"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

[TrueTomHarley]

My throat got dry on the trail the other day so I stopped in at the saloon for a brew. I grabbed my mug, threaded my way through the floozies after telling the barkeep to keep those drinks coming, and settled in for some serious contemplation of the vicissitudes of life.

”Join us for some poker, pardner?” came a friendly voice from the next table. A Chilean flag flew over that table on some days, but not others. Why not indulge him? I took the chair offered and the dealer shot out the cards. The friendly stranger took a quick peak at his then put them face down on the table.

Presently, looking sly as could be, he picked his cards up again and slowly fanned them face side out, and I was surprised to see that he had a full house. I heard some tittering from the floozies, and I weighed his hand against mine with an inward smile. I would hand this gringo his head on a platter.

My conscience started to beat me. This was going to be too easy, like taking candy from a baby, and I don’t cotton to beating up on babies. “Say stranger,” I said. “Did you know that you are doing it all backwards?” 

”Don’t worry,” he replied. “I know what I’m doing. The public has a right to know.”

”Maybe some good will come out of it,” he spoke up again. “The name’s @JW Insider, by the way. Pleased to meet you. Maybe we’ll have the pleasure to meet again someday ,” he said chattily as I raked in every dollar he had laid down.

How’s that for admiring him, @BillyTheKid46? Out here on the trail everything is relative.

“Admirin’s got nothing to do with it.” 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

why not be that light in a dark place, as far as it depends upon you?

It’s a far nicer response than I was cooking up. Let’s see what comes of it.

[Witness]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Your entire response here and in one or two earlier posts in this thread appear to be exactly what I would expect to hear from an anointed person. I believe you speak out in the hope that readers will reject the falsehoods and accept truths in their place. Which is fine. Perhaps you also want all readers to reject the entire association with the JW Organization, as you think it has gotten so far off track. This is where I think you are being impractical.

On the first count, obviously we should reject all falsehoods and accept truths to the best of our ability. On the second part, what do you think would be wrong with continuing to associate with the same brotherhood from which has sprung so many truly anointed persons? And then, if one considers himself to be anointed, continuing to bear righteous spiritual fruit (love, joy, peace, etc) that will have a positive and upbuilding effect on others.

I don't consider myself anointed, of course, but this (above) is also the same thing I believe I would try to do if I were. If you believe the GB are creating a "dark place" for other anointed persons, why not be that light in a dark place, as far as it depends upon you? Perhaps you personally are in a situation where you have been kicked out of the synagogue for calling the leaders blind, and it seems nearly impossible or unfruitful to go back. But if other anointed persons decided to merely set a good example of "shining as illuminators" among the same brotherhood in which they were called, do you think it would be wrong for them to remain in the state they were called? Since we were effectively called as slaves into a certain "household of faith" I think 1 Cor 7:19-24 gives a thought that might be related:

(1 Cor 7:19-24) Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what means something is the observing of God’s commandments. ²⁰  In whatever state each one was called, let him remain in it. ²¹  Were you called when a slave? Do not let it concern you; but if you can become free, then seize the opportunity. ²²  For anyone who was called in the Lord when a slave is the Lord’s freedman; likewise anyone who was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. ²³  You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men. ²⁴  In whatever state each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it before God.

Believe me, what you propose could never happen.  In order for me to be accepted back into the organization I would have to repent for my “apostate” ways….for rejecting 1914, for rejecting the rulership of an elder body and GB who expect full devotion to their teachings (falsehoods or not).   For turning completely to the Father and Christ, realizing an organization is not needed to be guided by Holy Spirit  I would have to basically lie to get back in; and, once reinstated, wouldn’t I be condoning the very falsehoods I was disfellowshipped for rejecting initially?  Rev 2:2; 2 Cor 6:17; Rev 18:4

I do appreciate your sincerity, but I don’t think you realize how many anointed have been disfellowshipped, and how many have been bullied by the elder body for speaking up. 

To be “shining as illuminators” we are to speak truth. Ezek 13:17  Anyone who illuminates truth and exposes a lie in the organization is disfellowshipped. It’s much different when speaking here on a forum about Watchtower’s lies, then voicing your disapproval of doctrine or false rulership among the very ones you see many times a week.  Before I was disfellowshipped, I shared my troubled concerns about a few topics with three very close friends.  Immediately, and I mean within minutes after hearing me out, they cut me off.  I never heard from them again. They did this because of their own fear of also being disfellowshipped, if they were to sympathize with my concerns, if they were to listen any further to what I had to say.      Can you see? What you are saying is pie in the sky.  How far do you believe truth, that deviates from the GB's teachings, from the mouth of someone like me or any anointed one, will get them? 

My initial comment is about the Man of Lawlessness. You mentioned the organization has “sprung so many anointed ones”.  This isn’t by accident, but fulfills prophesy. Rev 13:5-7; 20:7-9  The Man of Lawlessness “tramples” the anointed Temple. 1 Cor 3:16,17 They, the priesthood, are kept quiet and not allowed to be “illuminators” of truth.  2 Thess 2:3,4,8,9; Matt 24:15

Do you believe it is approved by God to shun or disfellowship anyone who speaks aloud and exposes such lies?  The organization isn’t God or Jesus, but a rather new development created by men who require loyalty to what they have built.    Remember Russell said,

"Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.)

My conscience would not allow me to re-enter a faulty operation of error.  Jesus did not expect his people to tolerate false teachings from the Pharisees. Matt 15:14 Should we do so today?  Every false and failed teaching uttered by the GB shows them up for being blind teachers.  If truth brings us salvation, why would we settle for anything less?  John 14:6; 17:3,17

James 4:17 -   “So it is sin to know the good and yet not do it.”

To remain in the “same state in which you were called “(1 Cor 7:20) doesn’t apply to remaining where false teachings exist because that is not something God, Jesus or the apostles taught us to do.  1 Cor 10:21,22; Ps 26:4  If remaining in the same state is as you say, I could apply it to being a mother, a wife, a sister, a child of a mother and father, while also doing God's will as an anointed one.   If you’ll notice verse 23 – “You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men”.  I was a slave to men, should I remain in that same state?  The elders have authority over the anointed ones by the decree of men.  It isn't Bible-based.  Most certainly, no anointed one will be allow  to “shine” the light of truth that comes from one’s own heart.  You mentioned once, JWI, that you seemed to notice many of the anointed were not mentally sound, if I am right in what I remember.  My first reaction was one of defensiveness; but I have thought about your statement, and I realize that preventing an anointed heart to speak out independently from the GB and elder body, causes emotional and spiritual breakdown. To be told that they are not to bond together or study the Bible together, or not to reach out to other anointed members of the Body, can subconsciously, without realizing it, cause spiritual pain.  I was at that point, even if I thought all was well, I suffered mental heaviness and depression.  Holy Spirit is living, and if an anointed heart succumbs to men’s wishes and resists its power, I believe mental unstableness and depression does result. Phil 2:12,13,16  (Acts 7:51; Isa 63:10)

Just consider what comprises God’s Temple. Rev 11:19; 14:1-5   Every anointed priest who is sealed into it must be found blameless and pure, “with no lie found in their mouths.” That is an impossibility if they accept false teachings, past or present, and allow men to mold their thinking, instead of Jesus Christ.  John 14:6

That is the organization’s mantra, and the criteria necessary to be one of its accepted members. 

The apostle Paul, a foundation stone of the Holy City of Truth (Zech 8:3; Eph 2:19-22):

“Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. ² By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

20 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What do you think TTH? 2 Corinthians 6:14

Sigh.... Witness trying to pull me from the bright side to the dark side.

Billy trying to pull me from the dark side to the bright side.

What’s a TTH to do?

Nonetheless, there are abundant scriptures here from someone whose motive is not to show that the GB is doing it all wrong whereas she can do it all right even though she is not doing anything at all so far I can see in contrast to they who are doing things abundantly. 

I’ll review them. Not now, it’s late. But tomorrow.

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But if other anointed persons decided to merely set a good example of "shining as illuminators" among the same brotherhood in which they were called, do you think it would be wrong for them to remain in the state they were called?

 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

My conscience would not allow me to re-enter a faulty operation of error.

 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

To remain in the “same state in which you were called “(1 Cor 7:20) doesn’t apply to remaining where false teachings exist because that is not something God, Jesus or the apostles taught us to do.  1 Cor 10:21,22; Ps 26:4 

Job 14:4 King James Version (KJV)

⁴ Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. .......perhaps only God can do this? Question is, would He using for such task; some of JW, some of Waking JW, some of ex-JW, some of Elders? .... and so on.

Dear JW Insider, to set good example and shining - with good, proper, kind, truthful and loving deeds and words are necessary  in all and every thing in our life. But would that be enough, would that be possible in Environment of JW Society and their Culture how to deal with Different even Opposite?  

Perhaps spirit of God can give such strength to some individual to Stay and to Survive in Such State, in such Organization. But...?!  Recall Elijah 1 Kings 19. Israel people want to kill him because of his shinning. Is it different in "Spiritual Israel" today? Some JW made suicide, some was cut off socially/spiritually from other JW by Elders Judicial Judgement and suffer. Not me, i not suffer, because i decided to left. I suffer in other ways :)) 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Each one has to obey the dictates of his own individual conscience ....  that is what makes us,  US ... and not merely, only, and very, very sadly ..... just  animals.

NOTHING MORE

 

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I’ll review them. Not now, it’s late. But tomorrow.

Okay. Done. It was a good review, @BillyTheKid46. Thank you for that.

I like them. They’re scriptures.

For the most part, though, they are long passages of scripture. From each, one might draw 12 different lessons. You must tell me which one you would like me to draw.

I say this not to be difficult, but to be genuine. I will take counsel from you, for I respect where you are coming from. Still, if you are going to offer counsel, you must do it as the Benefit book advises. 

You cannot just throw a boatload of scriptures at someone then get mad if they do not glean from it whatever unspecified thing that you want them to glean. That is not too much different from what Witness does coming from the other direction. I have called her scriptures “irrelevant.” They’re only irrelevant because she rarely makes specific applications. She just throws a few chapters at you, convinced she is thereby proving her point. She’s not. Don’t be like her. 

Somewhere the Benefit book says that in reading even one verse, (let alone dozens) you cannot just assume that your audience gets the connection that you wish to make. You must plainly state what that connection is.

AND, don’t forget, unless you’re goal is simply to slap people down, which is a goal that should be most rare for a Christian, you must convey Christlike concern for your audience, making use of winsome words and not wincing words.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Billy:

I agree with all you said above ... BUT...

We should all be united in what is true, what is honorable, what is fair, what is equitable, what is righteous, what is good, and what is wholesome.

BEING UNITED just to have peace involves a THOUSAND compromises ... and is a slippery slope that slides to error,  intellectually dishonesty, self delusion, theocratic hallucinations, the abandonment of JUSTICE, and dishonors both ourselves ... which intellectual integrity is where someone always has to start ... AND the Brotherhood ... and most importantly, Jehovah God.

It all starts  ... here on the dirt, where the rubber meets the road ... is  the determination, without compromise ... to achieve intellectual integrity .

FIRST

You cannot have TRUTH ... without intellectual integrity.

OTHERWISE ... we may be the finest "Brother Watchtower"  that walks the Earth ... but we will be intellectually dishonest ... like a plague, that takes a 30 year incubation period for the consequences to show up.

You cannot have TRUTH ... without intellectual integrity.

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

30 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

theocratic hallucinations

for the first time heard this expression, very good, thanks!

[JOHN BUTLER]

I continue to find it funny how some folks take the scriptures and only apply them to the JW Org. 

The Catholics would apply the scriptures to themselves too, and the Anglicans etc..

I think folks should stop kidding themselves and remember that those scriptures in the Christian Greek 'half' of the Bible applied to the Anointed. 

And in my opinion they still belong to and apply to the Anointed.  Your 8 Americans are not the Anointed. So many of you are being misled.     So be it, because you are being misled because you want to be. 

James, a family of say 8 people, 2 parents and 6 children, are usually not united these days.  Billy's scriptures applied to the Anointed not the earthly class. Don't hope for too much in this system. 

Hope you are all well. I felt closer to God being out in the woodlands today, much closer than being in a Kingdom Hall, and no shirt and tie

[Srecko Sostar]

17 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I felt closer to God being out in the woodlands today,

Nature is great. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Billy's scriptures applied to the Anointed not the earthly class. Don't hope for too much in this system. 

Look, the only people who have a clue that there even is such a thing as anointed as separate from every person just trying to be good is Jehovah’s Witnesses, and you have severed ties with them. 

 

32 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I felt closer to God being out in the woodlands today,

I felt closer to God being out in the woodlands today,

Nature is great. 

It is, but it is the Book of Creation. It testifies much about God, enough to feel close to him, but by no means all.