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JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"


Jack Ryan

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most do not give any prophecy because they only criticize.

Dear Arauna, 

I don't know how other people feels, but will say for my self. I can't give to you and to other here any  prophecy because of several reasons:

1) i am not true prophet

2) i am not false prophet

3) i am not inspired

4) i am not mentally ill

:))))))

... well yes you are right, i can only comment or criticize or give critical thinking on WT Society interpretations of prophesies and their attempt to explain when and how particular prophesy taking fulfillment....in other words WT "prophecy". 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most do not give any prophecy because they only criticize.  "Prophecy' about future also totally lacking because they spend time only criticizing JW timeline but their own timelines happen to prove that jehovah is NOT the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. ....

... criticizing JW timeline ...... jehovah is (NOT) the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. ....

I will describe how i explain this wording, you can correct me if you think otherwise.

We have Bible and some verses that we think is a prophecy.

We (in this case JW organization and WT Society) made, making and changing several versions of the explanation/interpretations as something that it is, must be, have to be, it can't be something else ...etc.

And as result of big trust to this (human) interpretations, as they are been "empowered" by God, members thinking about JHVH as "perfect timekeeper" of His prophecy, but in fact of this "WT prophecy".

And at the end, as normal expectation is this: JW's living in delusion of hope aka expectation how it is normal to have particular expectation from JHVH to be One who will fulfill human expectations as His own goal. 

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First of all, before I begin answering, I wanted to say that I have long expected that any JWs who go online to defend their views publicly will see more and more of what is beginning to happen here.

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view. Apart from what has already been quoted

Yes. I wrote up a post on this at the time and included how other translations handled the verse. An excerpt:   (from https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/who-is-mentally-diseased.html ) “Mor

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A brother in charge of the PR department at Bethel for a while told me that probably 90 percent of those who drift away because they no longer believe what they once believed are never heard from again. The 10 percent who make noise probably make noise mostly because they are angry that they have been cut off from the love of their family. They can no longer see their grandchildren, their children, parents, or grandparents, or cousins, aunts and uncles. To him the apostate problem was the loud voices, the negative interviews they gave, and the protests at assemblies and headquarters. He thought we could resolve almost all of the apostate problems if we merely changed the one rule about cutting of the natural affection of the family. There was some vacillation on this point for a while.

In those days, he said that the only two serious negative issues to deal with for a PR department were "blood and blood." (Meaning blood transfusions and blood relatives.)

  1. His worst nightmare was when a baby died, or a child died, when all evidence showed that it was because the parents refused a blood transfusion. Pregnant mothers died from lack of a transfusion, too, after a delivery, and this was almost as bad. Custody issues also tended to focus on the way one parent, the Witness, would handle a blood related emergency.
  2. The other topic, stated above, was about cutting off family members who were disfellowshipped. 

Today of course, there might be other issues people are speaking up about, such as CSA.

I tend to agree that it is mostly those who harbor some kind of anger who rant on about 1874, pyramids, the Millions/1925 campaign, Miracle Wheat, Salon Society, Beth Sarim, Blood, Transplants, etc. A tiny percentage had their own issues with blood, but the people who scream about blood policy the most are those hurt by being rejected from family ties, not because they had any experience with the blood issue. Today, I'm guessing that most of those who make noise about CSA have never had a personal negative experience with CSA.

Obviously there are exceptions, and who knows about the 90-percent/10-percent estimate anyway?

But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make. I've never seen a crowd of apostates bigger than 40 or so, and some of these same persons make plans to travel around the world to keep the numbers of protesters looking large. Compare that to the MILLIONS now living who no longer believe the JW doctrines.

I also get the feeling that many of the loudest voices don't really even believe that CORRECTING Witness doctrines is all that important. Perhaps "Witness" and "Pearl" are exceptions, but I think most of the loudest voices don't really think that correcting JW doctrines is any more important than correcting Catholic or Mormon doctrines, because they most likely have no specific Christian anchoring of any kind. But they focus on JWs because that's where their anger or even hatred is focused.

I read something from one of the loudest voices against CSA (whose last name is a type of tree). There is a real hatred for elders. It's obvious. At the assembly, we were told that it wasn't about those who had drifted, but those who "push" away and show prideful arrogance and bitterness. I think we've seen cases where prideful bitterness and arrogance and hatred have been nurtured to truly become a mental disease. Diagnosable and certifiable. I won't point to any specific names, but there's that guy who stuck his name on "silent lambs" for example, if the stories I've heard are true.

Still, we can't judge generally of the millions who have drifted away, and just don't want to revisit something that has become painful to them. Even among the brotherhood, there is more and more evidence of perhaps hundreds or even thousands of Witnesses who are PIMO (Physically in, mentally out). A few months ago, I had no idea that there was such an expression, but I just "reddit" and discovered that there are many who plan to leave quietly, without raising their voice, and not making a scene. Mostly it looks like they do this to keep the family bonds intact. Relative to "sickness" it reminds me of this verse:

(1 Corinthians 11:30) 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and quite a few are sleeping in death.

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On 11/7/2019 at 5:45 AM, Equivocation said:

Do you at least have a citation or a source? 🤔

Hate to say it, but @Witness is right on this. The Watchtower source is very recent, and I have previously quoted it on the forum. I assume "Witness" has quoted it here too.

On 11/7/2019 at 5:45 AM, Equivocation said:

I still couldn't find that "God" source of yours, so I am just going to check "False" on that multiple choice paper.

Unfortunately, you would be wrong on that question, too. "Witness" says he was referring to the more subtle meaning of setting oneself in a position of authority like God, which is not done with a direct claim. But there are quotations from quite a bit further back in the Watchtower which taught a direct equivalence between the words of the Governing Body, and the words of God. Prior to that, the Watchtower claimed that those of the higher calling, the Bride of Christ, could be spoken of as the "Mighty God" and the "Everlasting Father" and the "Prophet Greater than Moses."

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

read something from one of the loudest voices against CSA (whose last name is a type of tree). There is a real hatred for elders. It's obvious. At the assembly, we were told that it wasn't about those who had drifted, but those who "push" away and show prideful arrogance and bitterness. I think we've seen cases where prideful bitterness and arrogance and hatred have been nurtured to truly become a mental disease. Diagnosable and certifiable.

The thing about the man whose last name is a type of a tree, both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs.  And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation.  I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth.  Those who inflict abuse, are the mentally diseased ones.

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7 minutes ago, Witness said:

both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs.  And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation.  I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth.

If that's the case it's more understandable. Of course, many of these abused ones go on to inflict abuse themselves, which according to your own statements, would make them "mentally diseased" too. But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

When I said "certifiable" I was referring specifically to some very disturbing stories about the "leader" of silent-lambs. These are not stories coming from JWs, but from what I have read coming from exJWs, too.

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Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's. Not even sure he has a regular job because all his time is taken up by making videos, writing his blog and doing research.

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25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

It is as you said,

“But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make”

Should any noise made by an exjw be judged as someone cooking up a brew of lies in "Satan's kitchen"?    

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's.

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Witness said:

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

True,up  to a point. I heard the same thing you posted from the convention and took it to mean that we no longer think of the millions of persons who have left because of no longer believing as apostates. The speaker said that we do not include those who "drift away" as apostates. Only those who deliberately push away with a bitter, haughty, defiant attitude. There are several of those persons, but at least it effectively cuts down on the number of exJW apostates by as many as, who knows, two million? It's a tautology, but it sounded like we should only consider the mentally diseased apostates as mentally diseased. Those we could safely judge as part of Satan's seed. Personally, I can't judge anyone I know that harshly, but I'm sure they exist. And I suspect a couple of people might be in that category. And not always because they are so obvious, but sometimes because of how crafty they are.

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession, too. For example, pioneer service is proof how some JW member is zeal for JHVH. He/she spend 35, 50, 70 hours or much more hours. Other things in their life are putted down for spiritual reasons. And such person mostly thinking about one thing - preaching. Is he/she obsessed with this activity? Many wouldl show "signs" of that.

We can see how one Bible individual act in "obsessed"  way. 

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb........And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts......Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.....For John came neither eating nor drinking......Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.....

From our today's perspective even JW members would say how such person (without knowing source of description)  is not in full mental health. 

 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession,

True. We do however have a positive and negative connotation. In the case of someone obsessed with criticizing an organization made up of mostly good people, doing good things, that is a negative connotation of the word obsession. On the other hand, being "obsessed" about doing JHVH's will would have a positive connotation. In general though obsession seems more negative that positive, therefor zeal in this case would be a better choice in my opinion. Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

Yes, all people are sinners and can do horrible things. We all know that. His obsession is unreasonable because he isn't going to change people is he? Plus half the things he says are false, and badly argued. As an example, he puts down the Witnesses for not joining the rest of the world in support of LGBT groups, clearly something condemned by God. Then again he doesn't care what God thinks, as he is a self proclaimed atheist....

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

I agree. And you even not need to be obsessed or zeal with/for something, but still doing wrong thing.

That is what i have in mind. But also is important where you are in that moment (spiritual and literal place). If such person is observed from/by people who not belong to same ideology it could be viewed as "fanatic" (zealous or obsessed, it would not be too much difference)  

Even inside own group, various levels of "spirituality" that individuals (and others around) have and shows, that individuals see as desirable and good, as the qualities that people around and god himself expecting of us to have them, can be in range from, what fellow brotherhood consider as, normal, role model zeal to something what can be very confusing and doubtful.    

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Guest Tom Henry

What I’d like to know, why are witnesses debating a 9-year-old apostate talking point? Why the rhetoric about mentally diseased is not clearly defined without suppositions entering into the mix. Apostates made it a talking point to mean them.

Mentally diseased means anything but what is scripturally stated in 1 Tim. 6:3, 4. FALSE TEACHERS. Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates. Atheist, and even present day witnesses can be included. Christians with a different interpretation of scripture can be included. Christians accepting the teachings of another and not the teachings of Christ and define their argument as though their teacher has more spiritual connection than the watchtower in order to deceive those viewing certain posts as a prophetic insight can be included.

People don’t need to judge, even though “everyone” does in our daily lives one way or another. We just need to apply Scripture.

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