Information Control: JWs form a barricade at JW Melbourne protest to keep rank and file JW's from seeing "apostate" signs

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

There is a VERY simple way to find out the REAL answers to all your suppositions and questions, TTH ..... and that is you personally actually DO write the Collective Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as I have outlined ... and in about three months solid, hard facts will be available for you to make a rational argument for defending the indefensible, with cutesey, meaningless dialog.

Be a sport ... get the forms from the Post Office for certified mail, and return receipt (the cardboard green card), write a check, compose your letter, copy this thread in its entirety, and fire that torpedo into the dark, and see what lights up!

Then you will have a FACTUAL basis for what is the actual reality of the situation.

.... and as a side thought ... your cutesy suppositions are not THAT cute.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Jude did not write about whistleblowers. Jude WAS the whistleblower!

So am I.

So are you.

So is JTR

So is everyone here.

The point is that “whistleblower” is in the eye of the beholder. No villain ever says: “I am the villain.” Always they are victims, unappreciated reformers, or “whistleblowers.”

Jude says they, “indulge in dreams, defile flesh, despise discipline, speak abusively of glorious ones.” (vs 8 ) Do you think that they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not attribute their departure to finally having opened their eyes?

Jude says they were “rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.” (12-13) 

Do you think they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not have complained about “ad hominem” attacks and how their real, legitimate concerns were being ignored—just like malcontents do here?

Yes, I know that Jude was the real whistleblower. I was playing devil’s advocate.

And I hope that I do not get another disappointed chastisement from Witness as to how sad she finds it that I am now advocating for the devil.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and as a side thought ... your cutesy suppositions are not THAT cute.

They are. I understated their cuteness. ‘Cute,’ too, is in the eye of the beholder, and in many respects, you are blind as a bat.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Does anyone have solid proof of homosexual behavior by these people mentioned? I noticed years ago, the Librarian commented on this subject.

 

Dear Reader,

 

https://www.jw-archive.org/post/84800326628/why-were-leo-greenlees-and-ewart-chitty-forced-to

 

Brother Ewart Chitty resigned in 1979. The reason was never stated officially. There were only ALLEGATIONS of homosexuality that some still refer to. 

 

Brother Leo Greenlees resigned in 1984. Again, no official reason offered. The “gossip” ever since around the internet and elsewhere is that it was due to pedophilic practices. No actual reason was ever officially offered.

 

The reason for such allegations against them is that some point to the article in January 1, 1986 WT article (p. 13), which commented: “Shocking as it is, some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to homosexuality and child molesting.”

 

I don’t believe our main article on the Governing Body touched on these points because it is all based on speculation and conjecture."

 

It appears some wife swapping was omitted.

 

*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***

 

 

¹² Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!

 

 

It should be noted, the article above was NOT specifically speaking about the GB individuals mentioned, but the nearly 37,000 individuals that were disfellowshipped for whatever reason such as immoral behavior.

 

Therefore, it is as the Librarian mentioned, just speculation and conjecture if proof is not provided to such allegations.

 

1975-Ewart C. Chitty of London, England, who is secretary-treasurer of the International Bible Students Association. Leo K. Greenlees was already a GB member when Chitty was appointed to the body.

 

Simply relying on an “anonymous” blogger that presented no evidence but rather compiled ex-witness information (speculation) from apostate sites is not evidence.

 

Yes but everything was kept 'in house' back then. And still is probably. 

The American courts / authorities can't even get their hands on the 20 + year Child Sexual Abuse database which should have been handed over years ago. So who knows what's hidden in there. 

There are probably documents hidden away that go back 70 + years. Didn't Australia have info from 50 years ago that the ARC used ? I would think USA info would go back further. 

It would be wonderful to see the whole Watchtower / JW Org / GB opened up wide to the public, in the public interest. Then, and only then, could people make a sensible judgement as to if they want to be part of that Org. 

You may think I want the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' to crash, but in truth I don't. I just want it made clean. As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. BUT Genuine people will be trying to find TRUTH within the muck, that's all. 

And @TrueTomHarley also said "She knows there is a downside. She knows it is a price well worth paying in view of the upside... "

To quote John Butler, (as Mr Harley is convinced that is who I am), Collateral Damage then.

The victims of Child Sexual Abuse, the victims of wrongful disfellowshipping, the victims of wrongful shunning. 

The Lies told by the Writing dept and the GB. The false teachings. The false predictions. 

One could also include the unnecessary deaths of people dying through lack of blood, but that one is still debatable as the true meaning of the scriptures on that are not exactly known. Hence the GB keep moving the goal posts. And i will believe Matthew 12 v 9 -12. where Jesus talks about saving lives. 

@Arauna only' knows it is a price well worth paying' because she isn't actually paying that price. 

[JW Insider]

45 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do you think they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not have complained about “ad hominem” attacks and how their real, legitimate concerns were being ignored—just like malcontents do here?

Perhaps you are reading something into the book of Jude that I haven't been able to see. To me, the reason for the letter was this:

Jude 4

I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.

This was similar to the problem in Corinth, where certain brothers were PROUD that they could put up with a notorious case of incest, due to a misunderstanding and misuse of "undeserved kindness."

(1 Corinthians 5:1, 2) . . .Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst?

Such persons who used the idea of forgiveness, mercy, and undeserved kindness (grace), as an excuse for loose/brazen conduct were not blowing the whistle on wrongdoing, but were PROMOTING wrongdoing. It was the same as dismissing and speaking abusively against things that Jesus himself had said to "prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." Michael wouldn't even speak abusively of the Devil and yet these people are going to go further than that and think it's OK to speak abusively of Jesus and the angels?

It's also possible that the leaders (elders) are considered the "glorious ones" but this makes less sense to me. Perhaps a topic for further discussion?

[TrueTomHarley]

31 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. 

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.

If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 

I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”

Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”

Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

45 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.

If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 

I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”

Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”

Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them .

Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Be a sport ... get the forms from the Post Office for certified mail, and return receipt (the cardboard green card), write a check, compose your letter, copy this thread in its entirety, and fire that torpedo into the dark, and see what lights up!

I have a better idea, big boy.

You write a letter—that way I do not have to—and ask about the specific reasons that Tim Cook was made part of the Governing Body. Specify that you want details.. Do not settle for “he was a pioneer for so many years, then a missionary, then a Bethel servant.”  No.

Ask about specific praiseworthy deeds, abilities, or accomplishments that made the others think: “We have to get this guy on the GB!” 

How bout it, sport? Write that letter. Make it certified. Send a copy to the BOE. Send a copy here, even, so that we can all see the answer. Hold their feet to the fire!

My guess is that you will not get anything more than the generic, and you may not get even that. Instead, you may get references to verse like 2 Corinthians 10:12

 For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding.

or there might even be counsel not to fall into the pattern of “admiring personalities.” (Jude 16)

When you get this reply, fire off another letter to them about how as MEN of HONOR, they owe it to you to SPILL when you say SPILL. Remind them of their scriptural obligation to TRUTHFULLY answer anyone who asks a question. Tell them that since you are asking them about good things, and not bad things, there is NO REASON for them not to oblige you. 

The reason that they still will not satisfy you is that they are not into honoring persons. It is very hard to get the laudable specifics about any individual. They view humans, even themselves, as placeholders used by God, and when this or that is accomplished, credit goes to Jehovah, not the GB character or helper or branch servant who dreamed it up or got the job done.

You have only to watch Sam Herd giving the Gilead talk in the most recent broadcast, shaking his jowls like Nixon, parodying those slobbering over the “Govnin Body” —a skit that I am still trying to get down pat for imitation—before he says it’s not any of them doing anything—you could do the same were you in their place—but it is Jehovah who should get all credit.

They are not into zeroing in on the accomplishments of humans. Humans are placeholders. The good things they do are attributed to Jehovah, the bad things to human imperfection. I doubt you will get specifics for either. 

Be a sport, JTR. Give it a go. Save me a stamp.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

....

 

TTH:

So that is your better idea, eh?

Again you miss the point of trying to solve a problem with a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Furthermore, it is painfully transparent and obvious that you do this to avoid having brought to the light of day facts that are painful for you to admit, that would be exposed by following my suggestion.

I already know the answers that you will get from my suggestion.

You do too.

We are BOTH ashamed of what we will learn as part of this exercise that would cost about $50 ... NOT the cost of a single stamp, and would require  a full day to do it right.

I have already done what I suggested several times in the past, with other issues,  and as I sent my little "torpedos" out into the dark, what lit up on the horizon was not what I wanted to see, either.

.... but it was IMPORTANT information.

Information based on TRUTH ... not rumors, innuendo, legends, wishful thinking, and second, third, and fourth hand accounts from unknown or unverified sources.

The question at hand was trying to get honest answers about a HIGHLY controversial aspect of our history, and the people involved, straight "from the horses mouth", INSTEAD of hearsay, which facts you consider heresy.

Your suggestion would be a meaningless exercise, just as your attempt at diversion from an obvious outcome being documented in truth and honesty is a meaningless exercise, merely a  political obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation, as we have seen recently in the News.

 

 

.... merely a fantasy construct in an attempt attempt to wound reality.

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your suggestion would be a meaningless exercise,

My suggestion would put your stupid contention to bed once and for all.

They are unlikely to report the bad personal details that you hope. They are unlikely to release the good personal details that you should ask for in order to ascertain that it is not about personal details with them—good or bad.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Ignoring reality.

A Nation, even ours, that does not learn from its history, is doomed to repeat it.

We cannot learn from our history, if we do not know it accurately, and in detail.

Covering it up, or it being a taboo subject .... is why all civilizations, even ours, fail.

[Anna]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

before he says it’s not any of them doing anything—you could do the same were you in their place—but it is Jehovah who should get all credit.

I haven't watched it yet. Did he really say that, because that's what I've always said. Some people didn't like that though, unfortunately proving that they were kind of "worshipful" of the GB, and believed the GB were ultra special and more than anyoe else. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

1 minute ago, Anna said:

haven't watched it yet. Did he really say that, because that's what I've always said. Some people didn't like that though, unfortunately proving that they were kind of "worshipful" of the GB, and believed the GB were ultra special and more than anyoe else. 

One of three questions they asked me at my Reinstatement was (paraphrased) "What is your opinion of the Governing Body?"

I replied  (paraphrased) " I would have to agree with them in the February 2017 Watchtower, that they are neither inspired of God, or infallible.".

I believe that if I had phrased that differently, all other things being equal, I would NOT have been Reinstated.

By actual test, I would agree with you, Anna.