ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Anointed Christians back then were inspired of God, hence they wrote Bible books that we have now. 

They didn’t know that at the time, you dodo. It is only after the fact that their letters were collected and included in the Bible canon.

The example of Paul is almost as bad as that of Peter the Chicken (Galatians 2:21) and John, who lost every 2nd disciple, as I put before ‘hardening of the mental arteries’ JTR for his consideration.

“To the married people I give instructions, yet not I but the Lord, that a wife should not depart from her husband; but if she should actually depart, let her remain unmarried or else make up again with her husband; and a husband should not leave his wife,” he writes. (1 Corinthians 7:11)

And then...

“But to the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord: If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and yet she is agreeable to dwelling with him, let him not leave her.” Vs 12

Whoa! Going beyond what is written much?

”Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful.”  Vs 25

His opinion?!!

Can you imagine how @James Thomas Rook Jr., not to mention yourself, would have blown a gasket back then?

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Can you imagine how @James Thomas Rook Jr., not to mention yourself, would have blown a gasket back then

No problem, that's why I keep a drawer full of spare gaskets.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

You know, the Bible way back then was actually just a collection of letters, stories, novels ( The "book" of Enoch comes to mind ...), poems, essays, and "church" stuff, some on scraps of papyrus, before it was edited and assembled into what we now call the Bible.

Since the Bible we have today was originally decided upon by the Catholic Church ( Eusebius of Caesarea was there and watched it being done, as well as helped ...), should we credit THEM with being inspired?

( I hope JWI jumps in on this one and does the "heavy lifting", to get it straightened out ....)

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Yeah .... I remember (hits self in head several times with a ball-peen hammer, to not laugh out loud ...) when the Catholics produced the KJV, about 900AD.

May I then take your answer to my question, César Chávez, as a resounding YES?

[b4ucuhear]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

as I put before ‘hardening of the mental arteries’ JTR for his consideration.

That's a new one. Funny though.

[JW Insider]

54 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

( I hope JWI jumps in on this one and does the "heavy lifting", to get it straightened out ....)

A perfect topic for another day. This is a topic I might not be ready for. But I've seen enough to know you are making some good points and asking some good and thoughtful questions. I'm surprised that the topic gets completely ignored for the most part among Witnesses and every other religious group I've wondered about. 

[Anna]

On 12/24/2019 at 10:22 AM, 4Jah2me said:

comparing the GB / W/t / JW Org to a fortuneteller.

No, I was not meaning to compare them to a fortuneteller, just the situation, the method of putting something out there and seeing if it sticks. Like a shot in the dark. I don't think the GB/wt do this all the time, just in a few cases. 1914 being one of them, and the overlapping generation another one....

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So, many are willing to wait and keep on preaching errors in various modes as individuals who have; doubts, are not fully convinced, are in disagreement or are in full agreement?

There are many ways to put across the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the Bible without having to be specific about some things we are not sure about. For example we can preach the Kingdom, and what it will do, and that it will come soon, without even mentioning 1914, for example.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Was Jesus saying he "controlled" all behaviour and decisions in the congregation? Or was it that the elders were responsible to use the authority granted to them in harmony with his direction and God's Word?

On first question answer would be: Behaviour and decisions are human freedom, and Jesus not need to "control" this aspect. But Congregation is His Work, He made Congregation, and i guess He has interest that this body to be as much as possible without blame. 

On second question answer would be: Elders want to be elders by own will, no one force them to be on that position, i guess. Did Jesus choose them or GB? What ever be the case, both of this group claims how Jesus is their Lord. 

About "control". Elders working as "controllers", because they try to correct and dfd all individuals who not behave in harmony to rules. Well, i see a little contradiction about your claim how Jesus not want to "control" behaviour and decision of people in the congregation. If Jesus as Master and Lord not want to control human behaviour and decisions, as you said, why you think that elders have that right?

In continue question comes: Why you think that Jesus have no interest to "control" those who "controlling" sheeps in HIS Flock?  

Maybe we can go to use other words instead word "control"?

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Anointed Christians back then were inspired of God, hence they wrote Bible books that we have now. 

They didn’t know that at the time, you dodo. It is only after the fact that their letters were collected and included in the Bible canon.

This is possible what you said Tom. To be inspired but not have awareness of that. Of course, we can make some more thoughts on that too.

But i wish to ask: if Inspired individual is not aware of own state of inspiration, how individuals who are not inspired by God can made, make claims about God's manifest of inspiration in other persons? Have in mind that devil can make inspirational miracles too. 

How you who are not inspired by God recognize that someone else is inspired by God? We are not speaking about "miracles" as walking on water and feeding 5000 people with few fish, but about doctrines.

After uninspired men have collected some letters from dust and caves, their eyes were "opened" to see how what they have in hands are "inspired" by God????? Amazing! Or do you suggesting how Pope and other bishops were "inspired", while choosing letters, but also not been aware how God inspired them for this task?

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They didn’t know that at the time, you dodo. It is only after the fact that...This is possible what you said Tom.

 

It is more than “possible.” He is definitely a dodo.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How you who are not inspired by God recognize that someone else is inspired by God? 

I don’t try to micromanage it. I back up and look at the bigger picture. I look at Holy Spirit as “the wind [that] blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going.” It seems like a fool’s errand to try to stipulate just how or even if it operates in any given situation. (John 3:8)

 I take for granted that Holy Spirit does not stop a human from being human. It certainly didn’t in the first century. Why expect that it would today? I put stock in passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16....All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,  Humans do their best, botch up many things, and somehow God pulls a rabbit out of the hat with it.

We carry on here at the WNMF as though these matters can be settled objectively, when the very nature of our being defeats the goal and ensures that all will be subjective. “Taste and see that Jehovah is good,” the psalm says. Some have tasted and seen that he is bad. How are you going to prove otherwise to them? Their experience is their experience and they process it as they will. It is more a matter of the heart than the head. The heart chooses what it wants and then entrusts the head to provide a veneer of rationality to give the appearance that it is the head. But it is the heart all along.

Why is it that so few people change in any interaction such as this? Why does not one ever persuade the other? Not just this forum on spiritual topics, but on any forum about anything? I have seen only the tiniest shifting of opinion from certain participants, and in most cases, none at all. It is not a matter of the head.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

After uninspired men have collected some letters from dust and caves, their eyes were "opened" to see how what they have in hands are "inspired" by God

Assembling the Bible canon. It’s not a bad topic of discussion and it has been brought up several times. Lately I have been listening to a series of talks from the Great Courses company entitled: “From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity.” The speaker is Bart Ehrman, Chair of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, he with a Masters of Divinity degree.

You’d almost think that the Chair of a Religious Department would believe in God, but he does not appear to. If I took a science course taught by one who thought Newton and Einstein were well intentioned but misguided zealots, I would smell a rat.

Questions for Study at the conclusion of one lecture includes: “Why do you suppose such people as Perpetua or Ignatius—who presumably had so much to offer people in this world and who could have no doubt led happy lives here—were so eager to sacrifice their bodies and leave this world?”

Thus he indicates that he does not have a clue as to what he teaches. The entire motivation of a Christian appears to be a totally foreign concept to him, notwithstanding that he is recognized as the smartest person in the room.

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

That's why the Watchtower went with their own bible, so not to be confused with that of the KJV!

John Butler (4jah2me), you can down vote all you want. The thing to remember, the jeopardy question for 1200, what is intelligence!

Intelligence isn't important. Did Jesus go to those well versed in scripture or having great knowledge ? Those that thought they were of high intelligence ? No.

What is important is Godly Wisdom 

[Srecko Sostar]

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is more than “possible.” He is definitely a dodo.

I am not talking about "dodos" ... and you know that very well. :))) You showed little attempt to redirect my words. This is something what i wouldn't expect from you :))

 

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

John 3:8

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Hmmm, i would understand how person who are  born of Spirit KNOW exactly who he/she is and where he/she is going.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is more a matter of the heart than the head

If so, then WT multiplication of all sort of knowledge is so "dodo". :))

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @TrueTomHarley  His opinion?!!

Can you imagine how @James Thomas Rook Jr., not to mention yourself, would have blown a gasket back then?

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Ah but there is the difference. To ADMIT it is one's own opinion. BUT the GB pretend they are the F&DS and in so doing they pretend to be giving God's words or Christ's instructions to the congregation. 

Do the Watchtower writers / GB ever say 'This is only our opinion' ?  Do they ever say 'This message is not from God or Christ, it is just from us'

No i don't think so. The GB say ' Jehovah and Jesus Christ trusts us, so the congregation should trust us' 

 

Quote @TrueTomHarley "I put stock in passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16....All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness," 

But that scripture must have been referring to the Hebrew writings as the Greek writings hadn't been completed or gathered at that time. As you yourself said those 'chosen ones' didn't know their words were to be included in the later books of a collection of writings we call the Bible or Holy Scriptures. 

I love the way you have to make fun of people that prove you and your Org wrong on so many counts. It shows the hurt that you and others feel. The bruising of your heart when some of us make valid points. True I do tend to generalise a bit. And true, many 'boots on the ground' JWs / basic congregants, can be 'nice people' sometimes. But I just feel sorry for those ones, they have stopped using their own minds and hearts, and have knuckled under to carry the heavy loads put on them by the GB and Elders and all those in between. Maybe i should change my user name to dodo  ....  It's raining again here. I hope the weather is better where ever you are.