JW's mistaken claim...

[Cos]

15 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Despite how long the debate was, in this sole topic the jw had the upper hand.

 

Space merchant,

 

I don’t think "the JW had the upper hand", because according to JWs in their many publications they claim that Jesus can’t be worshipped so he was answering contra to what JWs believe and teach, no wonder that person in the debate is no longer a JW!

31 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

CoS: as for our history, it can easily be googled, History of Unitarianism as well as our Christology (understanding of the Messiah).

 

I don’t think it is my position to look up Unitarian history to try to verify your claim, you instead should be showing where the Unitarian form of religion is mentioned in the writings of the early church before the fourth century to back your claim. <><

[Shiwiii]

17 hours ago, DeeDee said:

 

Note that this Scripture is pointing out that the light "shines as far as the west."

If you are facing east, then you can see the actual lightning bolt as it is striking.

However, if you are facing west, then you CANNOT SEE the bolt of lightning...all you see is the EFFECT of the lightning.

So, in the same way, you CANNOT SEE Jesus, but you can see the effect of his coming.

 

You really want me to believe that if you are standing outside with your friends at night and its dark, lightning strikes on the other side of the house you're at and someone says " I saw lightning", you are going to say "nope not me, I didn't see the bolt so it wasn't lightning". So what about those who are on the side of the house where the bolt was, did they see it? Would those then see Jesus? Yes of course they would. 

That is about the most intellectually dishonest statement I think I've heard about this subject. You must think any non jw is stupid. 

That's fine if you want to try and convince yourself that you cannot see Him. I personally cannot accept that nonsense. I guess I'll be judged by God for taking His word too literally, instead of taking what a group of men interpret it to mean. 

I'm sorry if you think I am being harsh, but just stop and think about it for a moment. Men have told you that Jesus came invisibly and scripture says "every eye will see Him" (Rev 1:7). The context of Matt 24:24-27 is saying that there will come some people saying that Jesus has come but you can't see Him (inner rooms, in the desert, etc.). That fits the wt exactly, but some have been so blinded and duped by these men that they just cannot see. 

[Shiwiii]

16 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Yes, I'm sure there is no confirmation of any continuation.

Records were not kept to PROVE continuation...

In the same way, I don't know who are the parents of my grandparents in my own family.

But that does not stop people (once called Bible Students) from freely choosing to become followers of Jesus' teachings by obeying all of his commandments.

I am not saying that they are a "physical" continuation.

Rather, they are a "spiritual" continuation.

hogwash and wishful thinking. If they in fact were a continuation of "spiritual" disciples, then they would have never deviated from what you claim is the "truth". They would have never celebrated Christmas nor worshiped Jesus. So your argument falls flat. You can try and spin with words, but it just doesn't add up. 

[Shiwiii]

13 hours ago, DeeDee said:

I am sorry, but I am not permitted to tell you.

Huh?

 

11 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Jesus would disagree with you...My word must be good for all time, not just for while it is convenient for me ["yes" means yes].

Then what you are really saying is that you think Jesus wants you to remain loyal to pagan rituals and rules? You made an oath while pagan, to which you agree is to the side of evil, and you think Jesus wants you to keep that oath? I really don't think you believe that, instead I think you made stuff up to try and look good, and now that you got caught, you have to keep up the pretending. 

[Shiwiii]

11 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

In regards to what I stated or you wanting me to explain how I view those verses? Assuming you want me to answer on my stance on Christ, The Sabbath and also about Holidays?

my question was about the celebration of Jesus birth, no matter what day it is done. Since Romans 14 tells us that each of us decides in his or her own heart on what day is above another, as long as it is to the glory of God, then Colossians 2 tells us that no one is to judge us by it. I wanted to know if you see it that way as well? or is there some other scripture that you believe overrides this? Or am I just wrong? 

That is what I was asking. 

[Srecko Sostar]

19 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Who else is doing it to the extent that Jesus commanded?

Philippians 1:15 

"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill."

Who else? Here is answer too :)) Old Catholic church preaching, all other Christians churches and denominations preaching. What is problem? 

Extent? Why this is important? Jesus and apostles have little extent. So what? :)) 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, DeeDee said:

Yes, I'm sure there is no confirmation of any continuation.

Records were not kept to PROVE continuation...

In the same way, I don't know who are the parents of my grandparents in my own family.

But that does not stop people (once called Bible Students) from freely choosing to become followers of Jesus' teachings by obeying all of his commandments.

I am not saying that they are a "physical" continuation.

Rather, they are a "spiritual" continuation.

OK  

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

They were appointed to give his household food at proper time, then.

Sorry but I think how such kind of appointment was  done by Jesus in 1 century to apostles and other spiritual men. :)) So why would  he repeat that again in 19 century. Because he said to apostles how he is with them in all times and periods till the end. This is CONTINUATION. :))

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, DeeDee said:

However, I did not mean to make it seem that the JW's are the "physical" continuation of the first disciples. I am sorry if that is how my words were interpreted. I only meant that the JW's are the "spiritual" continuation of the first disciples.

Oh dear Dee. This looked as complication to me :)) To make other illustration. Old Jew people as nation are physical and spiritual continuation from time of Moses until this day today.

Jehovah Witnesses have its beginning in 1935 as some kind of continuation of Bible Students (from 1879), because WTBTS is/was legal Mother of both group. By that we can talk about some sort of "physical and spiritual" continuation. 

But JW or WT have no connection with 1 century Jesus followers as CONTINUATION. Talking about "spiritual" connection and  continuation in such way is in field of speculation and wishes. :)) 

[Space Merchant]

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

my question was about the celebration of Jesus birth, no matter what day it is done. Since Romans 14 tells us that each of us decides in his or her own heart on what day is above another, as long as it is to the glory of God, then Colossians 2 tells us that no one is to judge us by it. I wanted to know if you see it that way as well? or is there some other scripture that you believe overrides this? Or am I just wrong? 

That is what I was asking. 

I think I made myself pretty clear on my last comment.

I don't celebrate Christmas not just for religious reasons, but cultural reasons too, in fact, I have never celebrated it because that was how my family was brought up out of Belize and into the US, for my family had always believed some holidays not only have pagan roots, but forms of Druidism and other things. I don't take issue for one's free will to choose if they want to celebrate it or a holiday or not, I am not stopping them, even thought I view it as something that is not right. However, if someone comes to me and says to me Jesus was born December 25th, when me, knowing that Tishri (month of Ethanim) wasn't a cold day, when Chislev (November/December) and Tebeth (December/January), as well as the Shepherds being out in the month of Ethanim. In short, the mixing of Holy Days with Man-Made traditions. Anything to with the Sun God, the Yule worship and Druidism, along with a list of many reasons as why many avoid it.

I hold on to these views strongly and I don't consider Jesus being used to reap profit.

What is indeed true is that Santa Claus is based off St. Nicholas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

As I said about others who have spoken up, these are just examples:

(Some are more extreme on this issue than others)

 

 

[Space Merchant]

18 hours ago, Cos said:

 

Space merchant,

 

I donÂ’t think "the JW had the upper hand", because according to JWs in their many publications they claim that Jesus canÂ’t be worshipped so he was answering contra to what JWs believe and teach, no wonder that person in the debate is no longer a JW!

 

I donÂ’t think it is my position to look up Unitarian history to try to verify your claim, you instead should be showing where the Unitarian form of religion is mentioned in the writings of the early church before the fourth century to back your claim. <><

Actually he did, especially on how he was able to tread with ease in that debate with a guy who hates JWs so much he can't sleep at night. Plus I purposely left out more to what was said after that claim and the verses it was pertaining to. The JW did bring interesting points and what the bible says, in addition, the reason he isn't a JW anymore because with what he knows he wanted to start his own religion almost. However, he is pretty critical on defending JWs, hence his position as a JW apologist, especially with what he even said in his own words about John 1:1 or any claim that Jesus is God.

For the JW was speaking about Angels showing obeisance to Jesus, and what the word really means. For the Son is higher than the angels and for that reason the Angels bow down to him. So what is said is true, do spirit creatures receive worship? Because God made it so for he makes it evident he has put Jesus in a superior position.

Well this is the debate, I think it would interest you, the first time I seen it is when the Muslims brought it up to prove there is literally 2 factions of Christianity:

Monotheistic Christianity vs Trinitarianism

 

Also 2 other videos from a guy who is neutral with some Christians, even though he is a Christian himself on this same topic of Jesus and Worship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-ju6wxH_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XESkf_QrSig

 

As for Unitarians, quote:

Quote

Unitarians trace their history back to the Apostolic Age, i.e. the life of Jesus and the decades immediately after his death, and claim this doctrine was widespread during the pre-Nicene period, that is, before the First Council of Nicaea met in 325. Many believe their Christology (understanding of Jesus Christ) most closely reflects that of the "original Christians."

While it is evident that other Christologies existed in the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, at least some Jewish-Christian congregations tended to hold the view that Jesus was a great man and prophet, even the Son of God, but not God himself. 

 

[Cos]

10 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 especially on how he was able to tread with ease in that debate

Space merchant,

 

What’s ironic is this JW you mention (now an ex-JW) did not even quote from the NWT, because in Hebrews 1:6 the JW version does not have the word “worship” but “obeisance”.

 

Anyway, I’m sorry but time does not permit me to watch you tube videos as I have many other matters to attend to.

 

However, I’m still interested in you showing me from the writings of the early church (pre fourth century) where the Unitarian form of religion is mentioned. We know that these writers wrote to combat all forms of heresies that the early church faced, so if your believe system were present pre fourth century as you assert, and not an invention of some later date, then it is in these writings that will verify this. <><