New Light on Beards

[Pudgy]

That means they only have two years to find those abandoned Gold Mines, and the “mother lode”under their property in Ramapo, NY. for the planned Sterling Mine Road upgrades.

https://rcbizjournal.com/2022/09/29/watchtower-bible-world-headquarters-project-in-ramapo-moves-ahead/

 

 

[George88]

Once again, @Pudgy, you persist in demonstrating ignorance through your choice of words. Allow me to ask what, truly sets apart the act of blessing same-sex unions from the idea of same-sex marriages? Both of these concepts are condemned in scripture. It seems you are seeking to engage in a futile argument not based purely on logic.

[George88]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I should find a good and accurate newspaper article that conveys their decision and explains this move by the Church.

I have already provided the strongest evidence directly from the source, the Holy See. Do you still doubt it and want to dispute that?

[Thinking]

55 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

My speculations aren't worth the time to read them, but I'm guessing a timeline like the following: 

2024: No more Circuit Overseers. (The reason that the District Overseers were let go was not because they were costing too much money for cars, convention travel, etc, but because they tended to draw too close a connection between the Headquarters (WTBTS) and the direction followed within all the congregations. This resulted in some legal problems when WT lawyers claimed that the elders shepherd the flock on their own, and the guidance from HQ is not rule-based but only principle-based. But the same legal issue applies with Circuit Overseers.

2025: Shunning is now a matter of conscience. We should all be wary of our associations, but exactly how we implement a shunning policy is up to each one of us. Scriptures will include some Mosaic Law principles related to immediate family, and especially Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son who was welcomed from afar off, before the father knew anything about motives or repentance.

2026: Blood related therapies in any form are now (officially) a matter of conscience. 

2027: All Bible prophecies said to have a specific fulfillment in 1918, 1919, 1921, . . even into the 1940's will now be officially off the books.

2028: Head coverings now a matter of conscience. But no sister will dare conduct in front of a brother without one.

2034: October 1st "JW Broadcast" and additional GB announcement on October 2nd both offer renewed speculation about 1914 + 120 years = 2034 (i.e. "on or about October 4th, 2034")

2034: Amidst winks and nods, and even some outright laughter, the Annual Meeting will be announced for Sunday October 8th 2034 with simulcasting everywhere to all congregations. Expect announcement that "after careful consideration over the previous several days" ...the 1914 doctrine will be dropped completely at this meeting on October 8th.

2034: Great Tribulation and Armageddon begins October 9, 2034.

So Brother Rando was right..

2026…so I could argue that means fornication and idol worship was a matter of conscience 

I like your speculations but I dont want to wait for ten years………tho the 120 yrs thing is a big thing in my mind.

[George88]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I. Blessing in the sacrament of marriage

Do you believe Jesus would have approved of such a union when God didn't? But then again, under the Vatican bylaws, the POPE, has the power to change scripture and its laws, as mentioned in another thread. While the Watchtower GB don't believe that.

A counterpoint you keep accusing the Watchtower GB of doing in other ways. Do you condemn the Varican and POPE?

[George88]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

2025: Shunning is now a matter of conscience. We should all be wary of our associations, but exactly how we implement a shunning policy is up to each one of us. Scriptures will include some Mosaic Law principles related to immediate family, and especially Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son who was welcomed from afar off, before the father knew anything about motives or repentance.

So, are you suggesting that you believe that Jesus' instructions to the apostles were incorrect? What impact does it have when wise sayings are attributed to the divine and all the implications that come with it? The way you are interpreting the word "shun" may not necessarily align with the scriptural concept of avoiding bad associations.

How would you implement the advice recorded in 2 Timothy 2?

NAS 2 Timothy 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. (2 Tim. 2:23 NAS)

NIV 2 Timothy 2:23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. (2 Tim. 2:23 NIV)

If you don't stay away (SHUN) what is wrong and foolish, how does a JW conform to scripture?

How about:

NIV Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. (Rom. 16:17 NIV)

In order to safeguard ourselves, scripture advises us to completely avoid associations with negative influences. We are specifically directed to avoid negative influences as a protective measure. How can one respectfully challenge a JW's interpretation of God's teachings without disregarding their faith?

Is it justifiable to encourage JWs to deviate from the teachings of God simply because we disagree with certain aspects of the Bible? If that's true, it appears that we are conveying a message that goes against scripture while also reproaching the WTS GB for the same behavior. This implies that none of us are right.

[Pudgy]

Georgie, you crack me up. I try hard to be funny, but you have natural talent!

 

 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My speculations aren't worth the time to read them, but I'm guessing a timeline like the following: 

2024: No more Circuit Overseers. (The reason that the District Overseers were let go was not because they were costing too much money for cars, convention travel, etc, but because they tended to draw too close a connection between the Headquarters (WTBTS) and the direction followed within all the congregations. This resulted in some legal problems when WT lawyers claimed that the elders shepherd the flock on their own, and the guidance from HQ is not rule-based but only principle-based. But the same legal issue applies with Circuit Overseers.

2025: Shunning is now a matter of conscience. We should all be wary of our associations, but exactly how we implement a shunning policy is up to each one of us. Scriptures will include some Mosaic Law principles related to immediate family, and especially Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son who was welcomed from afar off, before the father knew anything about motives or repentance.

2026: Blood related therapies in any form are now (officially) a matter of conscience. 

2027: All Bible prophecies said to have a specific fulfillment in 1918, 1919, 1921, . . even into the 1940's will now be officially off the books.

2028: Head coverings now a matter of conscience. But no sister will dare conduct in front of a brother without one.

2034: October 1st "JW Broadcast" and additional GB announcement on October 2nd both offer renewed speculation about 1914 + 120 years = 2034 (i.e. "on or about October 4th, 2034")

2034: Amidst winks and nods, and even some outright laughter, the Annual Meeting will be announced for Sunday October 8th 2034 with simulcasting everywhere to all congregations. Expect announcement that "after careful consideration over the previous several days" ...the 1914 doctrine will be dropped completely at this meeting on October 8th.

2034: Great Tribulation and Armageddon begins October 9, 2034.

Perfect! 😂 And all duly noted!

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, George88 said:

A counterpoint you keep accusing the Watchtower GB of doing in other ways. Do you condemn the Varican and POPE?

Yes. Every religious institution is guilty of something.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Pudgy said:

That means they only have two years to find those abandoned Gold Mines, and the “mother lode”under their property in Ramapo, NY. for the planned Sterling Mine Road upgrades.

https://rcbizjournal.com/2022/09/29/watchtower-bible-world-headquarters-project-in-ramapo-moves-ahead/

 

 

Quote from article:

In response to concerns over the scope of the project, the applicant has proposed building heights up to 75 feet in exchange for designating half the acreage as open space. The proposed MU3 district allows for building heights up to 45 feet. The applicant said that because of the topography, 75 feet buildings would appear smaller than the 45-foot buildings.

Indeed this building on the right looks lower than the one on the left.

 

 

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Thinking said:

2026…so I could argue that means fornication and idol worship was a matter of conscience 

I think the reasoning the WT would go with will be something like this: The Acts 15 decree said to abstain from food polluted by idols, and from the meat of strangled animals, too: 

 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.  Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols [εἰδωλοθύτων], from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

There is a very specific Greek word for "food polluted by idols." [εἰδωλοθύτων] Paul used that exact same specific Greek word in 1 Cor. 8.

Note first what Paul says about "food sacrificed to idols." [εἰδωλοθύτων]:

(1 Cor 8 ) Now about food sacrificed to idols [εἰδωλοθύτων]: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: [εἰδωλοθύτων]:We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

And Paul goes on to imply that you as a Christian could actually go ahead and eat this meat sacrificed to an idol right there inside the pagan idol temple itself. But that it's not a good idea because of the weak Christian with a weak conscience who might see you and can't understand why you might be eating food sacrificed to idols in any place.

Then in 1 Cor 10, Paul goes on to say that we don't even need to question whether food was strangled, or whether it was bled correctly, or whether it was sacrificed to an idol. The only thing to be concerned about are those people with weak consciences who are still around and who think we still need the Mosaic Law. (Or at least they were still around in Paul's day.) 

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”^[ If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” [εἰδωλοθύτων] then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

So a very specific thing that Acts 15 told Gentiles to abstain from was food sacrificed to idols. Yet Paul said go ahead and eat it without any qualms of conscience. Paul said to eat whatever an UNBELIEVER puts in front of you to eat; eat ANYTHING sold in the meat market. This could easily include bloody, strangled meat. ANYTHING!! An unbeliever didn't even necessarily follow the Noahide Laws, much less the Mosaic Laws. 

There were people in Corinth who thought they could argue that fornication and idolatry were OK. Some might consider celebrating the Lord's evening meal along with one of the big idol feasts that each city often held. Paul said that was idolatry, and Paul said to Flee from idolatry. Some were evidently "proud" that the congregation could put up with a notorious fornicator, but Paul gave arguments in 1 Corinthians about why fornication was always wrong. 

So if you follow Paul, you might find that bloody meat and food sacrificed to idols was now a matter of conscience, but you couldn't argue for idolatry and fornication.

The best explanation must therefore be that the holy spirit led those Christians who were still zealous for the Law of Moses to find a reason for some useful compromise. It would be necessary for Gentiles to follow this compromise for as long as Gentile Christians needed to associate with Jewish Christians who were still zealous for the Law.

Acts 21: Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

But after 70 CE, no Jewish Christians could be zealous for the Law any more. If you thought you had to follow any part of the Law then you must follow the whole Law, and the whole Law required the temple. The book of Hebrews shows how the entire temple arrangement had become fulfilled for Jewish Christians. There were no more sacrifices and the city of Jerusalem was not a city that remains, so Jewish Christians (Hebrews) needed to now go OUTSIDE the camp, once and for all time:

(Hebrews 13) Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.  We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat. The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.  Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.  For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come. Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

[Pudgy]

You know (rhetorically), 85% of all problems discussed here on this thread could be SOLVED if the Congregations were governed SPECIFICALLY and EXACTLY  as Jesus directed in Matthew 18:14-17.

What we are seeing now is not even close.

When we interact with people of the nations and tax collectors, who among us here treats them like lepers and takes their families hostage if they don’t do the same?

Nobody.