ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[b4ucuhear]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course. If Jesus “controlled” elders in the remote-control sense that these characters seem to think he should, then his message to the seven congregations of Revelation would consist of seven thumbs-up.

 The problem with suggesting that the "elders are under Jesus' full control, power and direction," is that people can get a skewed idea. Imperfect, uninspired men can become "masters of our faith" rather than "good-for-nothing slaves that are doing what they should." Of course, we respect the "arrangement" God has in place for pure worship and give "double honour" to those taking the lead. But that is a far cry from handing all of our personal thinking, choices and decisions over to imperfect men, thinking they are "fully controlled" by Jesus and anything but is being disobedient to him. Jesus and Jehovah have provided direction in his Word as guidelines for how the congregation should be run. But sometimes men in authority go "beyond what is written" and we should use our "clear thinking faculties" to be able to discern the difference. The fact is, that if one is too lazy to study and read God's Word or are gullible, you can start acting like you are in a cult - even when you are not. Child molesters (yes some have been "elders") get away with their actions for decades - not because Jesus is controlling them to do that, but because children are confused or awed by the authority they have. Even otherwise, at times, men in authority in the organization have assumed too much authority and used that authority in a way they are not authorized scripturally to do. People need to know the difference. "Whole-souled devotion" to Jehovah does not mean whole-souled devotion to imperfect men - even when we respect what authority they have as part of Jehovah's arrangement and offer scriptural obedience. Why? One reason is that some of these men are not who they appear to be (whether they be "wolves in sheep's clothing," "wicked men and imposters," "rocks hidden below the surface..." There is no level of authority within the organization where such men have not been found.) Should we be obedient to them? We need to know the difference when such men (i.e.. apostates or immoral men) direct things not in harmony with Jesus' direction as recorded in the Bible. Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before. No, the reality is that we still have to use our brains. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote  @TrueTomHarley  "Either way you cut it, divorce is a traumatic experience. There is the person who realizes the importance of picking up the pieces and moving on.

There is also the psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go and who pours all his energy into destroying his former marriage mate. This is never thought healthy and sometimes restraining orders must be issued.

Which ex-mate do you resemble? "

Then there is the third kind. The kind that will give his time willingly to gives warning to others to keep away, because the ex in a known danger.  

Because the JW Org is such a dangerous place to be right now, and it deliberately deceives people with lies and threats. 'Only baptised JWs will be saved'  'Armageddon is so very close, it's just around that very close corner'. ' You must be one of us now to be saved'. Whilst hiding paedophiles in it's midst and shunning anyone that might disagree with the GB / Elders et al. So I give the warning but i do not hate anyone.  I cannot understand how you people cannot understand me. You expect me to hate, you may even want me to hate. But i don't hate. Jesus didn't hate, even when he was dying He didn't hate. 

By the way, divorce isn't so traumatic, it's just a tad inconvenient. Having gone through two it just wastes money and time. Living far away from both of them I never see them and rarely think of them. I have no bad feelings toward them either. We spent time together, they went off with others, so be it.  I hope they both have happy lives now. But you Tom, seem to need to make me out as the 'bad guy'.  

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course. If Jesus “controlled” elders in the remote-control sense that these characters seem to think he should, then his message to the seven congregations of Revelation would consist of seven thumbs-up.

MR Harley, who are 'these characters' you talk of. 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

workbook for the week of November 18-24: "In Jesus' right hand: The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction. If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way."

1) The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction.

2)  If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way."

Deceiving and in manipulate form. In first sentence writer showing idea how Jesus will fix all things and give justice and proper help to people who are hurt by elders. In second sentence comes new message: Do not have hope how Jesus will do it because of you (or in your lifetime). You are not of His primary interest, you are just sheep. Bigger picture is more important than you as individuum. 

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Because too many things happen within the organization (even the early Christian congregation), that are clearly not "controlled" by Jesus -

The idea of "spirit guided organization" is also a trick??

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

"By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations."

We don't have any clear Bible example from 1 century or earlier how elders today should or need to handle CSA. Perhaps we can find some other modern problem too,that is not pictured in Bible.

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

So Jesus and Jehovah give us laws, principles and boundaries. But they don't remote control our/elders' decisions by means of holy spirit.

In spirit of this words i would give serious question about JW doctrine how elders are appointed by holy spirit. Here you said how elders are people who need to be in spirit and recommendations and guidelines of laws, principles and boundaries. Again, very stretchy and with strong human influence on things. It seems to me, how JW members have to decide in own mind, do they want to continue with idea of God's appointments or human appointments of  church servants.

10 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

As for your statement: "If Jesus doesn't want to control human behaviour and decisions...why do you think elders have that right?" Answer: They don't have that right. Elders don't have the right to make people's decisions for them.

We misunderstand each other. I gave point on subject; Do Jesus have interest to be First and Last in decisions that are about His Flock and Congregation,  or He leave that to elders. In fact i ask, WHO RUN church? Jesus or WT Society with elders?  

You gave answer down:

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

My description of the factors that come into play regarding that interplay, attempted to explain the discrepancies that clearly exist if you are not living in a "snow globe."

"snow globe" in general beliefs of JW's

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

“Whole-souled devotion" to Jehovah does not mean whole-souled devotion to imperfect men - even when we respect what authority they have as part of Jehovah's arrangement and offer scriptural obedience.

Pretty good answer yourself.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Only baptised JWs will be saved'  'Armageddon is so very close, it's just around that very close corner'. ' You must be one of us now to be saved'

When the new & reformed & true anointed manifests itself in just ten years, as you have said will happen, will it also state that Armageddon is close? Or will it say not to worry about it—it is far off?

Will it also say that one must be in association with it? Or will it say that any ol person believing any ol thing can be saved so long as he/she is sincere?

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Then there is the third kind. The kind that will give his time willingly to gives warning to others to keep away, because the ex in a known danger.  

Follow your ex around so as to warn others to stay away? In the actual world, this is called stalking and it can land you in jail. Police will question your motives and sanity before they question hers.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Pretty good answer yourself.

When the new & reformed & true anointed manifests itself in just ten years, as you have said will happen, will it also state that Armageddon is close? Or will it say not to worry about it—it is far off?

Will it also say that one must be in association with it? Or will it say that any ol person believing any ol thing can be saved so long as he/she is sincere?

Follow your ex around so as to warn others to stay away? In the actual world, this is called stalking and it can land you in jail.

Oh dear Mr Harley the story teller thinks he is so funny.  I see you've found a friend so that you can both pat each others back. 

@TrueTomHarley One does not need to follow JW Org around, it is Earthwide. And one can use the internet to good use to give warnings, with proof of wickedness inside of JW Org.  

What the true Anointed will NOT do is to put a date on Judgement day. Unlike the Bible Students and JW Org's use of 1914, 1918, 1975, et al. More proof of false teachings and lies from that Org.

The true Anointed will surely baptise others in the name of Almighty God and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.  Not in the name of, or connected to, an Organisation. 

NWT. Matthew 28 v 19 

¹⁹  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,o baptizing themp in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit

And actually i think the true anointed will be known well within the next ten years, not at the end of it. And they will of course make known the coming Judgement time, but will not emphasise it as most important. The most important being to help make God's name known and to clear God's name of the mess that the JW Org has made of it. Maybe God's name will not even be Jehovah. There are many other forms of God's name known. 

A lesson here for you Tom. When you say a person must be a JW to be saved. 

NWT Mark 9 v 38 through 41. 

³⁸  John said to him: “Teacher, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he was not following us.”d ³⁹  But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me. ⁴⁰  For whoever is not against us is for us.e ⁴¹  And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ,f I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.

Those ones that Jesus spoke of were not Christians following Christ in the true sense.. But they were serving God because what they did was obviously righteous in Jesus' eyes. Jesus did not condemn them did he ? Look at verses 40 & 41.  He will by no means lose his reward.

[b4ucuhear]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Deceiving and in manipulate form. In first sentence writer showing idea how Jesus will fix all things and give justice and proper help to people who are hurt by elders. In second sentence comes new message: Do not have hope how Jesus will do it because of you (or in your lifetime). You are not of His primary interest, you are just sheep. Bigger picture is more important than you as individuum. 

???

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The idea of "spirit guided organization" is also a trick??

No. But that has already been dealt with. No point in rehashing old ground with people who don't want to listen.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We don't have any clear Bible example from 1 century or earlier how elders today should or need to handle CSA. Perhaps we can find some other modern problem too,that is not pictured in Bible.

We don't have any clear examples of how you shouldn't drive a car recklessly over the speed limit either, do we? But we do, as has already been stated, have laws, principles... But you already know that, right?

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do Jesus have interest to be First and Last in decisions that are about His Flock and Congregation,  or He leave that to elders. In fact i ask, WHO RUN church? Jesus or WT Society with elders?  

Let's turn that around for a change and give you a chance to explain which flock and congregation YOU think Jesus is head over and how he directs said individuals. It's not enough to snipe from the sidelines. If you've got something better to direct people to, let's have at it. And if the best you can come up with is an anarchy of individual perceptions, let me know so I can start laughing now. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Oh dear Mr Harley the story teller thinks he is so funny.  I see you've found a friend so that you can both pat each others back. 

Maybe. You have hundreds of pals here. Why can’t I have a few chums?

29 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

Let's turn that around for a change and give you a chance to explain

This is exactly what you do to these malcontents.

29 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

It's not enough to snipe from the sidelines

Yeah!

29 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

If you've got something better to direct people to, let's have at it. 

Can you wait ten years? 4Jah says it may even be ready before then. Nothing but squat right now, though.

29 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

We don't have any clear examples of how you shouldn't drive a car recklessly over the speed limit either, do we? But we do, as has already been stated, have laws, principles...

I know from my Bible study that murder is wrong. However, guns were not invented at the time of writing. It is probably okay, then, so long as you use a gun.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

29 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

know from my Bible study that murder is wrong. However, guns were not invented at the time of writing. It is probably okay, then, so long as you use a gun.

Say wha?

Oh, I get it.

nevermind.

29 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

57 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

If you've got something better to direct people to, let's have at it. 

Can you wait ten years? 4Jah says it may even be ready before then. Nothing but squat right now, though.

" Stay Alive 'till 500,001,975 !! "

.... this is what is known in religious circles as a "Gross Prophet Margin".

 

[TrueTomHarley]

48 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Say wha?....Oh, I get it.....nevermind.

Can I have that footage of you cutting your fingernails or blowing your nose?

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

We don't have any clear examples of how you shouldn't drive a car recklessly over the speed limit either, do we? But we do, as has already been stated, have laws, principles... But you already know that, right?

Sorry, your illustration with car driving is funny. Go, please, on YT and you will learn a lot how not to drive.  Auto-school is place for first lessons. .....if you didn't know before :))

2 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Let's turn that around for a change and give you a chance to explain which flock and congregation YOU think Jesus is head over and how he directs said individuals.

I suppose how his flock is made of people who put faith in him and listen to his voice and how he directs them by his spirit (for example, when two or three gathered in my name i am with them). 

We don't need to turn around nothing. Few words is enough, don't you agree? 

[b4ucuhear]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I suppose how his flock is made of people who put faith in him and listen to his voice and how he directs them by his spirit (for example, when two or three gathered in my name i am with them). 

And who would you identify as being that group of people? Are there just two or three? Or two hundred and three? Two thousand or three? Who are they? After all, everyone claims to be part of Jesus' flock but Jesus clearly indicated that most who claim to serve him would not actually be approved. And how can you expect to "gather together in my name" with them if you don't even know who they are?

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

We don't need to turn around nothing. Few words is enough, don't you agree? 

Not really. With all due respect, I'm still waiting for you to answer my simple question whether many words or few. Take as long as you like. (Well, less than "10 years" anyway, cause you know what happens then...;)

Oh, and while we are on the subject, do you also believe that the true anointed will be manifest within 10 years and make the date of the judgment known? And if not, why not? Please back up your answer with scriptural references - especially about the 10 years... 

[TrueTomHarley]

16 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

Well, less than "10 years" anyway, cause you know what happens then...;)

Maybe considerably less, I’ve been told.