ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You showed little attempt to redirect my words. This is something what i wouldn't expect from you :))

Come come. Don’t be unkind. It was just a throwaway line at the beginning. I went on to devote several paragraphs to the points you raised.

I’m human, too, you know. And he is a dodo. He (unlike you) cannot find a single charitable thing to say about his former faith or those within it. In light of this, the question that begs to be answered is: How could he possibly have been so stupid to have joined it at all, given that he now insists it is wrong (and wicked!) in every particular?

BTW, this is where the ‘victim of a cult” defense comes from.. People brilliant in their own eyes cannot admit that they made a colossal mistake, so they pass it off as a sinister cult that “brainwashed” them—something that can happen to the most intelligent of persons (such as themselves).

To his credit, 4Jah2Me does not do this. Though he may have other faults, he is not high in his own eyes.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

This is the Dodo calling the world from England  

@TrueTomHarley Do you ever wonder why people get divorced ? 

Well one big reason is simply that people change. The person that one marries may be a wonderful, giving, loving, person. But somewhere down the line that person one marries may change. Of course both people will change to some degree. But if the marriage partner turns unpleasant, selfish, dishonest, disloyal, and even cruel, then it is understandable that one may choose to leave and maybe even divorce. 

So it is with the JW Org. It has changed. Changed so much it is barely recognisable. Changed so many of it's beliefs and doctrines. Changed even those who are supposed to be the F&DS. Changed to become selfish and only concerned about it's own welfare. Suddenly the 'hidden leaders' are paraded in front of the whole world. Those 8 MEN are seen as heroes, those whom call themselves the F&DS. And of course the 'dirty washing' of probably 70 + years, is suddenly revealed, as scripture said it would be. Things done in darkness are brought out into the light... Then of course we have the GB that gives it's blessing to the telling of lies, and they call it 'spiritual warfare'.  So, therefore, anything can be said and done. A scripture, but you know I'm useless at such things,  something about, 'wrong being seen as right, and right being seen as wrong'. So now lies are seen as right before God it seems. Well in the eyes of the GB and Co anyway. 

So the Jehovah's Witnesses that i joined so long ago was not the JW Org of out present day. Back then it had some element of truth and some meaning and purpose, other than it's own selfishness. But now it is just a shell which has been filled with disgusting things..... Add to this that back then there was NO internet. There was no quick way of researching things. It was not possible to compare information and to decide for one's self what was right or wrong. Only recently has this been possible... So there is your answer Mr Harley. The Org is not what it was, and the information, some of which is freely available on here, was not so available back then. 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

The classic example of this is the movie "The Sound of Music".

Eric Von Trapp willingly served Germany during World War II as a submarine captain, but when the Nazis came along Germany was no longer Germany, and he and his family (Julie Andrews included) did their best to escape to Switzerland. He was a loyal, patriotic Austrian/German ... but he had not forsaken Germany ... Germany had forsaken him.

( The Society had the blood issue correct the first time ... then changed it to stop being being sued and lose money. etc.)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Theology is now being decided on the basis of economics.

I can still see Julie Andrews running up that 25 degree slope Swiss mountain with a suitcase and a guitar, and swinging them around as she sang "The hills are alive .... with the sound of  .... muuuuuusiccc ...", as the camera zoomed in.

I remember thinking if I did that, I would have a heart attack, and die right there.

Since there is no Switzerland for us ... I guess we will just have to endure.

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

10 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

movie "The Sound of Music".

excellent  movie

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Thank you. I like your example, it fits well. 

However i feel to 'endure' as part of the JW Org, is to be part of the problems it causes.

We are all different but for my part I could not continue in an organisation that I know is displeasing to God and Christ.  But i do think that before Armageddon / Judgement day, that God will provide that Switzerland which is needed to help true worshippers to survive into God's new world. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Did you attend the same college JTR attended? Please, give me a heads up, so as not to attend that school of higher education.

... as in heads up ...on a pole in the yard?   I have no objection to helping you with that.

I am a graduate of Wossamotta U.

HIGHLY recommended by Moose and Squirrel.

 

 

( Notice ... no head ! )

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

if the marriage partner turns unpleasant, selfish, dishonest, disloyal, and even cruel, then it is understandable that one may choose to leave and maybe even divorce. So it is with the JW Org. It has changed. 

If you want to use that analogy, that you divorced them, then you must see it all the way through..

Either way you cut it, divorce is a traumatic experience. There is the person who realizes the importance of picking up the pieces and moving on.

There is also the psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go and who pours all his energy into destroying his former marriage mate. This is never thought healthy and sometimes restraining orders must be issued.

Which ex-mate do you resemble?

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

HIGHLY recommended by Moose and Squirrel.

Beavers, too, are highly educated. They are graduates of Dam U.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Then there is the problem of minor children .....

Ever notice ho much the 1960's Rocky the Flying Squirrel looks like the 1950's Ipana Toothpaste spokesrodent Bucky Beaver?

Coincidence?

I think NOT!

( I think I will let you do the homework on this one ....)

[b4ucuhear]

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If Jesus as Master and Lord not want to control human behaviour and decisions, as you said, why you think that elders have that right?

In continue question comes: Why you think that Jesus have no interest to "control" those who "controlling" sheeps in HIS Flock?  

 

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Maybe we can go to use other words instead word "control"?

The word "control" comes up because of what was stated in the workbook for the week of November 18-24: "In Jesus' right hand: The stars are under Jesus' full control, power and direction. If someone on a body of elders needs correction, Jesus will see to it that this is done in his own time and way." One of the WT references for Rev. 1:20 in the Study Bible adds: "the 'stars' are in Jesus' right hand - within his power, control, favour, and protection. Therefore they are "accountable" to him. By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations."

So, if Jesus controls all the elders like some sort of spiritual remote control by means of holy spirit, (as some may think), then everything that takes place within the organization should be perfect, because Jesus is perfect and would use holy spirit in a perfect way. Why is that of interest? Because too many things happen within the organization (even the early Christian congregation), that are clearly not "controlled" by Jesus - unless he is deliberately controlling them to do bad things. I won't get into detail, but things happen that shouldn't happen and even very unscriptural things happen. My description of the factors that come into play regarding that interplay, attempted to explain the discrepancies that clearly exist if you are not living in a "snow globe." I had mentioned 1 Tim. 5:24 because it plays an important role in helping to understand why bad things can go on within the congregation for decades. All one has to do is look at the way that scripture is true historically to get a better understanding of how it applies today. The fact that elders have a measure of autonomy is hinted at by the phrase: "By heeding his words to each of the seven congregations, present-day elders see how they can handle similar situations." So elders make their decision based on "heeding his words" which are contained where? In the Bible - and so are accountable to Jesus as to how they use the authority he gives them. They aren't mindless robots on remote control that can never make mistakes (I know that is an extreme description, but the fact is, that some - too many - people have a mindset that is very close to that. 

To illustrate the difference, consider how Jehovah and Jesus deal with humans. When Jehovah directed Adam to name the animals, he gave him the authority to name them and Adam used his personal discretion as to what to call them. Of course, there would be limits or boundaries to the authority granted Adam (for instance he wouldn't be allowed to call every animal "Jehovah" - right?) But Jehovah didn't control his freedom of choice - even when Adam decided to be disobedient. Or to illustrate further: CONTROL: mom tells Junior to buy everything on a predetermined shopping list. One pound of this, 5 ounces of that...only get the potatoes on sale, bring back a receipt and the change, be back in an hour. AUTONOMOUS AUTHORITY: mom tells junior to buy what he would like for supper and she will make it. (Boundary): Just make it healthy and include the main food groups. 

So Jesus and Jehovah give us laws, principles and boundaries. But they don't remote control our/elders' decisions by means of holy spirit. And as stated earlier, holy spirit can at times be hard to quantify. It played a strong influence in the anointing process, but there were still things early Christians - even miraculously inspired Christians - didn't understand, disagreed with each other about and got wrong. Nothing has changed that way. Not everything Bible writers wrote was included in the Bible canon either. In fact, one of the "gifts" described at 1 Corinthians 1:10, is the ability to miraculously "discern inspired expressions." As the Study Bible comments: "Christians also needed guidance to discern which letters and writings should be circulated among the congregations and to discern which would become part of the Bible canon."

As for your statement: "If Jesus doesn't want to control human behaviour and decisions...why do you think elders have that right?" Answer: They don't have that right. Elders don't have the right to make people's decisions for them. Their role is to encourage people to make decisions that are in harmony with what is directed in God's Word. And to keep the congregation without spot and blemish - even if that means disfellowshipping unrepentant individuals. If Jehovah and Jesus never took away freedom of choice from even Satan and Adam, what makes you think he would direct elders to do that?  Jehovah wants people to serve him willingly out of love. Not because they are remote-controlled robots. However, his servants were always warned that with freedom of choice, comes responsibility and accountability. The "blessing or the malediction."

[TrueTomHarley]

19 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

So Jesus and Jehovah give us laws, principles and boundaries. But they don't remote control our/elders' decisions by means of holy spirit.

Of course. If Jesus “controlled” elders in the remote-control sense that these characters seem to think he should, then his message to the seven congregations of Revelation would consist of seven thumbs-up.

[b4ucuhear]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you want to use that analogy, that you divorced them, then you must see it all the way through..

Either way you cut it, divorce is a traumatic experience. There is the person who realizes the importance of picking up the pieces and moving on.

There is also the psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go and who pours all his energy into destroying his former marriage mate. This is never thought healthy and sometimes restraining orders must be issued.

Which ex-mate do you resemble?

Pretty good answer

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Thank you for proving my point.

Did you attend the same college JTR attended? Please, give me a heads up, so as not to attend that school of higher education.

@César Chávez It seems it was you that totally missed the point.  You are showing dictionary meaning of  WORLDLY 'wisdom'.

BUT what I said was GODLY WISDOM.       There is such a difference, as Jesus made clear to us.

What i seem to have proven is that you are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'.  Maybe you use your dictionary more than you Bible .