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Is Jesus presence began in 1914, why hasn't the MOL (clergy class) been destroyed?


Noble Berean

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"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?

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"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

An even more interesting question should be: if the man of illegality is the clergy of Christianity, it should be the main part of Babylon the Great, is not it? How is the man of iniquity destroyed by

Good point! I think the usual answer is: just wait, it will happen. His presence is invisible, so the "manifestation" is at the culmination of his presence before the judgment.

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An even more interesting question should be: if the man of illegality is the clergy of Christianity, it should be the main part of Babylon the Great, is not it?
How is the man of iniquity destroyed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ (hence directly from Christ) while Babylon the Great is destroyed by the United Nations? Writing says that God (not Christ) will put in the hearts of these kings to carry out his thinking of destroying Babylon the Great.
It puts the thought (God, not Christ) but God does not destroy it directly.
Instead, the man of iniquity will be destroyed by the spirit of the mouth of Christ

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11 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

@JW Insider in all seriousness, is there any clear, scriptural evidence for a two-part presence?

If you want to ask if the presence of Christ is one thing and the destruction of the satanic system is another (different also for times of fulfillment) the answer is yes.
The "kingdom of the world" becomes the kingdom of God and of Christ at the sound of the seventh trumpet (an event you can read in Revelation 11:15).
Obviously, if this event is related to the seventh trumpet (that is, at the last one), it is evident that before then other six trumpets (all related to the will of God) have been played.
So the presence of Christ is before his "coming", or his coming to destroy the world of Satan.
After the sound of the seventh trumpet, many things still happen (all things described in chapter 11 and beginning of chapter 19) so it is understood that although the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of Christ, the world still has time to "act" before destruction (for example, with the persecution of God's people, as Daniel 7:25 says).
So the presence of Christ (paurusia) and his arrival as a ruler, if we simply read the Revelation text without conditioning, we understand that there are two distinct things over time.
The underlying problem, if anything, is the date chosen for the "presence" and also the difference of time that would pass from the established of the Kingdom of God and the destruction of the satanic system.
I'm sorry to go against the official teaching, but both Revelation and Daniel make it clear that since the establishment of the Kingdom of God until the Armageddon War, have passed little more than three and a half years (and they are also the "short time" to Satan and not 100 years or more)

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11 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

 in all seriousness, is there any clear, scriptural evidence for a two-part presence?

As IBA has just indicated, you can get such evidence through interpretation, and interpretations may be wide-ranging . . . and therefore more often wrong than right, even when serious, sensible and sincerely held. But interpretations are not the same as clear evidence.

My first impulsive answer to the specific question would be, "Yes, there is evidence for a two-part presence, but not a two-part parousia. There are no scriptures that would indicate a two-part parousia. But Jesus said that he would be present with us from the time of his resurrection, right up until the synteleia.

  • (Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion [synteleia]  of the system of things.”

Technically, using Watchtower definitions, this would mean that Jesus would be present right up until 1914, the start of the synteleia.

We know from Matthew 24 that the disciples understood the synteleia to be the same as the parousia. (Probably, synteleia meant "end of all things" and parousia meant "the royal visitation judgment event.") So their question had to do with how they could identify the time period just before the parousia/synteleia so they could have an advance warning, and Jesus gave them an answer that says, basically,

  • "Sorry, there will be no warning signs, because the parousia/synteleia will come as a thief. You might think that wars and earthquakes and famines will be the signs you are asking about, because these things will definitely take place, but don't be misled, these are not true signs of the end. So you will just have to expect trouble all throughout this generation until the parousia/synteleia is upon you, and use the time to prepare to preach and to be ready for anything."

But even if you agree that this is what Jesus was saying, this is still just an interpretation of what Jesus said. There are a lot of things in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that support the interpretation, but there are many religions, not just Witnesses, that are able to read it differently: as if Jesus really was giving them warning signs that would match Revelation 12's "short period of time" leading up to his parousia/synteleia. Or, as our own publications have explained it since around 1943/44: that this parousia/synteleia would have started in 1914, somewhere between 30 years and a maximum of, say, 185* years prior to the final judgment manifestation of that same parousia/synteleia. (At 103+ years since the start, we would now be just over half-way through that possible range.)

*Depending on how long Brother Sanderson, for example, might live on earth.

It would be nice if it were more clear-cut, but it's basically a matter of interpretation. Like an imaginary experience I had in field service:

  • JW: Knock, knock
  • Hello?
  • JW: Hello. Today, I'd like to talk to you about this article in the latest Awake! on Spiritism. Did you know there are invisible spirits around us right now?
  • Invisibility? I just can't see that.
  • JW: Well let me make myself clear!'
  • [Went back for a return visit, but nothing materialized.]

 

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Yes, I agree with you that, JW Insider, there are many ways to understand that between paurusia and synteleia passes for a certain amount of time and that is not the same thing.
There are many scriptures that make this and not only Revelation (however Revelation should be more than enough).
Obviously I disagree on 1914 and not even on the concept of "overlapping generation" but this is another matter.
Beyond the interpretations, the Bible makes it clear that the seventh trumpet is really "the seventh", that sounds after the sixth, fifth, and so on.
To skim any doubt and every interpretation, we see that Paul identifies the last trumpet (that is, that concerning spiritual resurrection) as "the last" - 1 Corinthians 15:52
So if the last trumpet is really the last one, how is this sound in 1914 while the sixth plays in 1922, the fifth in 1919 and so on?
There are a thousand ways to refute the current official chronology and Revelation is one of these thousand

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On 11/4/2017 at 12:34 PM, Noble Berean said:

"Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?

The “lawless one” of 2 Thess 2:8 is the same “son of perdition” (man of sin, destruction) in verse 3:

“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition”

Verse 4 – “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

Is the temple of God found among the clergy of Christendom? 

From Wt.’s it-1 pp. 1133-1134 “ Inasmuch as the place where God dwells is a sanctuary, a holy place, the Christian congregation is also likened to a holy place, the temple of God. (1Co 3:17; Eph 2:21, 22   While on earth, the anointed followers of Jesus Christ are spoken of as “being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood” and as constituting “a royal priesthood.” (1Pe 2:5, 9) As the underpriests served in the courtyard and also in the Holy Place, so these Christian priests of God serve before his symbolic altar and also in the symbolic Holy Place. The priests of Israel had to be clean, so when they were preparing to serve in the Holy Place they washed themselves with water from the copper basin in the courtyard. (Ex 40:30-32) So, too, those Christians who have been declared righteous are said to be “washed clean.”

The anointed are God's Temple.

“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?  If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are”.  1 Cor 3:16,17

“And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” 6 Cor 6:16 (1 Pet 2:5,9)

The “man of lawlessness” is not found in Christendom, but where the temple of God exists – in the organization.  Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones…

“Persons comprising the anointed Christian congregation of God are spiritual Israelites, forming the tribes of spiritual Israel”  it-1 pp. 496-500

 …but they are ruled over by spiritual “Gentiles”– the elder body, and whom they must obey.   The “man of lawlessness” has been revealed.

This is an “abomination” standing in the holy place of Matt 24:15  Why an abomination?  The anointed priesthood are the only ones to serve in that capacity within God’s Temple as outlined by the early temple arrangement.  The elders have not been authorized by God to represent the priesthood – they have only been authorized by men. Num 3:10; 18:7; 2 Chron 23:7; 13:9; Ezek 44:6-9; Dan 11:31

“Do those of the other sheep need to know the names of all those who are anointed today? The short answer is no.

 In addition, anointed Christians do not view themselves as being part of an elite club. They do not seek out others who claim to have the same calling, hoping to bond with them or endeavoring to form private groups for Bible study.” w16 January pp. 22-27

 “What connection is there between appointed elders and the royal priesthood?  Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not.”  w02 8/1 pp. 9-14

Such a bullish statement.  None of the above quotes or articles as a whole are founded on scripture.  According to the Father and the “permanent statute” for the priesthood, there is no “representing” his priests or entrance into his Temple by anyone else.  Exod 25:1,9,22,40; 27:21,28:1,4,41; 29:44; 30:25,31-33  

Further prophesy shows the abomination in Rev 11:1-3  “Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

2 Thess 2:1 - “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,  not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. “

The source of this letter are the leaders of the Watchtower, which refers to the day of Christ’s coming in 1914.

 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition”.

 “And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. (1 Cor 3:16,17)  It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.  Rev 13:5-7

If any JW sees this abomination, they are to flee.  All should flee, but sadly, only a small number will do so.  Matt 7:13-19

“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake (anointed) those days will be shortened.”  (Matt 15:22-24)

 

 

 

 

 

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But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. 15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. 17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. 18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord: 19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: 20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. 21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. 22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. 23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt. 30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. 36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. 37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. 38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
    • 3 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years. 2 And he wrought evil in the sight of the Lord; but not like his father, and like his mother: for he put away the image of Baal that his father had made. 3 Nevertheless he cleaved unto the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which made Israel to sin; he departed not therefrom. 4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheepmaster, and rendered unto the king of Israel an hundred thousand lambs, and an hundred thousand rams, with the wool. 5 But it came to pass, when Ahab was dead, that the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. 6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel. 7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses. 8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom. 9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them. 10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab! 11 But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the Lord, that we may enquire of the Lord by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah. 12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the Lord is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him. 13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the Lord hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab. 14 And Elisha said, As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee. 15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him. 16 And he said, Thus saith the Lord, Make this valley full of ditches. 17 For thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts. 18 And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. 19 And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. 20 And it came to pass in the morning, when the meat offering was offered, that, behold, there came water by the way of Edom, and the country was filled with water. 21 And when all the Moabites heard that the kings were come up to fight against them, they gathered all that were able to put on armour, and upward, and stood in the border. 22 And they rose up early in the morning, and the sun shone upon the water, and the Moabites saw the water on the other side as red as blood: 23 And they said, This is blood: the kings are surely slain, and they have smitten one another: now therefore, Moab, to the spoil. 24 And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country. 25 And they beat down the cities, and on every good piece of land cast every man his stone, and filled it; and they stopped all the wells of water, and felled all the good trees: only in Kirharaseth left they the stones thereof; howbeit the slingers went about it, and smote it. 26 And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not. 27 Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
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