JW's mistaken claim...

[DeeDee]

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

9 hours ago, DeeDee said:

They are a continuation of the first disciples. They were the ones who did not follow the false teachings that were being promoted by some of the early followers. In earlier times, they were simply referred to as the Bible Students. In 1931 they adopted the name "Jehovah's Witnesses." This name was derived from a number of Scriptures.

You need to prove such claims,

In apostle Paul's day, there were already false teachers. The faithful disciples would only teach the truth in order to protect the valuable truth.  Thousands of people became baptized followers of Jesus. It would seem illogical to believe that not one of them or their descendants continued to be true followers of Jesus.

However, I did not mean to make it seem that the JW's are the "physical" continuation of the first disciples. I am sorry if that is how my words were interpreted. I only meant that the JW's are the "spiritual" continuation of the first disciples.

[Witness]

On 1/14/2018 at 9:07 AM, Nana Fofana said:

 

I agree that's the kingdom in Dan. 2:44, but I meant the part ,"In the days of those kings" when God will set up the kingdom.

What kings do you think that will be "in the days of"?  I was wondering if you agree that the ankles and feet of the statue refer to the "Anglo-American  World Power" that seems to have come into existence  around 1914, with features like currency issued as debt, unmoored from a true relationship to anything of tangible value. And according to some :

"-only seventeen firms are allowed to operate as merchant bankers in the City of London, England’s financial district. All of them must be approved by the Bank of England. In fact, most of the Governors of the Bank of England come from the partners of these seventeen firms. Clarke ranks the seventeen in order of their capitalization. Number 2 is the Schroder Bank. Number 6 is Morgan Grenfell, the London branch of the House of Morgan and actually its dominant branch. Lazard Brothers is Number 8. N.M. Rothschild is Number 9. Brown Shipley Company, the London branch of Brown Brothers Harriman, is Number 14. These five merchant banking firms of London actually control the New York banks which own the controlling interest in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

The control over Federal Reserve System decisions is also founded in another unique situation. Each day, representatives of four other London banking firms meet in the offices of N.M. Rothschild Company in London to fix the price of gold for that day. The other four bankers are from Samuel Montagu Company, which ranks Number 5 on the list of seventeen London merchant banking firms, Sharps Pixley, Johnson Matheson, and Mocatta and Goldsmid. Despite the huge tide of paper pyramided currency and notes which are now flooding the world, at some point, every credit extension must return to be based, in however minuscule a fashion, on some deposit of gold in some bank somewhere in the world. Because of this factor, the London merchant bankers, with their power to set the price of gold each day, become the final arbiters of the volume of money and the price of money in those countries which must bow to their power. Not the least of these is the United States. No official of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, or of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, can command the power over the money of the world which is held by these London merchant bankers. Great Britain, while waning in political and military power, today exercises the greatest financial power. It is for this reason that London is the present financial center of the world.

And the U.S. entering WW1 as Britain's ally,  in 1917, and so forth. 

Dan 2:36 “This is the dream, and we will now tell the king its interpretation.37 You, O king—the king of kings to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom,+ the might, the strength, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given men wherever they may dwell, as well as the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them+—you yourself are the head of gold.+

39 “But after you another kingdom will rise,+ inferior to you; then another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth.+

40 “As for the fourth kingdom, it will be strong like iron.+ For just as iron crushes and pulverizes everything else, yes, like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter all of these.+

41 “And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay.42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people;* but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay.

44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom+that will never be destroyed.+ And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people.+ It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,+ and it alone will stand forever,+ 45 just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold.+ The Grand God has made known to the king what will happen in the future.+ The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

Do you think the Anglo- American  power is ruling now and will still be ruling when God's Kingdom "smashes and puts an end

to all these kingdoms"?

Nana, doesn't Satan want us to look into his world for the "signs" of the end?  It's his realm.  Isn't this exactly what Jesus saw the Pharisees doing?  Matt  16:2,3   It's too easy to see what's going on and to apply all those signs to his return.  In Matt 24:15, Jesus said we had to use discernment to understand that pivotal scripture, which applies to Daniel's "fourth beast".

Of Daniel’s image, only four powers are represented.  We know from history that there were many more than four major powers to come and go; but unlike what you may believe, each power of the image has to do with God’s people.  Satan is the greatest foe against them. Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, represents Satan, and a formidable foe against Israel (along with Pharoah who also represents Satan).  This leaves three left.  Daniel tells us that the “fourth beast”/power also comes against the anointed ones in the time of the end, using a far different sort of power than previous ones. 

The “fourth kingdom” of Dan 2:40 is the “fourth beast” of Dan 7:7, with ten horns; and is the same Beast of Rev 13:1.  To verify that this fourth kingdom comes against the anointed ones, Rev 13:7 says,

“And it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”

Dan 7:8, 21 - "While I was considering the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. And suddenly in this horn there were eyes like the eyes of a human and a mouth that was speaking arrogantly.   "As I was watching, this horn waged war against the holy ones and was prevailing over them”

Is this happening in the world with the Anglo-American power?

The anointed/holy ones/saints are mingled with other people when this is occurring. It is an alliance of two types of people – that of iron and clay.  God refers to his chosen people as “clay”, and of the earth (Dan 7:23).  2 Cor 4:7; Isa 41:25; Isa 64:8 The “iron” represents the foe, those not anointed, who come against and trample them. Matt 24:15; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3  For those anointed who fall in step with the “iron”, they are no longer molded by God, but by those who rule over them. 

The “daily sacrifice” is abolished and another form of “sacrifice” is presented by a false priesthood.    Dan 7:31  They are to “worship” an “image” that has been given authority to abolish the “daily sacrifice”/fruit of their lips.  Heb 13:15;Rev 13:15; Dan 11:31 ; 2 Thess 2:4

Can you see what I’m getting at?  The last power of Daniel’s image has nothing to do with the political entities that the Wt. tries to have you believe.  In fact, they will confuse you, by applying different terms to both Daniel’s fourth beast and Revelation’s Wild Beast of Rev. 13:1  The Wt. uses its own worldly supposition to explain Daniel’s fourth beast of iron and clay, without turning to God’s Word that describes who are the clay, and who are the iron. 

Iron – if “clay” represents God’s anointed ones/spiritual “Israel”, (Rom 2:28,29) “iron” are those spiritual “Gentiles” who rule over them. Lev 20:22,23; Ezek 11:12; Luke 22:25,26:Matt 24:49; Rev 2:9

This is not to say all “Gentiles” have hearts like iron (Rev 9:9; Ezek 36:26; 11:19; Zech 7:12)  Only those who are thirsty for prominence and power and greed; and also those who refuse to “see” the spiritual manifestation of the coming of Christ.  They are the ones who reject a “new heart” from the Father and Christ.  Ezek 36:26

The toes of Daniel’s image are those “kings of the earth”/clay (Dan 2:41,42) that align with Revelation’s Beast and bring the Harlot/false prophet down; then rule for “one hour” with Revelation’s Wild Beast.  Rev 1:6,5;5:9,10; John 18:36; Rev 19:16; 17:12-14; Dan 2:44

Literally, the GB will be ousted, and certain anointed ones (“10 kings”) will coordinate with spiritual “Gentiles” to keep the organization running without the GB – but only for “one hour”, a brief period of time.

All “kings” of the world will be gone when Daniel’s image is destroyed by the fulfilled true Mount Zion; but first and foremost, are those “kings/anointed ones of the earth” (Rev 1:5;5:10;19:16) whose clay has hardened into iron. 

The last anointed ones face Satan’s most deceptive “different” and “fearsome” power, the “fourth beast/Wild Beast”. If they give in to this power over them, they will not be among the small remnant that will survive.  Rev 12:17,15; Dan 11:10; Isa 24:6; Rev 20:9,10; Dan 7:9-11

"This is what he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms. It will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it.”  Dan 7:23

I am sure you are aware of the various quotes on the JW website about anointed ones needing to respect the elder body, not “meet” to study the Bible together, that they have no more Holy Spirit than the elder body, and that many scriptures that would apply to the anointed priesthood is applied to….the elder body.  They are guarded by hawks, and if they step out of line, they are disfellowshipped; which leads them, hopefully to salvation in Christ. Rev 3:18; Mal 3:2,3 This also applies to those “Gentiles” that truly cannot stand hypocrisy and lies as well.  John 16:2; Rev 12:11; 13:15

“He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time. 2 Thess 2:1-12

²⁶ ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
²⁷ Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’  Dan 7:25-27

 

 

 

 

 

[Cos]

9 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Here is the triple form used for some goddesses:  Maiden - Mother - Crone.

Another triple form in paganism is:  Mother - Father - Son.

Ms DeeDee,

 

Which “pagan gods and goddess” were these? <><

[Cos]

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Not denying anything.

You do share the same ideas or similar and that’s what I’m getting at

 

Historically the idea that you both share regarding the person of Jesus originated in the fourth century not before.

 

Arianism is a term to describe those who espouse this similar view, because as you have said, there are many such groups.

 

I suggest you read the writings of Christians, who lived BEFORE the fourth century and see what they taught and believed about Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then you will see that what they taught and believed is the same as that is believed by Christians for the last 2000 years.

 

Let me sum this for you.

 

The early church, from the first century onwards, always agreed that there were three in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in complete accord with the later creeds (which were formulated to combat the false ideas).

 

If one examines carefully and with all honesty the writings of the early church their language and theology bear forth their understanding of the Triune God long before and in complete harmony with the 4th century formulated creeds.

 

I finish off here with a quote from Ignatius AD 30 - 107;

 

“There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honor.”(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, chapter 2). <><

 

[Cos]

2 hours ago, DeeDee said:

 I only meant that the JW's are the "spiritual" continuation of the first disciples.

Ms DeeDee,

 

With a gap of some 1900 years in-between...come on that’s just plain ridiculous. <><

[DeeDee]

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Which “pagan gods and goddess” were these? <><

I am sorry, but I am not permitted to tell you.

[Cos]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

I am sorry, but I am not permitted to tell you.

Ms DeeDee,

 

Maybe you have been fed false information or you made this all up?

[DeeDee]

2 hours ago, Cos said:

I finish off here with a quote from Ignatius AD 30 - 107;

 

“... but into three possessed of equal honor.”(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, chapter 2). <><

This is not a quote from the Bible. Here is what Jesus said in the Bible:

John 14:28 - You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

[DeeDee]

3 minutes ago, Cos said:

Ms DeeDee,

 

Maybe you have been fed false information or you made this all up?

No, I took an oath when I was initiated as a pagan to not share certain information with those who are uninitiated. Since you are not initiated, I cannot share that information with you. And in keeping Jesus' commandment, "Let your word 'Yes' mean yes," I cannot go against any oath I take. I am firm in ALWAYS letting my 'Yes' mean 'yes.'

[DeeDee]

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

3 hours ago, DeeDee said:

 I only meant that the JW's are the "spiritual" continuation of the first disciples.

Ms DeeDee,

 

With a gap of some 1900 years in-between...come on that’s just plain ridiculous. <><

To think that there is a written record of the "physical" continuation from the first disciples would be ridiculous.

To think that there are spiritually-minded people who follow Jesus as strictly as if they were there in his presence, is NOT ridiculous. It is a FACT, and JW's are an example of people who follow the teachings of Jesus that way [example: my 'Yes' means yes].

[Cos]

17 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

This is not a quote from the Bible. Here is what Jesus said in the Bible:

John 14:28 - You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

Ms DeeDee,

 

I didn’t say it was from the Bible. I’m demonstrating how the first Christian up until now understand and believe the same.  

 

And please Jesus is speaking from the position of His humanity in John 14:28 as is quite clear.

 

Jesus came as a man, fully man in every way, that’s why He could say, “for my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), Jesus is here speaking from His position of manhood.

 

Note carefully what Jesus specifically said, “The Father is greater than I,” not, “The Father is better than I.”

 

The word “greater” is used to point to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), and has nothing to do with nature. Had the word “better” (Greek kreitton) been used, then this would indicate that the Father has a better nature than Jesus, and that Jesus was less in nature, but this word is not used. To put it in a way that even you should be able to understand. The Queen of England is in a higher position than the rest of us. Therefore the Queen is greater than the rest of us. But, she is still just a human being, and therefore, not better than the rest of us. Jesus’ use of the word “greater” points to the Father being higher in position only. During the time that Jesus walked among us, He functioned in the world of humanity, so therefore the Father was higher (greater) in position than Him. <><

[Cos]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

No, I took an oath when I was initiated as a pagan to not share certain information with those who are uninitiated. Since you are not initiated, I cannot share that information with you. And in keeping Jesus' commandment, "Let your word 'Yes' mean yes," I cannot go against any oath I take. I am firm in ALWAYS letting my 'Yes' mean 'yes.'

Ms DeeDee,

 

Well you are no longer “a pagan” as you say so that oath is null and void. <><