Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Some carry hammers all the time when it comes to JWs.......... logical reasoning disperses and the hammer becomes the focus.

“But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.” Matthew 18:6

I am quite certain due to my exhaustive research that in the secret files of the WNMF.org there is an unrun help-wanted ad—and I could prove the existence of if the The Librarian would release her files (what does the old hen have to hide?)—that reads:

”Help Wanted: Corrections officer to fasten the millstone upon stumbler-criminals. Apply WNMF, M-F, 8-5, send portfolio of posts contributed to this forum.”

Furthermore, I have knowledge that Mr Admin and the Librarian actually ran the ad briefly, and it drew enough replies to crash their system.

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

He was giving an example.... so what are u getting åt? 

 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

seem to realise any seriousness in any thing I write

I definitively like to learn and listen but when contributors overreact constantly on every subject then a teaching moment has passed. 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

definitely see a lack of love and  fellow feeling on this forum. 

Ditto.  

 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

To think that your 'guidance' comes via the Watchtower which is not inspired of God and which is written by ordinary men who also have wrong desires it seems, having read lots of things on here which seem to go on at Bethel. And that your GB are more interested in their own position and the 'money in their bank accounts', than they are in people who have been wronged by your Org. But JWs still serve the Org blindly. Still putting their money in, and still trying to encourage others to be part of it

Accusations, accusations..... rather  read the bible. It will serve you better.  You are not going to learn anything healthy for your soul on this forum. This is a forum to stumble everyone  who may read all its accusations and some of the slander.  If you think this advice from me is hard-hearted..... please re-evaluate (I mean it sincerely). This is a pretty nasty place - satan's ideas being promoted openly by those who hate jehovah and JWs.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are your GB / Writing Department / management / elders, really qualified to guide you?'  Well the scriptures say 'By their works you will know them'.  And it's a poor show right now. 

When last have you been to one of our meetings or read our magazines? Evaluate it for yourself - do not just judge.  Do not judge on what you read here! This is not a healthy place! 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 1/12/2020 at 2:29 AM, JW Insider said:

You should speak with some of the Watchtower attorneys. I don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

Well at least the plaintiff could be miserable in luxury  ..  But I agree with you that millions of $$$ in payouts are too high. So who is it that decides on the amount ? Because as you seem to be saying, it disputes the genuineness of the claim.  But is there ever an apology on behalf of the Watchtower / JW Org ? 

One other point of course is, would a qualified lawyer be prepared to fight a case for a Victim if there was no financial reward for the lawyer. Lawyers are part of the devil's world, and money seems to be what drives them. You cannot expect an experienced lawyer to work for no pay. And it needs very experienced lawyers to fight the GB and their lawyers, because the GB's lawyers play dirty.  

Also, you cannot expect the devil's world to work toward preventing child sexual abuse can you ?  Its kinda funny how @Arauna follows 'world conditions' and uses them as signs of the times, whereas you seem to be expecting signs of improvement to worldly moral standards. But you know things will get worse not better. This is why JW Org should be compared to God's high standards, not compared to the devil's world. It would be too easy to say JW Org is better than the devil's world, but it would prove nothing. 

========================================================

New comment. 

@the Sower of Seed  Said :  A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

  4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

@Arauna   said : He was giving an example.... so what are u getting åt? 

Members of the Governing Body, it seems, were Homosexual.  It also seems, if information is correct, that a member of Bethel was sexually assaulted by such a one.  There have been other reports on here, of immoral behavior at Bethel.

Those GB members would have contributed to Watchtower articles. Also it gives reason to believe that the Writing department personnel might not be exactly worthy of producing information on God;s behalf.  With 'pillowgate' and other examples it does not look good for the GB / Org / Bethel in USA. 

Unfortunately i don't keep all the info i read on this forum, and those that have given info' might not wish to confirm the info they originally gave, so I only have the remnants of the knowledge in my head.  But the information I have read on here was obviously given voluntarily by those that had worked / possibly do work at Bethel, so there is no reason for me to disbelieve it.  

[Anna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

Money makes all sorts of pain magically go away, didn't you know that? 

Interestingly, in the Montana case (and I only know this because as I said, I read the court transcript, over 400 pages of it, in order to get a clear and unbiased view) one of the victims (the other sibling who also reported the abuse) did not want to become a part of the lawsuit. He said in his deposition that he just wants to get on with his life. In other words, he was not interested in money to "repair his trauma". This victim was the only one who is still in the truth. So it appears he was more interested in remaining one of Jehovah's Witnesses than in money. Now I am sure there will be malcontents (as you call them) who will claim that he must have been brainwashed into being loyal to the organization. All speculation of course. But the more realistic approach is; maybe he just liked being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and therefor why would he want to claim damages from a community that he likes being a part of, especially when he knew they were not responsible for what his stepdad did to him. He knew his step dad was going to be prosecuted, and that was enough justice for him. Obviously, he felt that his spirituality helped him in overcoming his trauma. But if one doesn't have that kind of faith, then money is the next best thing.

32 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Members of the Governing Body, it seems, were Homosexual.  It also seems, if information is correct, that a member of Bethel was sexually assaulted by such a one.  There have been other reports on here, of immoral behavior at Bethel.

Don't forget, this was never condoned. Anything can happen if done in secret.

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Lawyers are part of the devil's world, and money seems to be what drives them. 

Not all lawyers.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

You cannot expect an experienced lawyer to work for no pay.

I know some who do it all the time.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And it needs very experienced lawyers to fight the GB and their lawyers, because the GB's lawyers play dirty.  

They only “play dirty” in your eyes because they beat your side.

14 minutes ago, Anna said:

 why would he want to claim damages from a community that he likes being a part of, especially when he knew they were not responsible for what his stepdad did to him. He knew his step dad was going to be prosecuted, and that was enough justice for him.

Exactly. Look, if someone offered me $20 million (or bought enough of my books to total that amount—hint, hint) I would take it in a heartbeat if there were no strings attached. But the “strings attached” in this instance is kicking the organization in the teeth which is likely more proactive than anyone in actually preventing child sexual abuse.

[Anna]

15 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

When a person is a alcoholic or drug addict, what is the common goal of rehab?

To help the person gain a relationship with God! With Hope that a higher responsibility toward God will help the person refrain from wrong doing.

Yes, agree. Also, one has to avoid situations that could re-ignite this addiction. With drugs, one has to completely cut ties with the drug based community. With alcohol, one must completely avoid it, even just one drink. However, with the "addiction" of molesting children, in other words pedophilia, there is a problem. One cannot avoid being around children entirely. So what has happened is pedophiles have been in a position where re-offending was made possible. And that has been the problem all along.

[TrueTomHarley]

27 minutes ago, Anna said:

But if one doesn't have that kind of faith, then money is the next best thing.

In fact, I appended your remarks to my original post. (on my blog, not here.)

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @TrueTomHarley  " But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.” Matthew 18:6 "

Quote @Anna " But if one doesn't have that kind of faith, then money is the next best thing. "

There you are Anna, the answer to why those ones lost their faith. They were stumbled by Paedophiles, then stumbled by their Elders not acting properly to sort it out.  AND WHAT FOLLOWED  WAS  :-

Quote @Anna

 So what has happened is pedophiles have been in positions where re-offending was made possible. And that has been the problem all along. 

You and Tom have proven the point for me, Thank you. 

But Anna, why were those paedophiles allowed to be ' in positions where re-offending was made possible.'  ? That seems to be the whole point of the court cases. To establish, who new the facts, and who allowed the paedophiles to have those positions where re-offending was made possible.' 

•  

[Witness]

21 hours ago, Witness said:

Your organization projects God, Jesus and Holy Spirit, as powerless - needing lawyers to fight their battles in Satan's world, when love for one's neighbor begins at home - the organization itself.  

These are two thoughts, not well connected.   

Anointed ones were initially drawn together BEFORE the organization was established.  It was under this premise, that they gathered:

"Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.) 

"In view of these facts and also of the nature of the harvest work, and the addition. In fact that each one so gathered is expected to enter into the harvest work as a reaper, and will do so to the extent of his ability and opportunity, it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and, it done, would seem to indicate on the part of the Church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12.) ... While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord's plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word, and so help one another, and not forget the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is; and so much the more as they see the day approaching. -- Mal. 3: 16; Heb. 10:25." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384.)

"There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind. There is no organization doing this today; though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so; and many more would like to do so. This was the fatal mistake into which the Church began to fall in the second century; and the effort to realize this false conception culminated in the boastful, imperious counterfeiting of the coming Kingdom in Papacy, which for centuries sought to dominate the world, by claimed "divine authority". This idea more or less pervaded and poisoned the ideas of all the Protestant "clergy" as well; who copying Papacy's false ideas of the Church, claim also that the Church of Christ is now organized, though they now make less boastful claims to "divine authority" to teach and rule mankind in general, that the Papacy does." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1893, page 266.)

From, http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/russells-opinion-on-organizations.html 

All of this truth, has dissolved over time; and the organization today at its peak of corruption, shows evidence of its peak as a lie, against God’s anointed, spiritual “organization” under Christ.  Rev 13: 1,2,5-9; 16:13-15

As time has gone by, this priesthood of God has been consumed by a tally of millions who have joined what is now, a necessary “evil”.  There is nothing wrong with people gathered with anointed ones. It is happening on the other side of the WT fence, never to be organized by man’s will.  What is wrong with WT, is the GB’s dismissal of God’s priests gradually, over the spanning years of the organization's development.

Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions.   Wt 02/8/1

 This necessary evil requires a priesthood of its own, where its priests answer to their “High Priest”, the GB.  False christs.  Matt 24:24 Thus, they have "ordained" a priesthood for their own.   True anointed have written on their hearts, the laws of God through the outpouring of Holy Spirit. Heb 8:10 God wouldn’t do this if He didn’t expect His servants to teach the people, as priests have always been admonished to do.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9 

 Except for a minority of elders who truly try to “love your neighbor as yourself”, the majority of elders are “heartless” to this guidance Jesus has taught us. Isa 3:12; Ezek 34; Rev 9:9,10; Joel 2:2-9  Those elders who make the effort to obey Christ’s law of love, in most cases leave, or just give up and answer to "lawlessness".

So, the elder body can play the role of a clergy class at its whim in the court systems, when it is advantageous for the organization. Other times, it uses the excuse that all men are imperfect and make mistakes.  As I have said, if the organization belonged to God, only His authentic priests would lead as shepherds.  What would guide them in all cases, would be the "written letter" fulfilled in Christ, and inscribed on their hearts.  2 Cor 3:3

All the excuses made in defense of the organization’s need to fight for its rights in court, mean nothing to God or Christ. It is no different than what other organizations in the world of Satan face.  If Christ said, "my kingdom is not part of this world", (John 18:36)  a JW should ask, why do men make it so?   God's priesthood/Temple has been rejected and trampled, for the sustaining benefit of an idol  (1 Cor 3:16,17)  Matt 24:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Ezek 44:6-9

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²² On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ ²³ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23

What has developed over time since its inception, is a devouring monster.  Rev 13:1,2,10,11,12,15

[Anna]

55 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But Anna, why were those paedophiles allowed to be ' in positions where re-offending was made possible.'  ? That seems to be the whole point of the court cases. To establish, who new the facts, and who allowed the paedophiles to have those positions where re-offending was made possible.' 

Actually, I was not talking about "positions" as in "positions of responsibility" (i.e. elder or something like that) I was talking about positions as in being able to be physically in the vicinity of children. That is why I said this was an impossibility to avoid, unless one was physically removed from society all together, (or unless children were physically removed from the vicinity of the perpetrator).

One website says this: "In most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. However, the child will remain under the supervision of child welfare services until the parents can assure caseworkers that they will provide a safe environment" .

Facts are not easy to come by. Obviously someone who has molested a child will try to make sure of that!

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

When you go to the police to report you must have something more than just a gut feeling.

I think the new mantra (at least in the USA) now is "Trust your gut. If you suspect a child may be in danger, call 911 or call your State Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting Numbers".

A website also says:

"Whether out of fear of getting sued by the abuser for making false accusations, or a sense of not wanting to “get involved,” child abuse often goes undetected or unreported by those closest to it.

"Don’t worry about being sued for reporting child abuse. State programs receiving federal funds are required to provide immunity to people who make good-faith reports of child abuse or neglect".

"Persons who report suspected child abuse in good faith are generally* immune from liability, and their identity is protected from the abuser". https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/child-abuse-victims.html

* not sure what circumstance would constitute an exemption to this, but just because a lawsuit was filed against the Mormon church for breaking confidentiality, it doesn't mean the plaintiff will win. Most likely the court will find the Mormon church acted that way for the safety of the child, and the suit will be thrown out of court. I think these matters to do with children are in a class of their own, as opposed to the rape or assault of an adult, the uniqueness being that a child cannot give consent, and it is the right of the child to expect to be protected, because it cannot protect itself. A website I posted a link to in my earlier post, and JWI drew attention to it, has this to say about Clergy confidentiality: "However, there may be times when it is appropriate to share confidential information, under extreme circumstances where people may be killed or severely injured. There are only nine cases in the history of this country (USA) where a minister was sued for breaching the duty of confidentiality. Of those, only three of the cases found the minister civilly liable for sharing confidences. In the other six cases, the courts concluded there was no duty under the circumstances for the minister to keep the confidentiality. So it can be concluded that ministers who decide to share confidential information should not in most cases be held personally liable from a legal standpoint, but they certainly won’t be held legally liable for not sharing. The exception to this rule is child abuse. In 41 states clergy are mandatory reporters of suspected or known child abuse". https://www.agfinancial.org/blog/bid103391church-liability-clergy-privilege-confidentiality-and-reporting/

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Anna  unless one was physically removed from society all together, 

Then so it should be.... JW or otherwise.... But as i tried to say to Tom, its the devil's world so they will be allowed to carry on with their disgusting ways. 

Quote "In most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. '     

Child welfare services have hard decisions both ways, but cost would be a big problem and places to re-home children. And those working in 'Child welfare' are still part of that 'wicked world' that JWs warn everyone about. So who can be trusted ? The whole world is in such a mess.

JWs say that anything outside of JW Org, is part of the 'wicked world'. But then we can see that a lot of things 'inside JW Org' are wicked things too.  Not one human can be trusted. Its obvious why the scripture says 'Put not your trust in earthling man'. 

King James Bible Psalm 146 v 3 
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.