"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the Book of Creation

Yeah, and in this Book is a law too, that one creature must kill another creature to survive.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Actually, the elder I mentioned previously has had a beard for many, many years, while an elder, well before 2015.

Ohh, than i can see this as an rare exception of the global, general rule on issue. :)) 

[JOHN BUTLER]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now now now. You threw this in as an afterthought and you should have left it out. Why not just say: “I am wise. Everyone else is stupid.”? It comes across as judgmental, Billy. And it serves no purpose. You have been at this for some time now, trying to make people behave on this worldly site as though they are in the Kingdom Hall. How’s that project going, anyway? If you choose to write on this forum, you must not write with only brothers in mind. You must write primarily for the non-Witnesses that might be lurking about. The brothers get their counsel at the Kingdom Hall.

It cannot be done--converting the worldnewsmedia into a congregation. You only shoot yourself in the foot when you try and you leave a not-so-hot witness by saying things like the above. The internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. From where did you receive the commission to declare: “Only 40 days more and the worldnewsmedia forum will be destroyed for its great badness”? You didn’t.

It could be argued that you are the most hypocritical one here. I have made no bones about being a bad boy in certain respects. Were I obedient to all aspects of counsel, I would not be here. That is equally true of you, but you don’t acknowledge it. Do you think the GB says: “There are a lot of yo-yos on that ‘out there’ website, but thank God, we have our man Billy to straighten them out”? No. They say: “Oh, man, that TTH is a screwball and now that gunslinger Billy is also carrying on! How come they don’t listen to us and stay on better channels?”

I am encouraged, Billy, and probably you are too, that ‘loyal’ ones seldom appear on this open club. If they come online, they stay in the closed club, which is spiritually more healthy. I like that. Don’t you? It shows an obedience on their part that neither you nor I display.

I have explained to you more than once my reasons for disregarding counsel on internet association. You don’t accept it, but they are still my reasons. I am a brother neither servant nor elder, though I have served in those capacities previously. I am universally liked in my circuit because I am a peacemaker and I am not wound up too tight, though there are probably a few who think I am a windbag. What am I going to tell them—that I’m not? Recently two elders approached me to say they would like to use me more in the congregation, but was there anything to the rumor that I associate with apostates? I told them that there was not, however what I did came close enough that it might easily be taken that way, and if we apply the direction given young people to all adults, then it clearly was that way, so for that sake we all decided it better to leave things just as they are.

I told them why I did what I did—that I learned a reporter who wrote several bad articles about us used a certain apostate Internet forum as his sole source. ‘If that’s the case, maybe others do as well. Maybe I can go there and plant some things that are more balanced,’ I told myself. I have put several long posts there, but afterwards I do not hang out. Each post produces a flurry of protests and I briefly answer a few, but after that I disappear. It is not a course that I recommend for others, and brothers usually get their heads handed to them on a platter when try, being severely outgunned and unprepared for the sheer onslaught that they trigger. It is being disobedient to counsel for me to do it, and I do not try to spin it otherwise. I would not presume to do it but for senior years, a long honed ability to write—if you do anything long enough, you tend to develop a knack for it—and enough humbling circumstances in life that I am not likely to become overly full of myself, much less go the way of these characters.

The rules are different here, Billy. It is not the congregation. If you knocked on a householder’s door who was a known ne’er do well and when he answered you saw some brothers inside, you might say to them: “Um, guys, do you really think that you should be here?” But if they did not respond, what would you do? Would you feel it your place to barge into that householder’s home and make those brothers behave as they ought? It is kind of what you are doing here.

We must respect our hostess here and abide by her rules--the Librarian, that old hen.

Given that I have chosen to be online, I commit no wrong in whatever association I have with @JW Insider. He has committed an extraordinary indiscretion, in my opinion, and I have done my duty as a brother in exhorting, even rebuking him, in the way that is most effective for me—by a skit painting him as the friendly but incredibly naïve poker player who fans out his full house for all to see. That’s about all I can do but it is what a brother should do. It will all be lost on him, most likely, because he sings the "theocracy dies in darkness" mantra more fervently than Jeff Bezos. Do you think that he ought to be disfellowshipped? If so, note that he is not, or at least if he is we don’t know about it, and can therefore with good conscience treat him as in good standing. And why is that the case--that he is not or that we don't know? Because this is the internet, and the internet cannot be made to behave as the congregation. Persons ought not be here if they cannot get their heads around that.

 

From @TrueTomHarley A personal letter to Billy the Kid. So why not in a personal folder 

And I still find it funny how you compare yourself to GB / JW rules when you say you've been a 'bad boy'.  

You go on about what the GB might have said and what the Elders said and how you 'justified yourself to men' (Elders), but no mention of Almighty God or Jesus Christ at all. 

You keep saying this is not a congregation on here. Every sentence is about the JW Org.

Tom please start thinking about GOD and JESUS CHRIST, not about pleasing men such as the GB and Elders. 

One good thing about being outside of the Org is that it gives a person a closer relationship with God through Christ.  And you have just proved that through your own writings. 

[TrueTomHarley]

32 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

From @TrueTomHarley A personal letter to Billy the Kid. So why not in a personal folder 

It would not have been there for you to comment on had I done that, would it?

[JOHN BUTLER]

To quote a Kid "we have the brightest minds at work here, let's act the part".

But what you have is human wisdom, not the Wisdom from God. 

As for harmony and unity, I think you are in the wrong house. That must be in the PRIVATE house.  . A place I will never be allowed to go. Still they have to hide somewhere I suppose. 

Quote the Kid "Can we believe whatever association here, is not flawed and is not outside the norm of Christian ethics? "

Explain the Christian ethics of your GB et al, regarding Child Abuse, shuning, and all the other issues, including misuse of scriptures such as 'the Superior Authorities',  'Faithful and Discreet slave' etc. 

The JW Org is not fit for purpose yet you condemn everyone else, that is so funny  .

You should be a politician Kid and you TTH. Politicians find fault with the opposition instead of looking inside their own 'crowd'. 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

There you go TTH, now I recognize you. Simply put, I need to bow down to apostasy in order not to be deleted (offend).

No

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, if I can’t have an afterthought and it shouldn’t be used, when you, James, JWinsider do the same, what would be the difference?

Did you notice that just after my post I put in another saying I was half-inclined to take it all back? It was for this consideration that I did it. Everyone else says what they have to say without triggering “hot compassionate rhetoric.” (well...actually, that’s not true) Why should it be different for you?

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Sorry, can’t do it for the sake of maintaining harmony and unity here.

There is no harmony and unity here.

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Anyone coming to this forum should understand we are not dealing with witnesses, but opposers. I never saw it any other way.

Okay. I think most everyone else understands that, too. I never misunderstood that point, either.

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

It is a mistake in your part to assume, 

Throw it on the stack. What’s one more?

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What is also a mistaken ideology, we can use such forums without scriptural consequences, because of its autonomy.

I am among the most tracable people here, doing nothing in secret. Did I not just say that I spoke to congregation elders, explaining what I was doing and why? What about you? Does anyone in the actual world know that you are BillyTheKid?

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

My point is, don’t complain about showing people the misrepresentation of scripture without the threat of being deleted. 

There’s no way on earth that you are going to be deleted unless you break a few lamps in The Librarian’s home. She’s a sensitive old biddy and she treasures her few material things.

 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

My point is, don’t complain about showing people the misrepresentation of scripture...either directly, indirectly, in a subtle way or with, subliminal messages.

Okay. Everyone else carries on here. Why shouldn’t you be able to as well?

But here is something for you to consider. We are encouraged to freely associate with our brothers (don’t misunderstand - there are few here that I regard as ‘our brothers’ but there are some) to build them up, exhort, encourage, and so forth. Until we hear that they are disfellowshipped, we regard them as brothers. Are we ever going to hear it here should it happen? No. Why? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

Now, in your actual congregation, are there brothers not disfellowshipped that you lambaste? I hope that is not the case. The only exception would be if someone had been marked (what verse is that, anyhow?) and you thought you knew who that one was. In that case, you would. But would you go around the congregation encouraging others to follow your course? You know how improper that would be.

My point is that online you don’t know who’s who. You never will. You don’t even know that I am a brother. I said I was, but I might be lying. The Internet is the land of the liars and that must be understood. But when you come online and harshly rip into ‘brothers’ with scripture, you are overstepping your bounds. That is the place of the elders. When brothers are yet in good standing and other brothers rip into them online tor doing this or that wrong—well, they would never do it offline. And it contributes to the wrong impression that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the most judgmental people on earth. Elders are the ones who should issue such discipline. You should not presume to step into their role, as though they were falling down on the job and you will take their place. And why don’t they fulfill their role here? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

It is not Witnesses that I am writing for, in the main. Loyal brothers are not going to frequent here. It is for non-Witnesses that I am writing. Whenever I address anyone, I am always primarily addressing the unknown audience that lies behind. And that, let me be honest (as usual), is a challenge that I very much enjoy. I don’t mean determined opposers. I mean unalliigned people. There may not be any. There may be many. You never know. They may come along afterwards.

I like witnessing to them, not to show that this or that doctrine that they may believe in is wrong, but to illustrate the mechanics and underlying reasonableness of the Christian congregation to people who may have been conditioned to think that we are anything but.

Call it PR, if you like. In general we are terrible at PR. If we are not explaining to non-Witnesses something about Christmas being pagan or telling them about the cute animals in paradise, we haven’t a clue how to speak with them, and there are a fair number of friends who will think that we shouldn’t. I like doing PR for the congregation to non-Witnesses on topics that aren’t entry level. I do it in the books I have written. I spend far far too much time here, except that it does in some ways not always tangible help with that undertaking.

“How’s that for saying what I mean?” you said. Not bad. How’s mine? We owe each other honesty.

[Witness]

21 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Christ words are not empty. We are the ones that make it so. Therefore, how can an ambassador of good will, that doesn’t walk in harmony with Christ, 1 Peter 2:21 be able to call him/her a part of spiritual Israel. 1 John 2:3-6 it goes against the teaching of a humble servant that we are all but have forgotten about Jesus that above all, held his faith with the utmost obedience.

Oh, but I do walk in harmony with Christ.  This does not require walking in harmony with the Watchtower. 

SHOULD THERE BE UNITY AT ALL COST? 

21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

BEING UNITED just to have peace involves a THOUSAND compromises ... and is a slippery slope that slides to error,  intellectually dishonesty, self delusion, theocratic hallucinations, the abandonment of JUSTICE, and dishonors both ourselves ... which intellectual integrity is where someone always has to start ... AND the Brotherhood ... and most importantly, Jehovah God.

A “worldly preacher” from decades ago said,

“If good men were all for union and bad men for division, or vice versa, that would simplify things for us. Or if it could be shown that God always unites and the devil always divides it would be easy to find our way around in this confused and confusing world. But that is not how things are. Light and darkness are incompatible; to try to have both in the same place at once is to try the impossible and end by having neither one nor the other, but dimness rather, and obscurity.

Truth is slain to provide a feast to celebrate the marriage of heaven and hell, and all to support a concept of unity which has no basis in the Word of God. When confused sheep start over a cliff the individual sheep can save himself only by separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. Power lies in the union of things similar and the division of things dissimilar. Maybe what we need today is not more union but some wise and courageous division.”

Watchtower’s historic false teachings are darkness, never were they light. Only a fool would say they were from Jesus Christ, who only imparts truth.  John 14:6  Only a fool would say they trust a leadership that runs the same institution that calls darkness “Beliefs Clarified”. 

Jesus Christ:

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
³⁶     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’^[a]

³⁷ “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. ³⁸ Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. ³⁹ Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.  Matt 10:34-39

This divisive sword between light and darkness was not put back in its sheath when Jesus was resurrected.

The Lord says to my lord:

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet.”

² The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
    “Rule in the midst of your enemies!”  Ps 110:1,2

 

Those who desire to follow the light of Christ; and who reject all darkness, all teachings that have proved to be rotten, are the ones who may have lost their loved ones, for the sake of Christ, for the sake of obtaining light.   John 8:12; Matt 7:15:20; John 15:16; Rev 13:15    As long as they remain with Christ, they will never walk in darkness.  WT’s leaders lead sheep on vast, “slippery” trails of darkness.  It has been proven to be so. 

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”  Luke 8:17

“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. ²² Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy?

 Are we stronger than he?” 1 Cor 10:21,22

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

42 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You should be a politician Kid and you TTH. 

Vote the Kid-TTH ticket for 2020!

Hey, you never know. Pundits don’t like Trump and regard most of the Democrat challengers as lightweights. Who can say how it might turn out?

”I promise, if I am elected, to solemnly serve to the best of my ability and to search out the lowlifes of the worldnewsmedia and throw them all into jail.”

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No

Did you notice that just after my post I put in another saying I was half-inclined to take it all back? It was for this consideration that I did it. Everyone else says what they have to say without triggering “hot compassionate rhetoric.” (well...actually, that’s not true) Why should it be different for you?

There is no harmony and unity here.

Okay. I think most everyone else understands that, too. I never misunderstood that point, either.

 

Throw it on the stack. What’s one more?

 

I am among the most tracable people here, doing nothing in secret. Did I not just say that I spoke to congregation elders, explaining what I was doing and why? What about you? Does anyone in the actual world know that you are BillyTheKid?

 

There’s no way on earth that you are going to be deleted unless you break a few lamps in The Librarian’s home. She’s a sensitive old biddy and she treasures her few material things.

 

Okay. Everyone else carries on here. Why shouldn’t you be able to as well?

But here is something for you to consider. We are encouraged to freely associate with our brothers (don’t misunderstand - there are few here that I regard as ‘our brothers’ but there are some) to build them up, exhort, encourage, and so forth. Until we hear that they are disfellowshipped, we regard them as brothers. Are we ever going to hear it here should it happen? No. Why? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

Now, in your actual congregation, are there brothers not disfellowshipped that you lambaste? I hope that is not the case. The only exception would be if someone had been marked (what verse is that, anyhow?) and you thought you knew who that one was. In that case, you would. But would you go around the congregation encouraging others to follow your course? You know how improper that would be.

My point is that online you don’t know who’s who. You never will. You don’t even know that I am a brother. I said I was, but I might be lying. The Internet is the land of the liars and that must be understood. But when you come online and harshly rip into ‘brothers’ with scripture, you are overstepping your bounds. That is the place of the elders. When brothers are yet in good standing and other brothers rip into them online tor doing this or that wrong—well, they would never do it offline. And it contributes to the wrong impression that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the most judgmental people on earth. Elders are the ones who should issue such discipline. You should not presume to step into their role, as though they were falling down on the job and you will take their place. And why don’t they fulfill their role here? Because the Internet is not the congregation and cannot be made to behave like one. No wonder the GB prefers that you and I stay off it.

It is not Witnesses that I am writing for, in the main. Loyal brothers are not going to frequent here. It is for non-Witnesses that I am writing. Whenever I address anyone, I am always primarily addressing the unknown audience that lies behind. And that, let me be honest (as usual), is a challenge that I very much enjoy. I don’t mean determined opposers. I mean unalliigned people. There may not be any. There may be many. You never know. They may come along afterwards.

I like witnessing to them, not to show that this or that doctrine that they may believe in is wrong, but to illustrate the mechanics and underlying reasonableness of the Christian congregation to people who may have been conditioned to think that we are anything but.

Call it PR, if you like. In general we are terrible at PR. If we are not explaining to non-Witnesses something about Christmas being pagan or telling them about the cute animals in paradise, we haven’t a clue how to speak with them, and there are a fair number of friends who will think that we shouldn’t. I like doing PR for the congregation to non-Witnesses on topics that aren’t entry level. I do it in the books I have written. I spend far far too much time here, except that it does in some ways not always tangible help with that undertaking.

“How’s that for saying what I mean?” you said. Not bad. How’s mine? We owe each other honesty.

@TrueTomHarley PR ? So you are here to put the JW side over to non Witnesses and me and a couple of others are here to tell them the truth.

A good balance i think Tom. Only I'm not using people, to write a book or earn money  . i have the genuine feeling and safety of people as my reason. 

Just because i don't know what is perfectly correct does not mean I don't know what is totally wrong.  

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So you are here to put the JW side over to non Witnesses and me

No. Not to you at present.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Just because i don't know what is perfectly correct does not mean I don't know what is totally wrong.  

Unfortunately, it does. You’ve lost all sense of balance. Everything that is not glistening white is jet black to you. That might be okay if life was that way. But it’s not.

[JOHN BUTLER]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. Not to you at present.

Unfortunately, it does. You’ve lost all sense of balance.

Lost all sense of balance have I ? 

Well if i wanted to drive to Scotland I wouldn't know the exact route, but I'd know not to go to Cornwall as it's in the complete opposite direction.

Similarly the more I'm finding out about the JW Org and the GB, the more I know it is the wrong direction. The only difference is the GB and it's Org could change if God chose to change it. But right now my balance and conscience tell me to stay away from it.

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

"The best sign of truth is simplicity and clarity, the lie is always intricate, tawdry and eloquent." - Tolstoy

"The lie does not kill with the mallet, but it runs through blood vessels like poison, slowly and cautiously, so it does not even notice how it works" - Ivan Cankar