Who are declared righteous for life ?

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44 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Luke 24:39

Don't be silly Ann. You know this was done for the benefit of the disciples. They were not in the heavenly realm at the time.

47 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

One can have a 'heavenly' (heaven-sourced, spirit-generated) body without having to be in the location of heaven to enjoy it.

This is interesting. Are you referring to Gen 6:2?

[Ann O'Maly]

13 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Don't be silly Ann. You know this was done for the benefit of the disciples. They were not in the heavenly realm at the time.

Neither was he (John 20:17).

13 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This is interesting. Are you referring to Gen 6:2?

I was thinking more of Luke 24:36-43. 

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3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I was thinking more of Luke 24:36-43. 

Do you think this is an example of what Luke referred to later at Acts 1:3?

[Ann O'Maly]

On 12/10/2016 at 3:31 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Do you think this is an example of what Luke referred to later at Acts 1:3?

Of course.

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6 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Of course.

Well then, Jesus appearances in an apparently human form were "positive proofs" to his disciples of the fact of his resurrection and not the nature of his resurrection. There are a number of examples in scripture of spirits (angels) appearing in a tangible human form in order to carry out assignments. (And apparently unauthorised examples of the same).

The reality of a resurrection for humans in human, physical form was not a new concept to faithful worshippers of Jehovah, because of the resurrections already recorded in scripture. Even before these, Job spoke of the possibility of a man living again after "compulsory service" in the grave at the call of God. (Job 14:15). Interestingly, when Jesus resurrected Jairus' daughter, he ordered her to be given food, a very physical provision. And circumstantially, Luke the pysician's record of this miracle has no hint of a spiritual aspect to this resurrection. Martha's faith in Lazarus being resurrected on the last day was based on these examples in part, so I cannot see her as having a concept other than that of a physical, earthly resurrection of humans in human form. This would have been considerably reinforced by what she then witnesed in connection with her brother, Lazarus.

It does not seem feasable (to me) that Paul would need to discuss at length the nature of the body provided for those resurrected if the topic involved being resurrected in a fleshly human form when so much prior evidence already existed for this kind of resurrection. (And to which he did not refer). His discussion involved a resurrection to spirit life in the heavens, with an appropriately provided body and quality of life suitable for such a destiny, and for which a body of flesh and blood would be obsolete.

The description of the glorified Jesus in the heavens at 1Tim.6:16 indicates that "no man can see" him and this is appropriate for one who "is the image of the invisible God" Col.1:15. So, for those who are described, in connection with Jehovah, as destined to "see him just as he is", then their having the privilege of also seeing the glorified Jesus just as he is would seem a logical conclusion. This would not be an experience for any man of flesh and blood, resurrected or otherwise.

As stated before, 'every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the ground'  will bend in the name of the Christ eventually. Ph.2:10. So, all humans will be Christian not least in the sense that they will all have benefited from the ransom paid by Jesus and his tasting "death for everyone" Heb.2:9 and their having excercised the requisite faith in that provision. John 3:16. It is obvious from all that is discussed in the Scriptures that a heavenly resurrection hope is held out to some of those Christians. It is also clear that "the inhabited earth to come" that is subject to Jesus will be inhabited in part by humans like Job who looked forward to an end to their compulsory service in the grave (or Sheol), and this by means of a physical, earthly resurrection. 

[Ann O'Maly]

18 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Well then, Jesus appearances in an apparently human form were "positive proofs" to his disciples of the fact of his resurrection and not the nature of his resurrection. There are a number of examples in scripture of spirits (angels) appearing in a tangible human form in order to carry out assignments. (And apparently unauthorised examples of the same).

How would the disciples have understood his words in Luke 24:39, then?

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... Job spoke of the possibility of a man living again after "compulsory service" in the grave at the call of God. (Job 14:15). 

Jesus was a man who, by the call of God, lived again - Acts 2:22-24, 1 Tim. 2:5.

As for all the other examples in the Bible of resurrections and the conclusions you draw from these: As you know, these people did not enjoy a resurrection like Christ's. His resurrection was something new, and Christian believers who died before his Presence would have to wait until his Presence before they could enjoy a resurrection like Christ's.

Quote

The description of the glorified Jesus in the heavens at 1Tim.6:16 indicates that "no man can see" him and this is appropriate for one who "is the image of the invisible God" Col.1:15. ...

I question whether the subject to whom "the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see," refers is Jesus, but rather to the "only Potentate" (Mighty God) because Jesus has been seen by man and the only one inherently immortal is God. The passage doesn't make sense otherwise.

Quote

It is obvious from all that is discussed in the Scriptures that a heavenly resurrection hope is held out to some of those Christians. It is also clear that "the inhabited earth to come" that is subject to Jesus will be inhabited in part by humans like Job who looked forward to an end to their compulsory service in the grave (or Sheol), and this by means of a physical, earthly resurrection.

It is not obvious or clear to me from scripture that there are two sets of true Christian believers in this 'Gospel Age' that have different destinies. Again, if all true Christian believers in the first century had one destiny, and this was when the inspired Bible canon was closed, how did two different destinies for true Christian believers come about?

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9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

How would the disciples have understood his words in Luke 24:39

That the Jesus they knew and loved had indeed been resurrected. Jesus exhibited the same spirit that he displayed at John 16:12-13. No need to subject his already buffeted disciples to terrifying manifestations such as those experienced earlier by Daniel when confronted with a spirit being (Da.10:8-9). Jesus did not find it necessary to overwhelm them with proof that he had been resurrected in the manner required to move the insolent Saul as later recorded at Acts 9:3-9.

 

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Jesus was a man who, by the call of God, lived again - Acts 2:22-24, 1 Tim. 2:5.

Agreed, but would qualify this with a reference to 1 Cor.15:45 which says of Jesus: "The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." This is not what Job had in mind.

 

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

As for all the other examples in the Bible of resurrections and the conclusions you draw from these: As you know, these people did not enjoy a resurrection like Christ's.

Agreed. That is the conclusion I draw.

 

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

His resurrection was something new, and Christian believers who died before his Presence would have to wait until his Presence before they could enjoy a resurrection like Christ's.

Agreed. However, pre-Christian believers will not enjoy a resurrection like Christ's.
 

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

"only Potentate" (Mighty God)

With regard to 1Tim.6:15-16, I know this is disputed. I am happy to read this as a contrast with earthly rulers and therefore as referring to the glorified Jesus in the heavens. (Not sure why you have Mighty God in parenthesis here?)

However, your proposed view does not change the understanding of 1John 3:2 where Christians who will  "see him just as he is" will of necessity be unable to do so if resurrected as humans, flesh and blood.

10 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

It is not obvious or clear to me from scripture that there are two sets of true Christian believers in this 'Gospel Age' that have different destinies

This is patently obvious. But...it is clear to me! "Funny old world" someone said to me yesterday when they realised that a lifetime of Bible reading had not led them to discern even that God had a personal name.

10 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

how did two different destinies for true Christian believers come about?

Compare Jesus words at Matt.16:17:

"flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did"

[Anna]

On 11/29/2016 at 6:44 PM, JW Insider said:

 .......He was one who often hinted that the non-remnant are brought to righteousness through the work of the remnant since only the remnant have Jesus as mediator. In effect, as many opposers are quick to point out, only the remnant become the mediator between Jesus and the "other sheep." It's problematic and forces the idea that the Greek Scriptures were only written to the remnant, and the only parts that can apply at least indirectly to the other sheep are those portions that the remnant will clarify for them.

Yes, I've seen opposers indignant at the thought that Jesus is only the mediator between Jehovah and the anointed, as if the other sheep cannot be heard by Jehovah when they pray. This of course cannot be the case. When a member of the other sheep pray, they do not need someone of the anointed to mediate on their behalf with Jesus so that they, the other sheep can be heard by Jehovah. Jehovah hears their prayer.  Although the other sheep are not in a special covenant with Jesus, and therefor it can be said Jesus is not their mediator, Jesus IS their intercessor. There was an article about this difference in a WT but I can't remember where!

[Anna]

On 12/3/2016 at 11:50 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

The following verses (as you quoted) have heaven and earth being gathered together in Christ. It doesn't indicate that some Christian believers will have their everlasting reward in one or the other location.

So, just a few simple questions, why did God create the earth in the first place? Do you believe what Christendom does, that the earth was created as a testing ground for mankind, before they were allowed access into heaven? Is heaven the place where the angels were to mingle with humans who had experienced life on earth and then were given spiritual bodies to become like the other angels, who had never been human but were created already with a spiritual body?  Or do you believe what the Mormons believe, that God created only angels who, in order to appreciate being an angel, were sent to the earth to experience evil?

[JW Insider]

20 hours ago, Anna said:

Jesus is not their mediator, Jesus IS their intercessor.

Was it here?

*** 2015 nwt[study] Glossary of Bible Terms ***
Mediator. One who intercedes between two parties in order to reconcile them. In the Scriptures, Moses and Jesus are the mediators of the Law covenant and the new covenant respectively.—Ga 3:19; 1Ti 2:5.

Just kidding. A mediator is the same thing as an intercessor, and the new 2015 glossary, just quoted, accidentally points that out. In the NWT the words, intercede, intercedes, intercessor, interceding are never used in the Greek Scriptures of the NWT.

But you can see some of what was done in the NWT with a good NT-Greek dictionary, or even by looking at the footnotes in the NWT. I'll give both the NWT reading and the NWT footnote reading for the following verses.

(Hebrews 7:25) Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them. (NWT)

(Hebrews 7:25) Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to be interceding for them. (NWT footnote)

(Hebrews 6:17) In this manner God, when he purposed to demonstrate more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his counsel, stepped in with an oath,

(Hebrews 6:17) In this manner God, when he purposed to demonstrate more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his counsel, he mediated [mesiteuo] with an oath . . . [mesiteuo is merely the verb form of mediator]

In other words, the term mediator [mesites] is not strictly used with a legal application to Jesus between the heirs and Jehovah. Here, Jehovah himself is the mediator. In fact, I think the very context of 1 Timothy 2:4,5 makes this clear:

(1 Timothy 2:1-6) First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all* men, ² concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness. ³ This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, ⁴ whose will is that all* people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. ⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, ⁶ who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all**. . . [NWT with two words left out of v.1 and v.4]

If we follow the Watchtower's claim that there is on "mediator between God and "some" men" rather than all, then we lose the logic indicated by the word "For" (or "because") that ties verse 4 and verse 5 together. We also lose the logic of the context where it included the fact that we should pray for Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Kim Jong-un, Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, etc. These are included in "all men" (or "all people"). Of course, I put an asterisk after the word "all" in verse 1 and 4 because the NWT changes the phrase "all people/men" by changing it to "all sorts of people/men." The original Greek is very consistent here in using the term " πάντων ἀνθρώπων" or "panton anthropon" (all men) each time in verses 1 and 4. In verse 6, the NWT footnote indicates that even the "all" in verse 6 could be translated "all sorts of people." Translating it this way in the actual text of the translation, rather than just in the footnote, might have hinted at an equivalence between the "all" who have a mediator, and the "all" for whom the ransom was given.

[Anna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Was it here?

*** 2015 nwt[study] Glossary of Bible Terms ***
Mediator. One who intercedes between two parties in order to reconcile them. In the Scriptures, Moses and Jesus are the mediators of the Law covenant and the new covenant respectively.—Ga 3:19; 1Ti 2:5.

Just kidding. A mediator is the same thing as an intercessor, and the new 2015 glossary, just quoted, accidentally points that out. In the NWT the words, intercede, intercedes, intercessor, interceding are never used in the Greek Scriptures of the NWT.

But you can see some of what was done in the NWT with a good NT-Greek dictionary, or even by looking at the footnotes in the NWT. I'll give both the NWT reading and the NWT footnote reading for the following verses.

(Hebrews 7:25) Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them. (NWT)

(Hebrews 7:25) Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to be interceding for them. (NWT footnote)

(Hebrews 6:17) In this manner God, when he purposed to demonstrate more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his counsel, stepped in with an oath,

(Hebrews 6:17) In this manner God, when he purposed to demonstrate more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his counsel, he mediated [mesiteuo] with an oath . . . [mesiteuo is merely the verb form of mediator]

In other words, the term mediator [mesites] is not strictly used with a legal application to Jesus between the heirs and Jehovah. Here, Jehovah himself is the mediator. In fact, I think the very context of 1 Timothy 2:4,5 makes this clear:

(1 Timothy 2:1-6) First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all* men, ² concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness. ³ This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, ⁴ whose will is that all* people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. ⁵ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, ⁶ who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all**. . . [NWT with two words left out of v.1 and v.4]

If we follow the Watchtower's claim that there is on "mediator between God and "some" men" rather than all, then we lose the logic indicated by the word "For" (or "because") that ties verse 4 and verse 5 together. We also lose the logic of the context where it included the fact that we should pray for Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Kim Jong-un, Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, etc. These are included in "all men" (or "all people"). Of course, I put an asterisk after the word "all" in verse 1 and 4 because the NWT changes the phrase "all people/men" by changing it to "all sorts of people/men." The original Greek is very consistent here in using the term " πάντων ἀνθρώπων" or "panton anthropon" (all men) each time in verses 1 and 4. In verse 6, the NWT footnote indicates that even the "all" in verse 6 could be translated "all sorts of people." Translating it this way in the actual text of the translation, rather than just in the footnote, might have hinted at an equivalence between the "all" who have a mediator, and the "all" for whom the ransom was given.

Haha, ok, thanks for the clarification . There is still a WT article regarding that question of Jesus being a mediator for all or just a few, especially with regard to the other sheep. I will try and find it, unless you beat me to it. It's been a while since I read it. Do you have the WT on hand which says that Jesus is the mediator only for the anointed?

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Do you have the WT on hand which says that Jesus is the mediator only for the anointed?

There have been several references like this, but the one that created the most "noise" at Bethel was in 1979. It created some internal discussions, which F W Franz considered the same as murmuring, and probably was the single biggest catalyst to the "apostasy" inquests. None of those who were known to "murmur" the loudest were affected by the questionings, however, but it did reveal a related problem. Anyway, here is the original one:

*** w79 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
● Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.
The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under “Mediator”; also God’s “Eternal Purpose” Now Triumphing for Man’s Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading “Leading the Way to a New Covenant”; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading “The New Covenant.”

Then when F W Franz fell sick for a bit, his life story was printed in the Watchtower, and I'm told that a few people began saying that this doctrine would change as soon as he died. Within 2 years of Franz' life story, however, a new article was prepared that said the same thing as in 1979. It was printed about 3 years before Brother Franz died. Only a portion of it is quoted here:

*** w89 8/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
□ Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?
The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ’s role as Mediator. . . .
Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus’ role as Mediator? Yes. . . .
Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.  . . . The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.

The most recent article that repeated these thoughts more succinctly was here:

*** w08 12/15 pp. 13-14 pars. 12-14 Appreciate Jesus’ Unique Role in God’s Purpose ***
12 The original-language word translated “mediator” is a legal term. It refers to Jesus as a legal Mediator (or, in a sense, an attorney) of the new covenant that made possible the birth of a new nation, “the Israel of God.” (Gal. 6:16) This nation is composed of spirit-anointed Christians, who form a heavenly “royal priesthood.” (1 Pet. 2:9; Ex. 19:6) The Law covenant, with Moses as mediator, was not able to produce a nation like that.
13 What does Jesus’ role as Mediator involve? Well, Jehovah applies the value of Jesus’ blood to those being brought into the new covenant. In this way, Jehovah legally credits them with righteousness. (Rom. 3:24; Heb. 9:15) God can then take them into the new covenant with the prospect of their becoming heavenly king-priests! As their Mediator, Jesus assists them in maintaining a clean standing before God.—Heb. 2:16.
14 What about those who are not in the new covenant, those who hope to live forever on earth, not in heaven? While not participants in the new covenant, these are beneficiaries of it. They receive forgiveness of their sins and are declared righteous as God’s friends. (Jas. 2:23; 1 John 2:1, 2) Whether we have a heavenly hope or an earthly hope, each one of us has good reason to appreciate Jesus’ role as the Mediator of the new covenant.

 

Also, a lot of less direct references, including the following partial list:

*** w15 1/15 p. 16 par. 14 Why We Observe the Lord’s Evening Meal ***
Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant, and loyal anointed ones taken into it receive a heavenly inheritance.

*** w03 2/15 p. 22 par. 19 What Does the Lord’s Evening Meal Mean to You? ***
The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator.

*** w00 11/15 p. 11 par. 8 Christians Find Happiness in Serving ***
Jesus mediated a new covenant, which made possible the birth of a new nation, “the Israel of God,” composed of spirit-anointed Christians from many nations.

*** w93 1/1 p. 5 New Creations Brought Forth! ***
Thus, the man Christ Jesus was the first of a new creation, anointed to do God’s will. Later, on the basis of his sacrificial death, Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men. Each of these has become “a new creation,” begotten by God’s spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.

[WT could have used a bit of editing or proofreading on this last one, because the wording appears to emphasize the idea that they are all male.]

*** w87 4/1 p. 17 par. 6 Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” ***
His counsel is always wise, perfect, and infallible. As the Mediator between Jehovah God and those who have been taken into the new covenant, he has been serving indeed as a wonderful counselor for these past 19 centuries. Now, since 1935, “a great crowd” of his “other sheep” has been taking in his wonderful counsel and is getting the finest instruction and guidance.

*** w84 2/15 p. 20 par. 18 The Recent Pen for “Other Sheep” ***
18 When, in God’s due time, the remnant of the spiritual Israelites finish their earthly course and pass off the scene to enter their heavenly reward, the new covenant that was based on the blood of the Mediator, the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, will cease to apply, it having successfully served its purpose. With this the observing of the Lord’s Evening Meal on Passover Day of each year will stop. Then, too, “this fold” for the flock of spiritual Israelites will cease to exist.

*** it-2 p. 858 Sanctification ***
However, Moses as God’s appointed mediator could draw nearer. In this, Moses prophetically foreshadowed Jesus Christ, the great Mediator for anointed Christians, as they approach heavenly Mount Zion.—Heb 12:22-24.