THE WATCHTOWER HISTORY OF GOG OF MAGOG

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The point being that nobody present misunderstood that Christ was the actual leader of the congregation.

But if that were true today there would not be so many man made rules.

In fact if it had been true then, the Superior Authorities scripture would not have been misused to control the congregation. 

Oh how those 'sheep' must have been so easily misled by those wolves. And still are today by 8 wolves. 

[Dmitar]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also keep in mind that in my comments on Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses, I have always had in mind one common link that has always connected them, regardless of the individuals who have later sided with this or that schism. Continuity of WTBTS.

You seem to forget, the WTBTS was just a publishing company, that later was incorporated. Before that, Pastor Russell's tabernacle was the People's Pulpit. So, no! The publishing house was just a means to print material.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

All those who remained faithful to their "spiritual mother", the so-called "earthly organization" or WTBTS Company, regardless of changes in external name / label are proof that all beliefs, past or present, are what binds them together. They have common legacy.

Since I provided an insert of an article that disproves your words, Bible Students are not bound by Jehovah's Witnesses theology and vise versa. Therefore, Pastor Russell's legacy was his own. Joseph Rutherford's legacy was his own, and Jehovah's Witnesses legacy are their own. Yes, They are appreciative for Pastor's Russell's humble beginnings in wanting to understand scripture the right way, and yes, he had a long ways to go, but what do people expect if the man started from scratch. Many denominations were attempting to escape the bad reports Christendom was providing. Russell refused to get caught up on that. Did God's Holy Spirit intervene? I would say YES!

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That’s why the claim how JWs once celebrated Christmas is correct. Because today's JWs who do not celebrate Christmas any more are members of the same Organization under whose auspices and authority Christmas was celebrated in the past.

This is why, you make a bad report about the Watchtower's past. Did the Bible Students celebrate Christmas in the past? YES! Did Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate Christmas in the past? NO! There is a difference between the year 1927 to that of 1931. However, you're free to think the way you wish.

"The author makes the mistake many often make of saying that Charles Taze Russell was the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyone who is truly familiar with the works of Russell would know that he never advocated such an organization. He actually preached against such an organization, and he also preached against the kind of message that the Jehovah's Witnesses present. He was definitely not the founder of that in which he did not believe, and which he preached against. "

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

You seem to forget, the WTBTS was just a publishing company, that later was incorporated. Before that, Pastor Russell's tabernacle was the People's Pulpit. So, no! The publishing house was just a means to print material.

This history is all very interesting. But it's too easy to make statements that aren't exactly accurate, even though you are making them for the good purpose of counteracting someone else's statements that are inaccurate in another way.

For example, your quoted statement above would appear to be "off" a bit, highly oversimplified. At least, that is, if you trust the WTS wording of the charter of the original WTBTS (of PA) and compare it with the charter of the People's Pulpit (which was renamed the WTBTS of New York). The WTS also said that the initial purpose of the Peoples Pulpit was simply to own property in NY, which wasn't covered under the charter of the WTBTS of Pennsylvania.

Most people don't have the time or desire to look into any of these matters too deeply, so it's good not to oversimplify too much when trying to make a point about the technical differences and relationships between Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses.

If one wanted to be even more technical, Rutherford never believed it was right to speak of the "great crowd" of "other sheep" as Jehovah's Witnesses. After all, initially at least, they were "fools."

The “great multitude” class ... have been fools, and so called by the Scriptures, ... These claim to be the people of God and convince themselves that they are; but they are foolish. (WT 10/15/1931 p.311)

At that time the . . . “other sheep” were not considered to be “Jehovah’s witnesses.”—See The Watchtower, August 15, 1934 ... (WT 2/15/1966 p.120)

Even in 1931, the Great Crowd was still considered a heavenly class who would not come through the great tribulation, but would have to die, and be resurrected as spirit beings. The WT "proved" this from Revelation 7:14. They were to be a class of heavenly beings but lower than the "little flock" because they had been negligent of their consecration and lost out on the higher calling.

The “great multitude” or “tribulation” class ... will not be spared in the great time of
trouble, but, on the contrary, they are appointed to die; . . . they will fall. (Zech. 14: 2) They will not be carried through the time of trouble. They will be forced into the time of trouble . . . but must die in order to live as spirit creatures. (WT 9/1/1931 p.262)

In 1934, the "remnant" who were the only ones called "Jehovah's WItnesses" would survive Armageddon, but the "great multitude" would NOT survive Armageddon, although the Jonadab class would survive.

The faithful remnant . . .will survive Armageddon. ... The “great multitude” ["great crowd"] will not survive Armageddon, ... God’s promise is to preserve a remnant, and not a vast multitude. The “great multitude” are appointed to die. The Scriptures also show that the Jonadab class will survive Armageddon. (WT 3/15/1934 p.92)

Today, of course, the Jonadab class is understood to have been the great multitude, who WILL survive Armageddon, and it's now the faithful remnant who will NOT survive Armageddon as humans (per recent information repeated at the Annual Meeting by Brother Herd).

It was in August 1935 when the Jonadabs became the Great Crowd (great multitude), but were still not counted as Jehovah's Witnesses. They had been specifically told in the WT that they were not even invited to attend the Memorial celebration because they were not Jehovah's Witnesses. (Finally invited in 1938.) They weren't even considered members of the organization because they did not bear the "official name."

Those who form the great multitude are appointed to places of service in the Lord’s organization although they are not members of the organization. (WT 8/15/1937 p.239)

But it wasn't until well after Rutherford died, when the January 15, 1946 Watchtower finally included the "other sheep" as "Jehovah's Witnesses."

Just saying there are a lot of nuances in the transition of beliefs (and naming conventions) during the times of Russell, Rutherford and Knorr/Franz.

[Dmitar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This history is all very interesting. But it's too easy to make statements that aren't exactly accurate, even though you are making them for the good purpose of counteracting someone else's statements that are inaccurate in another way.

This would depend on how someone views the past. I have seen many "intentional" bad reports about the Watchtower History.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

For example, your quoted statement above would appear to be "off" a bit, highly oversimplified. At least, that is, if you trust the WTS wording of the charter of the original WTBTS (of PA) and compare it with the charter of the People's Pulpit (which was renamed the WTBTS of New York). The WTS also said that the initial purpose of the Peoples Pulpit was simply to own property in NY, which wasn't covered under the charter of the WTBTS of Pennsylvania.

I didn't know I was required to be very specific. This is why I suggested the incorporation. However, me and @Srecko Sostar are talking about Jehovah's Witnesses being the same because of the Watchtower publishing as the Bible Students.

Do you agree with @Srecko Sostar that Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas?

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Most people don't have the time or desire to look into any of these matters too deeply, so it's good not to oversimplify too much when trying to make a point about the technical differences and relationships between Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Since you appear to want to get involved to criticize my view, can you give me an example on how Bible Students "are" Jehovah's witnesses? Especially, when Bible Students want nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses theology?

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If one wanted to be even more technical, Rutherford never believed it was right to speak of the "great crowd" of "other sheep" as Jehovah's Witnesses. After all, initially at least, they were "fools."

This is why his theology was his own. How does this have any relation with the question raised by @Srecko Sostar?

If you want to quarrel about the Bible Student era, and want to be specific about their theology, why not start a new topic, and you can argue with others. There's a difference between an "unintentional" report to that of an "intentional" bad report.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But it wasn't until well after Rutherford died, when the January 15, 1946 Watchtower finally included the "other sheep" as "Jehovah's Witnesses."

Personally, studying that institution, I find the real core theology started in 1950. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just saying there are a lot of nuances in the transition of beliefs (and naming conventions) during the times of Russell, Rutherford and Knorr/Franz.

I'm sure there is. I'm trying very hard to keep one subject at a time. Once again, if you wish to disparage the Bible Student era, that's your right. I don't find it a need to quarrel, what your conflict is with the Bible Student Association as a Jehovah's Witness. 

I can ask the same of them, why they disparage the Jehovah's witnesses?

Likewise, I will ask you, why don't you involve yourself with other commentators and their bad reports, since you found it a need to comment about mine?

[Thinking]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I vaguely recall it too. Yes, I think the wording might be wrong. If memory serves (it may not) I think he was saying something to the effect, ‘Does anyone here thing Joseph F Rutherford is the leader of Jehovah’s Witnesses?’ to which the reply was a loud, NO.  The point being that nobody present misunderstood that Christ was the actual leader of the congregation.

Yeah that sounds more like it…my old memory constantly needs prodding and readjustment..thanks for that 

 

[Thinking]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Today’s JWs can defend themselves by claiming that they do not believe what Bible Students once believed, and that therefore it is not their past and legacy.

Can you explain this?…it’s a messy statement…and not really true…rather misleading actually…from what I’ve read they couldn’t go along with some of the changes Rutherford  brought In…the one I’m thinking about is how he changed the understanding of the ARK representing Jesus ransom…to the earthly organization…and who can blame them for that…because that one thing led to a fair bit  of dogmatism..and heavy handiness ….and was so totally wrong…..so I do get why they with drew away from what Rutherford was pushing….but I dont know that we have ever said we do not beleive what Bible students once believed…??

I read an account of one JW who was not happy with what was happening with in the org so he went to the Bible students..a few different ones..but said he found the same problems within them as he had found with  us…

I like all Bible students…the ones I’ve talked with are kind and generous people doing the best they can….they seem a bit loose on pagan holidays…sometimes I think…wrongly or rightly they are caught in a time warp of Russell’s full teachings…not realizing he was just coming out of BTG and tho used by Jehovah very greatly..along with his associates of that time period ..he and they never had the time and the time was not right for a fuller understanding  of certain things…but he had a lot right..I admire him greatly…and I’m not saying we have everything right either…because we don’t!

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Yeah that sounds more like it…my old memory constantly needs prodding and readjustment..thanks for that 

Perhaps this is what you are referring to. I think, maybe I’m confusing where someone asked Rutherford if he was a Bible Student, not a Jehovah’s Witness. What you speak can be found in the 1941 St Louis Convention report and in The Jehovah’s Witnesses Proclaimers book.

The brethren appreciated the follow­ing: "I want to let any strangers here know what you think about a man being your leader, so they won’t be forgetting. Every time something rises up and start* to grow, they say there is some man a leader who has a great following. If there is any person in this audience who thinks that I, this man standing here, is the leader of Jehovah* witnesses, say Yes. [Not one said Yes.] If you who are here believe that I am just one of the servants of the Lord, and we are working shoulder to ‘shoulder in unity, serving God and serving Christ, say Yes." (A great shout of “Yes" followed.)

 

Unfortunately, human nature goes unchecked, and the impulse to criticize someone becomes a necessity to some that cannot conduct themselves as our lord and savior commanded, without compulsion.  It is evident with the remarks this one @JW Insider finds it necessary. Sometimes, in this institution,  leaders, especially one that has held a position of an Elder or Ministerial Servant, they don’t heed the spiritual advice of 1 Peter 5:1-3.

^ESV  1 Peter 5:2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; (1 Pet. 5:2 ESV)

I humbly accept this person’s ridicule even though it was unintentional, and I humbly apologized for it. Can that person say the same? However, thank you for your personal thought. It is greatly appreciated.

[JW Insider]

48 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

Do you agree with @Srecko Sostar that Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas?

Instead of acknowledging what Srecko is saying about continuity, you are treating it as if it's a trick question. Like asking if Muhammed Ali ever won a boxing match against Sonny Liston. The answer is yes and no. His name was Cassius Clay when he fought Sonny Liston. 

In the same way, yes, I know many Jehovah's Witnesses who celebrated Christmas before they were baptized, and I even knew a few Jehovah's Witnesses at Brooklyn Bethel who celebrated Christmas after they were baptized, but before they called themselves by the name Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, I was once in the same room with at least three of them where they had celebrated Christmas 49 years earlier. But I have never known any Witnesses who celebrated Christmas after they began calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses.

Since Srecko was talking about the continuity of the teachings of the Watchtower Society he appears to have meant this idea in much the same way that the Watchtower means it when it uses some of the following types of expressions, and these are just a few examples out of many more:

*** w98 9/15 p. 32 The War That Destroyed the 19th Century ***
For over 120 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to 1914 as the end of what Jesus called “the appointed times of the nations.”

*** w65 7/1 p. 394 par. 9 Plaguing the Modern “Egyptians” with Truth ***
While all seven annual messages sounded by Jehovah’s witnesses from 1922 to 1928 concluded with such appeals, it was particularly the Resolution of 1927, passed at their international assembly in Toronto, Canada, that highlighted this feature

*** w91 4/1 p. 7 Is It Later Than You Think? ***
Since 1914, however, Jehovah’s Witnesses have done that, in spite of the persecution Jesus foretold—government bans, mob violence, imprisonments, torture, and many deaths.
In 1919 there were 4,000 of Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching this good news.

*** w78 6/1 p. 23 par. 11 Co-Workers in the Harvest ***
In 1918 . . . the leading members of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses were railroaded off to the penitentiary for a 20-year imprisonment. In the eyes of their enemies they appeared as unburied corpses.

*** w83 2/15 p. 11 A Notable Annual Meeting ***
. L. A. Swingle reviewed the worldwide expansion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, from 3,868 publishers in 1918 to the more than 2,300,000 today.

*** w81 5/1 p. 17 par. 2 If God Has an Organization, What Is It? ***
At the same time, particularly since the year 1922, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been efficiently organized for fulfilling the prophecy of Jesus

*** w80 10/1 p. 28 par. 16 After These “Last Days” God’s Messianic Kingdom! ***
What Jehovah’s Witnesses have preached world wide since 1918 is something unique,

*** w09 5/1 p. 22 Brooklyn Bethel—100 Years of History ***
THE year 1909 was a momentous one . . . It was also a momentous year for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Earlier, Charles Taze Russell, president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, the legal arm of Jehovah’s Witnesses, had seen the potential for expanding the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom.

*** w01 1/15 p. 29 How the Governing Body Differs From a Legal Corporation ***
The International Bible Students Association is used in Britain [in 2001].

*** w01 1/15 p. 30 How the Governing Body Differs From a Legal Corporation ***
Especially noteworthy was 1931 when the Bible Students adopted the name Jehovah’s Witnesses.

*** w55 3/1 p. 141 Part 5—The Warning Work (1909-1914) ***
To hold this new property in New York state and to do business as a recognized religious body within this state it was necessary to form a New York corporation. Such corporation came into legal existence February 23, 1909, as decreed by New York Supreme Court Justice Isaac N. Miller. PEOPLES PULPIT ASSOCIATION was its name for thirty years. Then in 1939 that was legally changed to its present name, WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY, INC., similar to that of the Pennsylvania corporation, WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY.

[Dmitar]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Instead of acknowledging what Srecko is saying about continuity, you are treating it as if it's a trick question. Like asking if Muhammed Ali ever won a boxing match against Sonny Liston. The answer is yes and no. His name was Cassius Clay when he fought Sonny Liston. 

Then your impudence just wants to be argumentative. If you want to look for a dog to kick, look at @Pudgy. I will not engage in your quest for notoriety.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the same way, yes, I know many Jehovah's Witnesses who celebrated Christmas before they were baptized, and I even knew a few Jehovah's Witnesses at Brooklyn Bethel who celebrated Christmas after they were baptized, but before they called themselves by the name Jehovah's Witnesses.

Then you hung around with the wrong crowd if you contend you are a Jehovah's Witness. This statement just shows poor judgment in your part, and the right judgment in theirs. 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Since Srecko was talking about the continuity of the teachings of the Watchtower Society he appears to have meant this idea in much the same way that the Watchtower means it when it uses some of the following types of expressions, and these are just a few examples out of many more:

If you're going to be @Srecko Sostar mouth peace, I will not engage, since it appears you as a Jehovah's Witness has a big problem with your own institution. I like to discuss the true nature of an institution, not some imaginary conclusion from a haughty person. Since my conversations also include followup questions to make things clearer, your intervention is not needed.

However, I wasn't aware. @Srecko Sostarneeded a handler, and he is unable to speak for himself like a child. I was unaware of your conditions here. I didn't know Jehovah's Witnesses "defend" former members that disparage this institution by intentional bad reports. You can continue with your quarrelsome endeavor like a boss, just not mine.

[Dmitar]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

I like all Bible students…the ones I’ve talked with are kind and generous people doing the best they can

If it's not too insulting for you. Can I ask what independent branch of the Bible Students you frequent? It seems like a group outside the USA.

The ones I deal with are a lot more brazen.

TOO MANY DOORS
"To everything there is a season...A time to kill, and a time to heal;... A time of war, and a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8."

"This time things became personal. Tim knew that this appeal would mean an FBI investigation, but they really got nosy! The investigators even talked to Susie's Dad. That just about did it. Susie understood, but not Mr. Deaver. "If Dave has to go and risk his life," he told her, "you are a traitor by dating this snivelling coward of a conscientious objector. It's bad enough that he is one of those pesty Jehovah's Witnesses, but he's a yellow-bellied coward on top of it."

 

[Dmitar]

Pastor Russell Founded the Bible Students

"In 1870 at Allegheny, Pennsylvania, a Bible Class was formed for systematic Bible study. Soon they selected Charles Taze Russell as their Pastor. At that time other earnest Christians were forming independent Bible classes for in-depth Bible study. Pastor Russell became a leader of thought and activity among these congregations. In 1879 Zion’s Watch Tower was formed, later known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (not to be mistaken as Jehovah’s Witnesses). This society did not become the central authority of the Bible Student movement. It could not because all cooperating congregations of Bible Students held strictly to congregational self-government. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society was basically a publishing house and lecture bureau."

 

Pastor Russell vs. Jehovah’s Witnesses

"The main teaching of Pastor Russell was that Jesus died a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5,
6) Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jesus died only for some. Pastor Russell taught a future
probation because millions have died without hearing the Gospel. Even among many who
hear it, uncertainty and confusion exist. (John 5:28-29; Acts 15:14-17; Revelation 22:17)
Jehovah’s Witnesses, like all fundamentalists, believe that if you reject their brand of the
Gospel you are lost eternally.

Pastor Russell believed Bible prophecy taught that the Jewish people would be regathered
to the promised land and the State of Israel would be reborn. (Matthew 23:32; Ezekiel
37:1-14; Jeremiah 31:4-12) Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the regathering of the Jews
and the birth of the Israeli State is a change of history completely unrelated to Bible
prophecy."

Real Jehovah's Witnesses, A Glory to God

After the People of Israel, Jehovah's (actual) Witnesses, have been gathered back to the Land of Israel, God will be glorified in their example and leadership among the nations. "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory…" Isaiah 43:5-7
Then all peoples of all nations and customs, and cultures and religions -- (even the self-proclaimed JW's) -- will have to go up to Jerusalem to learn about the God of Jacob from the Jewish people….

1932

Associated Bible Students

In his public work, Bro. Russell used the corporate name International Bible Students Association, a name was applied to the classes (or, ecclesias) of Bible students. Earlier, the name Associated Bible Students had also been used by such groups. The organization [now known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses] continued to use the name International Bible Students Association for several years following the death of Bro. Russell. The groups which drew away from the organization have generally assumed the former name: Associated Bible Students, or in some cases, Berean Bible Students.
After his death the organization changed many of its teachings from those presented in Studies in the Scriptures and ceased to publish or distribute Bro. Russell’s writings. Many individuals held to their understanding of God’s word and withdrew their support from the organization at this time. Those who did so were the beginnings of the Associated Bible Students classes and who, as a whole, adhere closely to the views presented in Pastor Russell’s writings.

[Srecko Sostar]

22 hours ago, Dmitar said:

You seem to forget, the WTBTS was just a publishing company, that later was incorporated.

Although I have not read in detail every Charter that has been published by WTBTS, from what I have observed in these texts, there is little more than just the printing business itself. The charters give the impression that WTBTS wants to be a spiritual beacon for people.