Who are declared righteous for life ?

[Melinda Mills]

Sharing what I research since seeing your post.

 

 Ps 2:6-8 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.  3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!”  4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them.  5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And terrify them in his burning anger,  6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.”  7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.

*** Extracted Document (from footnote on inheritance)***

(Psalm 72:8) He will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.

(Hebrews 1:2) Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

(Revelation 11:15) The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

[Melinda Mills]

Sharing

*** w09 2/15 pp. 7-9 How Jesus’ Sayings Promote Happiness *** How Happy “the Mild-Tempered Ones”!

8 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” (Matt. 5:5) “Mildness of temper,” or meekness, does not suggest weakness or hypocritical gentleness. (1 Tim. 6:11) If we are mild-tempered, we will display meekness by doing Jehovah’s will and accepting his guidance. Mildness of temper will also be evident in the way we deal with fellow believers and others. Such meekness harmonizes with the apostle Paul’s counsel.—Read Romans 12:17-19.

9 Why are the mild-tempered ones happy? Because “they will inherit the earth,” said mild-tempered Jesus. He is the principal Inheritor of the earth. (Ps. 2:8; Matt. 11:29; Heb. 2:8, 9) However, mild-tempered “joint heirs with Christ” share in his inheritance of the earth. (Rom. 8:16, 17) In the earthly realm of Jesus’ Kingdom, many other meek ones will enjoy everlasting life.—Ps. 37:10, 11.

10 Like Jesus, we should be mild-tempered. But what if we are known for having a belligerent spirit? Such an aggressive and hostile attitude may cause people to shy away from us. If we are brothers desiring to have responsibilities in the congregation, this trait disqualifies us. (1 Tim. 3:1, 3) Paul told Titus to keep reminding Christians in Crete “not to be belligerent, to be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.” (Titus 3:1, 2) What a blessing such mildness is to others!

…

Why “the Pure in Heart” Are Happy

16 “Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.” (Matt. 5:8) If we are “pure in heart,” purity will be evident in our affections, desires, and motives. We will display “love out of a clean heart.” (1 Tim. 1:5) Being inwardly clean, we will “see God.” This does not necessarily mean seeing Jehovah literally, for “no man may see [God] and yet live.” (Ex. 33:20) Since he perfectly reflected God’s personality, however, Jesus could say: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:7-9) As Jehovah’s worshippers on earth, we can “see God” by observing him act in our behalf. (Job 42:5) For anointed Christians, seeing God reaches its apex when they are resurrected to spirit life and actually see their heavenly Father.—1 John 3:2.

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

So that was the point Ann O'Maly was making, then. Like you I used it and the other scriptures you mentioned referring to the earthly inheritance in my sermons as a child. And like you I would have missed it due to youth and the facilities available at the times. I don't think we had bound volumes in those days, either.

In the 1970's, we were still using blue binders with 24 "spokes" to collect the magazines, but bound volumes were being printed. 

I remember that it was long after I was baptized that I even noticed that Jesus (in Matt 5:5) was actually quoting Psalm 37 when he said the meek would inherit the earth. Today, I think there is much less emphasis on nit-picking whether a verse had to be specially applied to the anointed before we could speak about a general application to the "other sheep." I don't think anyone would say anything if you said that Jesus was speaking to people who would inherit the earth by living on it forever. I remember an article that I'm looking for now where David was originally applying the verse to the ideal situation with the Kingdom of Israel wherein they would continue to inhabit the promised land forever, and therefore inherit the earth by living on it forever if they kept up their end of the Abrahamic, Mosaic and Davidic covenants with Jehovah. It struck me as odd that the original idea was that they would inherit it forever by living and dying on the land, for the next generation to inherit.

This matches what Eoin said about the absence of a resurrection hope.

*** w74 6/15 pp. 377-378 pars. 13-14 Serve with Eternity in View ***
13 In Psalm 37:11, 29 David wrote: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, . . . The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” In saying this he evidently drew upon what should have been the case with regard to the Promised Land in his days and in the following generations. According to God’s covenant with Abraham, the wicked pagans who had lived in the land should be cleared out. (Gen. 15:18-21; 17:8; Deut. 7:22; Josh. 21:43-45) Thus each successive generation of righteous worshipers making up the nation of Israel could have resided on the land, the portion of the earth that God gave to them. (Deut. 30:20) We know, however, that the majority of the Israelites proved unfaithful, and so they did not carry out God’s purpose in that regard. In fact, finally God let the Assyrians and Babylonians conquer and depopulate the land temporarily.
14 What David wrote in Psalm 37, though, was also a glimmering of the prospect that Christians today can have. That David’s words had a broader, large-scale application to the Kingdom rule of the entire earth is seen in the fact that at Matthew 5:5 Jesus quoted from Psalm 37. Did Christ say that its fulfillment was all in the past? No, for he projected it into the future, saying that the ‘mild-tempered will inherit the earth.’ Yes, those mild-tempered ones who are to be with Christ in his heavenly kingdom will rule over this earth. (Rev. 5:9, 10) Jesus knew that the Kingdom would rule the earth in righteousness forever. So, the earth itself will be populated by “righteous” ones who will “reside forever upon it.” Thus, by inspiration, David had described what the finale will be when Jehovah carries out his purpose for our earth. Christians can rejoice that the things of which David saw just glimmerings, and could personally share in only by means of a future resurrection, they can experience. Those whom the Lord puts on his right hand as “sheep” have the opportunity to “reside forever” on a paradise earth governed forever from heaven.

 

[JW Insider]

On 12/2/2016 at 8:36 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

At that time they were all destined for the Grave I would have thought. Ecc. 9:5, 10.

Good point.

Glimmers of this hope were obvious however in Abraham's faith when he was about to kill his son, along with things that Job said, Elijah's experience, Enoch's experience, etc. It was unclear in the book of Ecclesiastes but became explicit however in the book of Daniel and more than hinted at in Ezekiel and other prophetic books. In Jesus' day the [fairly popular] Pharisees believed in a resurrection, but not the [more "elite"] Sadducees, of course. The development of a an "orthodox" Jewish resurrection doctrine can be seen between the time of say Ezekiel and Jesus by looking at some of the beliefs included in the pseudepigrapha and apocryphal and other deutero-canonical works from the interim period.

Another interesting idea is that Paradise could refer to either an earthly realm or a heavenly realm in these interim books, just as it does in the Greek Scriptures:

*** w15 7/15 p. 8 par. 8 Work to Enhance the Spiritual Paradise ***
What Paul saw in a supernatural vision was referred to as a revelation. It involved a future event, not something that existed in his day. When Paul “was caught away to the third heaven,” what “paradise” did he see? The paradise that Paul spoke about would have a physical, a spiritual, and a heavenly fulfillment, all of which will coexist in the future. It can refer to the physical, earthly Paradise yet to come. (Luke 23:43) It can also refer to the spiritual paradise that will be experienced to the full in the new world. Additionally, it can refer to the blessed conditions in heaven in “the paradise of God.”—Rev. 2:7.

Some of the interim Jewish literature speaks of conditions in earthly paradise in language like Isaiah's along with the idea that some fruits and vegetation would grow to giant sizes when it was harvested. Some of the phrases similar to the one found in Revelation, below, would have been read as if they were going to be earthly, physical realities.

(Revelation 22:1, 2) And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb  down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

On 12/3/2016 at 1:36 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

I'd see it as a call from heaven to go to heaven. 1 Cor 15:48-49 etc.

How does 1 Cor. 15 support the idea of two different destinies for Christians? Why would one, who is rewarded with a 'heavenly' body, only be able to enjoy their new life in heaven? The point Paul was making was that the present body is corruptible and perishable, whereas the resurrection body will endowed with incorruptibility and immortality.

--------------

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

As Eion said in a recent post, one has to pray for understanding and insight.

That's a given. Earnest and prayerful scriptural research may lead to new perspectives that are at odds with one's previous understanding.

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Seat of God's Kingdom is in heaven, since Jesus went back to heaven, is of spirit nature, has immortality and is living in unapproachable light. ( 1 Tim 6:16) Those who partake of his nature would also be resurrected to heaven. So they acquire the glory of Jesus. (2 Thess 2:13,14)  Jesus frequently used the term the "kingdom of the heavens".

The question still remains: on what scriptural basis is the idea that Christian believers have two different destinies. If all first century Christians were (for the sake of argument) heaven-bound, where does the idea come from that there would be a subset of Christian believers who were not heaven-bound? After the 'inspired' Bible books were written, finalized and canonized, what changed?

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Eph 1:10 reaffirms one flock, one shepherd; but two folds: Earthly and heavenly. Therefore it agrees with John 10:16.

There is nothing there that even hints there will one set of Christian believers being rewarded in heaven while another set of Christian believers get rewarded someplace else. All the Ephesian believers were called heirs in Christ (1:11) and given the holy spirit as a token of that future inheritance (1:13,14).

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Little flock in heaven; great flock on earth where humans were placed originally.

Again, how do you come to that assumption?

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

One could be in presence of God and not necessarily be in heaven. When God acknowledged his Son on earth he was in his presence. (See my research given to Shiwii.)

Sure. But we are talking about the vision given to John. To be faithful to the vision's details at Rev. 7, the 'great crowd' are in the same location as the angels, four living creatures and elders. What textual warrant is there to arbitrarily remove them to somewhere different?

23 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Can't fault your logic but you have to see the whole picture, the overall purpose of God to understand it. 

I agree you have to see the whole picture. The thing is, we are seeing different pictures - or rather, yours has some pieces of the puzzle jammed into the wrong places, imho

[Melinda Mills]

Let us agree that we are seeing different things from the same information, but further and continued examination with sincerity eventually brings clarity. Keep up the interest.

[JW Insider]

On 12/1/2016 at 2:18 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

What is the scriptural support that there are two different destinies for Christian believers?

I can't think of any specific scripture or set of scriptures stating that some will have an earthly hope while others will have a heavenly hope, but it seems a reasonable conclusion to draw from the imagery of both "a new heavens and a new earth"

(2 Peter 3:5-13) 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. 8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Of course, this particular passage on its own would make readers think of the earthly atmosphere as the particular heavens that will be replaced - the same heavens that existed below a "water canopy" from which rain fell.

But Jesus speaks more directly of a kind of "location" for dwelling in these "heavens:"

(John 14:1-4) . . .Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. 4 And where I am going, you know the way.”

(Matthew 13:43) 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

(Matthew 6:9, 10) 9 “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.

(Ephesians 1:9, 10) . . .his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . . [compare with "his will" in Matthew 6:10]

(2 Corinthians 5:1, 2) 5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,

I don't think it's our place to decide our own specific place in which we will serve Jehovah in the future. That is up to him. I think the emphasis on an earthly hope, although not completely unique to Witnesses, is a way of presenting ourselves to Jehovah in a humble, unassuming manner. And for all we know, our joy in Jehovah's service is its own reward, and all this talk about a specific difference is a distinction without a distinction as far as we should be concerned.

I am sometimes concerned that Jesus and the apostles always put the spiritual hope on a higher plane than earthly things, and there is a danger that we promote the new "system" in terms of physical rewards - no more physical hunger, no more physical pain, no more physical sorrow, along with a life that includes all the physical pleasures we know now and perhaps more that have not even come up into our minds.

This is why for myself, I  should meditate on spiritual things so that the fruitage of that spirit is the true reflection of our motivations. In context, when Galatians spoke of the "fruit of the spirit" it was, just like Romans, referring to the outcome evidenced from the true "anointing" of the spirit. So I see no contradiction in reading the Greek Scriptures as if they are written to all of us Christians, without any "hocus-pocus" about differences as to how we need to apply certain scriptures only to those with a specific hope for a destination that might be different from my earthly hope. All of us should want to let Jehovah's spirit work in our lives.

(Romans 3:22-25) .22 yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. . . .

(Romans 8:19-25) 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

(Galatians 3:10-14) 10 All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.” 11 Moreover, it is evident that by law no one is declared anyone righteous with God, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” 12 Now the Law is not based on faith. Rather, “who does these things will live by means of them.” 13 Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.” 14 This was so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the nations by means of Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.

Generally, no matter what we feel should be our appropriate final destiny, we all still share the same hope and eager expectation of the revealing of the sons of God.

We have a situation where we read the scriptures and accept that when it says "all have sinned" it truly means "all" of us but if the same paragraph in the Bible says that Jesus propitiation is for "all having faith" then suddenly it is specifically referring to  144,000 of those having faith, not all, even though the context was exactly the same. The examples above are not the only ones, of course.

We also then have the odd situation of saying that there were two ways in which Jesus promise was given "first" or "primarily." In fact, notice that there are TWO correct answers to this question as it appears in the Reasoning book under the same heading:

[all bracketed info and parenthetical info in the quotation below are from the original source, not added by me.]

*** rs p. 308-p. 309 Ransom ***

To whom first was the merit of Jesus’ sacrifice applied, and with what objective?

Rom. 1:16: “The good news [regarding Jesus Christ and his role in Jehovah’s purpose] . . . is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (The invitation to benefit from the provision for salvation through Christ was extended first to the Jews, then to non-Jews.) . . .

Who else in our day are experiencing benefits from Jesus’ sacrifice?

1 John 2:2: “He [Jesus Christ] is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins [those of the apostle John and other spirit-anointed Christians], yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s [others of mankind, those for whom the prospect of eternal life on earth is thus made possible].”

John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (These “other sheep” come under the loving care of Jesus Christ while the remnant of the “little flock” of Kingdom heirs is still on earth; thus the “other sheep” can be associated with the Kingdom heirs as part of the “one flock.” They all enjoy many of the same benefits from Jesus’ sacrifice, but not identically so, because they have different destinies.)

 

Paul himself could refer to verses in the Hebrew Scriptures that mention the "nations" coming in and Paul could say that these verses indicated that the "one hope" of Christians was to be shared with the non-Jews (aka Greeks, aka Gentiles). But the Watch Tower publications have used these same Scriptural indicators to indicate a separate "hope" rather than to make the point that Paul made.  In the Watch Tower publications, we say that many of the references in the Hebrew Scriptures to anyone of goodwill among the nations is a reference to the "other sheep." I'm not comfortable with the contradiction.

 

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How does 1 Cor. 15 support the idea of two different destinies for Christians?

Don't think it does directly.?? Much of Paul's discussion in this chapter appears to be dealing with a lack of understanding and faith on the part of those who at least were contemplating the prospect of a heavenly resurrection.

This is an interesting discussion, but I think it is going off topic and seems to be veering into a debate on whether the resurrection hope includes two destinies. Whilst the distinction regarding the various statements regarding God declaring men righteous has a bearing on this, I feel the link is getting tenuous and we are venturing into @The Librarian nudge territory.

Maybe someone would formulate an appropriate topic?

[Ann O'Maly]

On 12/5/2016 at 1:03 AM, Eoin Joyce said:

This is an interesting discussion, but I think it is going off topic and seems to be veering into a debate on whether the resurrection hope includes two destinies. Whilst the distinction regarding the various statements regarding God declaring men righteous has a bearing on this, I feel the link is getting tenuous and we are venturing into @The Librarian nudge territory.

Tenuous? Hardly. The whole (alleged) distinction between being 'declared righteous for life' versus being 'declared righteous as Jehovah's friend' is centered on the two destiny concept. Given that the vast majority of Christian believers over the past (nearly) 2000 years are dead and awaiting resurrection ... somewhere - some to 'heavenly' immortality and others to 'earthly' probation-pending-permanence (as WT teaching goes) ... the discussion about resurrection is very much on topic.

Quote

Much of Paul's discussion in this chapter appears to be dealing with a lack of understanding and faith on the part of those who at least were contemplating the prospect of a heavenly resurrection.

Are they contemplating a resurrection to heaven? Or just the resurrection per se?

[Evacuated]

44 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Are they contemplating a resurrection to heaven?

Yes. 1Cor 14:44;49;50;53.

47 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Or just the resurrection per se?

No. 1Cor 14:44;49;50;53.

[Ann O'Maly]

24 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Yes. 1Cor 14:44;49;50;53.

You meant 1 Cor. 15, of course.

One can have a 'heavenly' (heaven-sourced, spirit-generated) body without having to be in the location of heaven to enjoy it.

Besides, Jesus said his post-resurrection body was, in some way, material (Luke 24:39; cp. 1 Cor. 15:50).

[Evacuated]

41 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

You meant 1 Cor. 15, of course.

Oops Yes....Thanks!