JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

[Matthew9969]

On 10/14/2019 at 8:33 PM, Arauna said:

There are some mental virusses that are incurable such as a penchant for gross  immorality and being a spokesperson for it. Once one has this self-appointed view of promoting and protecting amorality - there is no cure where there is no remorse. 

 

 

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governing body claims, it's a mental illness of idolatry.

[Equivocation]

7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governing body claims, it's a mental illness of idolatry.

I don't recall the governing body claiming to be God or any of us made that claim, so the idolatry bit is a bit off handed.

Mentally Diseased (or Depraved) is in a sense of what is read in 1 Timothy 6 and several references like 2Co 11:3; 2Ti 3:8; Jude 10.

 

Lol but seriously, us claiming to be "God"? NANI!? 😬 Bro no one is equal to or greater than Jehovah God. You must be confusing us with FM or that one group in China who teaches that Jesus is a woman. Waaaaay off the rocking chair. 

 

[Arauna]

17 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

There is also a mental illness of claiming that you are God, like your governin

That is only your personal opinion not reality.  I have not read anywhere that they have said this. They claim to be the true servants of jehovah....... just like Jesus claimed to be the SON of jehovah.......... and they accused him too!

[Matthew9969]

They have said if you leave them, you are leaving Jehovah. Its pretty straightforward that they are at least putting themselves on equal par with Jehovah.

[Equivocation]

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

They have said if you leave them, you are leaving Jehovah. Its pretty straightforward that they are at least putting themselves on equal par with Jehovah.

Buddy, you have to understand what an Apostate, and you also have to understand why and how they other term is used because you literally just ignore the passage in Timothy.

It isn't straightforward, amigo, you took a bite out of an oreo and put it back in the package on this one when people noticed on this one. You are only ADDING that they are on par with Jehovah because what you said before doesn't add up. I even told you where you saw them verbally say that, but nothing...

[Witness]

5 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Buddy, you have to understand what an Apostate, and you also have to understand why and how they other term is used because you literally just ignore the passage in Timothy.

You are saying he has to understand the meaning of an apostate according to the Watchtower – “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses"   Par 16, chapter 5 of Shepherd the Flock of God.

This is where “doctrine” needs defining in 1 Tim 6:3-5

^“ If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the ^{[a] (“teachings”)}doctrine which accords with godliness, ⁴ he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, ^{5 [b] (“constant friction”)} useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and *destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.”

Have the GB spread wrong teachings about Bible truth?  Well, yes.  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200277174

Those are just what they have deemed necessary to change.  There are still outstanding doctrines that they won’t let go of. (1914, for one)

*destitute – to defraud, rob, despoil

Every wrong teaching by the GB over each year the organization has been in existence, has robbed its members of truth.  Those who withdraw themselves from such spiritual corruption are called “apostates” based on doctrine as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses.  If they seek authentic truth from Christ, they are not the apostates.  Rather, those who have held back “wholesome (‘sound, free from any mixture of error’) words” from their hearers, are men of corrupt minds, believing they can feign godliness for their own gain.  And, men of corrupt minds, "know nothing".  If they knew truth from Christ, would there be a need for the list in the link above?  John 16:24

The GB has been successful at feigning godliness, while using a pointer to explain the new meaning of “this generation”.

“Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles contrary to the teaching that you learned. Avoid them.”

“…who create divisions and obstacles” – The obstacle is the false teaching, the division occurs when one rejects it and is labeled,“apostate”.  Rom 16:17

 

"Who are the Mentally Diseased?" - Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Equivocation]

@Witness Lol, you do realize I said "other term" and mentioned "1 Timothy". Yes he would need to understand what an Apostate is, and he has to also understand the other term that in discussion, mentally diseased or as 1 Timothy puts it, in context, mentally depraved.

Right now, you are adding on something vastly different, amigo. 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Witness Lol, you do realize I said "other term" and mentioned "1 Timothy". Yes he would need to understand what an Apostate is, and he has to also understand the other term that in discussion, mentally diseased or as 1 Timothy puts it, in context, mentally depraved.

Right now, you are adding on something vastly different, amigo. 

I'll try to be more connective.  

Matthew9969  is stating that the GB is mentally diseased.  I agree, and gave reason for it.  His reason is because he feels they believe they are God.  I believe their “god” is the organization, while calling on God at the same time.  Matthew mentioned idolatry; and yes, they are idolaters.  It is preached that the organization is necessary to bring one salvation.  If you personally,  truly believe no one is equal to or greater than God, than you would truly believe the organization is not a fundamental necessity to worship Him.  Is the organization your refuge, or is God your refuge? 

“Still, as a people, “the chosen ones” and their loyal companions will physically survive the end of apostate Christendom by taking refuge in Jehovah and his mountainlike organization.”  WT 11/1/15 p. 4,5; par 8

“To whom will you compare Me, or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One.  Isa 40:25

These men - the GB -  have the ability to twist their words over a given time, which is a sign of mental and spiritual corruption.  They speak of God, but in their right hand they hold a lie. 

He feeds on ashes.
His deceived mind has led him astray,
and he cannot rescue himself,
or say, “Isn’t there a lie in my right hand?”  Isa 44:20

 

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities

"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." 

COMPARE TO THIS QUOTE:

Kingdom Ministry 11/1990 p. 1  Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established."  

BOTH MADE IN THE SAME MONTH OF THE SAME YEAR

 

 

 

[Witness]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, Equivocation said:

Lol but seriously, us claiming to be "God"?

The GB may not claim to be “God”, but by the doctrine they have developed, they have bestowed on themselves and the elders, the power to act as God and Christ, by disfellowshipping any who reject their unsound doctrine which has little or no scriptural basis.  The Bible definition of an apostate is not the one who rejects made up stories by men; but is the one who creates them, and expects other to follow without question. 

“For the time will come when people (JWs) will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear what they want to hear.”  1 Tim 4:3

 If you want to hear that 

1.  an organization is your salvation  Acts 4:11,12

2.  that men who have failed in Bible predictions and doctrine from day one, are appointed by God.  Deut 18:20-22

3.  that Zion/Temple of God is the organization and not the Temple priesthood (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10) 

and so forth...

then, who is the spiritually and mentally, unstable apostate according to scripture?  2 Pet 2:1-3

 

 

[Evacuated]

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Apart from what has already been quoted, Peter makes reference to that early apostate Balaam who sought to attack God's people. He says that when Balaam was hindered in his attempt to stumble worshippers of Jehovah by a "voiceless beast of burden", the effect was to hinder "the prophet's mad course" 2Pet.2:16. In using the Greek word "paraphronia" Peter indicates that Balaam was engaged in an act of madness or insanity and manifesting a symptom of mental disorder. A related word, "anoia" is used to describe the "sensless rage" of the Pharisees at Jesus' supposed violation of their Sabbath Laws (Luke 16:11), and also by Paul when actually describing the activity of those other ancient opposers of Jehovah's people, Jannes and Jambres. He spoke of them being completely "corrupted in mind" and that this corruption was plainly evident in the "folly" (anoia) of their action against Moses. (2Tim.3:9).

By the same token, modern day apostates exhibit they are "corrupted in mind", clearly exhibiting "folly" along with "senseless rage" and manifestly engaged in a "mad course". 

There is a PC language argument these days for avoiding the use of the word "disease" in connection with mental disorder, even the term "mental illness" is being questioned. This is due to the innapropriate reactions of  people to such terms. Over time, terms may gather an emotive potential which may provoke an inappropriate response in many. This reactive tendency is exploited by propagandists of which Christian apostates are a sub-division.   

However, no amount of feel-good euphemism can disguise the fact that Christian apostasy is abhorrent, contagious, and death dealing, whatever metaphor is used to describe it. Given the facts, it is also a mainfestation of insanity or madness. Many translators seem to agree:

2Pet.2:16:
New International Version
But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--an animal without speech--who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

New Living Translation
But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

English Standard Version
but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Study Bible
But he was rebuked for his transgression by a donkey, otherwise without speech, that spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

Berean Literal Bible
But he had reproof for his own transgression by a mute donkey; having spoken in a man's voice, it restrained the madness of the prophet.

New American Standard Bible
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

New King James Version
but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

King James Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

Contemporary English Version
But a donkey corrected him for this evil deed. It spoke to him with a human voice and made him stop his foolishness.

Good News Translation
and was rebuked for his sin. His donkey spoke with a human voice and stopped the prophet's insane action.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but received a rebuke for his transgression: A donkey that could not talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's irrationality.

International Standard Version
But he was rebuked for his offense. A donkey that normally cannot talk spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's insanity.

NET Bible
yet was rebuked for his own transgression (a dumb donkey, speaking with a human voice, restrained the prophet's madness).

New Heart English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the reproof of his violation was a dumb donkey which spoke with the voice of men, restraining the madness of the Prophet.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But he was convicted for his evil. A donkey, which normally can't talk, spoke with a human voice and wouldn't allow the prophet to continue his insanity.

New American Standard 1977
but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and was rebuked for his iniquity; a dumb animal accustomed to a yoke (upon which he was seated), speaking with man's voice, hindered the madness of the prophet.

King James 2000 Bible
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb donkey speaking with man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

American King James Version
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.

American Standard Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet.

Darby Bible Translation
but had reproof of his own wickedness -- [the] dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the folly of the prophet.

English Revised Version
but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb ass spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.

Webster's Bible Translation
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness of the prophet.

Weymouth New Testament
But he was rebuked for his transgression: a dumb ass spoke with a human voice and checked the madness of the Prophet.

World English Bible
but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man's voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.

Young's Literal Translation
and had a rebuke of his own iniquity -- a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The original post states that "JW.org Says "Apostates are Mentally Diseased." Whilst true, what is ommitted is that JW.org  is reflecting the Bible's view.

Yes. I wrote up a post on this at the time and included how other translations handled the verse. An excerpt:   (from https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/who-is-mentally-diseased.html )

“Moreover, “mentally diseased” was placed in quotation marks, indicating it was not meant as a medical diagnosis, but as an adjective to suggest a manner of thinking. Nor is the term anything original. It is merely a repeat of the Bible verse 1 Timothy 6:3-4....“If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words.”

...Douay-Rheims says ‘sick about questions and strifes of words.’ In view of the context, what sort of ‘sickness’ do you think the translator had in mind? Tuberculosis, maybe? Or is it not a sickness of thinking, so that ‘mentally diseased’ is not such a bad rendering after all? NASB...offers ‘morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words.’ Does ‘morbid,’ when applied to thinking, suggest balance and soundness of mind? Or is ‘sickness,’ even ‘mentally diseased,’ more to the point?”

Here’s a few other translations:

‘diseased’ (Emphasized New Testament; Rotherham)

‘filled with a sickly appetite’ (Epistles of Paul, W.J.Conybeare)

‘morbid appetite’ (A New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People; Charles Williams)

‘morbid craving’ (An American Translation; Goodspeed)

‘unhealthy love of questionings’ (New Testament in Basic English)

‘morbidly keen’ (NEB)

‘unhealthy desire to argue’ (Good News Bible).

“Do any of these other versions suggest soundness of mind? So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering, even if more pointed than most. Plus, once again, the term is an adjective, as it is in all other translations, not a medical diagnosis. Context (in that Watchtower article) made this application abundantly clear.”

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So the NWT’s ‘mentally diseased’ is an entirely valid offering

I like the description at 2Tim.2:17: "their word will spread like gangrene" (Gk γάγγραινα: gangraina). Doesn't seem to present any translation difficulty?