the doors with the message that are told to give, some of which has proven to be untrue.

When a JW learns that the message keeps being changed then even a sensible adult will wonder if any of the JW teaching is true. So who can blame a child that is not convinced by the JW Org.

 

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That depends how foolish the thought of allowing children to learn door to door ministry is to people that don’t understand spiritual growth.

I believe Jesus was 12 when he sat at the temple. Luke 2:41-52 Was Jesus knocking on doors? No, but he was certainly maturing spiritually from the experience.

John was a young man if memory serves.

john.jpg

The fundamentals of preaching work regardless of style and application are meant to teach children to receive the benefits of gaining spiritual maturity.

I believe Proverbs makes the best case.

Proverbs 22:6 New International Version (NIV)

Start children off on the way they should go,
    and even when they are old they will not turn from it.

What is door to door preaching if not a stepping stone to spiritual maturity?

Unfortunately, those that had that path of knowledge descend or reverted backed to become a spiritual child.

Hebrews 6:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[

    Hello guest!
] and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites,[
    Hello guest!
]
the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 19:13-14 New International Version (NIV)

The Little Children and Jesus

13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Luke 9:47-48 New International Version (NIV)

47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.”

Therefore, those that make a childish claim is unstainable on its own weight.

1 Corinthians 14:20 New International Version (NIV)

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

 

Since the same can be said, show in scripture where Jesus didn’t use Children? Door to Door ministry is a building block to spiritual maturity by allowing young ones to master their spiritual resolve just like the Apostle themselves learned by Christ as a Great Teacher.

Another view that is NOT supported in scripture is the view “witness” holds about Christianity and unity within. Even though I believe witness admitted to video conferencing which is in effect holding membership within its application. I wonder who the Head of that membership is that directs such members in order to criticize and scrutinize them just like witness does with the GB at every turn.

A good example is the bylaws seen within OTHER organizations

Scriptural basis of Membership

1Corinthians 12:12-27, Romans 12:3-8; Ephesians 4:11-16
‘Membership’ is a Christian word that has now been used by other organisations. Christians are described as Members of the Body of Christ. This picture is used to show how we need one another. The Head (Jesus) supplies much of his life to us through the prayer, fellowship and ministry of other Members. There is nothing in the New Testament that supports the idea of a solitary Christian life. It’s always assumed that Christians live in community. The epistles are mostly written to Churches and contain much teaching about their life together. Over 50 times the phrase ‘one another’ or something similar is used (e.g. ‘love one another’)

Membership Standards (Responsibilities and Commitments)

It is glorious privilege to be a Member of the Church, of which Jesus said: “I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell (death) shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). The Church is established by Jesus Christ Himself as His governmental Assembly in the earth. We represent Him both individually and collectively as a Church. We are called to bear witness to Him and His Gospel and be a demonstration of the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 3:10). Therefore we are required to walk worthy of the high calling by which we are called (Eph 4:1).
Church Members are a group of people who love God and want to unite in love and faith with each other in order to be a shining WITNESS to the world of the love and power of Jesus Christ

 

How can someone with animosity and cultural disdain, sowing discourse be part of anything to do with scripture? How can such a senseless person call themselves anointed? That is making a mockery of scripture.

Can it be any different by those that promote controversial commentaries to see what opinion other people have?

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On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

he Bible does not cause suffering, the misuse of it does.

Exactly, however, going about following what the Scriptures teaches and not misusing it you deemed before as negative.

On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The GB leaders of the JW Org and the Elders of that Org cause suffering.

If the Bible tells them to put something into practice, clearly they wouldn't go around it. Restorationist would not be caught dead going around Scripture, and on the other side of the spectrum, you have people who make claim they do not follow Scripture, but when they do, it is a problem.

On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The parents that demand their children go and preach also cause suffering mentally and emotionally to their children. 

Now that is a weak excuse. Children obey their parents. The Bible makes that clear, very clear in Ephesians and I believe Jesus had made some points himself.

Preaching or doing missionary work does not cause suffering and mental and emotional harm, what does is how parents and or guardians go about things with their children.

I find this remark of yours absurd because if you claim the Bible does not cause suffering, somehow missionary work and importance of the commission in which Jesus commanded is mentally harming children.

Perhaps a word with the Christ would do you some justice, but you will be at the receiving end.

Surely you are a parent.

That being said, your remark doesn't define all Jehovah's Witnesses children, you base the experience perhaps in your church and it's area.

On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the JW Org increasing,

But you just said before and alluded to them decreasing? Mental Gymnastics or willful ignorance? The facts outweighs the thoughts of the disdainful one. I even said it before, give it a few months, Christian minorities, especially Restorationist will increase.

On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

it seems to be only in less educated lands. In more educated and more open lands where information is freely available there seems to be a decrease. 

How do you know the areas such as these is uneducated?

On 5/3/2019 at 2:42 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The majority of growth is coming from developing countries in Africa and South America. In 2016, 70% of the increase in average publishers came from just 7 countries, Angola 10k, Brazil 21k, Ecuador 3k, Ghana 4k, Mexico 11k, Rep. of Congo 34k and Nigeria 3k. On the other hand, developed countries with the highest level of wealth, education and internet access to information regarding Watchtower have little to no growth. In 2016, many of these countries reported less publishers than previous year peaks, including Britain, Australia, Germany, Italy, USA, Canada and Japan.

I found your source: 

    Hello guest!
 Mark also pointed out as to where, according to Mark's citation. Also you may want to look at the other comments besides focusing on a one person.

That being said, you had the chance to use recent sources also, how not have you taken chance in this regard is quite obvious.

You are pulling from a source that dates back to 2016 whereas they just got to 8.13 adherents. 2017 they bumped up to 8.24, 8.36 in 2018, in the same year around 8.45. Right out of the gate for 2019 they're at 8.58. You may want to get an update on said source instead of going back a few years to make claim to something recent. I'd like to add that with the internet and other forms of media, they have been able to minister to an even bigger number, more over, what they minister, others have taken said information and indirectly proclaim it to others, so that is and may be the explanation of their growth as a Christian minority.

Another factor I'd like to day is that their Trinity believing counterparts have been making claim that they are exactly the same Restoration as JWs and prevent members from even speaking with them. Reasons why, they know how easily they can loose members to JWs because of the whole Trinitarianism teaching. Think of it as this way, this group are JWs who believe in the Trinity, claim to be exactly like JWs to prevent loose of members to a minority. A hint, they have like 19.8-20.7 followers.

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On 5/3/2019 at 2:01 PM, Matthew9969 said:

The apostle John certainly didn't dress to the nines, sand Jesus stripped down to his underwear when he washed the disciples feet.

His underwear? What? I do hope you mean his undergarments and not latter being literal. Do not make that same mistake Butler did. 

 

That being said, Jesus did in order teach humility to his disciples. Such a thing that he has done shocked them, for a task was done by a servant/slave, but it was Jesus, the one of whom they followed, did the washing.

Image

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WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "UNDERWEAR" AND "UNDERGARMENTS"?

Was it customary for Jews in Jesus'  time to wear underwear AND undergarments>

Were there different styles of robes worn as "outer garments".

I used to go to the Mercer Road Congregation near Stone Mountain, Georgia, near Atlanta Georgia, which at that time was the world headquarters of the Klu Klux Klan, and they wore white sheets, and their governing body, The Grand Dragon, and his helpers, the Lounge Lizards, wore white fitted sheets.

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On 5/7/2019 at 4:35 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Space Merchant Nice to know you are thinking of me :) 

Well anyone with a strong lack of textual criticism and textual basis not only jarrs the eyes, but the mind. In this regard, you are can can be used as an example fairly easily when ignorance of Scriptural forms and grammar is painfully present.

You said it best regarding Spiritual Wisdom, perhaps take your own advice and put this into application.

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On 5/8/2019 at 1:29 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "UNDERWEAR" AND "UNDERGARMENTS"?

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE when it comes to the notion of Scripture. But the difference is very very little like a speck of dust to the modern English speaking man and or other.

On 5/8/2019 at 1:29 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Was it customary for Jews in Jesus'  time to wear underwear AND undergarments>

What?

On 5/8/2019 at 1:29 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Were there different styles of robes worn as "outer garments".

They didn't have anything fancy, that is for sure, unless you are the type to be a bit extra, like the leader of the Jews in that time and or rulers, lords, etc.

On 5/8/2019 at 1:29 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I used to go to the Mercer Road Congregation near Stone Mountain, Georgia, near Atlanta Georgia, which at that time was the world headquarters of the Klu Klux Klan, and they wore white sheets, and their governing body, The Grand Dragon, and his helpers, the Lounge Lizards, wore white fitted sheets.

Well that is the things of today in your regard. The time of the Christ and people of that age, things were different.

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I had a long conversation with Caleb and Sophia, today about THEIR Creator, Tight Pants Tony, and Caleb was telling me how, in the 1950's his father knew TPT, before he went to Vietnam as an Army medic, and got some insight as to why Bro. Anthony has such an obsession about Brothers wearing tight pants.

2019-06-07_132052.jpg

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28 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JTR Jr Are you really that bored today ?  Although I'm a bit concerned about this comment of yours. Are you suggesting that TPT has thoughts of a sinful nature ? :)

Yesterday I spent all day making a chicken coop and chicken run (apologies to Mel Gibson) door and door frame in my side yard with the frame posts set in concrete, with concrete pedestals which I am calling "STALAG 17", for my wife's new herd of chickens ( They are "Free Range Chickens", which you have no doubt heard about .. from the time that herds of billions of chickens used to roam the Ohio Valley, here in the United States, and Cave Men used to ride giant lizards to round them up, many times driving them off of cliffs to the precipices below, which  only worked infrequently, as they can fly if it's mostly down,  chicken down being a whole other subject, as they use it to fill military flight jackets, which raises the prices so that even down is up ... where was I ... oh yeah ... am I bored today ... for today it is raining and my neighbors are collecting animals (I already have mine, being unconcerned about the extinction of white rhinoceroses, as long as there are chickens, which will never go extinct because they are delicious, and you cannot kill a whole Rhino for one or two sandwiches.

And as far as TPT having "sinful thoughts", as everone knows, the GB do not HAVE sinful thoughts, I am sure NOTHING could be further from the truth, as his perspective is quite different.

2019-06-07_131925.jpg

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