THE WATCHTOWER HISTORY OF GOG OF MAGOG

[Srecko Sostar]

15 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Do you agree with @Srecko Sostar that Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas?

If we start from a simple formula in which today's JWs claim that YHVH has always had its Witnesses on this planet, which we can call Jehovah's Witnesses or Witnesses for Jehovah or otherwise, then Yes, one type of Jehovah's Witnesses celebrated Christmas at a time in the past.

If one wants to deny this, then one should make some facts or provable claims that could mark a certain group of people (Christians in last 20 centuries period) like/such as the Bible Students, that they can in no way be Witnesses for the true God  YHVH.

[Srecko Sostar]

14 hours ago, Thinking said:

….but I dont know that we have ever said we do not beleive what Bible students once believed…??

Apologize, but it doesn't even need to be said in such clear words.

It is enough to observe a change in doctrines so it can easily be concluded that JWs do not believe in many things that were an integral part of the beliefs of their predecessors (no matter of their name). In any period of time from the first apostles of Jesus to the present day. (
Moreover, JWs do not even believe in those doctrines that have recently been an integral part of “true worship” (I’m talking about periods from a few months to a few years back, even not need to go in past decades). Jesus ’apostles expected the establishment of the Kingdom durin their lifetime. JWs today claim they (apostles) had the wrong expectations. So JW today reject, apostolic, their then faith, their belief system on the matter).

Keep in mind one more thing about this issue, please nicely. Has it ever been said in WTJWorg literature in the last 50 or more years that “new light” came into the world because JW believed that “old light” was a false teaching? But the JWs stopped believing in “their own old light” (not only in the "light" of Bible Students).

So if JWs are willing to reject, to stop believing in their own "biblically established beliefs" then it will be even easier for them to abandon the beliefs of Bible Students.

Simple.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, Dmitar said:

However, I wasn't aware. @Srecko Sostarneeded a handler, and he is unable to speak for himself like a child. I was unaware of your conditions here. I didn't know Jehovah's Witnesses "defend" former members that disparage this institution by intentional bad reports. You can continue with your quarrelsome endeavor like a boss, just not mine.

You should not react like that to the "defeat" you have experienced. @JW Insider defends the facts, not me. But I am glad that he understood my comments and found time to find excerpts from the WT literature that indicate the thing we were talking about.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Since Srecko was talking about the continuity of the teachings of the Watchtower Society he appears to have meant this idea in much the same way that the Watchtower means it when it uses some of the following types of expressions, and these are just a few examples out of many more:

Yes perhps your Watchtower writers pretend that it was all smooth sailing from Russell right through.

I can honestly say that I was never taught anything about the big divisions from Bible Students, or about how many disliked Rutherford.  

And as Dmitar seems to have made clear Russell did not want an Organisation and probably opposed it. 

Tell me though with Russell from the beginning, wasn't it about money ? What i mean is only those that 'put in' a certain amount of money got to be on the 'board of directors' / bosses. Not exactly a spiritual start was it ?

So much mud stuck to the JW Org it's no wonder it is sinking.  

 

[Dmitar]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You should not react like that to the "defeat" you have experienced. @JW Insider defends the facts, not me.

Can you explain what defeat you are referring to by a person that harbors animosity to the truth? That just proves that person's weakness. When you're ready to continue the conversation on your own accord and not be treated like a child that daddy needs to step in when you contact that person for desperate help, I'll be happy to move forward.

It also doesn't answer my question, when Jehovah's Witnesses celebrated Christmas. I assume, since your own "proof" was with a Christmas party in New York by the Bible Students, then I assume you will show me proof of a Christmas party by Jehovah's Witnesses in New York.

If you can't, that's okay. We all make mistakes at times. It takes a big person to admit, mistakes and not be "weak-minded" when a person can't. That's the difference between intentional and unintentional.

I hope you understand your own words and actions, as I don't need bad reports by a revisionist to suit that person's personal conclusions. Most of that person's post has been debunked by my latest post. So, don't hold your head up high, that person proved nothing. That person is as weak with his own institution's history, and much less with the Bible Student history.

[Dmitar]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Although I have not read in detail every Charter that has been published by WTBTS, from what I have observed in these texts, there is little more than just the printing business itself. The charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon for people. 

I will use the words of Pearl Doxsey. If there needs to be a clarification after my thought, then please do so.

This society did not become the central authority of the Bible Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau".

Are you referring to now or then? After 1931. The organization moved to a different bible understanding, from the Bible Student's core doctrine. Even before Pastor Russell's death, a transition had started. Therefore, when you state, "the charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon to people" then you have to break it down to what point in time.

In the Bible Students era, the churches were that beacon. For the most part of the Bible Student era, The Watchtower was "just" a publishing house, regardless how hard revisionist attempt to claim otherwise. That's their bad report truth.

[Dmitar]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If we start from a simple formula in which today's JWs claim that YHVH has always had its Witnesses on this planet, which we can call Jehovah's Witnesses or Witnesses for Jehovah or otherwise, then Yes, one type of Jehovah's Witnesses celebrated Christmas at a time in the past.

Can you expand on your thought here? Since there has been a witness to Jehovah's support by visible deeds, there has been a witness of Jehovah throughout man's existence. Would that exclude or prevent a church from being acquired for  God's namesake? What would be determinantal is, if people within that institution defile that church of God's namesake for their own selfish reasons.

Therefore, are you debating if a church or institution shouldn't use the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If one wants to deny this, then one should make some facts or provable claims that could mark a certain group of people (Christians in last 20 centuries period) like/such as the Bible Students, that they can in no way be Witnesses for the true God  YHVH.

Once again, can you clarify? Are you indicating, there should be some kind of physical evidence like in the times of Christ, in order for people to believe? History shows up until the late 19th century, Christendom had not given it much thought in our lord and savior's mission and expectation. They profaned his name and his sacrifice. Personal salvation was perverted to their means, not God's.

[Dmitar]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is enough to observe a change in doctrines so it can easily be concluded that JWs do not believe in many things that were an integral part of the beliefs of their predecessors (no matter of their name). In any period of time from the first apostles of Jesus to the present day.

Here, you need to be more specific. Jehovah's Witnesses humbly accepted some of Pastor Russell’s vision of seeking the first century truth. You cannot clump Pastor Russell's personal contribution as a Bible Student with "all" of the independent Bible Student Association. Even "stubborn" Jehovah's witnesses have a hard time making that separation and include "all" the Bible students to be the same. That's wrong coming from, stubborn revisionist.

[Thinking]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Apologize, but it doesn't even need to be said in such clear words.

It is enough to observe a change in doctrines so it can easily be concluded that JWs do not believe in many things that were an integral part of the beliefs of their predecessors (no matter of their name). In any period of time from the first apostles of Jesus to the present day. (
Moreover, JWs do not even believe in those doctrines that have recently been an integral part of “true worship” (I’m talking about periods from a few months to a few years back, even not need to go in past decades). Jesus ’apostles expected the establishment of the Kingdom durin their lifetime. JWs today claim they (apostles) had the wrong expectations. So JW today reject, apostolic, their then faith, their belief system on the matter).

Keep in mind one more thing about this issue, please nicely. Has it ever been said in WTJWorg literature in the last 50 or more years that “new light” came into the world because JW believed that “old light” was a false teaching? But the JWs stopped believing in “their own old light” (not only in the "light" of Bible Students).

So if JWs are willing to reject, to stop believing in their own "biblically established beliefs" then it will be even easier for them to abandon the beliefs of Bible Students.

Simple.

 

Okay….nicely …..🙃..your both wrong and right…off course we beleive in the basic doctrines of what Russell understood from the scriptures and corrected….

…Gods kingdom plan…

no trinity..

dead do not go to heaven..

the grave is hell…

Jesus king of the Kingdom which he will hand back to his father when perfection has been achieved..

Having no part of the world.

..the 144,000 anointed are the first resurrection and will rule as kings alongside Jesus…

there will be a great crowd who survive the tribulation.

the soul is man in the flesh…

we are awaiting Judgement day of a thousand years and the great resurrection over which Jesus will rule and organise….

How to pray…

Those who do Not take the mark of the beast will be saved…faith in Jesus and baptism..

the preaching work must be done  before the end

Satan is a fallen angel with followers who rules the world at this time.

As far as us changing thoughts..off course we have….Russell distributed food at the proper time..and it seems only at sufficient amounts that the world could consume at that time…he was fed gradually just as the apostles were fed.

yes you are right about the new light and old light stuff…I’m not going to defend that…how can I !!,

We have had good changes…and bad changes..some which then got changed back to what Russell first thought…and other changes that had to be changed because Russell had it wrong…

We have had men go beyond the written word and put in their own interpretations….types and anti types..etc..and they have had to be acknowledged….we had to acknowledge and correct policies…we still dont have everything right and nor will we get it all right….and we will all hold a accounting  before Jehovah…

You know ….if I had been Uriah’s mother …I would have absolutely hated and despised with the greatest of loathing King David……I would have wanted ..no…I would have demanded him stoned to death as The Law stated….in my pain and grief…….now where do you think my righteous anger and my right-full demanding of justice would have left Jehovah’s great plan…..and that is what you are missing …..you are lacking the understanding  of what Jehovah will put up with to accomplish  his plan….and also his depth of mercy…

So you and others come on forums and tear down..at times rightfully so…at times blatantly wrong…you really dont understand what you are doing because you see thru your eyes…mere human eyes…..thus incapable as to trying to see it thru Jehovah’s eyes of understanding …you cannot even work it out by the patterns laid out in the scriptures of how Jehovah’s people act and how he treats them.

Five or six years ago a brother from bethel stated at an assembly that they were aware there  were a lot of things wrong with the organization and they were trying to fix them but he didnt think they would be able to correct everything before the end…

They Know Sereko..and Jehovah knows….now it’s time to trust in Jehovah…or do you think Jehovah cannot control his people…whom ever they are?

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I will use the words of Pearl Doxsey. If there needs to be a clarification after my thought, then please do so.

This society did not become the central authority of the Bible Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau".

Are you referring to now or then? After 1931. The organization moved to a different bible understanding, from the Bible Student's core doctrine. Even before Pastor Russell's death, a transition had started. Therefore, when you state, "the charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon to people" then you have to break it down to what point in time.

In the Bible Students era, the churches were that beacon. For the most part of the Bible Student era, The Watchtower was "just" a publishing house, regardless how hard revisionist attempt to claim otherwise. That's their bad report truth.

If we believe that people are sincere in their intentions, at least in the beginning of their activities, then we can believe in the good intentions of Russell and the then Autonomous Assemblies. I suppose the “movement” begins in a way that the people within it have a more liberal position.

Than when the “movement” ceases to be a mere movement against the established Church institution that led to the gathering of people in the Bible Students formation.

In time, it became clear that these independent groups of people should be kept together, in a uniform manner, if they wanted to maintain the specific direction. On the other hand, this uniformity and striving for unity easily becomes institutionalized and organized like those of other institutions that caused the BS Movement to emerge. 

The existence of a class of elders (and an extra class of FDS with its Helpers) and those who are not, in today’s JW assemblies has brought WTJWorg closer to the Catholic Church hierarchy against which JW preaches. A Catholic priest talks about hell, and a JW priest talks about Armageddon. Theology differs but the authoritative position of both is the same. 

An administrative breakpoint could be found, and you mentioned some date about it.  The breaking point is just the culmination of the onset of dissatisfaction in people who worked on making change happen in a period of time before the change was announced in public. WTBTS continued to make administrative changes after Rutherford. 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you expand on your thought here? Since there has been a witness to Jehovah's support by visible deeds, there has been a witness of Jehovah throughout man's existence. Would that exclude or prevent a church from being acquired for  God's namesake? What would be determinantal is, if people within that institution defile that church of God's namesake for their own selfish reasons.

Therefore, are you debating if a church or institution shouldn't use the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am just saying that it was in the past and today there are people who can be considered Witnesses for YHVH, and whose status before God is their own or our interpretation.

 

[Dmitar]

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If we believe that people are sincere in their intentions, at least in the beginning of their activities, then we can believe in the good intentions of Russell and the then Autonomous Assemblies. I suppose the “movement” begins in a way that the people within it have a more liberal position.

Under today's logic of liberal or conservative, Russell, built his own constitution. This is why the Institution, of today, appreciate Russell's contribution. Once again, there are bad actors in the Jehovah's Witnesses institution that stubbornly continue with their bad reports.

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Than when the “movement” ceases to be a mere movement against the established Church institution that led to the gathering of people in the Bible Students formation.

Do you believe, there still exist, Crusaders? 

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In time, it became clear that these independent groups of people should be kept together, in a uniform manner, if they wanted to maintain the specific direction. On the other hand, this uniformity and striving for unity easily becomes institutionalized and organized like those of other institutions that caused the BS Movement to emerge. 

While the churches continue to be independent with elected Elders, in spirit they claim unity. There was a time when one Bible Student church tried to unite Most all Christian faiths, but it failed. Do Bible Students still hold conventions? YES! They do. Can they be seen as an institution? Yes they can, but only to the observer, not the churches.

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The existence of a class of elders (and an extra class of FDS with its Helpers) and those who are not, in today’s JW assemblies has brought WTJWorg closer to the Catholic Church hierarchy against which JW preaches. A Catholic priest talks about hell, and a JW priest talks about Armageddon. Theology differs but the authoritative position of both is the same. 

This reminds me of a discourse in a Bible Student convention of 1998 I believe. The speaker thought the same way. However, other sects were included, not just the Catholic. Just don't tell the Pope that, he has enough fathers in Central America complaining they're losing ground to the Jehovah's Witnesses institution. 

It appears, those Jehovah’s Witnesses are more spiritually dedicated than those here in the USA, and here in this site. They take their appointment seriously, not as a punchline for a bad report, just to make themselves feel good by defending each other as bad actors. But, this is what Satan what's right!

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

An administrative breakpoint could be found, and you mentioned some date about it.  The breaking point is just the culmination of the onset of dissatisfaction in people who worked on making change happen in a period of time before the change was announced in public. WTBTS continued to make administrative changes after Rutherford. 

There have been many sweeps within that institution over the decades. Not just to clarify certain things, but to remove bad actors. However, yes, when the main office took over, it was no longer just a publishing house, it became the headquarters.