SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[Arauna]

On 12/19/2020 at 7:00 AM, JW Insider said:

But this is the first time I've gotten into the lunar ecliipse documents.

Just remember that lunar eclipses will show up in different months. Babylon used sun years. Juda used 2 calendars. The calendar for spiritual / holy events and the planting calendar.

[AlanF]

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

You deliberately remain obtuse.

You need to look in your mirror. And try to convince your pathologically lying compatriot ScholarJW to change his ways.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

The insight book  uses the date of cyrus's death 530BCE   because this date  is set in stone.  This is the most accurate, reliable, quick and accurate way to get to 539 BCE.

Your pathologically lying, moronic compatriot ScholarJW disagrees. Naturally, he's far too dishonest to explain what he actually believes -- something vaguely connected with Darius the Mede, apparently -- but he certainly disagrees with the Insight book's dating of Cyrus' reign. You don't believe me? Read his posts above.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

True. Jerusalem was desolate....... and jehovah did not allow other nations to move in and take it over.  It remained desolate.  A miracle! 

Nope. Scholars are nearly unanimous that most of Israel was inhabited by the poorest of the poor during that time. After all, Nebuchadnezzar wanted ALL of his conquered territories to be productive for Babylon's benefit, agriculturally and otherwise.

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

So when these scholars  do not accept the bible as the word of God and do not  accept these sterling examples of Jehovahs power, then it is reasonable to accept that they  would accept any old scholarly paper ( no matter how badly it clashes with the events of the bible) .... just because it clashes with the bible. Their motives are clear.

Uh huh. Yet you and your Watchtower Mommy still cannot explain how some 3 million Israelites wandering around Sinai for 40 years could leave not a trace -- not even buried poop.

[AlanF]

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Just remember that lunar eclipses will show up in different months. Babylon used sun years. Juda used 2 calendars. The calendar for spiritual / holy events and the planting calendar.

Let me get this straight: YOU, an uneducated, verified Watchtower drone and conspiracy theorist, presume to lecture someone about such things? LOL!

[Arauna]

44 minutes ago, AlanF said:

with Darius the Mede, apparently -

He is correct. Darius the Mede was installed as Satrap. Later Cyrus came back to be crowned as "king of the four corners of the earth (king of kings) and declared repatriation. This was prophesied by the two horned Persian beast conquering Babylon. (Persia and Media). 

47 minutes ago, AlanF said:

YOU, an uneducated, verified Watchtower drone and conspiracy theorist, presume to lecture

Time will tell. I have seen your reasonings on evolution - and frankly was not impressed. I think YOU are the drone and call anything you do not know of - a conspiracy.  I recheck my knowledge - always rechecking.  You have fallen  for the evolution conspiracy which turns people against the true God...... AND the false information many scholars are now being "paid" for and "compromised" for by BIG money. Scientists now go where the money is...... not where honesty and truth leads them to. The era of decent science is over.  Science now is applied to control people. Willing scientists are helping the wicked. 

[Ann O'Maly]

15 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I recheck my knowledge - always rechecking.

Yet you missed that the Babylonians' calendar was lunar-based.

And a lunar eclipse can only occur once in a lunar month. That's why lunar eclipses tend to show up in different months. 😆

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I recheck my knowledge - always rechecking.

This is good. This is the only right way to do it. From the time I started this thread, I have already discovered that I had still been carrying several ideas around that were wrong. I found some typos that I corrected, but I also discovered that I had made a couple of untrue assumptions. There might still be some more of those in things I've said. I misread and mistrusted the intent of an author (that Cesar Chavez posted) even though I never really had a reason to mistrust that author before. I re-read the author and realize now it was my fault for misunderstanding him.

This is why I'm glad to have  my views corrected -- no matter whether the person correcting me knows the WTS reasoning better than I do, and no matter what their own motives are concerning the WTS. 

And I'm still not absolutely sure about a couple of things, such as when the Babylonians made might have made exceptions to their intercalary months in the early years -- when a king might have had the say as to when the extra month would be added.

To keep their lunar calendar aligned with the solar seasons, the Jews also added an extra month to the end of the year (Adar/Addaru) when necessary -- every two or three years. To keep their lunar calendar aligned with the solar seasons, the Babylonians added an extra month, not just to the end of the year when necessary, but sometimes to the middle of the year -- an extra Ululu. The rule was apparently based on when they had started measuring the 19-year cycles. (Every 235 new moons, was almost exactly the same as 19 solar years.) The extra months began to fit a pattern where the 17th year out of the 19 added the extra month after the 6th, not after the 12th. There is enough data on the tablets to know this pattern after say 400 BCE, but for how long before 400 BCE I don't know.

	Babylonian	Jewish	Persian	Julian calendar
I	Nisannu	Nisan	Adukanaiša	March/April	Harvest onions
II	Ajaru	Iyyar	Thûravâhara	April/May	Harvest; sowing sesame
III	Simanu	Sivan	Thâigaciš	May/June	Harvest flax and lentils
IV	Du'ûzu	Tammuz	Garmapada	June/July	Harvest chickpeas
V	Âbu	Ab	Turnabaziš	July/August	Planting millet
VI	Ulûlu	Elul	Karbašiyaš	August/September	Sowing chickpeas
VII	Tašrîtu	Tishri	Bâgayâdiš	September/October	Harvest sesame
VIII	Arahsamna	Marheshvan	Markâsanaš	October/November	Sowing broad beans and flax
IX	Kislîmu	Kislev	Âçiyâdiya	November/December
X	Tebêtu	Tebeth	Anâmaka	December/January	Sowing onions
XI	Šabatu	Shebat	Samiyamaš	January/February	Sowing
XII	Addaru	Adar	Viyaxana	February/March	Harvest broad beans

[AlanF]

With reference to ScholarJW's complete buggering of the evidence leading to the Watchtower's acceptance of 538 BCE as the date of Cyrus' 1st year, Arauna said:

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Arauna: The insight book  uses the date of cyrus's death 530BCE   because this date  is set in stone.  This is the most accurate, reliable, quick and accurate way to get to 539 BCE.

AlanF: Your pathologically lying, moronic compatriot ScholarJW disagrees. Naturally, he's far too dishonest to explain what he actually believes -- something vaguely connected with Darius the Mede, apparently -- but he certainly disagrees with the Insight book's dating of Cyrus' reign. You don't believe me? Read his posts above.

Arauna quoting AlanF: with Darius the Mede, apparently -

Arauna: He is correct. Darius the Mede was installed as Satrap.

 

This is a well known, reasonable speculation not proven by any clear evidence. Do you need references in Watchtower publications?

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Later Cyrus came back to be crowned as "king of the four corners of the earth (king of kings)

"Later"? Nonsense. According to contemporary business tablets, Cyrus was viewed as having acceded the throne as early as October 10, 539 BCE in Sippar, a city near Babylon that Cyrus took just two days before conquering Babylon. See Parker and Dubberstein, page 14.

On page 14, P&D lists six tablets as evidence for the beginning of Cyrus' accession year. Therefore, irrespective of whether or when Darius the Mede was installed as a satrap over Babylon, Cyrus was still viewed as having been installed as king on Nisan 1, 538 BCE, according to hundreds of business tablets and other contemporary records.

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and declared repatriation.

And as I have carefully explained -- and you and your idiot compatriot have ignored -- this was almost certainly done on or about Nisan 1, 538 BCE in connection with the Akitu Festival and Cyrus' inauguration.

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This was prophesied by the two horned Persian beast conquering Babylon. (Persia and Media).

Irrelevant to the chronology.

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  2 hours ago, AlanF said:
YOU, an uneducated, verified Watchtower drone and conspiracy theorist, presume to lecture

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Time will tell.

Where have I heard that before?

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I have seen your reasonings on evolution - and frankly was not impressed.

Of course. You're impressed only by Watchtower publications and conspiracy theories.

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I think YOU are the drone and call anything you do not know of - a conspiracy.

Nonsense. Virtually all intelligent people not part of the conspiracy theory community can see such nonsense for what it is. No different in principle from Flat-Earthism, Young-Earth Creationism, etc.

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I recheck my knowledge - always rechecking.

So what? You obviously recheck using bogus sources.

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You have fallen  for the evolution conspiracy which turns people against the true God......

I guess the entire world of solid science has also fallen.

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AND the false information many scholars are now being "paid" for and "compromised" for by BIG money.

A standard trope of conspiracy theories.

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Scientists now go where the money is...... not where honesty and truth leads them to.

Slander will get you everywhere with your fellow conspiracy theorists.

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The era of decent science is over.  Science now is applied to control people. Willing scientists are helping the wicked. 

LOL!

Tell me again now:

How did 3 million Israelites wander the Sinai wilderness for 40 years without leaving even bits of poop as evidence?

How can the Bible's "God of love" have created a world of incredible pain and suffering in the animal world lasting more than half a billion years? Doesn't 'creation' itself tell you that this "God" does not exist?

[Arauna]

7 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

but it can be positively established that there is no proof for the presumed correspondence between the calendars.

Well said. This is what I was saying above. That is why I stick to a date which can be proven beyond reasonable doubt:  530 BCE. Death of Cyrus.

[Arauna]

15 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Cyrus was viewed as having acceded the throne as early

This had nothing to do with business but with a powerful and superstitious religious system which always trumped business.

17 minutes ago, AlanF said:

this was almost certainly done on or about Nisan 1, 538 BCE in connection with the Akitu Festival and Cyrus' inauguration.

I have said the same (and was the first to say so).

19 minutes ago, AlanF said:

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Time will tell.

Where have I heard that before?

I remember the "group-think " of nazi Germany. Like a herd of sheep they went along with the current ideology. Too afraid to be different. You remind me of that ..... you have the groupthink found at universities

22 minutes ago, AlanF said:

guess the entire world of solid science has also fallen

Yes- if DNA no longer determines gender..... but how you are indoctrinated..... then science is no longer sound. When doctors perform tons of gender transitions without giving the "young children"  a chance to make sure and take them away from their parents - then it is 'warped ' science and merely a desire for power.  It is science without a conscience.

When science is used to control people's minds and hook them up to computers for control ..... then it is no longer about pure science or truth but about CONTROL. I can go on.  When information is weaponized,  then it is no longer a noble search for knowledge but an evil desire for power. 

I gave examples of other things I have researched such as Islam. When university studies blatantly lie or leave out information which can change the picture - there is no longer a search for truth or a scientific method. I can go on and on.... but you think like the  group - not about right or wrong and do not care about justice...... otherwise you would have noticed what is going on under your nose.

38 minutes ago, AlanF said:

How did 3 million Israelites wander the Sinai wilderness for 40 years without leaving even bits of poop as evidence?

Are you looking for fossilized poop? I come from Africa and I have seen how quickly poop can dissipate. It is an organic material - not metal or plastic. In archeology one is very lucky if one finds a poop which is still intact. Poop was not embalmed like cats and crocodiles in Egypt ...lol. conditions must be ideal for preservation. 

The bible says that the entire creation is suffering due to the choices that the first man Adam made - independence from God.

Roman's 8:" that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.  22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now." 

God created everything to work perfectly together but it has been corrupted.

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

[Quoting Gershon Galil]

"It is clear that most of Parker and Dubberstein’s findings are still valid; two points, however, require emendation: 1) Following Goetze, Parker and Dubberstein supposed that the nineteenth year of Nabopolassar was intercalated. However, in the sole document on which their supposition is based (NCBT 1156), the king's name is not specified. It is more likely that this document is from the time of Kandalanu, the nineteenth year of whose reign was definitely intercalated. 2) It can be established that the first year of Nabopolassar was intercalated (BM 54209). Consequently, the number of intercalated years in the cycle beginning in 633 was at least six."

These two problems were resolved.

1) P&D recognized there was an issue with NCBT 1156 being unnamed (see P&D, p. 4, n. 9). So, the intercalary Ululu doesn't belong in Nabopolassar's 19th year. In fact, the intercalary Ululu belongs in Nabopolassar's 18th year as attested in economic tablets from that year (see D.A. Kennedy, JCS 38/2 (1986), p. 207).

2) It cannot be established that Nabopolassar's Year 1 was intercalated. C.B.F Walker collated BM 54209 in the early 1990s. He said the royal name was actually Nabonidus and published the correction in 1996. This was around the same time Galil's book was published, so Galil may not have known about it.

Consequently, the number of intercalated years in the cycle beginning 633 BCE is no more than five and in agreement with P&D's placement of intercalary months for Nabopolassar's first 11 years.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

That is why I stick to a date which can be proven beyond reasonable doubt:  530 BCE. Death of Cyrus.

How is it proven beyond reasonable doubt in your mind if you trash the very methods used to obtain that date?

[Arauna]

23 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

reasonable doubt in your mind if you trash the very methods used to obtain that date?

Please explain how I trash the methods?