JW Dress Rules

[Witness]

JW number facts:

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php

[TrueTomHarley]

“American studies show that Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest turnover of any religion,¹ as supported by Watchtower figures presented in this section.”

Easily compensated for by the high participation rate of those who stick. After all, the members of a great many denominations may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did?

 

 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

adherent

/ədˈhɪər(ə)nt/

noun

plural noun: adherents

1. someone who supports a particular party, person, or set of ideas.

@Space Merchant I like your word 'adherents'. JW's do support their GB and it's JW Org. Unfortunately they do not serve God through Jesus Christ. 

Now these numbers you seem to love so much are made up of 3 year old children and upwards. Remember all they have to do is get mummy or daddy to put in a 'report slip' in their name, and they become a 'publisher'.  The amount of JW's is counted by the amount of publishers. A person can be a 'publisher' by putting in a report slip with as little as 30 minutes per month on it. 

So if you have a family of 7 people, that is dad, mum, and 5 children aged from 3 years old upward, you can get 7 report slips per month, even if the younger children are forced to do the 'ministry work' by the parents. So don't get so excited about numbers SM, because they mean nothing. 

As for the clothing comment, um, I think you are unwell SM and need a rest. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“American studies show that Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest turnover of any religion,¹ as supported by Watchtower figures presented in this section.”

Easily compensated for by the high participation rate of those who stick. After all, the members of a great many denominations may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did?

 

 

 

 

Um, Tom, what high participation rate ?  When a person can submit a 'Report slip' for 30 minutes per month. 

When 3 year olds can have 'Report slips' put in for them. 

When children are forced to go on the ministry and then leave the Org asap when they are of age. 

Don't be blinded by numbers Tom, just like SM.  

And it seems the increases are in countries of people with a lower education level. In higher educated countries, or countries where information is more freely available, people are leaving the JW Org. 

Temptation levels are the same earthwide, the devil doesn't just tempt people in higher educated countries. So maybe it's because people in higher educated countries or countries where info is more freely available do more research into the GB and it's Org and also ask more questions and get disturbing answers. 

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Space Merchant I like your word 'adherents'. JW's do support their GB and it's JW Org. Unfortunately they do not serve God through Jesus Christ. 

I'm going by religious statistic as I had before because you claim the latter was committing slander in their numbers. There is also many sources that even state the same thing, so those numbers are indeed true. If you lack spiritual wisdom, how are you so sure? Because last I was here before the whole Assange situation, you said you are seeking truth, at least be reasonable and honest.

Moreover, the word "adherents" was coined by said source:

The group reports a worldwide membership of approximately 8.58 million adherents involved in evangelism and an annual Memorial attendance of over 20 million.

I recall telling you in your response that the numbers are only going up whereas you said it was going down, which was false.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now these numbers you seem to love so much are made up of 3 year old children and upwards.

There you go slandering again. Can you prove that the numbers were made up if one and several other sources says otherwise? The pews website was not made by children, nor was Wikipedia, nor was other Christian statistics websites.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Remember all they have to do is get mummy or daddy to put in a 'report slip' in their name, and they become a 'publisher'.

I am not talking about JWs bringing up the numbers, I am, and my sources re of those who actually count statistics in adherents/members numbers of all Christian denominations, if fact, all rebellious denominations.

Also it is called Demographics

Definition - statistical data relating to the population and particular groups within it.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The amount of JW's is counted by the amount of publishers. A person can be a 'publisher' by putting in a report slip with as little as 30 minutes per month on it. 

So where does that leave the pews and other sources when coming up with the numbers of religious demographics of said faith? They do the same thing with us Unitarians, although they bunch us all together, they also segregate the denominations and show the numbers.

How is this alien to you, Butler?

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So if you have a family of 7 people, that is dad, mum, and 5 children aged from 3 years old upward, you can get 7 report slips per month, even if the younger children are forced to do the 'ministry work' by the parents.

The irrelevancy is quite jarring to the eyes.Especially when the evidence is before us in this sense. Those who do the demographics, allow me to show you of what you ignored in the past, at least back then, even JTR gets it.

Here is an example:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

Pretty sure the website(s) were not founded by 3 year olds, show some respect.... Also Ward Cunningham is 69, born in 1949, he isn't 3 either...

https://www.pewresearch.org/about/

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So don't get so excited about numbers SM, because they mean nothing. 

It is not about enticement. You made a claim and I'll quote you: "Wow are they lowering the standards as they are rapidly losing members ? "

This is slander because people who do the statistics says otherwise, therefore, you committed slander to your very teeth.

Numbers do mean something because numbers brings forth truth to claim, as is in this example regarding erroneous claims on your part. I assume that taking in wisdom has been "thrown out the window" in this sense concerning you.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the clothing comment, um, I think you are unwell SM and need a rest. 

Unwell? I concur, this is coming from the man who confuse actions of men with clothing yet wears said clothing of what he made claims against, thus  spinning the wheel of hypocrisy.

Check thyself and your own comments because it is not by means of your unwellness that shows here, but your ignorance.

That being said, when more important matters I was in discussion of regarding critical issues and religious attacks and a list of other things, here we see you still haven't changed one bit.

I linked to you before the pews website, I suggest giving it a look this time.

I'll say it again to you, Butler - Open your eyes because you continue to keep them shut.

[Space Merchant]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“American studies show that Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest turnover of any religion,¹ as supported by Watchtower figures presented in this section.”

Easily compensated for by the high participation rate of those who stick. After all, the members of a great many denominations may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did?

The thing is some people afraid of statistics. This is the case I make with those of mainstream Christendom, for they are afraid of what the demographics show concerning them. They would also go as far as to pain and erroneous picture on Christian minorities.

That being said, if one person says someone's adherents is on a rapid decline and the other says it has increased, with prove to make it up, who is truly in slander? Clearly, someone who swims about in the sea of his or her own hypocrisy.

Other than that, these people are everywhere, all of them of different cultures, hence the different attire (modest). I do not see how blind people get if they cannot see this for themselves.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant Quote  The group reports a worldwide membership of approximately 8.58 million adherents involved in evangelism and an annual Memorial attendance of over 20 million.

 We seem to have a misunderstanding. i didn't mean the children were making up (pretending)  the numbers.

I meant that the number of JW's included lots of young children. So the quantity of young children putting in 'Report slips' each month, boosts the total number of JW's. 

The 8.58 million could be half adult, half children.  And many of those children are forced to attend meetings and forced to go on the 'ministry work'.  

As for the Memorial attendance, JW's are told to bring as many people to it as possible. Some of those attending will never go back into a Kingdom hall again. JW's go to people's homes to pick them up and take them to the Kingdom Hall, then take them home again afterward. But most JW's only do that for the one occasion, the Memorial, not on a regular basis. 

I was involved in all of this for many years. I am talking from personal experience, not from just reading what other people write. 

The children are made to suffer mentally. Forced by parents to do things which the children are not ready to do. Hence why so many leave the JW Org as soon as that can. It does not unite families it divides them. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

7 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That just means, the experience you believe you have is obscured by facts. There are children within the numbers. There’s no dispute on that. There are also baptized publishers as well as unbaptized publishers. What percentage accounts for each of those groups?

Are children forced? That’s just an opinion railed in ignorance. Does that mean a Christian Evangelist Parent taking their children to church are forcing their children? How about Catholic parents that want their children to have some kind of spiritual structure. Are they forcing their children to have something GOOD in their lives? Especially those parents that encourage their children to the priesthood.

Your ideology John is so polluted with your hatred, you and witness should seriously consider professional help.

As for the memorial. Everyone is welcomed to attend the memorial to show appreciation to the one who sacrificed himself so that people like you can taint everything Jesus stood for. Even if they don’t attend a Kingdom Hall. It's open to everyone.

You criticized RYAN in another thread about his deranged views when yours are almost the same. The difference is, he owns those delusional thoughts of atheism and he isn’t afraid to express them. His D’fd regardless of what he tells people that he wasn’t? That he just walked away which is utter nonsense, but it doesn’t matter. Can you do the same to a panel of Elders? Ask your friends JWinsider and James. How about Anna? What does anyone think the answer will be?

@BillyTheKid46 OK Billy let's take what you've just written and try to give you sensible answers, well sensible from my viewpoint, as i know anything I write is not sensible to you.

Quote 'the experience you believe you have is obscured by facts.' So what facts do you have exactly ? Because we have seen posts on here showing young children being baptized and mention of young children as young as 3, putting in 'report slips'. I know personally of families of 7, five children, 2 adults, doing ministry. I also know personally of children that have told me they 'hate' the meetings and 'hate' the ministry, but are made to do it. Of course when they say 'hate' they probably mean strongly dislike but it does show their true feelings. I also know teenagers that have left home to get away from the JW 'way of life' and it has caused distress to both parents and to the teenagers. 

Quote 'Are children forced?' Yes they are, but in a bit if fairness it would also be wrong to leave the children at home whilst parents went to meetings or out on the ministry. However if the child does not want to go then it is force. It becomes more like force when the children are paraded around the streets where their school friends live. Do you honestly think that is showing any kind of love to anyone ? 

Quote 'As for the memorial. Everyone is welcomed to attend the memorial to show appreciation to the one who sacrificed himself so that people like you can taint everything Jesus stood for.' 

I wasn't aware that Jesus sacrificed himself for 8 men to pretend they are the 'faithful and discreet slave' and for those 8 men to tell the Anointed not to contact each other and to keep quiet. I thought Jesus died for all of us to have a 'second chance' but especially for the Anointed. Remembering the scripture about 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' 'saying we will go with you people because we know God is with you'.  I do not see God being with the GB of JW Org. 

As for everyone being welcome at the memorial, yes that is true, but it seems a lot more effort is made to get as many people as possible into a Kingdom hall at that time. I agree that the memorial is important and the more that can 'witness it' the better. But to then use that attendance figure as an 'advertising feature' is a falsehood, as it was only obtained by vast extra effort which only takes place once a year. Many people will gladly accept 'extra fuss' and a free lift to and from the hall, sometimes just because they are lonely and want company. It does not show extra interest in serving God or appreciation for the sacrifice Jesus made. One has to be realistic about these things. 

Your last paragraph mentioning Ryan makes no sense to me. Are you firstly saying that someone said they left the JW Org but you are calling them a liar ? Are you saying they were disfellowshipped but will not admit it ?

Secondly are you also calling me a liar ? Are you trying to pretend I was disfellowshipped ? 

I have mentioned before how I left the JW Org. My ex congregation gave out telephone numbers and email addresses of all Elders. I had a copy of that sheet and i emailed as many Elders that had emails on the sheet.  I also emailed a few brothers to tell them what i was doing and why.  I was then telephoned by one of the elders and asked to attend the Kingdom hall to 'talk it through'. During that meeting at the hall I was asked to sign a printed copy of an email that i had sent. I signed the copy and that was it. When the meeting at the hall started i said I didn't want any prayers or conversation, i just wanted to get the formality over. The Elders were very understanding and it was just a very basic official meeting. The fact that the Elders are not allowed to tell other people that, and that the announcement has to be that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', makes no difference to the truth that i left the Org. Anyone that wishes to call me a liar or thinks that i was dis/fed, are just showing their true colours of selfish thinking. 

As for this 'Your ideology John is so polluted with your hatred ... '

I have no ideology. My mind is open to any ideas and thoughts. I consider all things. If my line of thinking happens to be similar to many people in the earth regarding the Child Abuse within the JW Org that is because many people have considered the same evidence and come to the same conclusions. Similarly the shunning and other matters. 

It would seem you have an ideology concerning the GB and the JW Org. You worship both it seems. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@BillyTheKid46 I said it would be sensible to me and that you would not think it sensible. 

We are both totally off topic and we will never agree on things concerning God or how God should be served through Christ. 

You say that ", JW’s encourage everyone to KNOW God personally by means of Jesus sacrifice" 

But the memorial is just one occasion per year. The rest of the time JW's try to tell people that they can only serve God through the JW Org. Quite a difference i think. 

Where does any of this factor into that equation when people are NOT willing to follow bible principles.

If you truly believe that the GB and it's Org 'follow bible principles' that is your choice. 

However by doing some research and having an open mind I have found differently. 

As for 'rethinking Christianity', do you just mean knuckle down and do as I'm told by the JW Org ? 

Or do you mean, as I am doing, having an open mind and listening to every one that makes comments here and elsewhere ? 

No i haven't found direction yet. But I haven't given up either. I'm a sinner like any other. However i think I will be dead for a long time before the Judgement Day arrives. I'm prepared to be judged for all my faults and mistakes. God is merciful  and forgiving and so is Jesus Christ. 

I am not in opposition to God or Christ, I'm just in opposition to a false religion or a religion that has gone off track. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

59 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

@JohnButler

That would be more accurate. It only makes sense to opposers, not sensible Christians interested in knowing God with biblical truth. That’s why I suggest you first learn to understand scripture before your personal opinion can at least be seen as an opinion.

This way, you will understand the responsibility of spiritually mature men that follow scripture as indicated by scripture under the direction of Christ.

The FACT that you, witness, Srecko and many others here keep implying about the 8 GB is not just obtuse but continues to be inaccurate. Since I agree we are off topic, then DON’T attempt to pursue this ignorance on every topic.

That way, Ryan can understand, being well dressed can be seen as setting someone apart from common society. Find harm or fault with that, aside through malicious ignorance.

 

 

Yes but maybe there are different forms of being 'well dressed'.  Are you a well dressed cowboy Billy ? 

I actually knew a brother that would wear a 'bootlace tie' complete with the bulls head in silver, to the meetings. He had lived in America for some time so don't know if it ok in some KH's over there. This brother wore a lovely jacket with shaping over the shoulders too. Real Western ranch style i would think, but it honestly looked really smart.  Was it appropriate ?  It's not for me to judge, but it looked smart and tidy and modest. And it was an individual choice which i think congregants should be allowed to make. 

[Space Merchant]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

We seem to have a misunderstanding. i didn't mean the children were making up (pretending)  the numbers.

Did you not read your original comment, Butler?

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I meant that the number of JW's included lots of young children. So the quantity of young children putting in 'Report slips' each month, boosts the total number of JW's. 

But your comments were more direct in the group making up numbers. You did the same thing a few months ago when the facts came from those who did the demographics regarding anything that is put in numeral form and or some form of statistic and or percentage.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The 8.58 million could be half adult, half children.  And many of those children are forced to attend meetings and forced to go on the 'ministry work'.  

And your point? The number of adherents is the numerical count of those professing the faith. Some demographics take it a step further when it comes to sex, age, race, location, nationality etc.

For example, I can say 34% of the United Kingdom supports Theresa May, while 66% do not support her. The demographics is focused on people who live in the United Kingdom, but if done in depth, for instance, 5% UK Caucasian/Black/Asian/Arab/etc.  either supports or is against Theresa May, a bigger divide if they throw in Christians/Muslims/Atheists/other faiths into the mix as well as a percentage of folks who neither support/or is against.

You once said by your word that you do not know, you do not judge. How are you so sure that this "many" are forced? Granted with how Christendom as been going as the years go by, determining on something that is baseless does not bring forth this "many" as you claim, granted, if you look into the statistics of the number of adherents.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for the Memorial attendance, JW's are told to bring as many people to it as possible. Some of those attending will never go back into a Kingdom hall again. JW's go to people's homes to pick them up and take them to the Kingdom Hall, then take them home again afterward. But most JW's only do that for the one occasion, the Memorial, not on a regular basis. 

Actually, according to what I had been in discussion about during the Assasnge situation, some adherents do return and either become and or convert, your own experience does not define the multitude of others who are of that faith.

They do this because like any event of this nature, they make arrangements. Even after their celebration, some of them continue to offer themselves in terms of riding the person to church and back. This is something ridiculously common in all faiths, mainly when it comes to people with limitations who rely on others of said community to go somewhere or to do something. The ability to help others regarding such may be alien to you, but not to anyone else, therefore, those who take up said responsibility, it is indeed on a regular basis, granted of how common this practice is towards aiding a fellow man.

An example, in the mid-1980s, my cousin's girlfriend's father use to carried a handicap man on his back (piggyback ride as you call it) from one point to another, granted the aid the disabled man needed was within proximity of his home, he still carried the man around whenever he is needed, granted in those days in a country like that, there is an abundance of free time. He kept doing this on a regular basis until the disabled man grew very sickly and pass away just a year later. All in all, culture wise, the community was very close, such examples and stories were passed down to younger ones, who still live on the islands, and to those that moved away, sometimes uncles and aunts from the islands would visit and retell such events for several reasons, one of them to ensure that how this were have not ceased to nothing more than a broken mere memory, but rather, to pass on an example.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I was involved in all of this for many years. I am talking from personal experience, not from just reading what other people write. 

But your involvement does not define the experience by others in Africa, in America, Asia, etc. You were most likely, obviously, secluded to one or two JW churches; your past comments you were totally ignorant and unaare of situations unfolding in another JW church with little information you had provided. That is, unless, somehow you cracked the code into being omnipresent somehow, being in all churches at once and knowing the experiences of others firsthand vs. being secluded to just a handful of folks in your dwelling place in the EU.

Your remark is problematic when the demographics is before you, the same ones you deemed as lies when the evidence to such puts shame to your response then, and clearly now.

Unless you got some Intel on a JW church or two that you've been in in the Congo or something, than you can speak, but you having been limited to but a few churches within the UK alone doesn't bear any fruit.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

The children are made to suffer mentally. Forced by parents to do things which the children are not ready to do. Hence why so many leave the JW Org as soon as that can. It does not unite families it divides them. 

So you have proof of this? OF every child in every JW church suffering? If that is the case, you may as well get them to burn any and every Bible there is, granted that is what people seem to be doing nowadays.

A child who is Christian, yes they are taught by their parents at some point, but they can make the truth of the Bible their own by their decision as they get older.

Your other statements is baseless because you negate all and everything to your own experience, as with a handful of others vs. those who made the Bible their own.

There is but a few people who leave a religion, not in droves, but small pockets and handfuls.

If you say many people leave that faith, why on God's green earth did they increase? Why are people going back even after their event? Clearly  if you are going to say something, you have to back it up.

I will tell you this: The Bible itself can make and break relationships, especially the more you read and find out what God's Word is all about. A few days ago, Easter Day, I made the truth known to many Christians, and best believe they were triggered and out for blood when the truth about Easter was talked about, others made this truth known to friends and family, and said truth caused a divide: Those for Jesus, and those of the other Jesus, who is but a mask and really Eostre.

When a truth about the Bible is spoken, regardless of who made it known, it will always cause a divide, even among family, reasons why Jesus' word is to be taken seriously when it is often said a household can be divided.

That being said, take your blame with the Bible, if it irks you this much if you think it commits to suffering.

[Matthew9969]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:35 PM, BillyTheKid46 said:

The day I die, I won’t die without them like Doc Halliday. The difference is not clothing. It’s the presentation.

 

If someone goes out of their way to buy $600.00 dollar suit when a $200.00 suit will do just fine, then apply scripture. If a woman is going to spend thousands to look their best, then apply scripture. Rich or poor, it’s the presentation to be clean and well dressed.

 

No one is going to give someone serious credibility seeing a preacher with shorts, or shirtless. How about preaching in your underwear. What good is it to excite and preach at the same time?

 

There are many variables in scripture that doesn’t approach clothing directly like RYAN is attempting to convey, but indirectly with your outer appearance and cleanliness.

 

 

The Parkway Church: McKinney, Texas > 8 Things the Bible Says About How We Should Dress in Church

WHAT YOUR APPEARANCE SAYS ABOUT YOU

No needs to go overboard, but be presentable. When did anyone see Jesus dirty in his ministry.

The apostle John certainly didn't dress to the nines, sand Jesus stripped down to his underwear when he washed the disciples feet.