"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

TrueTomHarley · March 21, 2019

*

TrueTomHarley · March 21, 2019

Why are they not here, Billy, so that you should decide to do what you think they would do if they were here?

This forum doesn’t do the “damage” that you may think it does. It is so long-winded that it is hard for even the participants to keep up. I haven’t. You don’t have to correct everything that needs correction. You can just bury it in verbiage. By correcting it, especially with harshness, you simply call attention to it. And, since you don’t know if ones here are in good standing or not, you contribute to the wrong impression that JWs are very judgmental people.

Frankly, I think that I defuse this nonsense better than you. You chastise those who in your view have stepped out of line, and that includes most everyone.

I chime in with zingers and remarks downright zany, which lends to the impression that the whole place is a bunch of nuts.

We’re on the same side, really, going about the same thing in different ways. I am not going to allow a division be made between us. I’m just not.

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Knowing that we shall get along just fine. Luke 17:3

It works for me.

There was a fellow here, I think before your time, name of AllenSmith. Your comments remind me of his in many respects. He had some unique and even brilliant takes, offering insights found nowhere else on this forum. He was also very sharp at times, and this sharpness got him into some hot water with The Librarian (that old hen). In private messages I found (to my surprise) that I liked him a lot.

He once remarked online to me: “You stay out of my way and I’ll stay out of yours.” That works for me, too.

The persona and methods I adopt here are not necessarily the ones I would adopt in person.

JW Insider · March 21, 2019

TTH, Am I going to have to actually go back and read this entire thread? I tried to avoid reading it, by only scanning for comments on the Chilean flag portion. But it has become pretty obvious that I have been referenced by others more often than I have even made comments here in this thread. Don't know why I ever became a sub-topic here.

On 3/20/2019 at 2:29 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Given that I have chosen to be online, I commit no wrong in whatever association I have with @JW Insider. He has committed an extraordinary indiscretion, in my opinion, and I have done my duty as a brother in exhorting, even rebuking him, in the way that is most effective for me . . . .

The rebuke was effective. I will be holding my cards close to the vest for the next few weeks. If I feel that my conscience is still clean, and there is no more reason to speak up anywhere about the things I have seen and heard, then I will happily remove myself completely and no longer comment in public about the controversies and issues that I currently think should be brought to light. For the record, I have not participated on any other public forum (with minor exceptions several years ago) before coming to this one when it was jw-archive.org. So this would not be a matter of merely moving to another forum.

14 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would say, you demand as much as Anna, James, JWinsider when it comes to the role an Elder and the governing body has within Christ Church.

. . . . Luke 17:3. . .

Therefore, read your own words carefully, and learn what you mean about rebuke when you do the same.

Luke 17:3 of course says something like: "So watch yourselves. 'If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.' "

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I am not going to allow . . .

Taking a strong stand or using a "loaded" bit of vocabulary has often triggered BTK (and persons just like him) to re-use the exact same words or expression back at the person he was conversing with. Although it was buried deep within your post, I read this, above, and fully expected BTK to use the same expression back at you. He came very close.

5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I will not allow . . .

That minor quirk might relate to what you say below about another person that BTK reminds you of, but it is intentionally easy to disclaim this one as meaningless. It's just a friendly reminder that other similar reactions might not be unexpected. In my opinion, it's only one of literally hundreds of examples.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There was a fellow here, I think before your time, name of AllenSmith. Your comments remind me of his in many respects. He had some unique and even brilliant takes, offering insights found nowhere else on this forum.

You are not implying it at all, but if BTK is AllenSmith "reincarnated," then I am very happy he is still here. Both Allen and BTK have very often provided unique insights that have been valuable in providing additional sides of an issue. But there may also be a dark lesson to be learned in the idea that a person can feel very distraught by having a past persona wiped out, and his prior comments removed as if worthless. It is probably akin to the removal of a person who has been disfellowshipped for matters of conscience, leaving them with no way to return, as if they have been wiped off the face of the earth, with loss of all prior connections that meant a lot to them. It's no wonder that we've seen people here refer to the process of disfellowshipping and shunning as a type of "murder." It must be worse for a person who feels that a forum is akin to a congregation in need of shepherding. (Sorry, my cards are showing again!)

I should add that BTK's comments also remind of AllenSmith in another way. When he quotes from other sources, or when he runs a comment through a Microsoft product before posting it here, those comments will reformat with extra gaps between paragraphs. When I checked the html "source code" of Allen's comments, they previously matched BTK's "source code" and have been the only ones on the forum that contained the following <class> and definitions. Both of the following examples are from above in this thread:

----------------------------

I would say, you demand as much as Anna, James, JWinsider when it comes to the role an Elder and the governing body has within Christ Church.

As for knowing people are liars, I agree and I treat everyone as such. I don’t hold preferences as you do. I don’t admire apostasy as you do.

This gives away another research trick but it's a simple and useful one for cyber forensics. By contrast. Here are your own, TTH. Mine are the same, with no extra mso options:


We’re on the same side, really, going about the same thing in different ways. I am not going to allow a division be made between us. I’m just not.


----------------------

This is not any indication that BTK is doing anything wrong. No matter what, he is completely within his rights to speak up as he does, and I appreciate it. If someone is going to publicly present an opinion or information they believe is true, it is always important to have someone with a different or opposite opinion providing their own information. It is what we often need to keep from just merely falling for the first (or last) opinion we hear on a topic. It's one of the reasons I always argued to keep Allen from being removed, as admins can attest.

BTK is trying to root apostasy from this site. I think there has been too much apostasy on this site, too. But I also think all apostates should have a place to express their views in public as it also provides a double-check on the men who may have judged them as apostate. I think that even within the congregation all disfellowshippings for apostasy should be argued in front of the entire congregation so that the rebuke of the majority can be clear. Accessible public forums may be the next best thing. I also think that all of us should be able to comment from the heart about anything stated in the congregation or on jw.org. There is no current forum for many of us to comment honestly from the heart, and no comments section on jw.org. The only comments allowed in a congregational setting must be completely supportive even if the paragraph contained information that was clearly unscriptural. In some cases those unscriptural ideas have already been corrected over the years, but in other cases they would have been corrected more quickly if all persons felt comfortable answering honestly from the heart.

Of course, BTK has the idea (that we keep going back to) that no one should be allowed to publicly disagree with a current Watchtower doctrine, policy, or practice. He even appears to believe that past mistakes and corrections were possibly part of Jehovah's plan, so that they were not really mistakes, after all. He also thinks that someone is literally apostate if they disagree with the current eschatology. Of course, our eschatology is tied so closely to teachings about the anointed, the great crowd, the faithful slave, specifics of prophetic explanations, the definition of generation, etc., that his position could be understandable.

JOHN BUTLER · March 21, 2019

It seems than that the Kid is trying to run the show, and give orders to others. He seems to have learnt his ways from the GB and the Elders.

I do wish people would fully understand the word Apostate though. And isn't this the OPEN forum for all of us.

Don't JW's have a private/ closed forum for themselves ? So where is the problem for that poor child Kid. Can't he just go to the Private forum and be happy there ?

@JW Insider Quote "The only comments allowed in a congregational setting must be completely supportive even if the paragraph contained information that was clearly unscriptural. "

Thank you JWI, this is so true and so wrong. And it's a form of brainwashing, a ritual by parrot fashion answering. Basically just repeating what the W/t article states as 'fact' when in truth it is not fact.

When you think of it that's how they teach evolution in schools. If it's in the text book it has to be right. Just as if it's in the W/t it has to be right.

Can people not see the hypocracy of it all. And that is what the Kid wants here, indoctrination. No thanks.

Witness · March 21, 2019

21 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"The lie does not kill with the mallet, but it runs through blood vessels like poison, slowly and cautiously, so it does not even notice how it works" - Ivan Cankar

I caught my breath when reading this one. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating to any JW that would pay attention to scriptures. The anointed are compared to stars. These stars – “angels” do not symbolize the elder body, as the WT teaches regarding Rev 1:20; 2:1; Rev 12:1; (Gal 4:24,26) Angels are messengers, the anointed are messengers. Mal 2:7; John 1:51; Matt 22:29,30; 1 Pet 3:22; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20, etc.

^“Do everything without grumbling or arguing, ¹⁵so that you may become blameless and pure, (Rev 14:3-5; 2 Cor 11:2; Heb 7:26); “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky (Matt 5:16)as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. Phil 2:14-16

These anointed “stars” can fall from their stable “heavenly” position.

“Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.” 2 Pet 3:17

During the last days, there are anointed ones “carried away by the error of the lawless”, who fall from God's grace.

“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.” Heb 12:15

In order to defile many, one must lead many, into iniquity.

Revelation 12:4 speaks of anointed who fall by swallowing deceptive teachings/water from a false prophet.

Wormwood is a bitter root.*

· *bitter gall; extreme wickedness, a bitter root, and so producing a bitter fruit. Matt 7:15-20

Wormwood represents fallen anointed leaders who produce spiritual bad “fruit” that defiles many. Rev 13:11,14 When one falls from God’s grace by breaking the covenant with God, he or she commits spiritual adultery.

“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— ¹¹the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.” Rev 8:10,11

Truly, Jehovah’s people do not hunger spiritually or thirst for truth. Neither does the scorching heat of God’s fiery judgments fall upon us. We know how good the spiritual provisions taste and how nourishing they are. Km 5/88 p. 5,6

There is nothing nourishing about falsehoods, no matter how they are dressed with ‘side dishes’; but as the quote says, lies poison slowly, cautiously, and I will add, deliberately. The cup that Wormwood offers, is brimming with lies. Micah 2:11; Eph 5:18; Rev 17:1-4 Accepting this Harlot’s cup induces numbness; and the distinction of what is a lie and what is truth is impossible to determine, unless one sincerely turns to God, and asks for His help. Jonah 2:1-9; Lam 3:19-25

TrueTomHarley · March 21, 2019

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Let’s get this nonsense back on track. Witness has a problem with the JW.org banner that some witnesses consider a flag.

Oh, who cares? We talked that stupid subject out ages ago. It has nothing to do with us anyhow, being way there on the other side of the world.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I just needed you to show your true color.

Man, judge much?! You are not easy to placate.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

since you make attempts to defend the essence of Elders and Governing body.

I don’t make attempts. I do it.

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

They don’t need defending when their roles are understood properly.

They’re not. That’s why I do it.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The rebuke was effective

There! See? Did you accomplish as much over several lifetimes with your scorched earth theocracy?

I even wanted to reproduce the nicest email I received from a couple baptized at the last Regional. The husband initially disapproved of his wife’s study, but turned around upon reading my blog and taking note that it was from a real person who doesn’t eat Bible sandwiches and has a sense of humor. I do get these from time to time. Unfortunately, there is something about Google software that I find infuriating...perhaps its continual attempts to take over one’s digital life, and so I fail to get the full mastery of it, offering resistance which I should know by now is futile. My email life is maddeningly complex, with everyone on earth spamming me over every stupid thing. I put that letter somewhere, perhaps under the auspices of Top Cat O’Malihan, and cannot readily find it.

The point of both is that you don’t have to hose down the field always with vinegar. Honey works sometimes. This is a yo-yo website. Everyone knows that.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

If I feel that my conscience is still clean, and there is no more reason to speak up anywhere about the things I have seen and heard, then I will happily remove myself completely

WHAT??!!! And leave me stranded here?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

there may also be a dark lesson to be learned in the idea that a person can feel very distraught by having a past persona wiped out, and his prior comments removed as if worthless. It is probably akin to the removal of a person who has been disfellowshipped for matters of conscience, leaving them with no way to return

Among the things have gained from JWI is improvement in understanding where some who oppose are coming from. I am very grateful to him for that.

JW Insider · March 21, 2019

16 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Would it imply then, since TTH and JWinsider use the same STYLE on language and grammar to be one and the same?

I'm convinced! Of course, it might be delirium. I'm suffering from such a fever you could fry eggs on my forehead. At least, I assume so based on the picture.

JW Insider · March 21, 2019

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Flash from the past! 1885, not from the Zion Tower.

True. We don't get a lot of Ellen G White around here. But I admit that I didn't get the point.

I recall that Rutherford thought he was able to figure out that the thing "standing where it ought not" was obviously the British Empire since they were still occupying Palestine well after the Gentiles' time was supposed to have ended, and they should therefore have no longer been dominating the land of Israel.

TrueTomHarley · March 22, 2019

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

12 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Let’s get this nonsense back on track. Witness has a problem with the JW.org banner that some witnesses consider a flag.

Oh, who cares? We talked that stupid subject out ages ago. It has nothing to do with us anyhow, being way there on the other side of the world.

Um..... the more I think about this, @BillyTheKid46....

Who’s associating with apostates, you or me?

Oh, yeah, Witness, who loathes the theocratic organization and regulary posts scurrilous items in hopes of pulling people away from it and will do so until the day she dies. Witness, who finds some devilish thing that she thinks can be twisted into stumbling loyal friends and drawing them her way. Witness, who monitors all the derogatory websites to throw out the most powerful anti-JW slander that she can find, and what is your reaction....even after the subject has been more than adequately covered?

Let’s forget that JWI has reassessed how he is going to interact here, and has said he will do a 180 in matters that may affect the brotherhood in ways he did not intend.

Nah, who cares? “Let’s go back to that dung that Witness brought up! Let’s return to the vomit and talk about that!!!!”

Who’s associating with apostates now?

Who’s being the hypocrite now?

Who is the pot that is calling the kettle black now?

Who ought to apply to himself all the verses that he has hurled at others now?

Did you notice my two lines, just after yours in the heading??

“Oh, who cares? We talked that stupid subject out ages ago.”

That’s how you handle the malignant thing should you decide to involve yourself!!

TrueTomHarley · March 22, 2019

25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I suggest you go back to your earlier rants and apply this nonsense now. You're not getting off that easy author

I nailed it, Billy. You know it. I know it.

TrueTomHarley · March 22, 2019

30 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would think you should have been able to find,

I will mention this before @JW Insiderdoes:

This is a self-help website that you have taken your drawing from. (Imagine him thinking it is eggs!—what on earth is wrong with him?) It is on the downside of overthinking, of not being able to mentally shut off.

Do you have that challenge, Billy, of not being able to turn off?

If so, you have plenty of very good company.

JW Insider · March 22, 2019

3 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I would think you should have been able to find,

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/how-to-get-rid-of-the-thoughts-that-are-clogging-your-brain

I guess I really have egg on my face now. Right?

At least I didn't interpret it as the result of Billy the Kid's six-shooter, and a quick draw with exceptional aim.

"STANDING WHERE IT DOES NOT BELONG"

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