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Jack Ryan

JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

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Here is the quote from Jehovah's Witnesses calling former members "mentally diseased"

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    Hello guest!

 

Where in the scripture does it say that apostates are mentally diseased? I guess that's just their translation.

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Oh my.... didn't i just make a post about how we should ALL avoid labels? 

"Label and Kill" seems to be how uncivilized masses foment wars and unrest.

Please advise whoever is writing this stuff to avoid labels. 

This is why I pushed your group into it's own club since people get SO dogmatic rather than just weigh evidence according to science and fact.

ugh..... religion is really getting bothersome.

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But if someone has a mental disease aren't you supposed to forgive and help?

It would seem logical that if a fellow Jehovah's Witness were to be afflicted with a mental disease, we would feel inclined to tolerate their indiscretions, and to offer them support. However, the Bible has provided us with a mere principal, that the holy spirit has evidently directed us to understand as meaning that we should distance ourselves, and even act as if the mentally ill person does not exist. You are surprised you say! Well, let's see what God's word says about how God treated those that were far less perfect than just the regular imperfect ones of us.

In Leviticus 21:17-24, we read the following:

“Tell Aaron, ‘No man of your offspring throughout their generations who has a defect may approach to present the bread of his God. 18 If there is any man who has a defect, he may not approach: a man who is blind or lame or has a disfigured face or one limb too long, 19 a man with a fractured foot or a fractured hand, 20 a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man with an eye defect or eczema or ringworm or damaged testicles. t 21 No man of the offspring of Aaron the priest who has a defect may approach to present Jehovah’s offerings made by fire. Because he has a defect, he may not approach to present the bread of his God. 22 He may eat the bread of his God from the most holy things u and from the holy things.v 23 However, he may not come near the curtain, w and he may not approach the altar, x because there is a defect in him; and he should not profane my sanctuary, y for I am Jehovah, who is sanctifying them.’”z

Clearly, the same can be said for those who have mental defects. Just as they should not come near the curtain, or approach the altar of the lord, they should not come near us or approach us.

- oveja negra

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We probably should not have used such a hard term or "label" for these former JW's.

I would recommend going forward that we just don't respond to them if they appear belligerent or if we are just not inclined to refute them.

It doesn't look good for us to publicly denounce them since we are not in a position in society granted to label others.

and YES>...... I am trying to comply with what @admin is wanting ....

So I say..... let's tone it down as a group to comply?

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@Jack Ryan Well if someone says God has given them the power to go and commit injury to, I don't know, Muslims, they are mentally broken in some form. It isn't different from what Muslims call Trinitarians are Evil ridden, God hating Christians, or broken minded - granted they do not like people saying that God is somehow Triune.

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According to Strongs Concordance:

G3552

νοσέω
noseō
nos-eh'-o
From G3554; to be sick, that is, (by implication of a diseased appetite) to hanker after (figuratively to harp upon): - dote.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

G3554

νόσος
nosos
nos'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a malady (rarely figurative of moral disability): - disease, infirmity, sickness.
Total KJV occurrences: 12
 

Basically, referring to them as diseased is allowable: at least according to Strong's Concordance. 

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Satan is mentally diseased by hate. He is totally twisted in his reasoning. ....... God is the final judge..... but when a person shows the same destructive and hateful behaviour over and over again, then one should call a duck, a duck.  

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck over and over again - it's a duck.  When Jesus exposed the pharisees and called them graves...... he was speaking about their hate for truth and their unclean condition. Unfortunately, there are people like that everywhere.

While it is true that some repent after a debauched life and come back into the fold......like the prodigal son, there are those one can identify as being unrepentantly hateful and destructive. 

They all usually display the same frame of mind over and over again ...asif they are in a mental prison that cannot let them out.

 

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I am proud to be labeled as an apostate to the jw religion. But an apostate to God never will I be. Jw's have their own dictionary, so their definition of mentally diseased is different from societies.

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On 10/7/2018 at 12:07 AM, Jack Ryan said:

someone has a mental disease aren't you supposed to forgive and help?

There are some mental virusses that are incurable such as a penchant for gross  immorality and being a spokesperson for it. Once one has this self-appointed view of promoting and protecting amorality - there is no cure where there is no remorse. 

 

 

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I think someone missed what was said in 1 Timothy 6.

3 If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion,  4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions,  5 constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain.

 

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On 10/14/2019 at 8:33 PM, Arauna said:

There are some mental virusses that are incurable such as a penchant for gross  immorality and being a spokesperson for it. Once one has this self-appointed view of promoting and protecting amorality - there is no cure where there is no remorse. 

 

 

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governing body claims, it's a mental illness of idolatry.

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7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governing body claims, it's a mental illness of idolatry.

I don't recall the governing body claiming to be God or any of us made that claim, so the idolatry bit is a bit off handed.

Mentally Diseased (or Depraved) is in a sense of what is read in 1 Timothy 6 and several references like 2Co 11:3; 2Ti 3:8; Jude 10.

 

Lol but seriously, us claiming to be "God"? NANI!? 😬 Bro no one is equal to or greater than Jehovah God. You must be confusing us with FM or that one group in China who teaches that Jesus is a woman. Waaaaay off the rocking chair. 

 

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17 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governin

That is only your personal opinion not reality.  I have not read anywhere that they have said this. They claim to be the true servants of jehovah....... just like Jesus claimed to be the SON of jehovah.......... and they accused him too!

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1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

They have said if you leave them, you are leaving Jehovah. Its pretty straightforward that they are at least putting themselves on equal par with Jehovah.

Buddy, you have to understand what an Apostate, and you also have to understand why and how they other term is used because you literally just ignore the passage in Timothy.

It isn't straightforward, amigo, you took a bite out of an oreo and put it back in the package on this one when people noticed on this one. You are only ADDING that they are on par with Jehovah because what you said before doesn't add up. I even told you where you saw them verbally say that, but nothing...

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5 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Buddy, you have to understand what an Apostate, and you also have to understand why and how they other term is used because you literally just ignore the passage in Timothy.

You are saying he has to understand the meaning of an apostate according to the Watchtower “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses"   Par 16, chapter 5 of Shepherd the Flock of God.

This is where “doctrine” needs defining in 1 Tim 6:3-5

“ If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the [

    Hello guest!
] (“teachings”)doctrine which accords with godlinesshe is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, [
    Hello guest!
] (“constant friction”)
useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and *destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.”

Have the GB spread wrong teachings about Bible truth?  Well, yes. 

    Hello guest!

Those are just what they have deemed necessary to change.  There are still outstanding doctrines that they won’t let go of. (1914, for one)

*destitute – to defraud, rob, despoil

Every wrong teaching by the GB over each year the organization has been in existence, has robbed its members of truth.  Those who withdraw themselves from such spiritual corruption are called “apostates” based on doctrine as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses.  If they seek authentic truth from Christ, they are not the apostates.  Rather, those who have held back “wholesome (‘sound, free from any mixture of error’) words” from their hearers, are men of corrupt minds, believing they can feign godliness for their own gain.  And, men of corrupt minds, "know nothing".  If they knew truth from Christ, would there be a need for the list in the link above?  John 16:24

The GB has been successful at feigning godliness, while using a pointer to explain the new meaning of “this generation”.

“Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles contrary to the teaching that you learned. Avoid them.”

“…who create divisions and obstacles” – The obstacle is the false teaching, the division occurs when one rejects it and is labeled,“apostate”.  Rom 16:17

 

"Who are the Mentally Diseased?" - Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Witness Lol, you do realize I said "other term" and mentioned "1 Timothy". Yes he would need to understand what an Apostate is, and he has to also understand the other term that in discussion, mentally diseased or as 1 Timothy puts it, in context, mentally depraved.

Right now, you are adding on something vastly different, amigo. 

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2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness Lol, you do realize I said "other term" and mentioned "1 Timothy". Yes he would need to understand what an Apostate is, and he has to also understand the other term that in discussion, mentally diseased or as 1 Timothy puts it, in context, mentally depraved.

Right now, you are adding on something vastly different, amigo. 

I'll try to be more connective.  

Matthew9969  is stating that the GB is mentally diseased.  I agree, and gave reason for it.  His reason is because he feels they believe they are God.  I believe their “god” is the organization, while calling on God at the same time.  Matthew mentioned idolatry; and yes, they are idolaters.  It is preached that the organization is necessary to bring one salvation.  If you personally,  truly believe no one is equal to or greater than God, than you would truly believe the organization is not a fundamental necessity to worship Him.  Is the organization your refuge, or is God your refuge? 

“Still, as a people, “the chosen ones” and their loyal companions will physically survive the end of apostate Christendom by taking refuge in Jehovah and his mountainlike organization.”  WT 11/1/15 p. 4,5; par 8

“To whom will you compare Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One.  Isa 40:25

These men - the GB -  have the ability to twist their words over a given time, which is a sign of mental and spiritual corruption.  They speak of God, but in their right hand they hold a lie. 

He feeds on ashes.
His deceived mind has led him astray,
and he cannot rescue himself,
or say, “Isn’t there a lie in my right hand?”  Isa 44:20

 

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities

"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." 

COMPARE TO THIS QUOTE:

Kingdom Ministry 11/1990 p. 1  Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at 

    Hello guest!
. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established."
  

BOTH MADE IN THE SAME MONTH OF THE SAME YEAR

 

 

 

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On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, Equivocation said:

Lol but seriously, us claiming to be "God"?

The GB may not claim to be “God”, but by the doctrine they have developed, they have bestowed on themselves and the elders, the power to act as God and Christ, by disfellowshipping any who reject their unsound doctrine which has little or no scriptural basis.  The Bible definition of an apostate is not the one who rejects made up stories by men; but is the one who creates them, and expects other to follow without question. 

“For the time will come when people (JWs) will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear.”  1 Tim 4:3

 If you want to hear that 

1.  an organization is your salvation  Acts 4:11,12

2.  that men who have failed in Bible predictions and doctrine from day one, are appointed by God.  Deut 18:20-22

3.  that Zion/Temple of God is the organization and not the Temple priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10) 

and so forth...

then, who is the spiritually and mentally, unstable apostate according to scripture?  2 Pet 2:1-3

 

 

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The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Apart from what has already been quoted, Peter makes reference to that early apostate Balaam who sought to attack God's people. He says that when Balaam was hindered in his attempt to stumble worshippers of Jehovah by a "voiceless beast of burden", the effect was to hinder "the prophet's mad course" 2Pet.2:16. In using the Greek word "paraphronia" Peter indicates that Balaam was engaged in an act of madness or insanity and manifesting a symptom of mental disorder. A related word, "anoia" is used to describe the "sensless rage" of the Pharisees at Jesus' supposed violation of their Sabbath Laws (Luke 16:11), and also by Paul when actually describing the activity of those other ancient opposers of Jehovah's people, Jannes and Jambres. He spoke of them being completely "corrupted in mind" and that this corruption was plainly evident in the "folly" (anoia) of their action against Moses. (2Tim.3:9).

By the same token, modern day apostates exhibit they are "corrupted in mind", clearly exhibiting "folly" along with "senseless rage" and manifestly engaged in a "mad course". 

There is a PC language argument these days for avoiding the use of the word "disease" in connection with mental disorder, even the term "mental illness" is being questioned. This is due to the innapropriate reactions of  people to such terms. Over time, terms may gather an emotive potential which may provoke an inappropriate response in many. This reactive tendency is exploited by propagandists of which Christian apostates are a sub-division.   

However, no amount of feel-good euphemism can disguise the fact that Christian apostasy is abhorrent, contagious, and death dealing, whatever metaphor is used to describe it. Given the facts, it is also a mainfestation of insanity or madness. Many translators seem to agree:

2Pet.2:16:
New International Version
But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--an animal without speech--who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

New Living Translation
But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

English Standard Version
but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Study Bible
But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Literal Bible
But he had reproof for his own transgression by a mute donkey; having spoken in a man's voice, it restrained the madness of the prophet.

New American Standard Bible
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

New King James Version
but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

King James Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

Contemporary English Version
But a donkey corrected him for this evil deed. It spoke to him with a human voice and made him stop his foolishness.

Good News Translation
and was rebuked for his sin. His donkey spoke with a human voice and stopped the prophet's insane action.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his transgression: A donkey that could not talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's irrationality.

International Standard Version
But he was rebuked for his offense. A donkey that normally cannot talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's insanity.

NET Bible
yet was rebuked for his own transgression (a dumb donkey, speaking with a human voice, restrained the prophet's madness).

New Heart English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the reproof of his violation was a dumb donkey which spoke with the voice of men, restraining the madness of the Prophet.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But he was convicted for his evil. A donkey, which normally can't talk, spoke with a human voice and wouldn't allow the prophet to continue his insanity.

New American Standard 1977
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb animal accustomed to a yoke (upon which he was seated), speaking with man's voice, hindered the madness of the prophet.

King James 2000 Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb donkey speaking with man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

American King James Version
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.

American Standard Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet.

Darby Bible Translation
but had reproof of his own wickedness -- [the] dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the folly of the prophet.

English Revised Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Webster's Bible Translation
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness of the prophet.

Weymouth New Testament
But he was rebuked for his transgression: a dumb ass spoke with a human voice and checked the madness of the Prophet.

World English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Young's Literal Translation
and had a rebuke of his own iniquity -- a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.

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6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Yes. I wrote up a post on this at the time and included how other translations handled the verse. An excerpt:   (from 

    Hello guest!
 )

“Moreover, “mentally diseased” was placed in quotation marks, indicating it was not meant as a medical diagnosis, but as an adjective to suggest a manner of thinking. Nor is the term anything original. It is merely a repeat of the Bible verse 1 Timothy 6:3-4....“If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.”

...Douay-Rheims says ‘sick about questions and strifes of words.’ In view of the context, what sort of ‘sickness’ do you think the translator had in mind? Tuberculosis, maybe? Or is it not a sickness of thinking, so that ‘mentally diseased’ is not such a bad rendering after all? NASB...offers ‘morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words.’ Does ‘morbid,’ when applied to thinking, suggest balance and soundness of mind? Or is ‘sickness,’ even ‘mentally diseased,’ more to the point?”

Here’s a few other translations:

‘diseased’ (Emphasized New Testament; Rotherham)

‘filled with a sickly appetite’ (Epistles of Paul, W.J.Conybeare)

‘morbid appetite’ (A New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People; Charles Williams)

‘morbid craving’ (An American Translation; Goodspeed)

‘unhealthy love of questionings’ (New Testament in Basic English)

‘morbidly keen’ (NEB)

‘unhealthy desire to argue’ (Good News Bible).

“Do any of these other versions suggest soundness of mind? So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering, even if more pointed than most. Plus, once again, the term is an adjective, as it is in all other translations, not a medical diagnosis. Context (in that Watchtower article) made this application abundantly clear.”

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering

I like the description at 2Tim.2:17: "their word will spread like gangrene" (Gk γάγγραινα: gangraina). Doesn't seem to present any translation difficulty?

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@Witness That's a very weak response. That also throws into question Discples and Apostles who took the lead in the early congregation, i.e. some in Christendom equating Paul, Peter, and several others who were taking the lead, even some brothers who had some kind of authority, equating to God and Christ. So technically, you just jumbled together your own conclusion.

And..... You're not too hot on what was said in the letter to Timothy, or what Outta Here has mentioned. 

On the other hand, Matt was throwing out a claim that the governing body actually said this.

But let's be real here, as in, as real as a box of legos here, no one is claiming to be or being equal to God, not even an imperfect man or the governing body. You're just fitting the bill with the Scriptures talking about.

@Outta Here Pretty much if you point this out people will ignore it and won't believe it.

They'll have that "I can't believe it's not butter" reaction 🤣

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Yes, let every person in the organization come with their own theories of how a scripture should be interpreted. Let any person say they are anointed and then take disciples for themselves and preach their own interpretations. Yes let each one become their own God. 

This is a truly a united way of thinking - it will be similar to the world which is now so irreconcilably "united".

I just love the way these so-called bible experts think - so illogical and impractical...... quick to accuse others of being "gods" but wanting to replace those gods with their own ludicrous ideas. And quite ready to replace those gods with their own godlike opinions and authority.

 

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On 10/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, Equivocation said:

That's a very weak response. That also throws into question Discples and Apostles who took the lead in the early congregation, i.e. some in Christendom equating Paul, Peter, and several others who were taking the lead, even some brothers who had some kind of authority, equating to God and Christ. So technically, you just jumbled together your own conclusion.

Which response?  I gave more than one.  There goes another JW, comparing the GB to the apostles.  They were inspired, the GB is not.  The elders, except for a minuscule number, are not even anointed.  

It was Peter and the apostles who said, "We must obey God rather than men!"  Acts 5:29

Our obedience is to truth.  If an anointed leads in truth, then that one leads another to Christ.  Since the GB have flunked leading people in truth, then who should we obey?  We obey Christ's teachings.  That way, we won't be found a fool.  Matt 7:26

Outta Here did a fine job listing the variations of 2 Pet 2:16

"madness"

"irrationality"

"foolishness"

"insane"

As an example of madness, irrationality, and foolishness, please consider this:  your GB has targeted the "King of the North" as Russia.  This was in 2018.  This should mean to JWs that Armageddon is nigh. Today, the wonderful announcement has been made that a media center the size of Warwick will be finished in about 5 years.  On the cusp of a raging King of the North pouncing on JWs, business goes on as usual and the excitement is hardly containable.  

"We're ramping up production in response to heavy demand" of audio-visual offerings, Zick said. "People find these materials to be useful, so we're putting more resources behind them, and we're putting everything under one roof."  Newsweek Sat, Nov 02, 2019

Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” ’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

21 “So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”  Luke 12:16-21

 

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.  James 4:13-16

 

Do YOU believe that THEY believe Armageddon is nigh?

 

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8 hours ago, Witness said:

Which response?  I gave more than one.  There goes another JW, comparing the GB to the apostles.  They were inspired, the GB is not.  The elders, except for a minuscule number, are not even anointed.  

The comment in general and you kinda went off in a tangent. There goes another JW comparing? Lol, no amigo, estas siendo delirante ahora 😑. All that was said is what is read in the Scriptures is as what is said, therefore the term  "mentally diseased" concerning Apostates, especially the ones looking for some action, fits like a puzzle piece.

Ok and your point is? Not one from the Governing Body ever made a claim to be inspired at all. That was something brought up by people who assume with evidence to what was really said, in addition to that, I think some people here grilled you on this before.

Being anointed is like an invitation of God, so how are you so sure you are all knowing in this sense when you haven't even confronted or talked to them?

Plus you are going off into another subject, one, I believe another fella here who says he's anointed too, corrected you on a while back.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Do YOU believe that THEY believe Armageddon is nigh?

Yes. That is why we have to remain awake and keep on doing the work, fortifying our faith in the process. Because the day of Jehovah is like a thief in the night, unexpected and no one knows the day  not even the Angels, not even Jesus, etc. It is something like this that even drew a late intellectual mind into the Scriptures, and my professor loves talking about him.

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On 10/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, Equivocation said:

But let's be real here, as in, as real as a box of legos here, no one is claiming to be or being equal to God, not even an imperfect man or the governing body. You're just fitting the bill with the Scriptures talking about.

Yes, when the shoe fits.

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Being anointed is like an invitation of God, so how are you so sure you are all knowing in this sense when you haven't even confronted or talked to them?

Do you really believe the GB listen to the anointed found all across the world?  Do you really believe they read ANY letter from ANY of them?  Do you think they have an open door policy, allowing other anointed to voice their opinion by appointment at Warwick?  

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Ok and your point is? Not one from the Governing Body ever made a claim to be inspired at all.

 

Yet, their “taking the lead” is continually compared to the apostles and Moses.  They highlight both the apostles and Moses’ mistakes, to excuse their own mistakes.  

Of course, those taking the lead in the earthly part of God’s organization are not perfect—but neither was Moses. Even so, the pillar provided constant evidence of his divine appointment and of God’s approval. Note, too, that it was not for each Israelite to determine when to start moving. Instead, the people acted “at the order of Jehovah by means of Moses.” (

    Hello guest!
) Thus Moses, God’s channel of direction, likely gave the signal to move. Today, Jehovah’s steward class gives a clear signal whenever it is time to make a move. How does the steward do that? By means of articles in The Watchtower and Our Kingdom Ministry, new publications, and talks at assemblies and conventions. Instructions are also conveyed to the congregations through traveling overseers or through letters or training sessions attended by brothers having congregation responsibilities.  W 11/4/15 pg 4,5

…"neither was Moses”.  Uninspired men compare themselves to the prophet Moses, giving a “clear signal” when it is time to move, despite their mistakes, and comparing  this signal to the pillar of fire that God provided to lead Israel.  All of the sources of “instruction” mentioned, comes from their mouth, and not from God.  It can’t come from God, because they are not inspired as Moses was, or the apostles.  Is their signal given to all of you to “move”, really a clear one?  To believe this is madness and foolishness. Your history shows clear evidence it is not possible.  Your failed history shows how your leaders have strayed from truth.  Does a person with gangrene or a disease happily live with it, or do they make the effort to stop its progress, even cutting off the infected limb, or removing a diseased organ to save their life?  Apostates who are "mentally diseased" are numb to the effect the disease has on one's spiritual mind and body.  They allow themselves to continue to "feed" on proven madness.  To fight a spiritual disease that leads to death, a change of spiritual diet is vital.  Matt 7:15-20

16 But shun profane and idle babblings,("empty chatter") for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Tim 2:16-19

Many have departed from WT's "empty chatter", failed and changed doctrine, knowing to stay would bring their spiritual downfall.  They turn to Christ and yet your organization calls them, the "mentally diseased".  

 

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Plus you are going off into another subject, one, I believe another fella here who says he's anointed too, corrected you on a while back.

I don't know who "corrected" me in the past, or if that person was an anointed one.    But, the majority of JWs here, do make the effort to correct me on this forum.  

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

It is something like this that even drew a late intellectual mind into the Scriptures, and my professor loves talking about him.

Perhaps you are going off on a tangent.   But, it’s okay with me. 🙂 

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@Witness But you are just making assumptions, nothing more. 🤔

Also no, because the focus was on the term, Mentally Diseased, but we see that you're adding quite a bit.

Why not start another thread instead of adding on?

But the question still remains, if the term Mentally Diseased is in connection with what we see in Scripture correlating with this term, Mentally Depraved concerning specific individuals, why consider us in the wrong for pulling from the Scriptures itself?

In a simple term, do you agree with what is read in the letter to Timothy or not?

I like to add that this isn't anything new, others will simply term it as, Mentally Broken or Mentally Lost, Ill Minded, Diseased Mentality, and the list goes on. An odd one I heard that even alludes to the Scriptures is "A Broken Basket". This I only heard once lol, I dunno where the girl I met learned that from but when I talked to her, she only says this about people who is quick to start something without having all their facts in order, which is no different from an Apostate starting problems for Christians.

On 11/4/2019 at 2:23 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Didn't the watchtower say that some of the self appointed anointed may have mental illness?

Do you at least have a citation or a source? 🤔

I still couldn't find that "God" source of yours, so I am just going to check "False" on that multiple choice paper.

And again, you're quite on the passage mentioned earlier and what Outta Here mentioned.

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14 hours ago, Equivocation said:

But the question still remains, if the term Mentally Diseased is in connection with what we see in Scripture correlating with this term, Mentally Depraved concerning specific individuals, why consider us in the wrong for pulling from the Scriptures itself?

In a simple term, do you agree with what is read in the letter to Timothy or not?

Of course I do. I am sure my comments support the scripture.  If you’ll reflect on the title of this post, it gives hint that it is your leaders who utilize 1 Tim 6 to label those who question the organization’s teachings as “unruly men who cook up wicked reasonings, season their brew with poisonous lies that deceive minds”.  This quote comes from one of your conventions: 

 

 You have heard the saying, “when you point a finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you”.  Jesus said it like this:

“Hypocrite! First take the beam of wood out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.”  Matt 7:5

JWs easily forget the false doctrines that the organization is built on, and which will eventually bring it to the ground.  Matt 7:24-27    We have a choice today, one that involves our spiritual health.  It is our obligation to heed the words of Christ and the apostles.  If we notice any deviation from these teachings, the apostle Paul says:

“Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith.”  2 Cor 13:5

If a JW is taught, admonished, expected to adhere to a new teaching that must replace an old teaching because your leaders were WRONG to begin with, who is the mentally diseased one?  It is the one who expects you to follow their guidance even though they persist in wrong teachings.  Would you keep buying a product from a retailer that has a track record of producing bad products?  Of course not!  How much more should we test, and REJECT the teachings of those who have been consistently WRONG?  If you continue to spend your spiritual life in a haven of spent teachings scattered around you, what progress have you made toward developing genuine faith?  If you continue to eat “fruit”/teaching that is rotten, you also, become mentally diseased. Matt 7:15-20

 “If anyone teaches false doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing, but has an unhealthy interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions, and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain. From such people withdraw yourself.” 1 Tim 6:3-5

False doctrine is deprivation of truth. Truth in Christ imparts life. John 14:6  They cannot reside together.  2 Cor 6:14

Jesus was considered mentally diseased also, for speaking against the teachings of the Pharisees.  Mark 3:21; John 10:20; 8:48   Those of us who leave the organization to follow in Christ’s footsteps will find the same to be said about us.

“A disciple is not above his teacher, or a slave above his master.  It is enough for a disciple to become like his teacher and a slave like his master. If they called the head of the house ‘Beelzebul,’ how much more the members of his household!”  Matt 10:24,25

“ When we apostles told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, we didn’t base our message on clever myths that we made up. Rather, we witnessed his majesty with our own eyes. 17 For example, we were eyewitnesses when he received honor and glory from God the Father and when the voice of our majestic God spoke these words to him: “This is my Son, whom I love and in whom I delight.” 18 We heard that voice speak to him from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 So we regard the words of the prophets as confirmed beyond all doubt. You’re doing well by paying attention to their words. Continue to pay attention as you would to a light that shines in a dark place as you wait for day to come and the morning star to rise in your hearts. 20 First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation21 No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God’s direction.”  2 Pet 1:16-21

Now, consider your long list of changed teachings, of failed Armageddon dates…”Beliefs Clarified”.  Whose teachings do you really follow?  Those sourced in the Spirit of God, or in human interpretation – clever, ungodly myths that have captivated and corroded any true faith one may have in God and Jesus Christ?  Col 2:8  They are "clever" because JWs stay captivated to what will be produced as "new light" to come. They are "ungodly", because a lie is always, a lie.  

2 Thess 2:9-12:  "The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies. 10 He will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. 11 That’s why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. 12 Then everyone who did not believe the truth, but was delighted with what God disapproves of, will be condemned."

I know I have said similar things in previous posts on this thread, with the hope something said will "click" in the mind of some JW.

 

 

 

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Mentally diseased (mental illness) 

Why would one religious magazine (with non medical educated authors of article) using Medical Terminology for dealing/clash with dissenters, opponents, members who are in "awakening mode"?

What sort of "credentials" this people have (authors of article) who making medical expertise and conclusions about other people mental health? How they making "spiritual " observations for purpose of bringing "medical" diagnose? Or "medical" observation for "spiritual" diagnose"?  

@Outta Here speaking about, JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.... and made pictures with madness of prophets. What ex JW or apostates or mentally ill JW/ex JW talking about self as "prophet"?? WT Society is known as exactly showing such idea about self as "prophet for JHVH".

  This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).

Well please, what reason we have to believe in such Organization  who think about self to be individual - group prophet/s and in same time giving label to other people around them that they are mentally ill? In what ever context you want to put it, Literal or Spiritual.

 

Definition of mental illness

: any of a broad range of medical conditions (such as major depression, schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder, or panic disorder) that are marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, or emotions to impair normal psychological functioning and cause marked distress or disability and that are typically associated with a disruption in normal thinking, feeling, mood, behavior, interpersonal interactions, or daily functioning
    Hello guest!

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25 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well please, what reason we have to believe in such Organization  who think about self to be individual - group prophet/s and in same time giving label to other people around them that they are mentally ill? In what ever context you want to put it, Literal or Spiritual.

Especially since their "record" shows them to be "false prophets". 

26 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

since their "record" shows them to be "false prophets". 

We happen to disagree on that. What record I have seen from those who claim to be individual "teachers" of god's word is merely an emission of hate-filled rhetoric against JWs and no true positive teaching methods or message.  

Most do not give any prophecy because they only criticize.  "Prophecy' about future also totally lacking because they spend time only criticizing JW timeline but their own timelines happen to prove that jehovah is NOT the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. ....

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most do not give any prophecy because they only criticize.

Dear Arauna, 

I don't know how other people feels, but will say for my self. I can't give to you and to other here any  prophecy because of several reasons:

1) i am not true prophet

2) i am not false prophet

3) i am not inspired

4) i am not mentally ill

:))))))

... well yes you are right, i can only comment or criticize or give critical thinking on WT Society interpretations of prophesies and their attempt to explain when and how particular prophesy taking fulfillment....in other words WT "prophecy". 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most do not give any prophecy because they only criticize.  "Prophecy' about future also totally lacking because they spend time only criticizing JW timeline but their own timelines happen to prove that jehovah is NOT the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. ....

... criticizing JW timeline ...... jehovah is (NOT) the perfect timekeeper we expect him to be. ....

I will describe how i explain this wording, you can correct me if you think otherwise.

We have Bible and some verses that we think is a prophecy.

We (in this case JW organization and WT Society) made, making and changing several versions of the explanation/interpretations as something that it is, must be, have to be, it can't be something else ...etc.

And as result of big trust to this (human) interpretations, as they are been "empowered" by God, members thinking about JHVH as "perfect timekeeper" of His prophecy, but in fact of this "WT prophecy".

And at the end, as normal expectation is this: JW's living in delusion of hope aka expectation how it is normal to have particular expectation from JHVH to be One who will fulfill human expectations as His own goal. 

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A brother in charge of the PR department at Bethel for a while told me that probably 90 percent of those who drift away because they no longer believe what they once believed are never heard from again. The 10 percent who make noise probably make noise mostly because they are angry that they have been cut off from the love of their family. They can no longer see their grandchildren, their children, parents, or grandparents, or cousins, aunts and uncles. To him the apostate problem was the loud voices, the negative interviews they gave, and the protests at assemblies and headquarters. He thought we could resolve almost all of the apostate problems if we merely changed the one rule about cutting of the natural affection of the family. There was some vacillation on this point for a while.

In those days, he said that the only two serious negative issues to deal with for a PR department were "blood and blood." (Meaning blood transfusions and blood relatives.)

  1. His worst nightmare was when a baby died, or a child died, when all evidence showed that it was because the parents refused a blood transfusion. Pregnant mothers died from lack of a transfusion, too, after a delivery, and this was almost as bad. Custody issues also tended to focus on the way one parent, the Witness, would handle a blood related emergency.
  2. The other topic, stated above, was about cutting off family members who were disfellowshipped. 

Today of course, there might be other issues people are speaking up about, such as CSA.

I tend to agree that it is mostly those who harbor some kind of anger who rant on about 1874, pyramids, the Millions/1925 campaign, Miracle Wheat, Salon Society, Beth Sarim, Blood, Transplants, etc. A tiny percentage had their own issues with blood, but the people who scream about blood policy the most are those hurt by being rejected from family ties, not because they had any experience with the blood issue. Today, I'm guessing that most of those who make noise about CSA have never had a personal negative experience with CSA.

Obviously there are exceptions, and who knows about the 90-percent/10-percent estimate anyway?

But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make. I've never seen a crowd of apostates bigger than 40 or so, and some of these same persons make plans to travel around the world to keep the numbers of protesters looking large. Compare that to the MILLIONS now living who no longer believe the JW doctrines.

I also get the feeling that many of the loudest voices don't really even believe that CORRECTING Witness doctrines is all that important. Perhaps "Witness" and "Pearl" are exceptions, but I think most of the loudest voices don't really think that correcting JW doctrines is any more important than correcting Catholic or Mormon doctrines, because they most likely have no specific Christian anchoring of any kind. But they focus on JWs because that's where their anger or even hatred is focused.

I read something from one of the loudest voices against CSA (whose last name is a type of tree). There is a real hatred for elders. It's obvious. At the assembly, we were told that it wasn't about those who had drifted, but those who "push" away and show prideful arrogance and bitterness. I think we've seen cases where prideful bitterness and arrogance and hatred have been nurtured to truly become a mental disease. Diagnosable and certifiable. I won't point to any specific names, but there's that guy who stuck his name on "silent lambs" for example, if the stories I've heard are true.

Still, we can't judge generally of the millions who have drifted away, and just don't want to revisit something that has become painful to them. Even among the brotherhood, there is more and more evidence of perhaps hundreds or even thousands of Witnesses who are PIMO (Physically in, mentally out). A few months ago, I had no idea that there was such an expression, but I just "reddit" and discovered that there are many who plan to leave quietly, without raising their voice, and not making a scene. Mostly it looks like they do this to keep the family bonds intact. Relative to "sickness" it reminds me of this verse:

(1 Corinthians 11:30) 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and quite a few are sleeping in death.

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On 11/7/2019 at 5:45 AM, Equivocation said:

Do you at least have a citation or a source? 🤔

Hate to say it, but @Witness is right on this. The Watchtower source is very recent, and I have previously quoted it on the forum. I assume "Witness" has quoted it here too.

On 11/7/2019 at 5:45 AM, Equivocation said:

I still couldn't find that "God" source of yours, so I am just going to check "False" on that multiple choice paper.

Unfortunately, you would be wrong on that question, too. "Witness" says he was referring to the more subtle meaning of setting oneself in a position of authority like God, which is not done with a direct claim. But there are quotations from quite a bit further back in the Watchtower which taught a direct equivalence between the words of the Governing Body, and the words of God. Prior to that, the Watchtower claimed that those of the higher calling, the Bride of Christ, could be spoken of as the "Mighty God" and the "Everlasting Father" and the "Prophet Greater than Moses."

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

read something from one of the loudest voices against CSA (whose last name is a type of tree). There is a real hatred for elders. It's obvious. At the assembly, we were told that it wasn't about those who had drifted, but those who "push" away and show prideful arrogance and bitterness. I think we've seen cases where prideful bitterness and arrogance and hatred have been nurtured to truly become a mental disease. Diagnosable and certifiable.

The thing about the man whose last name is a type of a tree, both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs.  And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation.  I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth.  Those who inflict abuse, are the mentally diseased ones.

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7 minutes ago, Witness said:

both he and his wife suffered abuse by parents who were JWs.  And he also knew of an incident of abuse in his congregation.  I think you must agree that he isn’t mentally diseased, but mentally and emotionally scarred...for the entire rest of his life he will lead on this earth.

If that's the case it's more understandable. Of course, many of these abused ones go on to inflict abuse themselves, which according to your own statements, would make them "mentally diseased" too. But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

When I said "certifiable" I was referring specifically to some very disturbing stories about the "leader" of silent-lambs. These are not stories coming from JWs, but from what I have read coming from exJWs, too.

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Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's. Not even sure he has a regular job because all his time is taken up by making videos, writing his blog and doing research.

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25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I was referring especially to the inordinate hatred of all elders that he shows, when no one can rightfully blame all elders.

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

It is as you said,

“But I think we should be careful about judging everyone who leaves by the noise that the noisiest apostates make”

Should any noise made by an exjw be judged as someone cooking up a brew of lies in "Satan's kitchen"?    

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's.

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Witness said:

Yet, it is no different that the GB calling ALL apostates, mentally diseased.  Which, to those on the outside is translated as hatred. 

True,up  to a point. I heard the same thing you posted from the convention and took it to mean that we no longer think of the millions of persons who have left because of no longer believing as apostates. The speaker said that we do not include those who "drift away" as apostates. Only those who deliberately push away with a bitter, haughty, defiant attitude. There are several of those persons, but at least it effectively cuts down on the number of exJW apostates by as many as, who knows, two million? It's a tautology, but it sounded like we should only consider the mentally diseased apostates as mentally diseased. Those we could safely judge as part of Satan's seed. Personally, I can't judge anyone I know that harshly, but I'm sure they exist. And I suspect a couple of people might be in that category. And not always because they are so obvious, but sometimes because of how crafty they are.

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Can an obsession be counted as mental disease?

According to the dictionary one of the synonyms of obsession is mania, and the dictionary defines mania as: mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity. Further, the synonyms for mania are: madness, dementia, insanity, lunacy, psychosis and mental illness, among a few.

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession, too. For example, pioneer service is proof how some JW member is zeal for JHVH. He/she spend 35, 50, 70 hours or much more hours. Other things in their life are putted down for spiritual reasons. And such person mostly thinking about one thing - preaching. Is he/she obsessed with this activity? Many wouldl show "signs" of that.

We can see how one Bible individual act in "obsessed"  way. 

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb........And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts......Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.....For John came neither eating nor drinking......Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea.....

From our today's perspective even JW members would say how such person (without knowing source of description)  is not in full mental health. 

 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To be zealous about something can be seen as obsession,

True. We do however have a positive and negative connotation. In the case of someone obsessed with criticizing an organization made up of mostly good people, doing good things, that is a negative connotation of the word obsession. On the other hand, being "obsessed" about doing JHVH's will would have a positive connotation. In general though obsession seems more negative that positive, therefor zeal in this case would be a better choice in my opinion. Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

7 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you remember what fell into his hands?  "Damning contents" of a box of "sins described in the letters ranged from the mundane—smoking pot, marital infidelity, drunkenness—to the horrifying"...and the "secret database of child abuse".

It explains his obsession.  

Yes, all people are sinners and can do horrible things. We all know that. His obsession is unreasonable because he isn't going to change people is he? Plus half the things he says are false, and badly argued. As an example, he puts down the Witnesses for not joining the rest of the world in support of LGBT groups, clearly something condemned by God. Then again he doesn't care what God thinks, as he is a self proclaimed atheist....

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15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course you can also be zealous for the wrong thing (apostle Paul when he was Saul).

And then there is the perfume 😀

I agree. And you even not need to be obsessed or zeal with/for something, but still doing wrong thing.

That is what i have in mind. But also is important where you are in that moment (spiritual and literal place). If such person is observed from/by people who not belong to same ideology it could be viewed as "fanatic" (zealous or obsessed, it would not be too much difference)  

Even inside own group, various levels of "spirituality" that individuals (and others around) have and shows, that individuals see as desirable and good, as the qualities that people around and god himself expecting of us to have them, can be in range from, what fellow brotherhood consider as, normal, role model zeal to something what can be very confusing and doubtful.    

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Guest Tom Henry

What I’d like to know, why are witnesses debating a 9-year-old apostate talking point? Why the rhetoric about mentally diseased is not clearly defined without suppositions entering into the mix. Apostates made it a talking point to mean them.

Mentally diseased means anything but what is scripturally stated in 1 Tim. 6:3, 4. FALSE TEACHERS. Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates. Atheist, and even present day witnesses can be included. Christians with a different interpretation of scripture can be included. Christians accepting the teachings of another and not the teachings of Christ and define their argument as though their teacher has more spiritual connection than the watchtower in order to deceive those viewing certain posts as a prophetic insight can be included.

People don’t need to judge, even though “everyone” does in our daily lives one way or another. We just need to apply Scripture.

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12 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates.

This is probably true (up to a point). I think of the anti-God books of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, although I have no idea if these persons were ever religious. They are "apostate" if they left a ideology of faith and have disowned that ideology. Although I haven't read the books, I understand they are based on very simplistic argumentation that doesn't even try to understand scripture before trying to make fun of it.

But if we take your definition too far we would have to include men like Brother(s) Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz, Ray Franz, and even David Splane, and many others. Every time there is an adjusted belief, it means that the previous belief is now considered to have been misleading. For proof of that, what would we think of someone who still tries to deliberately teach the previous teaching before it was adjusted? We would have to admit that the person was deliberately misleading away from the teaching of God and Christ.

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Guest Tom Henry
32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But if we take your definition too far we would have to include men like Brother(s) Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz, Ray Franz, and even David Splane, and many others. Every time there is an adjusted belief, it means that the previous belief is now considered to have been misleading.

I would have to disagree with this assessment. There is a difference when something gets revised for a better and simpler understanding. The founders of the Bible Students were in their infancy. Their works were newly found truth to a better bible understanding. Nothing misleading about that. I would agree, before the SBA, Christendom did have false teaching that are still taught today by accepting the early church fathers understanding of scripture.

David Splane doesn't cause anyone to view scripture differently other than how Jesus taught it. That is the point.

Do you believe, revision to be a bad thing? Why would anyone want to stay stale with their understanding

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2 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Do you believe, revision to be a bad thing? Why would anyone want to stay stale with their understanding

No Allen....I mean Tom. Revision is a good thing. The problem is when we state something as fact one year, and then change it the next. One thing is building on an idea, pretty much the way technology and the medical field develop, but another is completely changing ones mind. The equivalent is maybe what psychologists do, they seem to change their minds, one time they say it's better to let a child do what it wants, and then when negative results are reaped, they say it's better to discipline a child. A kind of trial and error approach. Similarly, when what JW's teach does not work out, then we try the next "theory". Think generation.

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2 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Do you believe, revision to be a bad thing? Why would anyone want to stay stale with their understanding

Revision is a great thing if we are revising something that was wrong before. Otherwise, there is nothing stale about the original most basic understanding of the Scriptures. Even the most basic message about how Christ Jesus fits into Jehovah's purpose is exciting, comforting, wonderful, and never needed anything to be added or removed from it.

(Revelation 22:18) . . .“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

(2 John 9) 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son.

(Philippians 4:9) 9 The things that you learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these, and the God of peace will be with you.

(Colossians 1:23) . . .not being shifted away from the hope of that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven. . . .

(1 Thessalonians 2:13) 13 Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers.

(2 Timothy 1:13, 14) 13 Keep holding to the standard of wholesome words that you heard from me with the faith and love that result from union with Christ Jesus. 14 Guard this fine trust by means of the holy spirit, which is dwelling in us.

(Hebrews 2:1) . . .That is why it is necessary for us to pay more than the usual attention to the things we have heard, so that we never drift away.

(1 John 2:24) 24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you.. . .

(2 John 6, 7) . . .This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should go on walking in it. 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, . . .

(Galatians 1:8) 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.

(2 Corinthians 11:4) . . .For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him.

(Hebrews 13:9) . . .Do not be led astray by various and strange teachings, for it is better for the heart to be strengthened by undeserved kindness than by foods, which do not benefit those occupied with them.

Sorry about all the scriptures. Feel free to just pick any one of them. 😊

Also, beyond the basic message about Christ, there are some very important teachings that needed revision, not because the original text of Scripture was ever wrong, but because so many religions had veered away from truth. (Think: Trinity, Hellfire, Halloween, Easter Bunny, eternal soul, all good people go to heaven, God is on our side when we go to war, etc.)

But if all of that had been perfectly noticed in 1919, for example, I don't think Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses before us would feel that things had gotten stale, and that we needed to go back and forth on some of these items. It would have been just fine, if all these things had been seen right away, with no need for revisions.

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Guest Tom Henry
32 minutes ago, Anna said:

he problem is when we state something as fact one year, and then change it the next. One thing is building on an idea, pretty much the way technology and the medical field develop, but another is completely changing ones mind.

I would have to disagree with that. If a better understanding is found let’s say with an uncommon word, then it would be vital to update something previously that can clarify something known that can be used as an unknown.

Koine Greek has a one letter differential with different outlooks in the English language. Then you have the never ending secular laws that get revised constantly. Modern society changes every minute.

What point would you consider that witnesses need to sit on their hands to satisfy the needs of a few?

29 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Revision is a great thing if we are revising something that was wrong before. Otherwise, there is nothing stale about the original most basic understanding of the Scriptures. Even the most basic message about how Christ Jesus fits into Jehovah's purpose is exciting, comforting, wonderful, and never needed anything to be added or removed from it.

In this sense. Nothing has changed with understanding but simplicity. I will agree, revision is not a bad thing.

30 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But if all of that had been perfectly noticed in 1919, for example, I don't think Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses before us would feel that things had gotten stale, and that we needed to go back and forth on some of these items. It would have been just fine, if all these things had been seen right away, with no need for revisions.

Then we agree, Jehovah's organization is not stale, and always moves forward toward a better understanding of scripture. Too bad, Jesus is not physically here to state, "get behind me Satan" when we as individuals stumble with our own thoughts.

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3 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

David Splane doesn't cause anyone to view scripture differently other than how Jesus taught it. That is the point.

If he's honest, he surely admits that he has caused people to view scripture differently than how Jesus taught it. Otherwise why would he give a talk in October 2014 where he said that a very well ingrained method of teaching the scriptures was about to change? And the basic reason for the change was because he said it didn't currently line up with the style that Jesus used when he taught. It was NOT the way of teaching that God approved.

Somewhere between 100 and 200 doctrines changed, based on that talk he gave in 2014. They were changing because, as his theme scripture stated, the Governing Body was to become more faithful and discreet and follow Luke 10:21 which was tied to "how Jesus taught" and which said: "Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved."

Now if he was changing 100 doctrines to become aligned with the teaching method Jehovah approved, then he must have believed that he was previously NOT following the teaching method that Jesus used: the method that Jehovah approved.

If you don't believe this, then you might as well say that the change was made just so that things wouldn't seem stale.

Of course, based on our history, it's always quite possible that some teachings have been currently been added which cause us to view scriptures differently from the way it was taught in Scripture itself. What caused us, for example, to decide that the "higher powers" or "superior authorities" were God and Christ when Russell and nearly a thousand years of Christian commentary had it right. Surely, you admit that the teaching in 1961 was wrong, and this is the reason it was changed in 1962.

Up until a few weeks ago, we taught that the "locusts" of Joel 2 referred to Jehovah's Witnesses, and just now Brother Splane ( 

    Hello guest!
) has stated that the locusts refer to God's enemies, just as nearly 100 percent of Christendom's commentaries have been saying for hundreds of years. This teaching was already "clarified" in 1961. ( 
    Hello guest!
and is still on the website as current in the "Revelation . . . Grand Climax" book. ( 
    Hello guest!
) Again, you might have guessed that Russell had already claimed that the locusts could not be God's people.
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!

So this is not really clarification at all. Russell teaches that the "superior authorities" are secular not God & Christ. Rutherford "clarifies" this (1929) to say they are God & Christ and not secular. Then in 1962, it is "clarified" again to say that it is secular and not God & Christ.

Same with the locusts. Russell teaches that they cannot be God's people. Then the Watchtower "clarifies" that these locusts are God's people. Then Brother Splane "clarifies" that these locusts are not God's people. So far, the website only says the following.

Brother David Splane clarified our understanding of the prophecy recorded in

    Hello guest!
describing a swarm of locusts. We look forward to studying this clarified understanding when it appears in The Watchtower.

I think it's easy to see that this will clarify that the teaching was wrong up until a few weeks ago. A wrong teaching is always misleading. But it does not necessarily follow that the person teaching it wrong is "mentally diseased" as you said would be true of any who taught something misleading.

4 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates.

Several would say that the overlapping generation teaching is wrong the way that Brother Splane explains it. You might say that anyone who teaches that this explanation is wrong is misleading by the teaching of Christ and God's words. But what if Brother Splane, next October, begins to agree that the way he explained it was wrong, and says that a new "clarified" teaching is now going to be taught? It seems like you would say that the persons who were right were misleading, and Brother Splane was not misleading when he was wrong.

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Guest Tom Henry
28 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, based on our history, it's always quite possible that some teachings have been currently been added which cause us to view scriptures differently from the way it was taught in Scripture itself. What caused us, for example, to decide that the "higher powers" or "superior authorities" were God and Christ when Russell and nearly a thousand years of Christian commentary had it right. Surely, you admit that the teaching in 1961 was wrong, and this is the reason it was changed in 1962.

I don’t deal in hypothetical. Anyone can write things to make it seem correct. The good thing, the GB continue to follow the pattern set forth by Christ.

This idea would have to be tested to see if it concurs to an individual’s action. We must not believe, we know better than the other. Bro Splane can explain something a 100 which ways from Sunday and the message still remains the same. Progressiveness is not a failure as indicated.

That’s what revisions are, and will continue to be. Are you aware, the writing department had a free hand back then? Why blame the GB? The GB uses consideration and prayer to see if the written works align with scripture. Can certain past understanding be revised, yes they can. Especially to accommodate what is happening in the world.

Further examination with respect to understanding, the separation of the sheep and goats when Armageddon occurs, if a different application can be ascertained without losing its meaning. Regardless, the good and bad will be separated by Christ and God. There is no value lost unless we start to think beyond scripture to make matters out of our own understanding.

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But if we take your definition too far we would have to include men like Brother(s) Russell, Rutherford, Fred Franz, Ray Franz, and even David Splane, and many others. Every time there is an adjusted belief, it means that the previous belief is now considered to have been misleading.

If we want to apply @Tom Henry  way of reasoning and logic, and not only in religious matters but in every human activity because life means all and not only religion, we all are lunatics and deeply mentally ill. (In very deep sincerity i would agree with that :))))

Perhaps i would understand Tom Henry if he want to use Bible report of  Eden excommunicate starting point. But that also would mean how religious legacy that WT Society and JW organization want to show how is based on every past "faithful witness for JHVH" individual or group is not possible to establish. Because, in very first moment when God aka Father had cute all spiritual (and literal) "family ties" with Adam and Eve and by that with their children, they been left in all sort of mental problems because their Father didn't want to "pick up telephone and answer on their call even to say Hello and to satisfied their emotional need to just hear His voice and be calmed by that".

You can imagine how such treatment of ignoring (shunning) can cause all sort of emotional difficulties in individual. Such constant stress lead to depression and mental problems. It would  not be surprise how some people ended in "mental house", in literal institution or home made nuthouse.

If it is true how humankind is separated from God because of Adam sin, than we all are crazy. 

WT Society generously contribute to general madness (of flock) because they shows continuity in changing doctrines that was previously been established on Bible, deep study and prayers of faithful men..... and after change was made, new doctrine is also established on same methods and have same name - "the truth". It is logical how inside mental state of suppressed thoughts and emotion about WT Society doctrines can make people to be "mentally ill".   

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They were changing because, as his theme scripture stated, the Governing Body was to become more faithful and discreet

 

7 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Anyone can write things to make it seem correct.

I would go back to fundamental reasons of that we talking about. No matter do we talking about revision, better understanding, new light, simplicity ......etc. point is this:

In what mental state has been all this individuals who made first, second, third, and so on with numbers, doctrine and then revision of that same doctrine?

Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. It seems how all authors and all who approved what was written in WT publications had mental issues and that is main reason for revision of doctrines. Just repeating Tom's idea with new wording :))) 

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21 hours ago, Anna said:

If we are going to use the man whose name is a type of tree as an example, then we can see he fits the bill quite well as he is completely obsessed, totally consumed with the JW's.

There are actually two men whose name is a type of tree. Both are pseudonyms, the specific trees are different, and one was chosen as a tribute for the other. I think the two have been confused with one another here.

Tree 1 has the hatred for the elders,  but not to my knowledge, any unpleasant family history. Tree 2, the one named in honor of Tree 1, is the one with the dysfunctional family history. I don’t quite remember the specifics, but I don’t think it was anything wildly shocking—perhaps an authoritarian father on his wife’s side, or step father—something like that.

Tree 1 is the one who banned me from his website. Never from Twitter, where I did answer him a few times, and he was without exception (once he discovered that his initial hope that I was about to jump ship was wrong) insulting, taunting, and ridiculing.

Tree 2 blocked me from the moment I first responded—not disrespectfully (though also not half-heartedly)—to his article that was published in a major magazine.

References to both are in “TrueTom vs the Apostates!”

Tree 1: 

    Hello guest!

Tree 2:  

    Hello guest!

I have a different type of a tree in my front yard—a ginkgo tree. It is one of the few (perhaps only) deciduous trees that come in male and female variety. The male tree is fine. The female stinks in the fall. 

“The sarcotesta [fallen ginko tree fruit] has a strong smell that most people find unpleasant.” - Wikipedia

We call ours a ****ball tree. People think that is crude, but then they stop by for a whiff and wonder what took us so long to name it.

Otherwise, it’s an outwardly beautiful tree.

Why it is MY tree and not one of THEIRS I’ll never know.

 

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There are actually two men whose name is a type of tree. Both are pseudonyms, the specific trees are different, and one was chosen as a tribute for the other. I think the two have been confused with one another here.

TTH:  "There are actually two men whose name is a type of tree.  Both are pseudonyms, the specific trees are different, and one was chosen as a tribute for the other.  I think the two have been confused with one another here."

I had in mind the Redwood tree, which is related to the Cedar, and both are in the family of the Bald Cypress.  But...why must we speak in code anyway?  

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

I had in mind the Redwood tree, which is related to the Cedar

I had in mind the Cedar, which I think is tree 1 @TrueTomHarley

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

.

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!

Which books is this from?

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

I had in mind the Cedar, which I think is tree 1

I think it wooden matter.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Which books is this from?

Several groups of  "Russellites" use a convention that you'll see in the HTDB (Harvest Truth DataBase) which can be found here: 

    Hello guest!

If a link starts with an A through F, then it refers to Russell's Studies in the Scriptures series. Therefore the D in D543 is the 4th volume ("The Battle of Armageddon") and the next numbers are the page number in the edition printed closest to 1916. R refers to the Zion's Watch Tower and the "Watch Tower" reprints, which were in several volumes, but the page numbering runs from 1879 to 1916. R362 is a very early one (June 1882) and R5527 is a very late one in Russell's career (Sept 1914). Q is the Question Book. (Actually it's a compilation called "What Pastor Russell Said.")

I just use the links the same way they are used on htdb.

 

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Guest Tom Henry
17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. It seems how all authors and all who approved what was written in WT publications had mental issues and that is main reason for revision of doctrines. Just repeating Tom's idea with new wording :))) 

I would disagree with your tactics in word usage. Even in Jesus time, someone could have thought Jesus to be insane for stating he was the "son of god" if not for the proof Jesus provided to assure everyone he was. Did that prevent the Jews from trying to stone him for blasphemy?

The same way there are witnesses that condemn the way the Watchtower is running. The point and balance is with sanity. Personal sanity. All other things don't matter. Words here don't matter. Peoples opinions don't matter. What does matter, would be how each of us worship God the same way Jesus taught it.

Changing Jesus context as it's done here is an endeavor to subvert the truth. So, no, I wouldn't include every JW but I would include the teaching of Jehovah's witnesses as the closest thing to the actual first century teaching of Christ.

56 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Several groups of  "Russellites" use a convention that you'll see in the HTDB (Harvest Truth DataBase) which can be found here

You must have missed there is a 7 and a 9. Seven was the first and 9 is the latest. Not all Bible Students share the same history as how the Bible Student movement started. Some SB's do consider their early advent works, when there was none with Russell.

A good reason not to elect Elders that persuade its members to mythical conclusions.

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Guest Tom Henry
53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

No, not at all.

Okay got it! Just letting the readers know there are differences in some areas with those databases.

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5 hours ago, Tom Henry said:
23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill. It seems how all authors and all who approved what was written in WT publications had mental issues and that is main reason for revision of doctrines. Just repeating Tom's idea with new wording :))) 

I would disagree with your tactics in word usage

If you don't mind, i put down copy paste, partially the text you made, what i understand and  see as your stand: 

Mentally diseased means anything but what is scripturally stated in 1 Tim. 6:3, 4. FALSE TEACHERS. Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates.

I was going again through our text and saw this detail:

Tom: Anyone that misleads by the teaching of Christ and God’s words is mentally diseased, not just apostates.

Srecko: Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill.

Yes, here we have some differences in wording and in marking what sort of people are "mentally ill".

You pointed on those group of people who "handle" with Jesus' words and misleading others while doing that. Who are those people? Nominal clergy class, elder class, GB? Or, and also members of church, congregation, who by repeating what they learned from their "teachers" also spreading false teachings?

Because all this sort of classes, i mentioned, participate in such activity, i would understand how all of them are "mentally ill", because of final outcome you pointed with: they misleads (other people) by the teaching of Jesus, that in fact is not His teaching.

In my resume on your comment, i said: ....  how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill.

I do not see any tactics in word usage from my part, because both class of people, those who misleads other and those who are mislead by other (by first class) are and come to be "mentally ill" because of bad spiritual food they have eaten and still eating.

I hope this will clarify our wording and understanding of what was said and thought with expressed words. :))

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On 11/8/2019 at 8:50 AM, JW Insider said:

True,up  to a point. I heard the same thing you posted from the convention and took it to mean that we no longer think of the millions of persons who have left because of no longer believing as apostates. The speaker said that we do not include those who "drift away" as apostates. Only those who deliberately push away with a bitter, haughty, defiant attitude.

I felt I needed to catch the speaker's words; they were, “apostates do not drift away from the truth”.  In my household, there are four individuals who use to live the life of a JW; me, a widely known disfellowshipped “apostate”, my husband who is not disfellowshipped but never hesitated to reveal the organization’s hypocrisy to the elders while still “in”, my son and daughter-in-law who eventually quit going to the meetings, and are not disfellowshipped but shunned by all JWs they may happen to see.  My daughter-in-law’s parents refuse to visit their daughter and grandchildren.  Out of the four of us, I am the only disfellowshipped vocal one, the other three just walked away, yet all of us are treated the same. 

Because of the act of shunning, wouldn’t you say that all four in our house are considered, “apostates”?

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On 11/7/2019 at 3:45 AM, Equivocation said:

@Witness But you are just making assumptions, nothing more. 🤔

Also no, because the focus was on the term, Mentally Diseased, but we see that you're adding quite a bit.

Why not start another thread instead of adding on?

But the question still remains, if the term Mentally Diseased is in connection with what we see in Scripture correlating with this term, Mentally Depraved concerning specific individuals, why consider us in the wrong for pulling from the Scriptures itself?

In a simple term, do you agree with what is read in the letter to Timothy or not?

I like to add that this isn't anything new, others will simply term it as, Mentally Broken or Mentally Lost, Ill Minded, Diseased Mentality, and the list goes on. An odd one I heard that even alludes to the Scriptures is "A Broken Basket". This I only heard once lol, I dunno where the girl I met learned that from but when I talked to her, she only says this about people who is quick to start something without having all their facts in order, which is no different from an Apostate starting problems for Christians.

Do you at least have a citation or a source? 🤔

I still couldn't find that "God" source of yours, so I am just going to check "False" on that multiple choice paper.

And again, you're quite on the passage mentioned earlier and what Outta Here mentioned.

"WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF THOSE PARTAKING AT THE MEMORIAL? In recent years, we have seen an increase in the number of those partaking at the Memorial of Christ’s death. That trend contrasts with the decrease in the number of partakers that we saw for many decades. Should this increase trouble us? No. Let us consider some key factors to keep in mind. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Tim. 2:19) Those taking the count at the Memorial cannot judge who truly have the heavenly hope. The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Therefore, the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth." Watchtower 2016 Jan study ed
    Hello guest!
&
    Hello guest!
"Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors — including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance — might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know." Watchtower 2011 Aug 15 p.22
"Over the years some, even ones newly baptized, have suddenly begun to partake. In a number of cases, after a while they acknowledged that this was an error. Some have recognized that they partook as an emotional response to perhaps physical or mental strain. But they came to see that they really were not called to heavenly life. There is every reason to believe that the number of anointed ones will continue to decline as advanced age and unforeseen occurrences end their earthly lives." Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p.31

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Should we be concerned that Brothers and Sisters increasing getting heavier and heavier every year is a lack of self control?

They may be depressed, have anxiety, or other emotional disturbances that may play a roll in their increasing obesity.

There is every reason to believe that it is spoons that make us fat..

 

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Thanks @Matthew9969 for using WT magazines. This articles shows how GB want to present us, how mental illness was not started with "apostates" in recent time.

Wording "mental illness" is connect with WT Society context about result, outcome that is seen in JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000 class. 

They numbered several reasons why some JW member thinks about self as King and Priest aka part of 144000. They say:

in 1996

-after a while they acknowledged that this was an error

-an emotional response

-perhaps physical or mental strain

in 2011

-past religious beliefs

-mental or emotional imbalance 

in 2016

-mistakenly think that they are anointed

-mental or emotional problems 

It is obvious how WT Society is organization who looks on one part of members as people who have not mental and emotional balance. Perhaps GB say so, because of Jesus words how he is send to ill, sick people, and that also including physical, mental and emotional defects.

But we see how GB put this explanation on exactly one specific class or group of individuals inside organization - "anointed". On all anointed individuals who are outside of GB... or Helpers. Well, here we see how few anointed  individuals who are in position to call themselves as FDS who sharing spiritual food, decided to sending message through publications how only them are mentallyphysically and emotionally in perfect health. All other are in question.  

Well, where insane people living? Inside or outside sanatorium?  

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks @Matthew9969 for using WT magazines. This articles shows how GB want to present us, how mental illness was not started with "apostates" in recent time.

Wording "mental illness" is connect with WT Society context about result, outcome that is seen in JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000 class. 

They numbered several reasons why some JW member thinks about self as King and Priest aka part of 144000. They say:

in 1996

-after a while they acknowledged that this was an error

-an emotional response

-perhaps physical or mental strain

in 2011

-past religious beliefs

-mental or emotional imbalance 

in 2016

-mistakenly think that they are anointed

-mental or emotional problems 

It is obvious how WT Society is organization who looks on one part of members as people who have not mental and emotional balance. Perhaps GB say so, because of Jesus words how he is send to ill, sick people, and that also including physical, mental and emotional defects.

But we see how GB put this explanation on exactly one specific class or group of individuals inside organization - "anointed". On all anointed individuals who are outside of GB... or Helpers. Well, here we see how few anointed  individuals who are in position to call themselves as FDS who sharing spiritual food, decided to sending message through publications how only them are mentallyphysically and emotionally in perfect health. All other are in question.  

Well, where insane people living? Inside or outside sanatorium?  

Does this way of thinking actually come from the 'world' ?  It seems to be a away of taking away the credibility of people.

I'm sure it's the type of thing you see in films, when someone wants to make another person feel insecure, or wants to make a person doubt themselves. 

If in fact the Governing Body are NOT inspired, then how would they actually know if someone else was ?  And i do think their attitude is passed down to the elders. 

A bit off topic but I had a funny thought.

Sometimes the Organisation is compared to Noah's Ark. However there were only EIGHT humans in that Ark and the rest were dumb animals that were controlled by those EIGHT humans.

Um how many members of the Governing Body are there ? Oh yes EIGHT.  And who in control of the Org ? Those EIGHT humans. Does make a person wonder exactly what the Governing Body thinks of all the rest in their Ark. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

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Guest Tom Henry
On 11/10/2019 at 2:36 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Srecko: Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill.

I continue to disagree with your word usage. I’m not referring to my comments but how you are handling your own.

The problem, you want to assess the GB are false teachers. That’s a matter of opinion. They conduct their teachings exactly as prescribed by scripture. Therefore, Jesus is the GB's teacher. I seriously doubt Jesus was a false teacher being a perfect man. I can see how some Jews thought he was, but that amounted to a historically bad opinion.

Another area is the phrase “mentally ill” versus “mentally diseased”. One projects and aligns with what scripture states as false teachers. Those of us that are, willing to subvert scripture by our own understanding, while the other phrase is indicating a state of mind. I believe that difference has already been answered by others.

The Watchtower is not suggesting people are crazy for being false teachers. If that is the impression you are getting, it is a false one.

Under the opinion given by you, there are 9.2 billion people on earth right now that can be considered, false teachers except you. I would dispute that.

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

there were only EIGHT humans in that Ark and the rest were dumb animals that were controlled by those EIGHT humans. Um how many members of the Governing Body are there ? Oh yes EIGHT.  And who in control of the Org ? Those EIGHT humans. 

You call yourself astute?

If you would use the head God gave you and focus, you would note that one GB member is eating a lot to be big as an elephant, one is stretching his neck like a giraffe, another growing stripes like a zebra, yet another shrieks like a macaw, and so forth. 

Look, everyone knows this. Why do you come to the table so ill-equipped in knowledge?

”My, what wolflike teeth you have, grandma”

”All the better to control you with, my dear.”

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On 11/10/2019 at 7:21 AM, Tom Henry said:

same way there are witnesses that condemn the way the Watchtower is running

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

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Guest Tom Henry
2 hours ago, Arauna said:

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It appears you have drawn your own conclusion with my comment. It appears everyone here is willing to set a dangerous precedence when they don’t get the full context of someone else comments. Be that as it may, you had plenty of bottled up emotion. It’s good to release it. How about doing that with everyone you think has an unsubstantiated grievance, and not limit it to just one or two.

The inference you promote is fundamental human rights. Do you believe, God’s word was written to expand on human rights?

What about the spiritual right that Jesus gave his life for? What about the right of our creator? I doubt God would condemn and punish the organization as he did with the Israelite's every time they criticized his messenger and had someone within act upon their own greed, yet the whole nation was punished for it, God wouldn't use the same criteria in modern times. Joshua 7:1-2, Ezekiel 35:5, Isaiah 24:1-2

I wouldn’t expect a witness to argue fundamental human rights, but the rights of our heavenly father. I will agree, no one should be silenced especially when someone criticizes a critic. That also sets a dangerous precedence when someone gives more power to those that oppose and reject an organization just for following in the footsteps of Christ and obeying God’s commands.

Too much emphasis is placed on 8 men rather than the worldwide brotherhood that is affected by such criticism in real time.

1 Peter 2:14-16

14or to governors as those sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Psalm 31:18

18May lying lips be silenced, which speak with arrogance against the righteous, full of pride and contempt.

This should give you pause to reflect and set aside what your conclusion was and give it a more realistic view, the comment was not intended or directed to you personally. Especially when it comes to how God communicates and how things are done. I don’t believe we have a full account on the daily lives of all the prophets, Jesus and the apostles. The accounts we do have, are of historical spiritual value. That means we don’t know everything that went on back then, and we are not deprived on anything now. Should people expect to know more just because it’s the Org by opposers?

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11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

Hi. No problems with numbers :))) 

When you mentioned numbers, some would say how 144000 can be a symbolic number too, not literal. Because Lamb is also symbolic expression, and not literal creature. :))

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom?

I am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

8 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

I continue to disagree with your word usage.

No problem Tom. That will not make me "mentally ill" :)).

8 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Another area is the phrase “mentally ill” versus “mentally diseased”.

Thesaurus. com

diseased

[ dih-zeezd ]
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ill

[ il ]
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  • off one's feet
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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.

Well, than it seems, how elders going above given power and position, because they, elders in congregations suppressing not only criticism but also critical thinking :)) 

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1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

I wouldn’t expect a witness to argue fundamental human rights, but the rights of our heavenly father.

Imagine yourself as Lawyer who defending innocent person. But what if you are so clumsy and unprepared and from time to time looking in a bottle. How this can help your client - God? 

I think how God can defend self much better than human will and would do it for Him. An at last, according to Bible that work (defending Fathers rights) Jesus already finished very successfully.

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On 11/10/2019 at 9:43 PM, Witness said:

“apostates do not drift away from the truth”

This is an important statement. In actuality many persons are on the "apostate spectrum." Some religions, just like gangs, or the mafia, don't allow one to just drift away. You have to be attacked and in effect, "neutralized."

With religion, it's usually fine to drift away if it highlights that the religion has moral standards that are hard to live up to. Then those who don't come back will sometimes even be seen as a kind of a badge of honor to the religion. (Not individuals, but in general.) But if there is any danger that the person will speak out against the teachings, practices or the basis of organization, then that person must be neutralized in some way so that few persons will listen to them.

Scientologists are famous for going after persons in a threatening way, or through legal means, to keep people from speaking out against their teachings or practices. In the same way, a whistleblower must be fired (by any means necessary) so that they suddenly become no more than a "disgruntled former employee." The Scientologists took over the entire C.A.N. (a huge online Cult Awareness Network forum) after forcing it into bankruptcy, because it was a haven for Scientology apostates.

But back to the benign end of the apostate spectrum.

Apostasy, by original definition, is a "standing away from." When Revelation 16 says to "get out of her, my people," this is a command to become apostates from false ideologies.

Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition, in that all persons who convert to JWs from another religion, for example, are apostates from that other religion. Also, any who leave JWs because they can't live up to the moral standards or levels of activity expected, are "apostates" but JWs consider them generally harmless. Then there are those who leave because they no longer believe the teachings, but who don't say anything, and plan to keep very quiet about it, because they KNOW they might be seen as "malignant" apostate if they spoke up. Frederick Franz was infamous for trying to get persons declared apostate for even "thinking" that 1914 might be wrong, or some other teaching specific to Witnesses. 

But now, because of the phrase, "apostates do not drift away from the truth," those who "drift away" should not be seen as "apostates." Apostates, for purposes of the warnings in the talk, do not include those who drift away.

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

The absurdity of this idea has often been a talking point I would use with Bible Studies.

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to heaven, not only the 144,000 but even the great crowd of Revelation 7:14. The idea was that they would rule over the 20 billion people or more from "history" would be resurrected to the earth, including the faithful Hebrews of old, and of course the millions of persons then alive who would NOT be part of the great crowd, but who would never die because by 1925, the millennium's resurrection to earth would begin and living "worldly" people would stop getting sick. It was not clear that any Christians would remain with them on earth until the early 1930's.

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5 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

16Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil;

I replied - see my first paragraph. I AGREED with you and then went on to give my opinion on some of the other thoughts I have seen here. 

I am not writing a paper...... like some of the "scholars" here do in their replies.  On occasion I reply to a specific individual but mostly it is just opinion.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

So you acknowledge that the majority of Christians take the emblems without knowing they are to be priests and kings?  All going to heaven to judge whom?  

Most of them have so little knowledge of the bible and its morals, they will not be able to distinguish right from wrong. This is the reason so many churches now voting for LGBTQ. What about the scriptures which show that a great crowd will live through armageddon?  What about Rev 20 which indicates there will be nations on the earth during the 1000 years?

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to

What is the point today? We have understood the scriptures, which refer to the nations on the earth for a 1000 years,  for 84 years.  So this proves that if these scholars had the Spirit of jah they would have understood it too!

 

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

The Governing Body are often compared to Moses. *Though why is anyone's guess, as GB are not inspired) 

However, I tend to think on this. Although Moses did many good things in line with God's instructions, he did disobey God.

If my thinking is correct, Moses was told to 'speak to the rock' not to hit it. 

Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the congregation to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting and fell on their faces. The glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord spoke to Moses and said, "Take the staff, and then with Aaron your brother assemble all the community and, in front of them all, speak to the rock and it will yield water. You shall bring forth for them water from the rock, for them and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he had commanded him. Then he and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock, and said to them, "Listen to me, you rebels. Shall we bring forth water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed forth in abundance, and they all drank, men and beasts.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not lead this assembly into the land which I promised to give them."  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there is a lesson here to be learnt.  It seems that Moses jumped ahead of following God's instructions. It seems as if Moses was putting himself in the place of God. "Shall WE bring forth water.. " Instead of saying God will give you water.  

Does the Governing Body jump ahead of God's instructions ? 

Moses also called God's people 'rebels'.   Does the Governing Body judge God's people as rebels ?

We know for FACT that the Governing Body  'are not inspired of God' and that they 'make mistakes and err'.  So do they in fact deliberately run ahead of God's instructions ?  

This topic is about Apostates. But could not the Governing Body become apostates if they run ahead of God's instructions and deliberately make things up to suit their own needs ?  (the overlapping generations as one example). 

Mentally diseased. Who are we to judge ? Are the Governing Body using that term to their own advantage ?

Remember that Moses took it into his own head to take control "Shall WE bring forth water .. " 

Jesus spoke of water as a 'living water' 'life giving water', I believe. But we know Jesus was highly approved by his heavenly Father.   Is the water coming forth from the Governing Body, 'life giving water' from above ? Or is it man made 'water' and of no real use ?

Therefore if a person genuinely believes that the 'water' coming forth from the Governing Body is not approved of by Almighty God, and if then that person chooses to leave the Organisation, are they really 'mentally diseased apostates ?  I think Almighty God will decide through Jesus Christ as judge.. 

 

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On 11/10/2019 at 9:43 PM, Witness said:

Because of the act of shunning, wouldn’t you say that all four in our house are considered, “apostates”?

It sounds like a lot of JWs are treating all of you as if you were all apostates.

I've seen situations in households that sounded similar where the persons who were not disfellowshipped were still associated with as a way to continue to keep tabs on other persons. I've see situations where the non-disfellowshipped members had the exact same views as the disfellowshipped but family members continued to associate with the non-disfellowshipped ones as a means to continue having the semblance of some kind of family: especially to see children, grandchildren, etc. Also, I have seen cases, and this includes one of my now deceased uncles, who was baptized young, and disfellowshipped when he left as a teenager. Long before I was born, he would say stupid and terrible things about JWs and Jehovah, just to get a rise out of my mother and grandmother (his sister and mother). But over the years he settled down, got married, raised kids, took good care of his wife and his share of taking care of his mother and other elder aunts and uncles of his. But he couldn't come back to the JWs if he wanted to, because he was now an "affirmed" atheist/agnostic with no interest in religion - but no interest in speaking out against religion, either. By the time I was growing up, we never went out of our way to visit him and his family, but they were often over at my grandmother's house.

So, a disfellowshipped person, who is now an atheist and who doesn't focus on JWs is somewhere near the middle of this spectrum.

Some of the groups on the spectrum therefore include:

  • JWs in good standing who apostasized from other religions.
  • Former JW's who were not DF'd, but who drift away because they have no interest in speaking out against JWs. These would not really be distinguishable from those who drift into inactivity for unknown reasons.
  • Former JW's who were disfellowshipped and or who left because they couldn't live up to moral standards.
  • Former JW's who were disfellowshipped for any known reasons but so long ago that a kind of unwritten "statute of limitations" has run out, especially for purposes of associating with family and relatives.
  • Former JW's who were "stumbled" by something they saw, or experienced: abuse, 1925, 1975, changed teachings, etc.
  • Former JWs who didn't want to be d