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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Imagine if I had made such a statement about any one of the Governing Body. 

Witness would deluge me with verses about not idolizing humans and it would take me weeks to dig out.

I wouldn't be too quick to mention Idolize, but instead respect for those that God has chosen. No one should admire anyone. It doesn't mean, it doesn't happen here. Sometime, people defend others that gave input toward a book. That doesn't mean it's right. That kind of support doesn't get anyone anywhere with God.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

about sole service of God:

That would be the point. Look at your own actions and behavior. Don't worry about others. They will not be held into account in your behalf, unless you take the Responsibility of the FDS. Something tells me you have a lot to learn about scripture. Point being, the text you just submitted can be applied to you, and witness.

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23 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Imagine if I had made such a statement about any one of the Governing Body. 

Witness would deluge me with verses about not idolizing humans and it would take me weeks to dig out.

How is this idolatry, by saying Pearl is being used "in an exclusive way"?   Wasn't Paul, and all the apostles used in an exclusive way?  Do you know how faithful anointed were used over the last 2,000 years?  The faithful were busy serving God as He expected, in whatever capacity he bestowed on them.  

There is no comparison between Pearl and a GB who write their own doctrine, set of rules, that contradicts the Bible.  But, that comes with earthly "organization" that needs your money...to thrive.  

 

whoops.  Sorry.  I was to use...@TTH

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

There is no comparison between Pearl and a GB who write their own doctrine, set of rules, that contradicts the Bible.  But, that comes with earthly "organization" that needs your money...to thrive. 

When did Pearl start receiving direct instruction by God that you can't comprehend, if the 8 men you hate are writing their own doctrine even though "everything" is based on Bible Principle, why would anyone expect to think Pearl's doctrine that she does ADD to scripture cannot be considered the same.

I suppose your internet connection is free to use, to ATTACK that organization. True you're not publicly asking for donations, but, do you have the need to ask for donations in that "oneness" ideology of yours in private. What part of Circumventing Jesus own words of "Unity" continues to fail you.

Does Pearl sell books?

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2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

When did Pearl start receiving direct instruction by God that you can't comprehend, if the 8 men you hate are writing their own doctrine even though "everything" is based on Bible Principle, why would anyone expect to think Pearl's doctrine that she does ADD to scripture cannot be considered the same.

Anything you would like to know about Pearl as an anointed one, is on her blog.  

 

2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

I suppose your internet connection is free to use, to ATTACK that organization

Free internet to attack the organization.  The correlations you make....smh

2 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Does Pearl sell books?

No. Do you?

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20 minutes ago, Witness said:

Anything you would like to know about Pearl as an anointed one, is on her blog. 

I have. If I was you, I wouldn't bolster that blog!

 

21 minutes ago, Witness said:

Free internet to attack the organization.  The correlations you make....smh

Silly isn't it. Just like paying attention to your nonsense!

 

21 minutes ago, Witness said:

No. Do you?

Don't confuse me with TTH. He has the need for that kind of research. My research is more serious. However, The point was, you don't have an earthly body of Christ (Christ Church) filled with God's people that actually devote their time and lives in the worship of the one true God.

What do you do besides bash and attack 8 men. What earthly Christian conduct does that prove? What part of the Body of Christ can you tether yourself, When Christ would reject you're behavior by his own words. You're no better than Pearl!

That's all you opposers are, excuses and justifications. Use scripture to bolster any false claim.

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10 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

However, The point was, you don't have an earthly body of Christ (Christ Church) filled with God's people that actually devote their time and lives in the worship of the one true God.

Do you have the ability to peer into my private worship given to God?  Do you have the ability to know who I worship with?     I didn't think so.

13 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

What do you do besides bash and attack 8 men.

What do you do besides slander opposers?

14 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

When Christ would reject you're behavior by his own words.

Could you please provide scripture that proves he is rejecting my behavior?

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Does Pearl sell books?

 

8 hours ago, Witness said:

No. Do you?

 

8 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

Don't confuse me with TTH.

No matter how many ebooks TTH has sold, it is not enough. Besides, the two most recent, one on the opposition to JWs in Russia, the other on their opposition in Western lands, are free—not sold at all.

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12 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you have the ability to peer into my private worship given to God?  Do you have the ability to know who I worship with?     I didn't think so.

Sure do, actions speak louder than words. Your action and behavior is not conducive of a Christian.

 

12 hours ago, Witness said:

What do you do besides slander opposers?

That's right! There needs to be at least one person to call out all you, opposers and the nonsense you claim in the name of God.

12 hours ago, Witness said:

Could you please provide scripture that proves he is rejecting my behavior?

2 Corinthians 10:10-11

Context: Paul's Apostolic Authority

10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is unimpressive, and his speaking is of no account.” 11Such people should consider that what we are in our letters when absent, we will be in our actions when present.

If you can’t understand scripture, why continue to “slander” 8 men you know nothing about in their personal devotion to the one true God, and how the commission of the Holy Spirit works and who God chooses.

Get over yourself!

 

 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No matter how many ebooks TTH has sold, it is not enough. Besides, the two most recent, one on the opposition to JWs in Russia, the other on their opposition in Western lands, are free—not sold at all

You know me TTH. I couldn't care less. I wasn't referring to the sale of Books but rather sloppy input you receive and poor research points given.

Your team has to answer to God. The good thing, your associates are NOT mind. I don't consider witnesses sitting on the fence witnesses in GOOD standing. Especially those that continue to "agree" with opposer views.

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34 minutes ago, Allen_Smith said:

You know me TTH. I couldn't care less. I wasn't referring to the sale of Books but rather sloppy input you receive and poor research points given.

I do appreciate your helping me hawk them.

As to “sloppy input” and “poor research,” I really have no idea what you are talking about. Specific points made are very well attested to, and are selected to make a thorough defense of the Witness organization before any inclined to criticize it. “Dear Mr. Putin” is heavily documented for sources—a rough guess is that it contains about 600 endnotes. A lot of work went into it, and there is nothing else like it.

There exists no comprehensive history of JW persecution in Russia with regard to the present ban other than my work. It is a huge international story, perhaps the story of the year with regard to freedom of worship, and yet it is nowhere completely covered (that i know of—I’d be happy to learn if there is any other) except for in my ebook. 

It is not primarily written for the friends, but for journalists, human rights and policy persons the world over. The fact that it is written by a Witness means that it is written from a Witness point of view, and that can hardly be a bad thing.

Other books are not “research” per se, but a relating of events. When you relate events, all you have to do is relate them. The books insult no one, threaten no one, and are not disrespectful even to those with whom we disagree and to those who are causing us substantial problems.

It may be simply the fact that they are written with a substantial light touch, even a sense of humor, that gets to you. Otherwise, I am not sure why you would keep harping on them.

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It may be simply the fact that they are written with a substantial light touch, even a sense of humor, that gets to you. Otherwise, I am not sure why you would keep harping on them.

I told you the answer previously ... and of course it was downvoted  by the person who actually HAS "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", by whatever name.

  If you look up the symptoms you will see it is an exact fit.

He/They will NEVER stop until you, too, are a humorless blob, and be like Him/Them.

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It may be simply the fact that they are written with a substantial light touch, even a sense of humor, that gets to you. Otherwise, I am not sure why you would keep harping on them.

Read my statement again. I couldn't care less. I don't recommend books that have received negative input by people not in good standing and have a negative view of the Watchtower. It would be like thinking JTR would be mentally sound to give sound advice about the Watchtower to use as good research and accept them as sound talking points. Therefore, I'm not harping. I'm demonstrating the difference when you attack (Rebuke) some people (Actual brother) here but not others.

That in effect makes your books of fighting a good fight in a journalist point of view, null and void. Can't have it both ways. Scripture is more specific. Kinda of reminds me of JWinsider. But then again, birds of a feather!! Admin & Librarian. 😉

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Coming from a long-winded insane person that converted to accept apostasy to further his attacks and hate of the Org, it seems as waste of internet space if people are going to believe such an insane person.

But that's what this website is designed for, Apostates false, misleading, and hateful rhetoric.

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Every statement you make just shows how totally divorced from Reality you are.

That's what Narcissistic Personality Disorder IS.

If you were proven wrong a HUNDRED times on any one subject with hard FACTS, you would still believe what you believe, and EVERYTHING that disagrees with your world view would be wrong.

 

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On 10/19/2019 at 9:03 AM, Allen_Smith said:

2 Corinthians 10:10-11

Context: Paul's Apostolic Authority

10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is unimpressive, and his speaking is of no account.” 11Such people should consider that what we are in our letters when absent, we will be in our actions when present.

If you can’t understand scripture, why continue to “slander” 8 men you know nothing about in their personal devotion to the one true God, and how the commission of the Holy Spirit works and who God chooses.

 

You really didn't answer my question.  The scriptures you gave me speak of Paul.  Now, you seem to be comparing the GB with an apostle.  Sir, this is impossible.  Paul was an inspired prophet who is part of the foundation of God’s Temple.  1 Cor 12:28; Eph 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

 The GB are “inspired” false prophets, and part of the foundation of an organization.  Matt 16:18; 7:24-27; Rev 13:11-17

On 10/19/2019 at 9:03 AM, Allen_Smith said:

Get over yourself!

I believe it is the GB that need to get over themselves.  I understand that they are now to be called "faithful and prudent".  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  This is really an interesting turn, since scripture reveals even more clearly, who they are.

  Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
    who put darkness for light,
    and light for darkness;
who put bitter for sweet,
    and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
    and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe to those who are mighty to drink wine,
    and champions at mixing strong drink;
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
    but deny justice for the innocent!  (Matt 24:48-51)

24 Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble,
    and as the dry grass sinks down in the flame,
    so their root shall be as rottenness,
    and their blossom shall go up as dust,
because they have rejected the law of Yahweh of Armies,
    and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.  Isa 5:20-24

 

 

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Why bother to answer - this person is not interested in reason. 

Most opposers of JW who have insurmountable hate for the organization have OCD - not the real kind but similar because they repeat the same hate over and over and twist scripture to suit their ends). It seems they are consumed by one thought only - like Cain.  Most of those kind here have this same attitude and mindset. God himself warned Cain about the bad condition in his heart but did he stop hating his brother?  He had no self-control and went ahead to premedidated murder of his brother.

They do not give reasonable replys but meander on and on - or point to silly things which only end in a point of hate...... not worth wasting time on illogical and emotional  postings.

If she were of the anointed  she would be out there preaching about the only solution  jehovah has for mankind - his kingdom in the hands of his son Christ Jesus.... not be angry about the fact that she was not offered the opportunity to have a  following.

 

 

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On 10/19/2019 at 11:17 PM, Allen_Smith said:

I don't recommend books that have received negative input by people not in good standing and have a negative view of the Watchtower.

Once again, I have no idea what you are talking about. “Dear Mr. Putin” has 3 sections—now 4, because I added one for updates.

Nobody here has had any “input” on any of them except me. Part 1 is simply a real-time retelling of events in Russia as they unfolded. Input came from monitoring news reports, plus my own experiences throughout the letter-writing campaign.

Initially, Part 1 was all I had in mind. In time, I began to envision more. Included in the introduction is both the charting of an added role and a caution that it was not for everyone:

Does Kuraev really mean to suggest that prosecution presented no intelligible arguments at the Supreme Court trial? An observer of the trial might well think it. He might well wonder just what does the government have against Jehovah’s Witnesses? There must be something, but it is not stated. At one point the judge asked the prosecution (the Ministry of Justice) whether it had prepared for the case. A decision had been plainly made somewhere from on high and it would fall upon the judge to rubber-stamp it. Of course, he did, perhaps because he wanted to remain a judge. The actual reasons behind anti-Witness hostility were never presented. So I have presented them in Part II, along with how they might be defended.

Some Witnesses, truth be told, will be uncomfortable with Part II and might best be advised to skip over it. They will love the idea of defending the faith but may be unaware of the scope of the attacks made against it, some of which are truly malicious. Deciding to sit out this or that controversy will earn them taunts of “sticking one’s head in the sand” from detractors, but it is exactly what Jesus recommends, as will be seen. Not everyone must immerse themselves in every “fact,” for many of them will turn out to be facts of Mark Twain’s variety: facts that “ain’t so.” You can’t do everything, and most persons choose to focus on matters most directly relevant to their lives.  Part II thereafter rolls into Part III, which suggests an offense—not a legal offense, but an overall moral one.

Okay?  So I made significant effort to protect any Witnesses from “apostate” thinking. Go to Part 2 if you want, I told them, but know what you are getting into. Similar passages are included in “TrueTom vs the Apostates!” This is done deliberately, out of respect for counsel from the slave about not engaging with “apostates.” Go there if you must have an answer to the unsavory things being said these days on major media. But know that you are crossing a line of counsel as you do it.

Counsel is counsel. It is not law. What is law is the law of love and the corollary that closely follows about not causing dissention or divisions in the congregation. For that reason, one must give serious thought as to whether it is wise to hang out with those determined to shoot down the faith. It really is no more than 1 Corinthians 15:33–“do not be misled—bad associations spoils useful habits.” But “apostates” have caught the ear of the media in some cases and they drive much of the current opposition. It was even true in Russia. Kicking back at negative articles in the media almost cannot be done without some interaction with those who inspire them, and some of them conveniently hang out here.

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For that reason, one must give serious thought as to whether it is wise to hang out with those determined to shoot down the faith. It really is no more than 1 Corinthians 15:33–“do not be misled—bad associations spoils useful habits.”

In my opinion I wouldn't necessarily say answering, or investigating opposers claims constitutes hanging out with them. To quote J. Reuben Clark "If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought be harmed". We should be confident that our beliefs can stand up to scrutiny, if we don't have that confidence, then that is a problem.

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Bad association DOES spoil useful habits.  My confidence us not in myself but in christ and jehovah to assist me to remain faithful even in small things.

I see here in this forum a level of secularism that influences those affected by it to a level where wrong is no longer wrong.  Their perception of right and wrong is more secular than close to biblical compliance.

5 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

seeing the hate and disunity

You forget some are apostates and are no longer JWs..... so equate all as JWs is incorrect.  

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12 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You forget some are apostates and are no longer JWs..... so equate all as JWs is incorrect.  

He forgets also that there really aren’t any typical Witnesses here. Everyone here (for any length of time) falls well outside the Bell curve in one way or another. Plus, one never knows who is just a pretender.

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6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Nobody here has had any “input” on any of them except me. Part 1 is simply a real-time retelling of events in Russia as they unfolded. Input came from monitoring news reports, plus my own experiences throughout the letter-writing campaign.

TTH, I would go back to past comments and say it again with a straight face. Even I recall, when you mentioned JWinsider as the only one giving input.

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14 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most opposers of JW who have insurmountable hate for the organization have OCD - not the real kind but similar because they repeat the same hate over and over and twist scripture to suit their ends). It seems they are consumed by one thought only - like Cain.  Most of those kind here have this same attitude and mindset. God himself warned Cain about the bad condition in his heart but did he stop hating his brother?  He had no self-control and went ahead to premedidated murder of his brother.

People who hate, readily “kill” their own brother for rejecting their personal misguided teachings.   This is what disfellowshipping is, a premeditated move by the GB.  Rev 13:11,15

“Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.” 1 John 3:12

People who love, warn of the “killer” residing among those whom they love; since they have felt and seen the killer in action. Matt 7:15-20

“Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.”  1 John 3:15

Once those, who have been “killed” for rejecting the liar and his false teachings, turn to the living light of Christ, they are motivated to guide others to him; not to themselves, as the GB clearly has accomplished. Matt 24:48-51

 “And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.”  1 John 3:23

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.”  1 John 3:15 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

If she were of the anointed  she would be out there preaching about the only solution  jehovah has for mankind - his kingdom in the hands of his son Christ Jesus.... not be angry about the fact that she was not offered the opportunity to have a  following.

Again, God's servants during the last days are to preach to their own people - to "Israel".   Matt 10:21-23; Rev 1:1-3; 11:1-3; 18:4-8

The only solution to receiving the "crown of life" is to turn to Christ and reject captivity to an idol; the servitude and love given to an organization.  Rev 2:20; 9:20; 3:18; 2:10  Think of how many faithful ones there were, from the first century until the organization appeared, who followed only the Father and Christ.   Matt 6:24; Rev 13:1,4-10, 16,17   So, how is it that those who choose to do the same today, are spiritually "killed"?  

Who, is the ultimate killer?  Isa 33:1; Rev 13:1,2,15; 2 Thess 2:9-12

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Foreigner said:

TTH, I would go back to past comments and say it again with a straight face. Even I recall, when you mentioned JWinsider as the only one giving input.

@JW Insider did not write TrueTom v Apostates. He did not write Dear Mr. Putin. I wrote them. There were portions that I forwarded to him for comment. To that extent, he had input. His comments were most helpful and every time I ignored them I came to regret it. I got all excited about a statistical factoid from the follow-up Aussie case study. He told me it wasn’t so watertight as I had imagined. He was right and I downgraded it to a suggestive pointer. 

He said that there were a ton of errors—typos and punctuation atrocities—in the manuscript and I was later aghast at how abundant they were. It took me forever to get them out. Even now there are probably a few—but it is time for new things.

Even his instinct about my describing the old bound volumes as the family gods—bulky, toted everywhere, and very seldom used—I came to agree with. I was just being self-indulgent, and no one had ever described them that way but me. Why put anyone off unnecessarily?

His biggest contribution was when I ran by him beforehand the letter that I submitted to the Philly Inquirer in response to their first of what proved to be four incendiary articles. This was a big moment for me. The topic was white-hot, I had never seen anyone not run from it, and I didn’t want to mess it up. For all I knew, they might print it. I respected his insights and incorporated most of them. That letter became the core of what ultimately became a chapter in TrueTom vs the Apostates, “Four Incendiary Articles.”

    Hello guest!

So yes, he has good judgement and instincts about what I consulted him for. Yes, his advice proved valuable. Yes, I am grateful to him for it. No, he did not write any of either book.

Our cooperative role may expand. We came across The Librarian, that old biddy, bending over dusting Gibbon’s “Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire” on a lower shelf in her library. JWI and I toppled the entire bookshelf on her and squashed her flat. You should not expect to hear from her anymore except for some automated posts she may have previously submitted. 

I planted a story that a California law was going to kill the internet. Admin fell for it, and he sold the entire forum to me for only a dollar. JWI agreed to come in for just 50 cents. If I let him do his thing, going on and on and on about some egghead things that I don’t really care about—and after all, he did help me with the bookshelf—I will gain his good will forever.

Yes, it is chronology he is into. But he writes at such length that everyone falls asleep except for other eggheads. He has done the research to expound on what he does, as others have done the research to disagree with him, even the semi-resident titan who doesn’t wish to be described that way. I gather that our view is not the one that predominates in the mainstream scholarly world, but this does not unduly concern me. I am too used to headlines that read: “Everything you thought you knew about such-and-such is wrong.” Matters of scientific scholarship can and have turned on a dime. Besides, even if his most drastic thought proved true, it would amount to no more that a (colossal) misread of the bus schedule. It would not mean that the bus is not coming.

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6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@JW Insider did not write TrueTom v Apostates. He did not write Dear Mr. Putin. I wrote them. There were portions that I forwarded to him for comment. To that extent, he had input. His comments were most helpful and every time I ignored them I came to regret it. I got all excited about a statistical factoid from the follow-up Aussie case study. He told me it wasn’t so watertight as I had imagined. He was right and I downgraded it to a suggestive pointer.

I don’t believe anyone has said JWinsider wrote those books and that your grammar is lousy, even though your gang seems to "harp" on it, including you as I recall with a few people here, that's rich so let’s get off that deception and not change the subject. I believe the point is, your weak assertion that a witness not in good standing gave you input and you lied about it.

Now you seem to imply you regret not listening to a person that goes against the bible principle and has unchristian conduct to say the least as his strength.

I think that’s where “birds of a feather flock together” surmises. I don’t know who’s worse when it comes to deception.

But then again, writers do have to stick together, especially ones that are not important and corrupt just like one from the other post.

You are also correct when you state none of you here are true witnesses. If I didn’t know better, “Anna” quoted from a former member of the LDS in her remarks. I wonder if Anna and JWinsider are LDS disguising themselves as witnesses. Speculation, maybe far-fetched, maybe not. That certainly would answer a lot of questions, wouldn’t it? If I recall, JWinsider once said he couldn’t get enough of Ellen G. White quotes here.

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3 hours ago, Foreigner said:

believe the point is, your weak assertion that a witness not in good standing gave you input and you lied about it.

That is all TTH ever does is lie. I am sick of it. He is a disgusting despicable offal-like creature masquerading as a human bean. Yes, “bean” is not a mistake. It is deliberate. I cannot bring myself to call him a human being, he is that repulsive. 

He reeks with B.O and bad breath. And gas? Tell me about it.

Even those of other species know it. Recently I happened upon him walking his pet pig. “Hey, where did you get the pig?” I greeted him.

”I found him at the marketplace,” the pig replied.

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On 10/21/2019 at 11:20 PM, Matthew9969 said:

ex-witnessIt's pretty easy to tell who are the die hard jw

Good!   You forgot to add that many make this choice by free will and after studying many religions, philosophies, history and darwinism....... some do this in their own time.  It is not a blind following or indoctrination as many opposers summarize...... our eyes are open when we make this choice! Some ex-witnesses did not do this.... use their time wisely.... that is why they are ex-wiwitnesses.

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On 10/21/2019 at 10:47 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

He said that there were a ton of errors—typos and punctuation atrocities—in the manuscript and I was later aghast at how abundant they were. It took me forever to get them out.

It was a visit to this place that made me do whatever was necessary:

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It was a visit to this place that made me do whatever was necessary:

It's good you can insult yourself TTH. If it was one in our group your hypocrisy would be apparent when someone would log in to find the word “Banned” deleted because of faceless witnesses not in good standing like Anna, JWinsider, JTR that even Matthew9969 considers “lukewarm”. They are not lukewarm but an affront to false prophets.

Now show the world by censoring, deleting, or banning me, as is accustomed by you, people here. You can tell the truth about yourself, but others can’t.

Remember, Anna hates bad grammar just like the pathetic commentaries made by JWinsider, JTR to make light of those mistakes as though anyone really cared about those pathetic comments.

Let it go author, you’re not fooling anyone. You, Anna, JTR, JWinsider are too predictable now.

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7 hours ago, Foreigner said:

It's good you can insult yourself TTH. ...Let it go author, you’re not fooling 

How can he not insult himself, that slopbucket of maggot intestines? He writes like a cow. Of him, the verse might read: “For they say: “His letters are like forcefeeding to all who must endure them, his presence in person is weak, his speech contemptible, and that goes double for his writing.”

Be glad that you only know him from afar. He gave a talk at our hall and afterwards someone said—yes, I heard it myself—“Brother, when I hear you speak, I marvel at the wisdom of Jehovah’s organization in shortening public talks from 45 minutes to 30!”

And he has the gumption to come right here on the World News Media Forum and hawk his crummy book?! This one: 

    Hello guest!

“TrueTom vs the Apostates!” he calls it? HA! The real title should be “TrueTom IS an Apostate!”

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Most Africans I know speak 5 languages (even more), and I have found that many swedes speak at least 3 languages or more at a high level. Usually those who speak only one language will judge others on their language skills. My eyes are really bad now and my impatience grows with my arthritic fingers. I really dont care if my writing is pure, perfect, prestine or up to some other person's standards. Language can be misapplied to be a gauge of intelligence or prestige. In this regard I am a rebel..... I really don't care if I make a mistake or people think I am uneducated. I need no other person's approval to exist or give my opinion.

Look at yourselves - your squabbling is a give-away.

Reminds me of the period I was the senior publicity officer for the national orchestra.  Some classical singers really think themselves above the rest just because they can sing opera or oratorio..... and orchestra members vie with each other  egotistically.  BUT most of them are as immoral as the worst popstars....with scandals, deceit and competitiveness. 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Look at yourselves - your squabbling is a give-away.

You might already be aware that TTH is trying to make fun of the excess squabbling by squabbling with himself. 99.99 percent chance, in my opinion, that @Arguis Maxus is just another account that @TrueTomHarley has created for his own "satirical" purposes.

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

TTH is trying to make fun of the excess squabbling by squabbling with himself. 99.99 percent chance, in my opinion, that @Arguis Maxus is just another account that @TrueTomHarley has created for his own "satirical" purposes.

Don’t be naive. My writing doesn’t resemble his in the slightest degree. He writes like a castrated toad with all the analytical skills of a fruit fly. He boasts that he has identified one of the contributors here as crocodile, and the only proof he has is that another ridiculed him for his crocodile tears.

He is a blaggard who uses the science of speech more to blackmail and swindle than teach. I made it the ticklish business of mine to once and for all eradicate this swine.

I happen to know that they had to reshoot that Jurassic Park scene repeatedly because every time the woman reached into the gigantic dinosaur turd, she accidentally pulled out one of his books—this one:

    Hello guest!

That is exactly where they all belong, but it was irrelevant to the movie

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

eloquence is confused with competence. There is very littl

I know of mathematical geniuses who have dyslexia..... so never measure other people at your own standard.

I speak several languages but I think I only write one competently and maybe eloquently..... and it is not English. We are not all writers.  Language is primarily for communication, so when it fulfils this purpose (conveys a thought) then it is sufficient.  

When one uses a language in an expert and innovative way, then only can it become art...... but not all people are artists. 

 

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There's always a hate group linked with any group of people, organization, school, etc. Even for us in the truth. We already had a run in with ExJws in the past and the county and it's people were on our side. Not to mentioned they turned a non religious dude until an extremely protective defender who now sees all ExJws as enemies. Thankfully his girlfriend ruminates the tension this dude has.

And theres neutral people who just wants to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance, the funniest thing a month or two ago we had a Spiderman cosplayer (a guy in the Spider-Verse suit) asking for a NWT Bible and was curious about JWs to one of the brothers who were outside.

With the things going on now, I can care less about hate groups because they want progress or solutions and go about these things in a way that makes them look like the bad guys. Not to mention the one track mindedness mentality they rock on the daily. 

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1 Peter 5:8 English Standard Version (ESV)

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Your governing body has stated they are still roaming about searching for truth, so someone has to warn others of satans use of the jehovahs witnesses to lead people away from God. So some of us aren't really opposer's, we are warning the world of satans schemes.

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@Matthew9969 And yet Peter Parker aka Spiderman recieved a NWT Bible translation in Modern English and got a bit of insight on who Jehovah God is and Christians who follow Jesus Christ.

Satan? Mislead? Oh Dios mío... 😑 Someone must've stolen the apple pie you left by the window.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Page 30.... and we still opposing each other :))))

There is a time for everything.... a time to debate and a time to stop.   A time to bury the hatchet and get on with life....

There is nothing as sad as those who confident in their ignorance.....  Speak to Jews.... I have preached to many..... and you will find they know the JHWH (tetragrammaton) but do not pronounce it.  One accused me of  appropriating the Jewish god. ...... 

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On 10/26/2019 at 3:54 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That goes back to the old adage that people who play the violin often have OTHER nasty habits.

But not violinist have nasty habits, some of them are good people, some who have tragic upbringings and or was formerly someone who was a nasty person who turned over a new leaf. 

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You guys are getting too personal...... really .  It does not bring honour to jehovah  if we (myself included) get personal.  It serves no edifying purpose....

To see words as "how dare you"  etc indicates a spirit of arrogance.  God can speak for himself..... he does not need us to show indignation on his behalf...... just like muslims who think they have the right to kill for god./ or in his name.

On 10/17/2019 at 1:34 PM, Witness said:

was a wallflower in the organization.  I

Not prepared to only preach.... I understand completely.  

You and Pearl.... where do you go for meetings as instructed by Jehovah. Where is the nation you belong to as stipulated in Isaaih 2:2-4....... a nation which comprises people if all tribes on the earth. .....? And prays to Jehovah....... and accepts christ as only a man of flesh?....... and preaches world-wide in fulfillment of Matt 24:14

While I u understand the imperfections of humans (GB are humans as you are) I also understand that jehovah worked with Israel before Jesus was born...... and they did many terrible things.. 

You spend so much time on here breaking down those who serve jehovah..... no building up. Using the word of God as a misleading weapon. This is NOT the fruit of the spirit from God.  I am not deceivied by you no matter how sincere you may personally feel. 

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33 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is far far far easier—and more alluring—to tear down than it is to build up.

However, it is more noble to do the latter.

I can agree.

But, we all know also this. If you want to build new house on the same place where is old one, you have to do first step - tear down the old - and make place for new. 

Same is with ideology, doctrines, beliefs and faith. You have to tear down all what is old, poorly built and not good enough ... than there will be place (in our heads) to introduce new and better. 

Illustration with house/head is correct.  In verbatim situation perhaps you can choose some other place for building new house. But you can't replace own head with new head. :))) So, all battles are in our heads. Perhaps all what is received stay forever in some corner of our mind. But every old idea have to be disassembled into small pieces, into such small pieces that they can never be assembled again. 

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

than there will be place (in our heads) to introduce new and better. 

It would be nice if you could provide a preview of this. 

I see no evidence of the “new and better,” only an emphasis on demolishing what is. 

In fact, that is why JWs became JWs in the first place; they tired of the “new and better” promises that always turned out to be but empty words.

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5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But, we all know also this. If you want to build new house on the same place where is old one, you have to do first step - tear down the old - and make place for new. 

I can agree in certain aspects of this comment. The 16th century protestant reformation began a good concept to break away from the papacy and the church fathers distinct preservation of the old standard of keeping the bible from the public.

It was unfortunate that the dominant church sought to execute those like Martin Luther and William Tyndale that made any attempts to have the people read and understand the bible for themselves to see for themselves the mistakes of the church. I personally respect Tyndale for that brave move that eventually got him killed by the church.

Another place I can agree with tearing down the old house to build a new house is exactly what Russell did in his day. He decided to forgo his parent’s teachings and that of the ranking Christendom of his day to start from scratch to understand the bible as Jesus spoke of it to the first century Christian.

A revision to the view of the reformer movement but with a better understanding that is placed before today’s society.

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9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It would be nice if you could provide a preview of this. 

I see no evidence of the “new and better,” only an emphasis on demolishing what is. 

In fact, that is why JWs became JWs in the first place; they tired of the “new and better” promises that always turned out to be but empty words.

That is because i am not source or medium to provide you religious spiritual light you looking for. As ex member of your church i have been in position you are now. "New and better" coming from Organization of people who take a lead. And as we all know these men do err, they are imperfect and are not inspired. And they proves that on daily basis.

Here i will connect another comment:

6 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Another place I can agree with tearing down the old house to build a new house is exactly what Russell did in his day. He decided to forgo his parent’s teachings and that of the ranking Christendom of his day to start from scratch to understand the bible as Jesus spoke of it to the first century Christian.

 

A revision to the view of the reformer movement but with a better understanding that is placed before today’s society.

Russell was "rebellious" and looking for something "new and better". And he find something of that in Adventist teachings. And he accepted something what was "new and better", in his eyes and thinking. Because that what was "new and better" for him already existed in another "false religion" he latter left because of disagreements with established structures and doctrines. 

And what Russell have done? He moved some "new and better Adventist's stuff" into his movement, updated some old thoughts, made some modification, brought some "new" ideas. When he found, how there is no "hell" in Bible, did he introduce "new and better"? If people around believe in hell and you say how hell not existing, is that "new"? Maybe to some degree for them, but in fact no. You just say, make claim how hell not existing and said something Opposite to first common idea.   

What was replacement for "hell"? Death in Armageddon. Excommunication from congregation. What was purpose of hell? To explain people how they have to be good and not make God displeased and angry. 

In both cases, in religion with "hell", and in religion without "hell", we have expressed need to keep members to be in "fear" of God (and of human who operate in the name of God, too). And here you have how with time Religion of any sort, even Russell's WT Society operate and have not "new and better", but working in same frame under different terminology and scene.  

Teaching flock to be good is common task to all religion. And teaching them to be loyal to church they belong is also not something new.

 

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11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

t would be nice if you could provide a preview of this. 

I see no evidence of the “new and better,” only an emphasis on demolishing what is. 

How many times on this forum have I said that the OLD system of justice, set in place by God, and used successfully for several THOUSAND years, where all hearings and trials on matters civil and religious were held in the City Gates of every town and city in Israel ... where Jehovah's Jewish Witnesses were actually WITNESSES to the inner workings of their ruling government ... not only in a general sense, but in EACH SPECIFIC CASE where adjudication was required?

A dozen times?

 We HAD a system that worked perfectly, ... where all city residents could watch the proceedings, and speak up from the back of the crowd, if they felt the need to ... where all witnesses called to testify could be challenged by anybody IN the crowd ( who might know the truth if they were lying) ... and where the administration of Justice in all matters by judges was completely open and subject to instant review by trial participants, local and out-of-town Jews, and even the passing foreigner.

There is only one problem with the system we have now ... where trials are held in secret, no outsiders hear the testimony,  where no recordings are allowed, and no person can have an advocate or legal representation, and even the REASON for banishment and expulsion is kept secret from everyone except the "insiders".

IT'S TYRANNY, .... for the express and deliberately DISGUISED reason to consolidate fear, power, and obedience to the Governing Body and their assigns, and completely remove that chain of command from any objective review, and ANY ACCOUNTABILITY WHATSOEVER.

.   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

But I got news for you Bubba TTH .... the times, they are a-changin. 

That which has been kept in secrecy is being exposed, and those policies and procedures that have been arbitrary, capricious, and contrary to the administration of Justice and Mercy, is rotting from within, in the light of the information age we are now in.

I hope to live to see the day when all the things we have that are REALLY True, good, worthy and honorable are not contaminated  by organizational self-serving power and money grabs.

Currently, the GB has no accountability to anyone on Earth, BECAUSE they cannot be fired.

Jehovah watches as we, just in the times of ancient Israel, his organization on Earth was corrupted, and before he lowered the boom on them, he allowed it to increase for centuries.

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

So you will not know the difference between a "Kangaroo Court", a "Star Chamber Court", and a being "Sent to Coventry", and not understand the nuances and implications of those systems of governance .... among many, many other things.

...and so that they can rule without ANY accountability, with COMPLETE impunity .....

..... as no one understands, or will recognize the difference.

 

 

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16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I see no evidence of the “new and better,

 

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

...and so that they can rule without ANY accountability, with COMPLETE impunity .....

..... as no one understands, or will recognize the difference.

 

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10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

secret, no outsiders hear the testimony,

If you would like the sordid details of how you seduced another man's wife to be a matter of public interest and your private shame to be bandied about, please do not think that everyone else would like it so. I think it is merciful in most cases that no one gets to know the sordid details

If you would like your details of how you defrauded your brother of a few thousand pounds and showed no compassion to be publicly announced- then why did you do these things in secret in the first place and did not do it openly.....

If you.... I can go on and on...... do you get the picture? 

 

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If people around believe in hell and you say how hell not existing, is that "new"?

I think you need to study history - especially church history. Then you will understand how this fits in. Why argue about something you do not understand or do not have good knowledge of? 

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45 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think you need to study history - especially church history. Then you will understand how this fits in. Why argue about something you do not understand or do not have good knowledge of?

Partially you are right about my knowing church history.

But tell me, did i get it right if i say, how every Organized Religion, including WT Society and JW organization, doing everything to make obedient members who will not questioning doctrines and leadershipregardless of various and different doctrines that are specific for each of them (religion)?

If i am right in this perception and conclusion, than this is quite enough for/about "knowing church history". :))

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If you are talking about me, Arauna, I would like to hear those stories.. although it is written as an accusation to me personally, I assume you mean in a general sense about anybody.

There is a saying in America, from an old TV show, that "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time".

Secrecy is the breeding place of tyranny, both petty and gross, and the root of many injurious things. It covers up tyrannies, incompetence and malfeasance .... and protects  judges from any accountability.  It also hides things that SHOULD be made public, so that the general populace is in fear of SPECIFIC actions and consequences.

Bad judges should have to have consequences equally punitive to their bad judgements.

I think the system Jehovah set up thousands of years ago  in ancient Israel is ..oh... what's the word I want to use ... oh yeah! .... PERFECT.

The system we have now was made up from the fears of New York Lawyers.

Having it done correctly, and having gross , embarrassing sins and crimes made public and notorious is a VERY good deterrent ...all by itself.

Oh, by the way ... my first wife was seduced by another Brother, circa 1974, and he got away with if for YEARS, and was in good standing in the congregation married to her, because nobody realized what was really going on.  When I blew the lid off of it with certified letters to all the congregations in the Richmond Virginia congregations, and New York ... only then was he disfellowshipped.  Interestingly enough ... because our names are very phonetically similar, when it was announced  I got blamed for it in about half the congregations I had gone to, as I was the "loose cannon", and he was a Pioneer, and ex-bethelite.

That's what you get when you have secrecy.

A totally screwed up Justice system.

 

 

 

Red Pill Blue Pill.jpg

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15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What was replacement for "hell"? Death in Armageddon. Excommunication from congregation. What was purpose of hell? To explain people how they have to be good and not make God displeased and angry.

I must be missing something. Wouldn’t this in effect be a cause for ex-members? I don’t believe Russell had the power to replace “hell” with “death in Armageddon” as indicated. He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ. Each church ran independent of each other. The elders were voted in. That meant, any church could set its own vision of doctrine which many did to some degree not with the advent movement but it's perception of time prophecy.

That Church started to bring back what was inevitable as death in Armageddon for those that rebelled against God as taught by his son Jesus. I don’t believe Jesus mixed his words to mean anything else but the survival of those loyal to God by faith and obedience.

Excommunication was placed by Jesus words, not to be influenced by those that opposed God’s command and those that denied the new covenant of Christ which indeed happen in Jesus time.

Can you explain yourself a little more, on what you mean by rebellious coming from an ex-member of any church?

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On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

You and Pearl.... where do you go for meetings as instructed by Jehovah.

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling (“gathering together”) of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.  Heb 10:24,25

When you know people all over the globe, we do the best we can.    

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matt 18:20

I think we’ve got it covered. As anointed “priests”, and under one Head, Christ, do we need elders to teach us?  If only the anointed in the organization would realize they are the ones who should be teaching the elders.  Yet, this would never happen under a wicked slave’s rule.  Matt 24:48-51

Mal 2:7 - "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts."

Heb 8:10 – “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

Where is the nation you belong to as stipulated in Isaaih 2:2-4....... a nation which comprises people if all tribes on the earth. .....?

Are you thinking this refers to the organization?

Isaiah 2:2-3:

“ In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple

The Temple is comprised of…God and Christ…and the “144,000” priests, as the “dwelling place” of Spirit (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) (Rev 21:22)

 will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.

Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.(“Israel”)
He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

If you remember that the “law” is written on the hearts of the Temple “living stones”/priests…and that they are to teach the people God’s law; then perhaps you can see how important the faithfulness and recognition of the priesthood is to God.  It is much more important to Him than to the elders or to the GB who counsel them to remain separate, not to bond together.   I will echo James’ word, “tyranny”, and I’ll add that tyranny has at its root, evil intentions.   Satan’s evil intentions are to destroy the remaining members of the “woman’s seed” in the last days. ( Rev 12:17; 20:9,7,8; 16:14,16) This is why the organization cannot operate perfectly as it happened in instances within the nation of Israel.   God’s teaching mouthpiece in the anointed priesthood is silenced.  If anyone perceives this, they should leave the oppression and “trampling” of the saints; and turn directly to Christ.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 17:37; Rev 3:18; 18:4-8


Exod 19:5,6 - “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenantthen out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne
    will shelter them with his presence.  Rev 7:9,13-15

God is preparing a repentant priesthood (Zech 1:3; Mal 3:7); cleansed and washed with the living water of Christ’s truth, to serve the needs of His children to come in the Kingdom.  That, is Zion. (Zech 13:9; 4:7) Not a corrupt organization where God’s laws have been broken many times over.  Not an organization built with the world’s riches, preserving its precious investments to the extent of robbing victims of justice. (2 Cor 6:14) Not an organization that defies God's decrees pertaining to His priesthood. (Eze 44:6-9; Num 3:10)  What you believe in, is a counterfeit of the true Zion.   I am amazed that JWs don’t see this.  I am amazed that darkness has settled into your hearts so thickly, that the light of truth escapes your notice.

Dear Arauna, a few years ago, we discussed the elder body rule vs. the anointed priesthood.  You may not remember.  You were not as, should I say, caustic, with your responses at that time.  I wonder if it isn’t the physical pain of arthritis that causes you to be rather hard core today.  I understand what pain and age can do to a person’s tolerance.  I just ask you, to do research on the early priesthood.  When it was time to build the tabernacle, Moses was told, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” MOUNT ZION!  Heb 8:5  It was a “copy and shadow” of what God was to establish through his Son. 

Today, the temple tabernacle is being built with God’s “special possession”.  1 Pet 2:5,9  There is no more earthly "temple" or earthly "organization".   The Temple is built with called, chosen, and ultimately found faithful priests (Rev 17:14) - organized under Christ their Head, as his Bride.  The anointed are the Body of Christ, not every JW.  Christ has chosen his Bride. We do not do the choosing.    1 Cor 12:27,18,28; Eph 4:11,12; 1 Cor 10:16,17; Rev 14:4

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

and accepts christ as only a man of flesh?.

I accept Christ as a glorified King of kings in Heaven, as the first of the "new creation", both human and spirit. John 3:6;1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:17; Rev 1:5; 19:16

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

I am not deceivied by you no matter how sincere you may personally feel. 

In the last days, God's "saints" and companions are deceived. Matt 24:24,22; Rev 13:1,2, 4-12,14-17; 2 Thess 2:1-4;9-12

 

I'm taking the liberty to post this link, and thank you, Librarian.

"The Rise of Zion" - 

    Hello guest!

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7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

I don’t believe Russell had the power to replace “hell” with “death in Armageddon” as indicated. He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

* bold words mine

To some extent, other individual has a power over us in a measure we give him a power over us. In some other cases we can't do almost nothing about that. 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

on what you mean by rebellious coming from an ex-member of any church?

In continue, about what was said about power, is issue of rebellion or resistance. Russell was not, as books say about him (WT publications),  satisfied with his own religion and doctrines. In other words, his religion and doctrines of his religion had power over him and he didn't like that. For what ever reason he had. He showed rebelling and resistance to all that what made him unsatisfied, unhappy, unanswered ...etc. 

He has been in process of abandoning "old and bad" things and in same time looking for "new and better". He, in fact coming to be "an apostate", in context of what this word mean. A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

In the eyes of his parents, Church and congregational members, he was, in generalviewed as "rebellious son" and as "apostate". Is that bad? 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

You say, and many say how Russell has not been, because of his action, rebellious and apostate. But on contrary, he had a power to go one level up, and he is considered, in WT Society and JW organization, as brave young man and truth seeker. But his past church was already  "had the truth". Why he wanted "truth above the truth"?? :)))

See, how  things are the same today with WT Society and JW organization and their members who leave "religion of their parents".  They are not "apostates" in context WT Society want to showed them (as bad and devil inspired individuals). They are "truth seekers"..... with various and different outcomes.  

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On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

We HAD a system that worked perfectly, ... where all city residents could watch the proceedings, and speak up from the back of the crowd, 

I think you have watched too much Perry Mason. Was it really that way?

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and no person can have an advocate or legal representation

So you feel each party in a judicial case should have his own lawyer, taking a page from the adversarial legal system of today?

“When both sides properly prepare a case, the adversary system can effectively guarantee the revelation of all the facts bearing on an issue. The more experience you have with it, the more you’ll find it a surprisingly scientific method of trial preparation.” — Perry Mason.  (Season 5, Ep 13 The Case of the Renegade Refugee)

Come now, that is not a religious statement? Thrust upon us by a new world of “science” that has despaired of finding impartial judges the like of Exodus 18:26: “capable men fearing God, trustworthy men hating dishonest profit?”

The reason they are hard to find is that the world embraces values to the contrary. Not so in the Christian organization. I will take the congregation justice system any day, which only deals with the spiritual matters that are of no concern of secular courts. But a hostile world tries to frame some of these spiritual matters as grist for the legal mill.

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That which has been kept in secrecy is being exposed, and those policies and procedures that have been arbitrary, capricious, and contrary to the administration of Justice and Mercy, is rotting from within, in the light of the information age we are now in.

What is happening is that those who refuse discipline are airing their complaints to a world that despises discipline and thereby finding common sympathy. It brings to mind the trademark of those describe in 2 Peter as “apostate”—they “hate” discipline. 

You don’t think that those who came out on the short end of the world’s court system don’t also complain about how they were abused and unjustly sold down the river? It is human nature to do so in a system that downplays responsibilities and upplays rights.

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

But I’ve got news for you, Bubba TTH- the time’s they are a’changin.

Yes, Bubba. The effort today is to hinder those wanting to stay separate from the world—ideally, even making it illegal to do so.

Several Bible statements would outrage the “anti-cult”-driven legal climate of today:

“But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11). The Bible writer would be challenged legally today for trying to “control” people; who is he to tell them who they can eat with?

“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 10)  Ditto. He is “controlling people.” Let them greet whoever they want, even those whom HE finds “wicked.”

“It is necessary to shut their mouths, because these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.” (Titus 1:11) Oh? It is “necessary” to restrict someone’s free speech for the sake of “enforcing” your religion? See you in court, Paul.

From time to time, the earthly organization rewords something—like the disfellowshipping announcement or the questions for baptism—to make clear that members are voluntarily adhering to Bible counsel rather than, as opposers try to present it, suffering the bullying of an “evil” “oppressive” “corporation.” It may fail in this one day, because the intent of those hostile to Christianity is to make the Bible verses themselves illegal, or at least make it illegal for anyone to actually follow them.

The goal is to deprive Christians of organization. That way they can more easily be assimilated into the greater word. This is framed hypocritically, even obnoxiously, as an attempt to liberate them. It is no more better realized today than in Russia, where Jehovah’s Witnesses are not illegal, but only their organization is. ‘It’s not the foot-soldier they want to kill off. It’s only the generals that must go. That way the foot-soldier can more easily switch sides—and he will be all the happier for it,’ so the thinking goes. Of course, a scheme so devious cannot be comprehended by the average person, and the authorities simply feel free to beat up on any Witness.

The goal to “liberate” Christians from the organization they form is more advanced in Russia, but it proceeds along the same path in Western lands. “Liberate” them into what?

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

Yes. So that the worldwide rot that it has collectively produced does not manifest itself in the congregation.

 

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21 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What is happening is that those who refuse discipline are airing their complaints to a world that despises discipline and thereby finding common sympathy. 

Pretty much like this verse, from this week’s Bible reading:

“They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:5)

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@TrueTomHarley - “They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:5)

 

You certainly promote “organization” as necessary to “discipline” an individual spiritually.  Or so it seems.  Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.  How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?  Is it because men set their ground rules and have convinced you that by following them, you are no part of the world?   It is a corporate entity at its core.  At YOUR level, you see a facade of spiritual security.  1 Thess 5:3  Look deeper Tom, and you will perceive the glaring truth of worldly as well as spiritual, corruption that runs through the veins of the WT; which means, having any part of it, makes one part of the "world".  

The disciplinary rules are outlined in the Bible.  If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.  Jesus told us that this is the approved way of worship.  John 4:10,13,21-24 

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

3 "However, I’m afraid that as the snake deceived Eve by its tricks, so your minds may somehow be lured away from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 When someone comes to you telling about another Jesus whom we didn’t tell you about, you’re willing to put up with it. When you receive a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received earlier, you’re also willing to put up with that. When someone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you already accepted, you’re willing to put up with that too."  2 Cor 11:3,4

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

Come, come. Do you really think Stephen Lett is seducing and persuasive? He follows in the footsteps of ones of the first century who were so “ordinary” and “uneducated” that they were embarrassing in a world centered around “wisdom.” People find it necessary to go to bat for him:

    Hello guest!

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.

Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook. Thus, every time I see Mark Zuckerburg bumbling his way through Congress, flailing away against charges that he is rotting the fabric of society and handing the country over to the Russians, I am shocked—I tell you, shocked!—that you would be bedfellows with him!

The reason humans organize is so they can do things. The motive to deprive them of organization is so they cannot. It is no more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.

Yes. And if we want to serve Christ we organize so as to best bring our God-given talents to bear. Even when the scoundrels organize, God takes note that they do what they could not do as individual loose cannons:

Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built.  Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

Maybe that is what is so odious about a certain branch of Christendom. It is so selfish. “Me & Jesus” is all that counts—being saved. The thought of actually doing anything concrete in service to him turns them right off.

Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work. You get to “enter Jehovah’s rest” when you take him up on his invitation, rest from your own and thus find refreshment in entering a work that is bigger than yourself. It is by “tasting” that you come to know that “Jehovah is good.”

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TTH - "Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook."

That is one of many sources where a person can find “good news”. If FB shut me down, I don’t suffer any loss.  If the Watchtower is shut down; well, you saw Stephen Lett’s face when he stated Russia had seized WT’s material holdings, didn’t you?  I don’t pay into facebook, unlike JW’s who pay into a “preaching work” that requires lawyers to fend off victims of child abuse, or to fight for their material holdings in Russia.  Or, tell their lies in court concerning shunning.  

  My “organization” is the anointed Body of Christ. 

 https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/85226-does-god-have-an-organization/

TTH - "Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work".

Could you be speaking of cart witnessing as bringing God one's "best"?  Oh my.  As if pulling up a chair and saying nothing to people passing by is pleasing to God?

How do you ignore the blatant disrespect the organization has toward the law of the land? Rom 13:1-7 How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world, besides free labor to build whatever they wish?  This doesn't please God!  James 5:1-6  This pleases the ruler of this world. Phil 3:17-19

 

 

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer. You know that I don't think it is the organization itself that keeps us apart from the world. I think of the organization as tainted by the world in many ways, too. It's not a magical "ark of the covenant" to have in our possession. It has been and will be run by humans with many failings. And to be an organization in this world it has to associate with non-believers, and worldly people, in much the same way that Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 5:10) . . .Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world.

That said, an organization though in this world can very clearly promote being "no part of the world." Just as any Christian can associate with non-believers in the world. An organization can put "Read God's Word the Holy Bible Daily" on the side of its factory buildings. It can put Bible messages on carts that are set up all over big cities. It can promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines that show why one should not participate in wars, divisive politics, unclean habits, immoral behavior, etc. Not saying much of anything while sitting/standing next to a cart is only ONE of many methods used to promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines.

I wonder what you think of the American Bible Society, or even other religious Tract Societies of the 19th and 20th centuries. I agree that the actual spiritual organization that Jehovah and Christ sees does not require the physical Watchtower organization, per se. But I also think that if you put a group of Christians together they will certainly begin considering ways to get the good news of the Kingdom out to as many people as they can over a given time period. A pooling of resources so that willing persons can make use of efficiencies of scale in printing and distributing kingdom related messages will be inevitable. This doesn't mean that the organization is the source of salvation, it's just a reflection of the love for the message and the attempt to share it worldwide as efficiently as possible.

I also think it's true that not every Christian will be working at the center of such an organization, nor will all of them believe that they need to participate in the exact same ministry as the average person associated with the organization. Some will look into ways that TV, Internet, and streaming video can be used to get a message promoted. Some will feel more comfortable helping their neighbors in other ways if they don't feel called to any kind of teaching ministry. I believe that even these ones, who may not participate in all recommended aspects of ministry promoted by the organization will still prefer to attend congregations to learn what is taught by others. And I believe that the teachings they will be attracted to with the most Christian appeal will include some of the teachings I mentioned before: no war, no divisive politics, no hellfire, no Trinity, yes to high moral standards, yes to associating with like-minded Christians.

The organization Jehovah and Jesus looks for is invisible, I agree. It includes direct communication with Jehovah in our personal lives (through prayer, study, and our requests for a measure of holy spirit) for guidance, in the same way that the Governing Body directly communicates with Jehovah (through prayer, study, and their requests for a measure of holy spirit). We are not "brought to Christ" through the Governing Body. We are responsible for our own spiritual lives. We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

(Philippians 2:12, 13) . . .keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you, giving you both the desire and the power to act.

(2 Corinthians 5:9, 10) 9 So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

(Galatians 6:4, 5) . . .But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

But I also don't think that all we do is somehow negated by associating with others of like faith who are just as well meaning as we are, and who are also persons we can help strengthen and comfort and encourage, just as they can also do for us. Do you really think that even associating with fellow Witnesses is so bad that Jehovah cannot see our hearts, and find us in his "invisible" organization, too?

(Romans 11:2-6) . . .Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer through works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness.

 

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12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

See below - important scripture!

11 hours ago, Witness said:

How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world

We are reaching the point where human control over others will have no limit (as quoted scripture above indicates) and political and religion are close bedfellows - just like in Babylon when Nimrod merged false religion with hegemony.  They will dictate religion as part of state as they are  doing now in China.

Individuals buy property, get business licenses (just like our organization). This means they are IN the world and have to make a living with "unrighteous riches" .  BUT they are no part of the world.  I have not seen a witness run for office, lobby against LGBT or abortion (even though they do not condone it), participate in demonstrations or vote. 

We are without spot from the political system because we obey the laws as far as possible and do not oppose its mechanisms in activist way. We are also without spot in a moral way because we will NOT go to war or practice abortion or LGBT  - even if it has been legalized and legit in the world.

To tyranize against GB because they conduct business is not taking into account that Jesus said we can use "unrighteous riches" for him. God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

Remember the prophecy of the final situation where we will not be able to 'buy or sell' if we do not conform (morally- the good and bad values of jehovah) to this system and NOT give our worship/ moral obedience to the state. 

Our test will be great because you will become persona non grata when your digital bank account with all your money is locked because you accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus or do not practice LGBT.   I read of a trans that wanted to sleep with a married man and he called it a hate crime when declined....... this where the world us heading with a possibility of it becoming LGBTQP.  

Those who are without moral spot of this world/society (issue of good and bad and choosing Jehovahs sovreignty against directives of state and wicked society - as Adam chose) will be persecuted. 

 

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17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer.

I believe you hold the most optimistic broad view of the organization that you are able, in light of its tarnished image.  Your viewpoint deviates from the normal belief of a JW, and especially of its leadership. 

Yes, there is a basic initial attraction to the message, which doesn’t cause spiritual damage.  What does cause damage is what follows, when someone has been led to believe the organization is vital to serving God and Christ and that it always will serve up “truth”.   Vital, because these new ones come to understand from its leaders, that there is no other way that God approves. It causes damage to families by separating them when one rejects the organization as salvation – which is just what you said you don’t believe.  The ugliness cannot be erased away by a handful of teachings concerning war, hellfire, and the trinity.  It would be disingenuous to oneself to believe worship within the organization is good and acceptable to God, when the organization’s sins are laid bare; perhaps aided by the people who possibly received the initial attractive message.  You had made the comment earlier that you believed Christ transcends the organization.  You are not the typical JW, who believes Christ ONLY guides the WT.  This is an impressed teaching from the GB.  It will be reinforced, and the majority of JWs will hold it as truth, even if in your heart, you don’t believe it.  It is known as “God’s organization”, the whole package – sins and all. 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

  I agree, but WT's teachings discourage critical and independent thinking. 

This is what I know from Revelation.    In the last days, an organization develops that touts to be spirit-directed, overcomes the saints/anointed and threatens to spiritually “kill” anyone who refuses to give credence, respect and awe to its existence.  It is guided by a false prophet who appears to represent Christ.  This leadership has transgressed their covenant in Christ, which is obvious by their unscriptural demand that their anointed “brothers” are not to bond together. (You will read about this again in the Jan, 2020 study magazine)  It “tramples” down the priesthood of God using soften slander against them, expecting this priesthood to obey the men who not only represent them, but have charge over them. (Rev chapter 13)  I know from scripture that this breaks God’s decrees. And, I am aware that this is how Satan attempt to destroy the the remaining ones of the “woman’s seed”.  I am thoroughly convinced that the organization is a counterfeit. How can any type of preaching be acceptable to God when His special possession/dwelling/Temple/”organization” has been replaced by an earthly organization? This is what I wish JWs could perceive; God’s “invisible” organization are those priests who are presently trampled. Revelation and Daniel’s prophesy concerning the remnant is in full swing, and not having its fulfillment in the world. 

When reading Rev 18:4-8, God’s people are to “come out” of the “Harlot’s” grip.  His “people” are His “special possession” already gathered in the WT, where they are held fast by captive philosophy,  knowing that they may lose family for speaking against the tarnished image that claims to be the path to salvation.  You may not believe this, but it is how an individual can earn the title, “apostate” -  an individual who may have been delighted to learn about those basic truths.  I wish so much you could see that Revelation concerns the deception that misleads God’s people.

A gathering of believers – a “congregation” -  is much different than an organization that must initiate guidelines set by men.  When this happens, unrighteous judgment and oppression are bound to occur, which I’m sure you know.  The operation of “organization” reflects all others in the world. Can one continue to believe they are no part of the world, while submitting to the traditional worldly procedures of “organization”?

 Think about it, in the organization, anointed are told they cannot gather together, by the men who represent them, since it would destroy the unity of "organization".  Since being out of the WT, I can gather with whomever I choose, and study the Bible in depth, with no one to judge me but Christ. Rom 14:4  If God desires a good searching heart to know His Son and Truth, He will make sure it is accomplished…without the need of earthly organization.  

I have refrained from adding scriptures, since they are plentiful in all other comments and posts I have made. 

 

 

 

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:28 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

 

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

Yes. So that the worldwide rot that it has collectively produced does not manifest itself in the congregation.

I am even almost to the point of doubling down on that statement that reading the Awake is the equivalent of a 4 year college education. Every so often I still hear some old-timer repeating it—usually one with little secular education. it is a ridiculous statement on the surface and opponents have been beating us over the head with it from Day 1. If we dig a little, however, we see that it is not so ridiculous, and in some respects—the important ones—it is even spot on.

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know? Like @The Librarian (that old hen)?

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It should add up to something. But like juxtaposed waves, much of the product of higher education cancels itself out. It results in opposing philosophies and schools of thought that can barely coexist, that fails dismally those of the greater world caught in the crosshairs It is a building that someone lays down blocks by day and his adversary takes them apart at night, a field that someone sows fine seed by day and his enemy sabotages with weeds at night. What good is it? If you look at individual components, you are impressed. If you look at collective results, you are unimpressed—you may even be disgusted. 

In contrast, the Bible education Witnesses enjoy serves to unite them. The secular education of each individual might be less than the world average, but it is offset by being cumulative, cooperative, not competitive. Nor is it lacking in anything truly of practical use. Would anyone say that the JW organization is lacking in engineering skills? In digital skills? Environmental skills? Architectural skills? Managerial skills, and so forth?

Moreover, when one Witness knows something of practical use, he freely passes it along to others. This does not happen in the overall world where paywalls are the norm. Knowledge there is not given away—one must pay an enormous amount to be privy to it. College expenses (in the US) incurs debt that is not discharged for decades, and in some cases, never is.

A prime sticking point in US-China trade negotiations is the claim that the Chinese do not respect intellectual property—they rip off the technology of others. Can anyone imagine the American Bethel and an Asian Bethel getting into such a spat? It is inconceivable. If the US Witnesses know it, Asia gets it free. If the Asian Witnesses know it, the US gets it free.

Don’t go telling me about the excelling value of this world’s education. It rises to higher peaks—no question about it. But then it negates the value of those peaks by failure to provide the moral underpinnings that each Witness gets for free in the Awake.

(Of course, Awake is not anything like it used to be. It has been scaled way back. But the point still stands. All you need to is broaden the subject from just a magazine to the entire resources of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization. Surely that is fair. After all, the education of the Awake was never compared to a single college—it was compared to the entire world’s educational system.)

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

God did not originally plan for man to have a financial system..... so it is unrighteous.

If i understand few first verses of Genesis in right way, God did not originally plan for man to have:

-patriarchal system

-slavery

-noble class

-warriors

-religious and secular leadership

....etc

But this and more was part of Israel nation for centuries. 

What is righteous, and what is unrighteous before God and before human, is deep water.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For education to be any good, you have to be able to do something with it. It

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

convinced

Actually, those who still tout worldly education are not up to date with what is going on at universities- especially the fields in humanities.

There are many 'generic' degrees that have no value except put the person in debt for life.  The new degrees in feminism, social studies etc. Is guaranteed to turn the student into a walking nutcase who believes that men can have periods and gender is not determined by x and y chromosomes. Touchy feely persons who are triggered by every politically incorrect utterance and bully others who do not think as they do. 

Even the sciences and judicial system are now effected by this nonsense. There is a gynecologist in the news who is having her son of 7 years go though a sex change and the court has gone against the rational father. 

An education is supposed to give one proper thinking skills...... to be objective and logic.  But throwing right and wrong away and replacing it with human philosophy is leading to disaster.

At least bible reading helps one see realities and gives a moral compass....... something which is missing in the current scenario at colleges and universities.

 

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Where did that statement first appear? It certainly was never an official statement of policy. I think it was someone’s personal observation and expression of appreciation for what is published. Maybe it was included in someone’s life experiences or in some short snippet piece like that old “Watching the World” series. Does anybody know?

It was probably a suggestion from the Service Department to all Circuit Overseers to have them make that point especially during the years leading up to 1975. I recall two or three circuit overseers during the period when I was considering quitting high school. Also, if you look at some of the "ads" for Rutherford's books, it's the kind of hype they were given, too, so I suspect that such an idea (in different words) might have been around well before that, perhaps originally a method of touting the "Golden Age." 

I don't think the idea ever made it to print, except maybe in a talk outline, where it would have been based on someone's personal experience or based on some anecdote.

The idea of keeping up with the Watchtower and Awake! lining up with 4 years of college did work its way into this article in 1983:

    Hello guest!

*** w83 6/15 p. 31 An Excellent Education ***
IT HAS been said that by reading the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, along with other publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a person will receive, over a period of years, a considerable and broad education. To illustrate, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses wrote the following letter:
“I quit school in the 9th grade about twenty-five years ago. I have had no secular schooling since then. I should have, by all rights, stagnated mentally. Due to economic circumstances—I had to go to work full time to support my family—I found it necessary to go back to school for a high school diploma. I began school two days ago and the teacher decided to give me a test like the one I will have to pass to get my diploma. The test covered such subjects as science, law, social studies and reading comprehension. I told the teacher I didn’t want to take it because I knew I wouldn’t do well. But she insisted.
“The result was that I scored one of the highest grades. The test grade needed to obtain the diploma is 35, which is the average score. I scored in the 55 range, or 4th year college level. Why am I telling this? Because the main source of my reading in the last eight years has been the publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am an avid reader of them and do quite a bit of research.
“In the test that I took, I recognized that many of the answers were found in recent issues of our publications. For example, on science there were questions about fluorocarbons, a subject that had been discussed in Awake! It was similar with questions regarding physics, law and other subjects, including recent news events. Such events had been covered in the ‘Watching the World’ section of Awake! Also, my reading comprehension was exceptionally good.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Arauna said:

To tyranize against GB because they conduct business is not taking into account that Jesus said we can use "unrighteous riches" for him.

Did Jesus say we could use our material riches for him?   This contradicts his words in Luke 18:22:

 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”  Matt 6:19-21   

There is no scripture that I know of, indicating where Jesus put any value on accumulating money or riches and providing these riches for him. Matt 21:12,13

Do you remember it was Satan who offered Jesus the kingdoms, their glory (and their riches) in the world?  Do you think he has, in the last days, made a pact with Satan, that he’ll now take riches from JWs for himself to build his own kingdoms in the world?

 “Unrighteous riches” convey a different, spiritual meaning:

 

 “When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.” Acts 8:18-21

No one, can buy the gift of life with money or material riches, as the WT is telling you. 

17 hours ago, Arauna said:

Remember the prophecy of the final situation where we will not be able to 'buy or sell' if we do not conform (morally- the good and bad values of jehovah) to this system and NOT give our worship/ moral obedience to the state. 

Our test will be great because you will become persona non grata when your digital bank account with all your money is locked because you accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus or do not practice LGBT. 

Undoubtedly, the world will suffer in extraordinary ways that we haven’t experienced before.  But, you are reading into a symbolic book, Revelation, an incorrect view the meaning of “buy and sell”.  In three instances, the book uses the word “buy”. 

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.”  Rev 3:18,19

I know you don’t think Christ is offering us literal gold, and we do not buy this gold with literal money.  This ‘treasure’ in gold refers to eternal life gained from the outpouring of his blood.  We “buy” this, not with literal riches in the world (that Wt teaches as “unrighteous riches”) but through repentance, obedience, and faith in his sacrifice.  We pay for it with our pure, clean, refined devotion to God. Mal 3:2-4; 1 Cor 3:13,14; John 17:17 We pay back Jesus by offering ourselves as obedient servants to his commands.  John 15:10; 2 Cor 5:15

 The symbolism of “buying” continues in Rev 13:17, where the “Beast”/false prophet of Rev 13:11,12 admonishes one to “buy” ITS spiritual “riches” produced by the organization that it directs.  (The WT also refers to the Wild Beast of Rev 13:1 as an "organization")  If one decided to reject this spiritual commodity, they are spiritually, symbolically “killed”. Rev 13:15  Now, isn’t this what the GB expects of all JWs, to “buy” whatever “food” comes from the “faithful and discreet slave” who “sell” it under the stipulation that no other spiritual commodities are acceptable?  How does a JW pay for it? With their devotion, servitude and respect for the organization and its leaders.  One must bear the “mark of the beast/organization” to take part in this spiritual transaction.  There’s a lot of controlled buying and selling by all parties, in the org.  2 Cor 11:2-4

 

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The idea of keeping up with the Watchtower and Awake! lining up with 4 years of college did work its way into this article in 1983:

I am reminded of LeRoy Green—he would have said something like this. Leroy Green, who in the mixed congregation would drawl on without the slightest self-consciousness about “working for the white man” down in Mississippi. LeRoy Green, who retired from the railroads after 30 years with an intact pension. LeRoy Green, who in his 80s, was sought after by the younger brothers so they could jam with him. LeRoy Green, who, as I learned from relatives at his funeral, turned down an offer to tour with B.B.King, out of concern for his family and spirituality. LeRoy Green, with the most deep and infectious “hee-hee-hee” laugh you have ever heard, who I tried to line up to one day give my own funeral talk. It would have been one not to miss. I would have raised myself up from the dead to hear it: “Hee hee hee. Yeesss, that Tom Harley, he was a good ol boy. But he’s deeead now—D-E-A-D!”

Unfortunately, LeRoy Green died first. He would have been one to say—I think I do recall him saying it—that keeping up with theocratic publications was the equivalent of a 4-year college education.

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8 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

dropouts who just read a lot of awake magazines?

Definitely not dropouts...... one can keep learning without going to university.  One can get very talented people who have NO degree.......in science or art but still attain an extremely high level of competency.  

We have many engineers who are in the truth and they DO read a lot of Awake magazines ...and also magazines pertaining to their secular jobs to remain up  to date.

 

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the equivalent of a 4-year college education.

Any subject that one has studied for 12 years is equal to a college education. The first two years of college education teaches one the basic terminology and mechanisms. The third and fourth year are more advanced. It is only at master and doctorate level  one can say one us a master at one facet of a subject. 

Most witnesses know the basics of the bible in first year and after that start to build their knowledge. Bring me a doctor of theology that understands that Jesus is not God, that the soul of jesus died at his death, that keeping parts of the law such as sabbath and tithes are incorrect....... and I can go on and on........

It depends on the individual JW to maintain the first two year skills given to them and improve on it by self-study  and preparing well for the meetings. 

 

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Witness,  if you have the idea that God did plan for a financial system in this wicked world to exist and we should see  "unrighteous riches" as symbolic...... then go ahead and believe what you want.

I believe that God allowed a financial system to exist after Adam and Eve sinned and it therefore is unrighteous. What we earn from it is also "unrighteous."  BUT we can serve God by means of our unrighteous riches by paying for things (petrol, our time we can use to gain unrighteous riches) etc.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Bring me a doctor of theology that understands that Jesus is not God, that the soul of jesus died at his death, that keeping parts of the law such as sabbath and tithes are incorrect....... and I can go on and on........

Yes, but this what you are talking about, going to theology, philosophy, interpretations ..... and not to science in strict way of what science is. Something that scientist can prove with scientific methods.  

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