THE WATCHTOWER HISTORY OF GOG OF MAGOG

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

So you and others come on forums and tear down..at times rightfully so…at times blatantly wrong…you really dont understand what you are doing because you see thru your eyes…mere human eyes…..thus incapable as to trying to see it thru Jehovah’s eyes of understanding …you cannot even work it out by the patterns laid out in the scriptures of how Jehovah’s people act and how he treats them.

Five or six years ago a brother from bethel stated at an assembly that they were aware there  were a lot of things wrong with the organization and they were trying to fix them but he didnt think they would be able to correct everything before the end…

They Know Sereko..and Jehovah knows….now it’s time to trust in Jehovah…or do you think Jehovah cannot control his people…whom ever they are?

Thanks for the extended comment.

You mention looking through "human eyes" and through "God's eyes". I fear that the assurances that man can look through the “eyes of God” will lead us nowhere. Looking at the spiritual is connected with faith. And faith is a personal feeling and state of mind. I think it is not necessary to go further in explaining what our beliefs bring to us, because it is a part of our everyday life that provides material evidence of the faith of individuals and organizations.

Iinteresting, it is a constantly unclear state of what an organization is and what believers are within an organization. That betel member talks about a lot of bad things in the organization, you said. What does he mean? Does he mean the legal aspect of a company that has poor corporate regulation? Or does he mean people who are responsible persons and represent a legal entity in a broad conglomerate of a multitude of different legal bodies that have been legalized before the authorities? Does he mean the spiritual or some other condition of the believers who are members of the organization? .... etc.

It is not clear to me what this is supposed to mean: God and the control of his people.
What kind of control is this? People want to have control over people. So does God want to have control over people too? If he lets go of Armageddon then he will gain some control over events. But I don't think he will ever have control over people.  

[Dmitar]

25 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am just saying that it was in the past and today there are people who can be considered Witnesses for YHVH, and whose status before God is their own or our interpretation.

Are you saying, anyone in the world can be a Witness of Jehovah without following Christ and God's Commands written in the bible, the book of knowledge?

A competent Christian needs to adhere to the letter of God's laws. I see very little of that within Christendom. Since Christendom rejects the Jehovah's Witnesses rightful place in Christianity, then, true Christians would have to follow the lead of that institution. However, they would have to be proven worthy upon baptism, and those that defile that baptism for their own selfish gains and understanding, would wish they hadn't angered God that way.

I believe there was a discussion in that institution study material recently, dealing with reproach and God's anger.

[Dmitar]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is not clear to me what this is supposed to mean: God and the control of his people.
What kind of control is this? People want to have control over people. So does God want to have control over people too? If he lets go of Armageddon then he will gain some control over events. But I don't think he will ever have control over people.

 

I like your questions here since it's clear, we are dealing with bad actors of a faith. That can be troubling when seeking wisdom. 

The perversion of the moral law
    
(2) Now for the man who is in this state of mind, the law, in itself good, becomes a minister of death and not of life. It has killed out the lower life and happiness, and yet it has not borne to the blessedness of the life of the spirit. There are many people who would have been far happier as animals than as men; and better to be a mere animal, with the animal's untroubled satisfaction, better to be a creature without reason and conscience, if reason and conscience cannot control your life, for then you would be no longer humiliated by the ever-recurring feeling that you cannot keep out of degradation; then you would be free to revel in the lusts of the flesh without one pang of remorse.
 

Enjoy your Day Srecko!

[Srecko Sostar]

9 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Are you saying, anyone in the world can be a Witness of Jehovah without following Christ and God's Commands written in the bible, the book of knowledge?

Please look, what was the ancient nation of Israel, for example (not to mention Abel as first witness and period of Moses and formation of nation)? Well they were Witnesses for YHVH, right? I guess that's how they felt and how God wanted to be. And they were not Christians.  

[Dmitar]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Please look, what was the ancient nation of Israel, for example (not to mention Abel as first witness and period of Moses and formation of nation)? Well they were Witnesses for YHVH, right? I guess that's how they felt and how God wanted to be. And they were not Christians.

Correct. They were not Christians. However, they were an affront to God as a nation, and Abel was a victim of man's imperfection. God wanted man to remain in his perfect state. It was a choice of free will. If God simply wanted compliance, he would have made robots.

AMP Gal 3:10

10 And all who depend on the Law [who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals] are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed (accursed, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment) be everyone who does not continue to abide (live and remain) by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law and to practice them. 

Now think about Genesis 6:6. What made God have faith in man? 
 

Since the natural Jew perverted the nation of Israel, what can be said about Christ sacrifice, that "refined" (Revised) the Jewish nation? Did Jesus promote Judaism? Does scripture specifically say the Nation of Israel is still God's top priority even after they killed his son? How about Paul?

SABBATH
"When Gentiles were admitted into the church, the question at once arose whether they should be required to keep the Law of Moses. It is the glory of Paul that he fought for and won freedom for his Gentile fellow-Christians. It is significant of the attitude of the apostles that the decrees of the Council at Jerusalem made no mention of Sabbath observance in the requirements laid upon Gentile Christians (Acts 15:28 f). Paul boldly contended that believers in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile, were set free from the burdens of the Mosaic Law. Even circumcision counted for nothing, now that men were saved by believing in Jesus (Gal 5:6). Christian liberty as proclaimed by Paul included all days and seasons. A man could observe special days or not, just as his own judgment and conscience might dictate (Rom 14:5 f); but in all such matters one ought to be careful not to put a stumbling block in a brother's way (Rom 14:13 ff). That Paul contended for personal freedom in respect of the Sabbath is made quite clear in Col 2:16 f, where he groups together dietary laws, feast days, new moons and sabbaths."

That means every Christian, regardless of its denomination, needs to adhere to the letter of God's law set forth by the book of knowledge. The book is specific, and no man can challenge God's will.
 

 

[Witness]

14 hours ago, Thinking said:

So you and others come on forums and tear down..at times rightfully so…at times blatantly wrong…you really dont understand what you are doing because you see thru your eyes…mere human eyes…..thus incapable as to trying to see it thru Jehovah’s eyes of understanding …you cannot even work it out by the patterns laid out in the scriptures of how Jehovah’s people act and how he treats them.

Among Israel, there were many more bad kings than there were good ones.  When the bad kings ruled, idolatry and the sins of the people prevented God from protecting them.  There were false prophets who misled the people, and God would say, "don't listen to them".  (Jer 23:16)  The organization's leadership, expect each JW to listen to them, even if their have taught a lie for years.  Their word wields more power over JWs, than the advice, the warning, the words of God and His Son.  The people suffered when the rulership became domineering, abusive, breaking their covenant with God which required obedience to His laws.  Only remnants of repentant ones, who realized their sins and called out to God for help, were taken back with open arms.  That cannot be translated into "apostates" returning to an organization that has told lies from the beginning. 

The Wt's "kings" who rule over 8 million people, are domineering, abusive, and have broken their covenant with God by instituting man-made rules necessary for  the operation of an organization.  That is the same pattern that has occurred in the scriptures.  God's full laws in Christ have been broken by the insertion of just one of the Wt's many doctrines of men. Doctrines that are forever changing and are never to be found correct.  They have added and taken away from the word of God and JWs tolerate it.

No, God does not allow His Spirit to bless a people who reject the teachings of Jesus Christ, and condone the teachings of men.  Although they may speak of them, the leadership has rejected God and His Son.  When the nation of Israel was sinning and committing idolatry, out of one side of their mouth, they would also praise God.  That didn't go well in Elijah's day.  (1 Kings 18:21)

1 Sam 8 - 

So all the elders of Israel gathered together and went to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Therefore, appoint a king to judge us the same as all the other nations have.”

6 When they said, “Give us a king to judge us,” Samuel considered their demand wrong, so he prayed to the Lord. 7 But the Lord told him, “Listen to the people and everything they say to you. They have not rejected you; they have rejected Me as their King. 8 They are doing the same thing to you that they have done to me, since the day I brought them out of Egypt until this day, abandoning Me and worshiping other gods. 9 Listen to them, but solemnly warn them and tell them about the customary rights of the king who will reign over them.”

10 Samuel told all the Lord’s words to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “These are the rights of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and put them to his use in his chariots, on his horses, or running in front of his chariots. 12 He can appoint them for his use as commanders of thousands or commanders of fifties, to plow his ground and reap his harvest, or to make his weapons of war and the equipment for his chariots. 13 He can take your daughters to become perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 He can take your best fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He can take a tenth of your grain and your vineyards and give them to his officials and servants. 16 He can take your male servants, your female servants, your best cattle,[b] and your donkeys and use them for his work. 17 He can take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves can become his servants. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king you’ve chosen for yourselves, but the Lord won’t answer you on that day.”

19 The people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We must have a king over us. 20 Then we’ll be like all the other nations: our king will judge us, go out before us, and fight our battles.”

21 Samuel listened to all the people’s words and then repeated them to the Lord. 22 “Listen to them,” the Lord told Samuel. “Appoint a king for them.”

 

 

 

[Dmitar]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

Among Israel, there were many more bad kings than there were good ones.  When the bad kings ruled, idolatry and the sins of the people prevented God from protecting them.  There were false prophets who misled the people, and God would say, "don't listen to them".  (Jer 23:16)  The organization's leadership, expect each JW to listen to them, even if their have taught a lie for years.  Their word wields more power over JWs, than the advice, the warning, the words of God and His Son.  The people suffered when the rulership became domineering, abusive, breaking their covenant with God which required obedience to His laws.  Only remnants of repentant ones, who realized their sins and called out to God for help, were taken back with open arms.  That cannot be translated into "apostates" returning to an organization that has told lies from the beginning. 

Since Pearl Doxsey is in the same position you are expressing as a judge, why wouldn't this apply to you and other sects in Christendom?

AMP: 2 Chron 19:6

6 And said to the judges, Be careful what you do, for you judge not for man but for the Lord, and He is with you in the matter of judgment. 

AMP: 2 Chron 19:10

10 Whenever any controversy shall come to you from your brethren who dwell in their cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, you shall warn and instruct them that they may not be guilty before the Lord; otherwise wrath will come upon you and your brethren. Do this and you will not be guilty. 

 

[Thinking]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:53 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

If we believe that people are sincere in their intentions, at least in the beginning of their activities, then we can believe in the good intentions of Russell and the then Autonomous Assemblies. I suppose the “movement” begins in a way that the people within it have a more liberal position.

Than when the “movement” ceases to be a mere movement against the established Church institution that led to the gathering of people in the Bible Students formation.

In time, it became clear that these independent groups of people should be kept together, in a uniform manner, if they wanted to maintain the specific direction. On the other hand, this uniformity and striving for unity easily becomes institutionalized and organized like those of other institutions that caused the BS Movement to emerge. 

The existence of a class of elders (and an extra class of FDS with its Helpers) and those who are not, in today’s JW assemblies has brought WTJWorg closer to the Catholic Church hierarchy against which JW preaches. A Catholic priest talks about hell, and a JW priest talks about Armageddon. Theology differs but the authoritative position of both is the same. 

An administrative breakpoint could be found, and you mentioned some date about it.  The breaking point is just the culmination of the onset of dissatisfaction in people who worked on making change happen in a period of time before the change was announced in public. WTBTS continued to make administrative changes after Rutherford. 

No the Catholic Church hierarchy..copied to a point the Christian’s hierarchy or order directed by Holy Spirit… .Just the same as The Babylon religions copied the Jewish heirachy and rituals directed by Holy Spirit  to an uncanny degree …..Satan mimicking  Jehovahs rituals to a tea…..

as a people have we been too authoritarian…to dogmatic at times…yes…

Just like Moses going mad at the people when he had no right…

Too right we made administrative changes after Rutherford…we needed too…..

 

….

[Dmitar]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

as a people have we been too authoritarian…to dogmatic at times…yes…

How does this statement justify how Jesus and the apostles dealt with their everyday life of preaching the gospel? Don't influence the readers by your inaccurate depiction of bad Christian life. There is a difference between being actively zealous and being overbearing. Overbearing is a Christian that give bad reports constantly and is consistent with that message. Then you can say, that person is being too dogmatic.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

as a people have we been too authoritarian…to dogmatic at times…yes…

How does this statement justify how Jesus and the apostles dealt with their everyday life of preaching the gospel? Don't influence the readers by your inaccurate depiction of bad Christian life.

How many "judicial commissions" did Jesus attend or preside over? And in situations where he was a judge, he did the job alone without two or three other elders. This is also sort of description about Christian life and influence some readers.

What is bad about @Thinking's resume and perception? 

[Dmitar]

43 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How many "judicial commissions" did Jesus attend or preside over? And in situations where he was a judge, he did the job alone without two or three other elders. This is also sort of description about Christian life and influence some readers.

Can you expand? Are you saying you would have preferred Jesus become King on earth? 

What part of scripture gives you the most difficulty?

NIV Matt 16:21-23

21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Do you think Jesus rebuking Peter wasn't a judgment call? If so, why do you think it wasn't.

51 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is bad about @Thinking's resume and perception? 

As your defense of a Jehovah's Witness, or as a perspective view from a former Jehovah's Witness?

NIV Rev 3:19-22

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

 

Revelation 3:19

[Be zealous therefore, and repent] Be earnest, strenuous, ardent in your purpose to exercise true repentance, and to turn from the error of your ways. Lose no time; spare no labor, that you may obtain such a state of mind that it shall not be necessary to bring upon you the severe discipline which always comes on those who continue lukewarm in religion. The truth taught here is, that when the professed followers of Christ have become lukewarm in his service, they should lose no time in returning to him, anti seeking his favor again. As sure as he has any true love for them, if this is not done he will bring upon them some heavy calamity, alike to rebuke them for their errors, and to recover them to himself.

 

[Pudgy]

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How many "judicial commissions" did Jesus attend or preside over? And in situations where he was a judge, he did the job alone without two or three other elders. This is also sort of description about Christian life and influence some readers.

What is bad about @Thinking's resume and perception? 

There is a lot that we do not know about Jesus and the apostles, I think somewhere it says something about if everything was written about Jesus the world cannot hold all the books…… Which may have been an exaggeration, an allusion,  or something.

We don’t know if Jesus was a framing carpenter, a finish carpenter, he worked on remodeling projects, or he built furniture etc., things like bookcases and chairs and sofas, and so forth.

There’s even some suggestion that the word for “carpenter” is actually technician , And not carpenter, so he may have been a technician of some sort, perhaps even a blacksmith or something.

There’s even some suggestion that even though most of the apostles were fishermen, they supplied fish to the local restaurants and these restaurants served both gentiles and Jews as well as fish and lobsters and clams.

Both gentiles and Jews as well as fish and lobsters and clams.

get it?

It’s very heartwarming to think that there was no discrimination between the five.