Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

[TrueTomHarley]

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

“The average Clergy salary in the United States is $96,800 as of December 26, 2019, but the range typically falls between $79,600 and $109,800".

Wow-whee! Say, did you hear the one about the clergyman who started to sing the Beatles’ tune and got hung up on the first line?

You never give me your money

You never give me you mo-huh-huh-ney

You never give me you mo-huh-huh-huh-huh-huh-ney

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Requires a master's degree.

Acquired at Divinity schools generally by professors who don’t believe it.

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, and if they do have a masters degree, it's most likely not a degree in theology

If they do, it makes them even worse qualified...see above

[Anna]

Hey, if you are a Circuit Overseer and were classed as clergy  "You could get $12,359 more than the median pay of this job in Santa Barbara, CA . Because you have 10-14 years of experience in this job, you manage a team of 11 - 25, you report to CEO/Board of Directors, (the Governing Body) and your performance is Superior".

This translates to $88.668

If you do the same in Anchorage, Alaska, you get $91,462. I guess because it's cold there and nobody want's to do it....

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, here I target you JWI 😀. I don't think this can be compared to the same level that "clergy" in general are paid. Usually CO's and others in full time service have no means of income (regular job) therefor our contributions help them to carry out their tasks without having to do secular work.

Thanks. I deserved it. It's true that there is almost no comparison between elders and the payment factor with the clergy. I'm sure it's the main reason that this particular distinction is made so clearly in the article. We happen to have a "paid" elder in our own Kingdom Hall, but it's rare, and was supposed to be transitional, as this housing was designated for the circuit overseer who stays in a different hall.

But I can't see any reason to argue such a distinction for the COs and many Bethelites and Governing Body members who definitely are paid with housing and meals, along with a small cash allowance for other services and needs. And these payments are produced out of the collections of money that HQ receives from our contributions. What would likely happen if everyone stopped contributing food, housing, cash, monetary estates, liquid assets? The CO's, Bethelites, and Governing Body would no longer have housing and food, and because they are no longer being paid this way, most would no longer be able to perform the duties they now perform.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this in the least. Paul was a full-time minister who said that the 'bull should not be muzzled when threshing out the grain.' He had a right to expect payment for his ministry if he wished, just as others were doing.

[Anna]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

And these payments are produced out of the collections of money that HQ receives from our contributions. What would likely happen if everyone stopped contributing food, housing, cash, monetary estates, liquid assets? The CO's, Bethelites, and Governing Body would no longer have housing and food, and because they are no longer being paid, most would no longer be able to perform the duties they now perform.

Yes, I did actually understand what you were saying before, and why you were saying it, but I still don't think we can make comparisons in view of the general meaning of "salary".  As you said:

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's true that there is almost no comparison between elders and the payment factor with the clergy. I'm sure it's the main reason that this particular distinction is made so clearly in the article.

(bold mine)

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Elders are supposed to be equal ?  And there is no hierarchy  ?   

Um some man on here 'sower of the seed ' or something,  seems to think different. When he talks about the GB working their way up 'through the ranks'. 

Of course there are ranks and hierarchy. Ministerial Servant, Elder, Circuit Overseer, et al. Right up to the GB and their lawyers. 

And who is it does the judging in the congregations ?  The Elders judge, mark, report on people. If a member of the congregation did that it would be seen as 'causing a division in the congregation' or trouble making, or gossip. But the Elders are given that authority to judge, mark, report, and be involved in disfellowshipping people by giving evidence to the C.O. I think that shows that Elders have rank / position. 

If all were equal they would not use the term 'brother / sister', because they would be on first name terms within the congregation. I have a brother and a sister by blood relation, and i use their first names. Why not in a congregation. I really can't imagine the Apostles using last names. We have, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, ............. No last names there. 

Also, Elders write their own talks to give from the platform. True they may have a basic outline from the GB but the Elder has quite a free reign to write his talk. Now that Public Talk is given as said to the Public, so that Elder has a responsibility to give correct information in such a talk. So is that not very similar to church clergy ? 

@Anna, i think, mentioned the word church. The church is NOT the building, it is the congregation, specifically the Anointed, as it would have been in the Greek Scriptures. 

@Srecko Sostar mentioned Inside JW circle word "clergy" has bad connotation. Because, as word "Christendom" too, it is always about, those other people, those other churches, those other religions.

The GB down to the Elders have always tried to frighten congregants with some false idea  about everyone 'outside' the JW Org being wicked. As Srecko mentions 'clergy' 'Christendom' and others have been 'torn apart' 'dissected' and given bad reports on. 

So now the table has turned and it is the GB and the JW Org that are being dissected and inspected, and investigated, and given bad reports on. It would seem they are receiving back what they threw at others. 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

many Bethelites

In Croatia, Bethel workers have also pension and health insurance benefits. Obviously also paid from contributions. 

[the Sower of Seed]

On 1/15/2020 at 10:57 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Saul of Tarsus have some period about learning, but he didn't learned how to be apostle and member of Jerusalem GB

The 12 Apostles were trained by Jesus and spent time in the door to door ministry.It's not so much the training as it is the vetting, Judas lasted 3-1/2 years. The GB members may have individually spent 40,50,60 years in full time volunteer service while studying the Bible and supporting materials. 

Saul of Tarsus was well trained and excelled because he had a desire to serve and learn. As an example to every person outside of the Way, the Apostle Paul was shown he needed to subject himself to this Way. He needed to humble himself to the leadership of the Way then. Imagine that, the man that wrote 13 books of the Bible needed to humble himself to the older men of Jerusalem. Today there is not another organization on Earth closer to that Way than Jehovah's Witnesses.They are seen as the people who have preached the Good News of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited Earth and continue to let the world know a prophet is in their midst.Their Name Glorifies the Only True God Jehovah. See Exodus 3:15

They have God's view of war, of murder, of abortion, of headship, of voting, of trusting in men, of the use of blood, of immorality,etc......................................................

Jehovah has blessed them and continues to support and lead them through Christ's direction.

Anyone who has faith in an Almighty God, who inspired the compilation of 66 books and foretold 100's of future events that we recognize all came true. He explains why we are here, why conditions are as they are and what we have to look forward to, to hope in. If we trust Him with our lives and of those we lost in death, we surely must trust He can lead men who know Him, pray to Him, individually and in groups,men who have forsaken this world and it's desires.

They must have faith He can make the changes HE desires. It really doesn't matter how the 1st GB members were appointed. I have faith that they were vetted over decades.Jehovah's Witnesses are excelling where others are failing, the GB are doing a fine job before Jehovah, Christ and the congregations. No one else are their peers.

Everyone Trusting in Jehovah, does Just That! 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The 12 Apostles were trained by Jesus

Today's "apostles" were not trained by Jesus. Not in literal way and not in some other way. JW leaders claiming how they not receiving "inspirational training" from Jesus. Reading Bible and thinking/mediate about text and prayers are only "training" they have. Imagine this: If real apostles in 1st century failed in many things after/despite training by Jesus, how much more errors can be expected from people who today claiming how they are (only) "guided by holy spirit"? 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Saul of Tarsus was well trained and excelled because he had a desire to serve and learn.

Saul of Tarsus was highly educated person. Today GB tells (teach) JW members how God and Jesus not need "higher education". Can we assume how Saul was well trained and excellent because of THIS background? And how Jesus had easier task to learned him and not need 3,5 years, because he got more effective mind as highly educated person? Do you suggest how 11 apostles had less desire to serve and learn?

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

It really doesn't matter how the 1st GB members were appointed.

It is worrying to hear. In fact, enormously worrying!

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@the Sower of Seed  " They have God's view of war, of murder, of abortion, of headship, of voting, of trusting in men, of the use of blood, of immorality,etc.... "

The GB have no idea. 

1. The GB say that God and Christ trust them, so then the GB tell people to trust them.  Trusting the GB is 'trusting in men', when the bible says 'Put not your trust in earthling man'

2. How many more of you JWs will pretend that the GB and its Org have God's view of immorality ?

Look around this Earth. See the hurt and pain the JW Org has caused people through Child Sexual Abuse. Then look at all the court cases where your GB are using dishonest lawyers to tell lies in courts, just to save your GB money. JW Org has big businesses in the world earning millions of pounds / $, but they do not want  to pay compensation to Victims of CSA. The GB have even made rules of shunning to deliberately push people away from their families and friends. The misuse of scripture is horrid. 

The only 'seed' you are sowing is one of lies.  

I'll repeat this scripture :- Matthew 5 

38 “You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’a ³⁹  However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.b ⁴⁰  And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment;c ⁴¹  and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles. ⁴²  Give to the one asking you, and do not turn away from one who wants to borrow from you."

Direct instruction from Jesus to the Anointed. To give and not hold back.  Why are your GB doing exactly  the opposite to the instructions of Jesus Christ ? 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 1/15/2020 at 3:23 PM, Anna said:

Yes, I did actually understand what you were saying before, and why you were saying it, but I still don't think we can make comparisons in view of the general meaning of "salary".  As you said:

Victor Blackwell defended our brothers during WWII. He said if they were pioneers they might claim exemption from the military draft by reason of being a minister. This would almost always be denied by the local judge. Though their ministry might plainly be the most important thing in their lives, Blackwell writes that judges recognized only the type of ministers who:

1) “had a church” and

2) got paid.

He called this type “mercenary ministers.” It says a lot. The only model of a minister recognized was that of ones who had transformed Jesus model into a career path.

[the Sower of Seed]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The GB have no idea

They don't speak of themselves as much as you do. The Witnesses out in the door to door ministry or the public display of literature ministry this day have seen the scriptures pertaining to morality and the proper understanding of those verses written in the magazines, books and public talks given at Kingdom Halls and convention halls and at jw.org. They have taken this information to billions of people who have witnessed the teachings and wisdom in obeying God. The articles promote the family and sanctity of marriage. Child abuse and adultery occur when a selfish individual seeks to satisfy ungodly desires. What is the solution? Separate the unrepentant selfish from your midst while showing support in helping the victims keep their spiritual relationship with God. This is the primary goal, while we await God's intervention.

Without question Jehovah's Witnesses are doing the Expressed Will of God as written at Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10. Jesus taught those who would OBEY him to go door to door, street after street,city by city,country by country preaching and declaring "the Good News of God's Kingdom".

That Kingdom rule will have One Standard toward everyone on the Earth below: Is the person acting in a loving way toward God and neighbor. Then there will be no complainers, where did they go? Jehovah sent the Christ with the entire 144,000 and many angels to tear them from the Earth. See Proverbs 2:22 and Matthew 13:36-43. What will make the time after Armageddon so great? Jehovah will have read the heart of everyone, those not knowing Him or those ignoring Him and His desire for mankind will be separated from their families forever!

The ultimate in disfellowshipping will be accomplished by God, millions will object for a second or two, but is God doing the right thing? Is it right to separate everyone not obeying God's Standards from the Earth so that Unity and Peace and Security can be enjoyed by those remaining? 

Moses sister Miriam, complained about Moses' wife, what did Jehovah do? He separated her from the congregation for a week,why? Because He disliked her attitude toward the one He chose to lead His Nation. That time gave Miriam time to meditate on what she had done and that faith in God's direction was lacking in her.

After that, the Law Given by God separated wrong doers from their families, it was an arrangement of God.

We live during a time of rebellion, Jehovah gave this time to show that neither Satan or Man can produce happiness for everyone as He had done for eons before a liar arose. The angels in Heaven needed to see the dreadful conditions that result when life that has consciousness of God and His principles, ignore those. In their wisdom, they permanently disfellowshipped the angels complaining about the Christ and his rule in heaven and earth. Next, the same will occur on Earth."Let Your Kingdom Come"

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

9 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

We live during a time of rebellion,

Yes. And always always always the point of attack for rebels will be the divine/human interface. It was true with Miriam as you pointed out. It was true with the early Christian congregation. It was even true regarding Judas. He and God were tight—they were no problems there! But that fellow who claimed to be the messiah was not at all what Judas had been expecting. Judas has scoped it out for 3 years and concluded that he did not fit the bill at all.