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Srecko Sostar

Overlapping generation - simplest way for public to understand

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4Jah2me -
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One day while out in Field Service with the smartest brother at our Kingdom Hall, a long time Elder and an extremely dedicated man, I asked him if he understood the overlapping generation dogma, and could explain it to me.  (He was driving, I was riding "shotgun", and there were two Sisters in the back seat).

He was very thoughtful, for a few moments, and replied "I think they are trying to do the best they can ...."

He could not explain it to me.

Perhaps he needed to see this video!

It's so CLEAR to me now!

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    • By Anna
      Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts.
      When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population)
      If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses).  If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today.
      If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400.
      With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.
      Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think.....
      Any scriptural thoughts?
       
    • By JW Insider
      Even before C.T.Russell was born, commentaries on Bible prophecy included  dozens of potential dates. Nearly 200 years ago, a couple of them even included 1914 as potentially significant time period. The "1914 presence" doctrine, however, is only about 75 years old.
      All the ideas behind the Watch Tower's version of the 1914 doctrine have already been discussed for decades now, and all of them, so far, have been shown to be problematic from a Scriptural point of view. Since the time that the doctrine generally took its current shape in 1943, the meanings and applications of various portions of Matthew 24 and 25 have already been changed, and the timing of various prophesied events and illustrations have changed. Most recently, the meaning and identification of the "faithful and discreet slave" has changed. And the definition of "generation" has changed about half-a-dozen times. This doesn't mean that the current understandings are impossible, of course, only that it has become less likely from the point of view of reason and reasonableness.
      Besides, for most of the years of teaching this doctrine, we have had the flexibility of extending the "1914 generation" from a possible 40 years, up to 70, then 75, then 80 years. And this has been applied to teenagers who saw 1914, 10-year-olds who saw 1914, then even newborns who saw 1914. With every one of these options already tried and stretched to their limits, we finally were forced to convert the meaning of generation from its most common meanings and give it a new "strained" meaning that has no other Biblical parallel. (See Exodus 1:6; Matthew 1:17; 16:4; 23:36; Luke 11:50)
      But that flexibility is still seen as the last reason for hope that the Watch Tower Society might have still been correct in hanging on to 1914. Since the Bible says that a lifespan is 70 or 80 years and 1914 + 80 = 1994, the "generation" doctrine in its original form (1943) could remain stable until about 1994. Of course, a lifespan could technically reach to 120 years or more, and Gen 6:3 even gives vague support to the idea that the "1914 generation" could last 120 years, until 2034.
      The current alternative solution is to make the generation out of the length of two lifespans, which technically could be double 120 years, or nearly 240 years from 1914. That would have had the potential to reach to the year 2154 (1914+240) except for the caveat that it can, by its new definition, only refer to anointed persons who discerned the sign in 1914 and whose lives overlapped (technically, by as little as one second) with the lifespan of another anointed person representing the second group. If persons from each group don't really discern their own "anointing" until age 20, for example, this would effectively remove 40 years from the overall maximum. 1914+120-20+120-20 = 2114. We could also assume a possible lifespan of more than 120 years, but otherwise, the new two-lifespan generation could potentially make the generation last 200 years. This "technical maximum" is not promoted currently, because for now we look at examples like Fred Franz who was part of that original generation already anointed and who saw the sign, and the typical example of an anointed brother who was apparently "anointed" prior to Franz' death in 1992 would be someone like Governing Body member, Brother Sanderson, who was born in 1965, baptized in 1975, and was already a "special pioneer" in 1991. His is currently 52.
      However, the generation problem is just one more problem now which we can add onto the list of all the other points that make up the 1914 doctrine. Here are several points related to 1914 that appear problematic from a Scriptural point of view:
      All evidence shows the 1914 date is wrong when trying to base it on the destruction of Jerusalem. (Daniel 1:1; 2 Chron 36:1-22; Jer 25:8-12; Zech 1:12, 7:4; Ezra 3:10-13) Paul said that Jesus sat at God's right hand in the first century and that he already began ruling as king at that time. (1 Cor 15:25) Jesus said not to be fooled by the idea that wars and rumors of wars would be the start of a "sign" (Matt 24:4,5) Jesus said that the "parousia" would be as visible as lightning (Matt 24:27). He spoke against people who might say he had returned but was currently not visible. (Matt 24:23-26) Jesus said that his "parousia" would come as a surprise to the faithful, not that they would discern the time of the parousia decades in advance. (Matt 24:36-42) Jesus said that the kingdom would not be indicated by "signs" (Luke 17:20, almost any translation except NWT in this case) The "synteleia" (end of all things together) refers to a concluding event, not an extended period of time (Matt 28:20) Jesus was already called ruler, King and even "King of Kings" in the first century. (1 Tim 6:15, Heb 7:2,17; Rev 1:5; 17:14) Wicked, beastly King Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and humiliation does not represent Jesus as the "lowliest one of mankind." (Heb 1:5,6; 2:10,11; Daniel 4:23-25; cf. Heb 2:7; 1 Pet 3:17,18) The demise of a Gentile kingdom cannot rightly represent the time of the rise of the Gentile kingdoms (Daniel 4:26,27) The Gentile kings did not meet their demise in 1914. (Rev 2:25,26) The time assigned to the Gentile Times that Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:24 is already given as 3.5 times, not 7 times (Revelation 11:2,3) The Devil was already brought down from "heaven" in the first century. (1 John 2:14,15; 1 Pet 5:8; Luke 10:18; Heb 2:14) The Bible says that the "last days" began in the first century. (Acts 2:14-20; 2 Tim 3:1-17; 1 Peter 3:3-5; Heb 1:2, almost any translation except NWT in this case.)
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    • By JW Insider
      There are evidently FOUR basic problems in the latest explanation of the "GENERATION" teaching. Of course, this is the teaching based on Jesus' words in Matthew 24:34 where he says that "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." The latest update to the explanation is that Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed persons: the first group who could discern the meaning of the sign they witnessed in 1914, and a second group of anointed persons, whose lives overlapped with that first group.
      #1. It creates a set time limit for Armageddon to occur. #2. It is based on the idea that the date 1914 was predicted in the Bible. #3. It is based on a false definition of the word "generation." #4. It is based on a false premise about a supposed belief in 1914 that didn't even exist in 1914. If we're serious about:
      paying constant attention to ourselves and our teaching, (1 Tim 4:16) handling the word of God aright, having nothing to be ashamed of, (2 Tim 2:15) not paying attention to false stories, (1 Tim 1:4-7) making sure of all things, (1 Thess 5:21) knowing that teachers will receive heavier judgment, etc., (James 3:1) then we would not be very good Christians if any of us taught something that we were not sure about.
      On this forum, participants have already dealt extensively with #1 and #2 above, but there has not yet been a thorough discussion and focus on points #3 and #4.
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      After much prayerful reflection on the Scriptures, I have come to the realisation that the true identity of the “generation” Jesus spoke of at Matthew
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. may soon be revealed. There Jesus said, “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” I think the understanding Jehovah’s Witnesses currently hold on this scripture is incorrect. I believe that Joel chapter 2 will have a second fulfillment in the last days of this complete world system, just as it had a primary fulfillment in the last days of the Jewish system at Pentecost 33 CE. At that time true Christians were sealed with Holy Spirit. I believe that there will be yet another true spirit anointing or sealing in the near future. This is what John was referring to when he spoke of the sealing of the 144,000 in revelation chapter 7. The spiritual Israelite nation must be reborn. (Isaiah 66:8). The great crowd mentioned in the same chapter belong to the same group but are seen standing before the throne after Armageddon coming out of all nations. This sealing will result in a true restoration of pure worship as indicated by Ezekiel’s prophecy of the valley of dry bones. (Ezekiel 37). Jehovah blows his spirit into the bones and they live. The preaching work up to now could be compared to the work of John the Baptist. It is a baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins. By their actions Jehovah’s Witnesses prove themselves to be true Christians having repented of their sins. Yet they are not spirit anointed. I believe Jehovah is preparing them for a true spirit anointing. Their understanding of scripture will be refined. (See Malachi 3:1) The great worldwide preaching work, in fulfillment of the the “angel flying in mid heaven with everlasting good news to declare” is yet future. (Revelation 14) The fulfillment of the prophecies in Matthew 24, and other related prophecies concerning the last days find their real fulfillment in the future. The last days have not yet begun. Jesus told his followers to “Learn from the fig tree when it’s branch grows tender and puts forth leaves.” (Matthew Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. -34). The fig tree represents Israel. I believe that this illustration could be a referring to the spiritual Israelite nation blossoming forth beginning with an outpouring of Holy Spirit. At least some of the generation of Christians that witness the birth of this new spiritual nation will be still alive on earth to witness the end of the age. This outpouring of Holy Spirit may occur in the very near future.  
       
       
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      Si Perú gana el mundial...' así empiezan todos los resultados de esta aplicación de Facebook que muestra resultados como: 'Prometo no caer en sus mentiras', 'Prometo dejar de bebes', 'Prometo abrir la puerta a los testigos de Jehova', entre otras.

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    • By gfnslave
      So, I am reading in Matthew about how many generations there we're from the deportation from Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations. The way I do math 607 divided by 14 equals 43.3 years. This is how Scripture measures a generation.The way I see it since 1914 we have had 2 complete generations and are now working on a 3rd. According to Jesus shouldn't the end have come by now?
       
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    • By Kurt
      Why did Jack cry? Maybe it was because he realized the old will get young again....JWs do have the Truth...and soon everyone will see that.....
    • By PeterR
      So if this is the basis for your belief, then probably what you'll want to do is first of all find out which bible book your foundational scripture is in. (It's Exodus by the way.)
       
      Ex 1:6 - Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.
       
      It's not a complicated scripture.
      Let me ask you this. If you die in 2017 and all your brothers and all your generation also die at some point, what does "generation" mean if you don't impose any weirdness on the text? Do your precise birth and death times change the fundamental meaning of the word generation?
      Of course there are overlaps in a "generation". The only possible way for there not to be overlaps would be for each generation to have a batch of children be born at the same minute of a certain year, and die at a simultanous minute of a later year.
      But does your grandfather suddenly become part of your generation just because your life overlapped with him? Does that overlap of a few years between you and your brothers give latitude to distort the language to allow for President Kennedy to be of your generation even if your life overlapped with him?
       
       
       
       
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    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      WHY DO MEN HAVE NIPPLES?
      uH .. OR IS IT "NIPPELS"?
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      At some point or another, you’ve probably seen someone reference research which suggests that having a good sense of humor is linked to better health outcomes. Sometimes, this is referenced as more or less a fact — we know this to be true. And sometimes, the point is stretched yet further: therefore, actively working to have a sense of humor can help you stay healthy.
      But when you look at some of this research, things are actually not quite so simple. In a post published today on BPS Research Digest, Christian Jarrett nicely explains the limitations of some of the health-humor studies and deftly unpacks why they don’t say what they seem to.
      The research in question this time around is an article consisting of a series of studies published in Personality and Social Psychological Bulletin.
      Let’s let Jarrett explain two of the studies’ setups:
      Heidi Fritz at Clarkson University and her colleagues began by conducting a diary study with 21 women and 1 man diagnosed with the chronic pain condition Fibromyalgia Syndrome. The participants first completed baseline questionnaires about their physical health, psychological state, their tendency to see the funny side of things (for example, they were asked whether they would typically experience mirth in situations such as a waiter spilling a drink over them), how much socialising and support they’d had with friends and relatives recently, and how much they tended to reappraise challenges, such as looking for the positives in a difficult situation. Then the participants spent the next four days completing diary entries several times each day about their physical and emotional state.

      A second study involved just over 100 undergrad students answering questions about their psychological and emotional state, their tendency to find things funny and make jokes, and they also recalled a previous distressing event and how much it continued to affect them.
      As Jarrett explains, the results suggested that, overall, those with better senses of humor were more likely to handle certain types of stressors, as well as the lingering effects of trauma. But: “[T]he obvious problem with these first two studies is that it might simply be that the less distressed participants were better able to experience humour, rather than their inclination for humour reducing their stress levels or, in the case of the first study, their physical symptoms.” This is a potential problem with basically all correlational research, of course, and it’s why it’s frustrating to see so many people extract “X causes Y!” takeaways from studies that are a bit more complicated.
      What’s interesting about this particular article is that, as Jarrett explains, a third study was designed to test the causality question — that is, whether a sense of humor causes better health and more resilience — but “it failed, statistically, to establish that a stronger inclination for humour at baseline was directly associated with less distress at follow-up.”
      So what we’re left with are some ambiguous correlations — interesting in their own right and worth probing forward. Which is fine! That’s science. But science is complicated, and the stories we tell should about it should reflect that.

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    • By TheWorldNewsOrg
      via TheWorldNewsOrg
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    • By TrueTomHarley
      I knew Seth Sheepngoats would pull something like this, I knew it! The tip-off should have been when I saw him go into that costume shop.
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      When he emerged, it was with a huge, magnificent Santa Claus beard!
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    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      The thought occurred to me that some might be interested in EXPERIMENTING with a new line of Witnessing, not to replace anything that we might be doing now, but to "widen out" to niche' audiences.  There is a communications network that exists available to you ... text only, back from the 1990s when the Internet was first formed, and it is still going strong today ,,,, although it is supplanted or even overtaken by the likes of Facebook or Twitter, or whatever else has evolved.
      Conversations I have had in 1997 STILL show up on the Internet, and over the years have seen the Truth handled aright change MANY opinions about TRUE Christianity ..... but it requires flexibility, and humor to try and plant some seeds of Truth on the baked hard-scrabble clay that Christendom has cooked up over the centuries ....  It's called the "Internet Relay Chat" network, or IRC., and when sick, I could spend 60 to 70 hours a month in HIGHLY EFFECTIVE Witnessing ... everybody is home, audiences of perhaps 50 people at a time, and no wasted time, or even gas money.
      Without further adieu, I will post a little sample I did when I had about ten minutes to spare ... if there is any Interest, I will give you more details .....
      Please realize there can be six to 20 people "talking" at the same time, so following is an acquired skill ....
      My Screen Name is "Greylenseman"
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      -
      * Now talking in #christiandebate
      * Topic is 'Deu31:6 Be strong and of good courage, do not fear or be in dread of them: for it is the LORD your God who goes with you; he will not fail you or forsake you."'
      * Set by VirtualPreacher!~noyb@172.56.30.255 on Thu Feb 02 19:58:51 2017
      #christiandebate url is www.acrity.org
      * BibleBot sets mode: +v Greylenseman
      <+Greylenseman> yawn
      <+dani_> ello Greylenseman
      <+Greylenseman> iya dani
      <+Greylenseman> why up so early?
      <+mugzZzZz> Heads are rollinghttp://www.cnn.com/2017/02/17/politics/tillerson-state-department-shakeup/ at the State Department - The news sent shock waves through the agency and has left career officials on edge -
      * mugzZzZz is now known as mugz
      <+mugz> more draining of the swamp
      <+mugz> er
      <+mugz> Heads are rolling at the State Department Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      * +mugz sips more coffee
      <+Greylenseman> drill baby, drill!
      <+mugz> "careful with that ax Eugine"
      <+Greylenseman> I have NEVER had a desire to go to Heaven.
      <+dani_> do you have a mental connection with God ?
      <+dani_> does god read your mind Greylenseman ?
      <+dani_> Moshe`, does God read your mind?
      <+thehorror> I'd hate to go to heaven and not see my friends and family
      <+Greylenseman> I hope so ... but God's ORIGINAL plan was a physical Universe filled with the children of DNA ... that has NOT changed.
      <@Ross> those who dont goto heaven dont go by their choice
      <@Ross> oroville dam residents havce to evacuate again
      <+Greylenseman> SURPRISE!
      <+Greylenseman> thehorror: or meet some reelatives that were miscarriages, and abortions ...
      <+Greylenseman> eeeeew
      <+Greylenseman> who, IF they grew up, would never meet puppies.
      <+Greylenseman> OH YEAH, little white cloud shapes ....
      <+Greylenseman> ...like foggy tribbles ...
      * welloktheniguess (~wellokthe@220-253-144-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) has joined #christiandebate
      * BibleBot sets mode: +v welloktheniguess
      * +K83K (~MADE-IN83@vlan-132-19-116.comnet.bg) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
      <+Greylenseman> nothing like living in an evironment with aborted fetuses that never grow up, playing with foggy tribbles.
      <+Greylenseman> ... and then there is the omnipresent HARP music.....
      <+Greylenseman> could be worse .... could be accordians!
      <+Greylenseman> .
      <+dani_> that's crazy Greylenseman
      <+Greylenseman> yeas it IS ... that is the whole point.
      <+dani_> but the alternative isnt much less crazy
      * +welloktheniguess (~wellokthe@220-253-144-178.dyn.iinet.net.au) Quit (Quit: welloktheniguess)
      * K83K (~MADE-IN83@vlan-132-19-116.comnet.bg) has joined #ChristianDebate
      * BibleBot sets mode: +v K83K
      <+Greylenseman> there are inly two alternatives..... just plain ordinary death ... whic we all know is the case ...irregardless of our claimed theology, or being SO HOLY that God KNOWS he can give you immortality without ever later having to kill you for treason.  Hell is a fantasy designed to separate you from your wallet.
      <+Greylenseman> In all human history, Revelation says only 144,000 are invited to live as immortals in Heaven .. men and women fully tested , and rightous beyond MY ability to understand.
      <+Greylenseman> I would be looking for "loopholes".
      <+Greylenseman> well, gotta go ... gotta get a nap.
      * Disconnected
      .
       
      I just reviewed the last post, not technically accurate, as I forgot to mention the Paradise Earth as an option, but I did allude to it in the beginning ... I was tired.
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      .
      This continuous, never-ending global controversy has been going on since the 1960's, that I am aware of personally, and even before, when Judge Rutherford PERSONALLY forbade beards among Jehovah's witnesses, with the possible exception of post-menopausel Sisters .... and the Society has never definitively stated ANYTHING. 
      With my usual lack of humor I present the Draft Copy of the December 2016 issue of the Watchtower which showed a Brother shaving on the cover ... it was changed before being distributed, because the Brothers responsible for the VERY GOOD and accurate article ... disappeared mysteriously.
      After you save the file to your hard drive, from the TOOL BAR, be sure to set your ADOBE PDF reader under VIEW to "Reading Mode" and under ZOOM,  "Fit Page" to read it.
      Dec 2016 Watchtower draft article .pdf
      .
       
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    • By Outta Here
      Since 2009 there has been a great deal of discussion around the concept of an "overlapping generation" in connection with Jesus words at Matt. 24:34.
      I don't see anything particularly difficult about the idea myself. 
      I mean, you have a two stage relay. Start point: 1914 CE on one end. Finish point: the "great tribulation" on the other end. The track between is the stream of time.
      As it is impossible for one team of runners to span the distance from the start, 1914 CE, to the finish, the "great tribulation", there are two teams of "anointed" Christians. Starting the race, those who saw the year 1914 eventually meet up with those (born later) who will see the outbreak of the great tribulation. The baton is passed and the race completed by the second group.
      The entire group are seen as the (anointed) generation of the last days in Jesus prophecy. Not really rocket science is it?
      But, in all the discussion around this, I see a phrase in Jesus words at Matt 24:34 I find intriguing. He said that "this generation will by no means pass away"  (NWT)
      Other translations render this differently, many saying simply "will not pass" or words to that effect. Why does the NWT render it in this particular manner?
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