607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Foreigner]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I had never heard this word. I looked it up, of course, because I will not tolerate any disrespect for AlanF. It is not our place to talk back to him. It is his place to tell us, and all we can do is just hope he can keep the insults under reasonable control.

YOU WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY DISRESPECT FOR ALANF. WHO ARE YOU TO DEMAND THAT ANYONE RESPECTS WHITE TRASH, ESPECIALLY AFTER COMMENTING, BROWN TRASH?

YOU AND ANN AS THE OWNERS OF THIS SITE, HAVE NO RIGHT TO DEMAND ANYTHING FROM ANYONE. IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT TUFF.

A PERSON THAT DENIGRATE OTHERS FOR THEIR WRITING SKILLS IS THE STUPIDEST PERSON ALIVE. THE EXAMPLE I OFFERED OF HIS OWN FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE *JEFFRO* ILLUSTRATED HOW MORONIC HIS CHILDISH ATTEMPTS ARE TO IMPOSE HIS WRITING SKILLS ON ANYONE. SINCE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, ALSO MAKE MISTAKES, YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN ANYONE.

O’MALY, ANNA, ALANF, WHICHEVER NAME THIS PERSON IS AND IS ASSOCIATED WITH YOU, HAVE GONE BEYOND HAVING TO TOLERATE THIS JERK, ACTIONS.

SO, DON’T EVER CLAIM YOUR BETTER THAN ME, JUST BECAUSE YOUR WHITE. I’M NOT A WITNESS YET, AND THE WAY IT LOOKS WITH THE FILTH HERE, I’M NOT FOR SURE I WANT TO BE ONE.

[TrueTomHarley]

No no no @Foreigner - you misunderstand me.

You have called @AlanF a pengabo. That means you and I are friends. Nobody thinks Alan is a big jerk more than me. I was being sarcastic writing what I did and you didn't realize that. I am sorry for that. It is my fault. 

Look at my posts. I have posted two in a row which are nothing but making him look bad by his own mouth - quoting insult after insult of his that he has hurled at other people. He cannot speak without being nasty. And I am just getting started. There are still pages of his taunts I can draw upon. It is unusual that someone is so ugly as he - he is even nasty to you when he says you played "the race card." You can play it all you want as far as I am concerned.

Okay? You don't like him. I don't like him. Nobody with any sense likes him.

When I write I use humor. I use exaggeration. I will make up stories. Sometimes I use sarcasm. It is easy to misunderstand if you are mostly familiar with another language. I told a joke and maybe you thought I was making fun of you. I wasn't. It was just a good joke and I remembered it after I looked up penjango. I had never heard that word before. 

Let me tell you who some of the people here are. You said Ann and I run this site. Neither of us do, though we both comment a lot. I can't stand Ann. It is not personal - personally maybe I would be okay with her. But here she does everything she can to run down Jehovah's Witnesses and their organization. Does she run down even God, like Alan does? I am not sure. I have to go back and check. But we are not friends. And we don't run the website.

The person who runs this site is The Librarian. I am pretty sure he is a Witness, but you can't know anything for sure on the internet. Many people, and apostates are among them, work hard to hide who and what they are, so you never know for sure. Even The Librarian is not the chief owner. The chief owner is Admin, and he may be someone else who comments a lot on other topics,  but it is a pure guess on my part and so I will not say.

21 hours ago, Foreigner said:

SO, DON’T EVER CLAIM YOUR BETTER THAN ME, JUST BECAUSE YOUR WHITE. I’M NOT A WITNESS YET, AND THE WAY IT LOOKS WITH THE FILTH HERE, I’M NOT FOR SURE I WANT TO BE ONE.

Proverbs 6: 16-19 tells about things God hates: Last on the list of seven is: "And anyone sowing contentions among brothers." I never argue with brothers. I will quit a discussion before I do that. Even with non-Witnesses I am nice and avoid arguing. But I am not nice to apostates. At first I am somewhat, until their motives, methods and persistence become manifest. Then, sometimes I will seek to verbally kneecap them. It is not really Christian that I try to do this. But if I am going to be disobedient to counsel and hang where these guys freely roam and launch attacks, I must grant myself that concession.

It will help you if you know that nobody here is a typical Witness. Most are not Witnesses at all. Many are apostates who once were Witnesses but are no longer. Many here who are Witnesses do not hesitate to correct God's organization, something I would never presume to do. That at least makes them atypical Witnesses. The typical Witness of Jehovah will be obedient to counsel and not hang out here. Some will come once or twice to explore, but as soon as they see there are many here that hate Witnesses and their organization, yet they are still given a platform to speak, they will leave. They will think of the Bible verses that says one should not hang out with such persons.

Okay? Here they do nothing but argue, and at best, you might see who is better with the head in this argument or that. But it is the heart that counts. No argument with the head can show what is in the heart.

We are not enemies, Foreigner. I don't want you to think that. I do not denigrate your writing skills. I do not think I am better than you or anyone else. I think well of you that you would even try communicating in a second language. I cannot do it.  I am sorry to confuse you. I didn't mean to.

[Arauna]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:51 AM, AlanF said:

I said above, this is entirely irrelevant. That scattering occurred a hundred years earlier, and those Jews were not part of the Return from Babylon.

WRONG!  

I agree with Foreigner -  AlanF is arrogant about things he is ignorant off.  He may have done number punching about the Biblical chronology and some dates but he does not have a clue about the living/social conditions of the time period  - which is important to assess timelines as to what really happened on the ground – the practicalities of life such as travelling, dispersion of information etc. 

Also biblical history - he has no clue of this. He mocks JWs  "mother" which is not our legally registered watchtower organization here on earth but actually refers to the heavenly organization in heaven - which of course he does not know of – so I give him credit for not knowing.  But by his consistent, offensive and abrasive attitude we all know which "father" taught him his manners. John 8:44    (Anyone can err, I am not proud of my behavior either, but he is consistently derogatory/dismissive/disdainful) – which most aggressive atheists usually are… so he cannot help himself. It is hard to reason with someone with these personality qualities.

 

The above quote of Alan is another FALSEHOOD which Mr AlanF is unaware of because he is following the ideas of useless Jewish scholars who deny their own history because they are atheist….. and the rest of the Jewish nation who do not follow the Torah (bible) but regard the Mishnah/Talmud as the highest authority - which is the human oral tradition - that Jesus rejected when he was on earth.

Yes, not the entire the original nation of Israel returned and were scattered, which in modern times gave rise to claims of people's all over the world that they are the lost tribes because they have traditions similar to the Jews.

 

What does the Bible itself say!

The Bible gives a long list of the number of peoples who returned from Babylon – stipulating the family heads from the 12 tribes (and the goods). It also states that there were professing Israelites and Levites among them, who could not give proof of their tribal ancestry (genealogy), so there were some religious restrictions placed on the Levites. (Some of the scriptures quoted below.)

 

The LAND was divided into 12 territories in the time of Joshua and by Jewish law – this land was to remain in the ownership of these tribes.  A Jewish woman who inherited land had to marry within the tribe so the LAND would remain the property of the tribe - according to Mosaic LAW from Jehovah. So, Israel/Juda would not have come back from Babylon, after being punished by God for disobeying the law, and then break this very law by the rightful tribes being denied their land or another tribe taking over the land. Each tribe would have claimed their own ancestral land.

 

So again what does the Bible say happened…..

Prophecy Isiah 10

1.   A remnant to return – :  Jacob was the father of all 12 tribes

 

²¹  Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. ²²  For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return.

 

2.  Prophecies which promised return of members of all 12 tribes which came from the lions of Jacob – and Israel and Juda are mentioned separately - in many prophecies:

Jer 30 –

³  For “look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will gather the captives of my people, Israel and Judah,” says Jehovah, “and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they will possess it once again.”’”

¹⁰  “And you, my servant Jacob, do not be afraid,” declares Jehovah,“And do not be terrified, O Israel. For I will save you from far awayAnd your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return and be calm and undisturbed,With no one to make them afraid.”

¹⁸  This is what Jehovah says: “Here I am gathering the captives of the tents of Jacob, And I will have pity for his tabernacles.

 

3.   Jehovah will collect them from the LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES (not just the satrap of Babylon) – so they will return from very far away

Ezekiel 39:27

When I bring them back from the peoples and collect them together from the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’

 

4.    

They will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them and the LAND will be cultivated

Amos 9: 14 + 15

will gather back the captives of my people Israel, And they will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them; They will plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.’ ¹⁵  ‘I will plant them on their land,And they will never again be uprooted From their land that I have given them,’ says Jehovah your God.”

Juda mentioned separately here: Zep 2:7

 

5.   When the Sabbaths were paid on the land:

2Chronicles 36: 21 – Sabbaths paid

to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years.

 

 

6.   Cyrus took Title of the ‘king of the four corners of the earth’ on New Year festival Nissan 538 BCE……an emperor with 120 vassals/satraps. Cyrus appointed Darius the Mede as the regent of the satrap of Babylon directly after the fall of Babylon Sept/Oct 539BCE. Cyrus came back for the New Years Festival. After the 12 day New Year’s Festival he issued his edict for nations to take their Gods back to their homelands – Israel and Juda could go back to rebuild the temple.

 

EZRA 1:2

“This is what King Cyrus of Persia says, ‘Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

(Read my previous comment on how important this New Year’s Festival was in Babylon and also how the prediction of 2-horned goat called Media and Persia would overthrow the king of Babylon)

 

7.   How large was the remnant which were gathered from the empire?

42,360 men and an additional 7,537 slaves and singers made the initial trip back- which took at least 4 months.  This would bring the number of the first part of the “remnant” to return to over 200,000 people when one includes wives and children. Some came from the farthest reaches of the empire - from all over Persia

Ezra 1:5 to Ezra 2

In Ezra to it tells us that Judah and Benjamin, who came from the jurisdictional district of Babylon, took their own cities in Judah and Jerusalem – it names the elders of the families

From verse 3: gives us the leader’s names from the other tribes of Israel.

Verse 2b: The number of the Israelite men included:……..

Verse 58 + 59 – some were not able to verify their ancestry!

All the temple servants and the sons of the servants of Solʹo·mon were 392. ⁵⁹  And these went up from Tel-meʹlah, Tel-harʹsha, Cheʹrub, Adʹdon, and Imʹmer, but they were unable to verify their paternal house and their origin, as to whether they were Israelites: 

Also verse 62:

These looked for their records to establish their genealogy, but they did not find them, so they were disqualified from the priesthood. ⁶³  The governor told them that they could not eat from the most holy things until there was a priest who could consult the Uʹrim and Thumʹmim.

 

We see that this repatriation was not a mish-mash operation but done meticulously so everyone could claim their land and verify their tribal origins….

Jehovah inspired his Bible – it is all there!  It is a pity that scholars do not respect this book more! It is just a number punching exercise for them

⁶⁴  The total number of the entire congregation was 42,360, ⁶⁵  apart from their male and female slaves, who were 7,337; they also had 200 male and female singers. ⁶⁶  Their horses were 736, their mules 245, ⁶⁷  their camels 435, their donkeys 6,720. ⁶⁸  When they arrived at the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the paternal houses made voluntary offerings+ for the house of the true God, to rebuild it on its own site.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

If a person gives comments on this forum and the syntax is not perfect it would be gracious to accommodate them and not mock them.

I could not agree more. Punctuation, however, is a different thing - for that is deliberate.

hehehehe :)))))))))   (I say - 'Go for it!' - the moron)

I know of only one person who does that. And it is not Foreigner.

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley wrote:

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:: Ah, now pulling the race card. Racist? Not only do people on this board, like JW Insider and me, not know if you're white, brown, black, green, blue or purple -- we don't care.

Within reason, one should not be put down for playing "the race card."

 

I agree, except that in Foreigner's case he's not being reasonable, since no one knows his race, and no one knew that his native language is Spanish until he himself revealed it. Nor will anyone know where he's from unless he himself reveals it.

Clearly then, Foreigner's pulling "the race card" is due to his knowing he has no rational arguments. Obviously he has an inferiority complex and a big chip on his shoulder.

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... from just a quick scan, I don't see where race and pendejo have anything to do with each other. Is it white trash? It seems that it could just as well be brown trash.

It's a cussword/slur that can refer to anyone you don't like.

AlanF

[AlanF]

Foreigner wrote:

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:: I had never heard this word. I looked it up, of course, because I will not tolerate any disrespect for AlanF. It is not our place to talk back to him. It is his place to tell us, and all we can do is just hope he can keep the insults under reasonable control.

YOU WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY DISRESPECT FOR ALANF. WHO ARE YOU TO DEMAND THAT ANYONE RESPECTS WHITE TRASH, ESPECIALLY AFTER COMMENTING, BROWN TRASH?

 

LOL! Can anyone get any more clueless?

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A PERSON THAT DENIGRATE OTHERS FOR THEIR WRITING SKILLS IS THE STUPIDEST PERSON ALIVE.

So says he who began the denigration. He's even so unthinking as not to realize he admits it:

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THE EXAMPLE I OFFERED OF HIS OWN FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE *JEFFRO*

 

Foreigner's denigration of others' writing skills began before anyone poked fun at his own. And of course, he's too thick to realize that others' poking fun was a direct reaction to his hypocrisy and to his ignorance of the language in which he presumed to instruct others.

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ILLUSTRATED HOW MORONIC HIS CHILDISH ATTEMPTS ARE TO IMPOSE HIS WRITING SKILLS ON ANYONE. SINCE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, ALSO MAKE MISTAKES, YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN ANYONE.

 

Of course intelligent people make mistakes. But you did not simply make a mistake -- you castigated Jeffro for making "mistakes" that were only your own misunderstanding of English. And when you were corrected, not only were you too arrogant to admit your mistakes, but you doubled down on them and made nasty remarks.

Here comes the completely ignorant result of Foreigner's chip on his shoulder.

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SO, DON’T EVER CLAIM YOUR BETTER THAN ME, JUST BECAUSE YOUR WHITE.

Yes indeed, Foreigner can see through our screens that we're white.

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I’M NOT A WITNESS YET, AND THE WAY IT LOOKS WITH THE FILTH HERE, I’M NOT FOR SURE I WANT TO BE ONE.

 

Oh, please do go on to become a Witness -- you're perfect material.

AlanF

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley wrote:

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No no no @Foreigner - you misunderstand me.

You have called @AlanF a pengabo.

 

LOL! The word is "pendejo". As in:

Chinga tu madre, pendejo!

You remind me of the JW elders I've heard correct someone's English with this:

"Make sure your pronounciation is correct!"

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That means you and I are friends. Nobody thinks Alan is a big jerk more than me. I was being sarcastic writing what I did and you didn't realize that. I am sorry for that. It is my fault.

No, it's Foreigner's fault for having such a big chip on his shoulder that he's incapable of thinking clearly.

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Look at my posts. I have posted two in a row which are nothing but making him look bad by his own mouth - quoting insult after insult of his that he has hurled at other people.

Make me look bad? Actually what you've done is prove beyond any doubt that your concern is trivia -- not the topic of this thread -- that you're quite incapable of even participating in the topic of the thread.

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When I write I use humor. I use exaggeration. I will make up stories. Sometimes I use sarcasm. It is easy to misunderstand if you are mostly familiar with another language.

 

Yes, Spanish speakers have no concept of those things.

AlanF

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley gave as an example of an insult:

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:: By all means, show us how this should be done.

Yes indeed, asking a True JW to provide evidence or proof is insulting. After all, the only evidence such a person needs is that God's infallible spokemen, the Governing Body, have spoken.

AlanF

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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:: who live "in towns and villages" are also known as people who live in cities in the Bible, s

It was a system of city states which each controlled their jurisdiction.

 

I've already shown you why this was not true in Babylonia. Rather, there were settlements of all sizes throughout the realm. All were subject to the king of Babylon.

Somehow you're confusing the fact that city-states were the norm in each individual "nation" in the Mediterranean region with the false notion that many of the cities in Babylonia and ruled by the king of Babylon were also semi-independant city-states.

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This system - as I already showed in my previous comment - was also at work in the Greek empire.  The wars of Xerxes (Persia) with Sparta and Athens served to unify all the city states into an empire which later under Alexander the Great conquered vast territories. .   During the middle ages we see similar kind of systems in Europe under feudal lords. Germany was unified into one country by Bismarck and Italy was unified by Cavour.

Completely irrelevant to the point at issue here.

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:: However, I believe getting in the last wheat harvest while preparing must be noted.

I did not say this - someone else did..

 

 

Sorry -- my mistake. It was allensmith28 who said that.

However, your subsequent arguments about "city-states" supported his basic claim.

AlanF

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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:: I said above, this is entirely irrelevant. That scattering occurred a hundred years earlier, and those Jews were not part of the Return from Babylon.

WRONG!

 

Evidence?

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I agree with Foreigner -  AlanF is arrogant about things he is ignorant off.  He may have done number punching

To be pedagogical, the phrase is "number crunching".

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about the Biblical chronology and some dates but he does not have a clue about the living/social conditions of the time period  - which is important to assess timelines as to what really happened on the ground – the practicalities of life such as travelling, dispersion of information etc. Also biblical history - he has no clue of this.

And you do? Again you've presented no actual evidence -- only speculation. Speculation that I've largely debunked.

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He mocks JWs  "mother" which is not our legally registered watchtower organization here on earth but actually refers to the heavenly organization in heaven - which of course he does not know of – so I give him credit for not knowing.

I'm fully aware of the doctrines of JWs on this. Obviously you are not. Let's examine again what I quoted:

"With thankful hearts we acknowledge God’s mercy and gratefully and willingly show our respect for Jehovah’s organization, for she is our mother and the beloved wife of our heavenly Father, Jehovah God."--"The Watchtower", May 1, 1957, p. 285

My reference to "Mommy" was obviously satirical, but like most satire contains real truth. What truth? That whatever JWs receive from "Jehovah's organization" in reality comes from a source owned by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. You can confirm this yourself by looking at the copyright on the jw.org website, or in any Watch Tower publication.

In JW doctrinal theory, the flow of organizational information is like this:

Jehovah -> Jesus -> Angels -> Governing Body -> JW community

In reality, it's more like this:

Governing Body <-> Governing Body Helpers <-> various Watch Tower owned corporations like Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. -> various JW officials such as elders -> individual JWs.

The entire concept of "Jehovah's heavenly organization" is therefore a figment of the imagination of JW leaders, promulgated for some 100 years.

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But by his consistent, offensive and abrasive attitude

I have always treated you with respect. Why? Because you're far above your JW kin in terms of reasonable discussion.

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we all know which "father" taught him his manners. John 8:44    (Anyone can err, I am not proud of my behavior either, but he is consistently derogatory/dismissive/disdainful) – which most aggressive atheists usually are… so he cannot help himself. It is hard to reason with someone with these personality qualities.

Actually it's much harder to reason with someone who refuses to be reasoned with, like most JWs and certainly like most of the ones who post on this forum.

These JWs consistently ignore most of what I write, because they're quite incapable of refuting most of it, except by quoting questionable sources like young-earth creationists. They quickly realize that to give a substantive answer they would have to do some real research for once in their lives, and they instinctively realize that that would be dangerous to their faith in Mommy.

You mistake a solid refutation of your and the Watch Tower's claims for unreasonableness. You're invoking your Watch Tower training in this: "How dare you contradict Jehovah's organization!"

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The above quote of Alan is another FALSEHOOD which Mr AlanF is unaware of because he is following the ideas of useless Jewish scholars who deny their own history because they are atheist….. and the rest of the Jewish nation who do not follow the Torah (bible) but regard the Mishnah/Talmud as the highest authority - which is the human oral tradition - that Jesus rejected when he was on earth.

 

Complete nonsense. Most of what I've written is exclusively from the Bible.

And you're being hypocritical, because many of your source references are non-biblical.

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Yes, not the entire the original nation of Israel returned and were scattered, which in modern times gave rise to claims of people's all over the world that they are the lost tribes because they have traditions similar to the Jews.

That's supported by the Bible itself and by secular history: the northern nation of Israel was deported by the Assyrians around 700 BCE and scattered. Where they ended up is anyone's guess -- and the Bible gives no information.
 

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What does the Bible itself say!

The Bible gives a long list of the number of peoples who returned from Babylon – stipulating the family heads from the 12 tribes (and the goods). It also states that there were professing Israelites and Levites among them, who could not give proof of their tribal ancestry (genealogy), so there were some religious restrictions placed on the Levites. (Some of the scriptures quoted below.)

 

You disprove your own claims: these people returned from Babylonia -- not from anywhere else.

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The LAND was divided into 12 territories in the time of Joshua and by Jewish law – this land was to remain in the ownership of these tribes.  A Jewish woman who inherited land had to marry within the tribe so the LAND would remain the property of the tribe - according to Mosaic LAW from Jehovah. So, Israel/Juda would not have come back from Babylon, after being punished by God for disobeying the law, and then break this very law by the rightful tribes being denied their land or another tribe taking over the land. Each tribe would have claimed their own ancestral land.

 

Pure speculation -- and contradicting what the Bible itself sayss.

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So again what does the Bible say happened…..

[ Lots of speculation and dicey prophetic interpretation deleted ]

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We see that this repatriation was not a mish-mash operation but done meticulously so everyone could claim their land and verify their tribal origins….

All of whom came from Babylonia.

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Jehovah inspired his Bible – it is all there!  It is a pity that scholars do not respect this book more! It is just a number punching exercise for them

You mistake your own private speculations and interpretations for what the Bible actually says.

AlanF

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley wrote:

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:: If a person gives comments on this forum and the syntax is not perfect it would be gracious to accommodate them and not mock them.

I know of only one person who does that. And it is not Foreigner.

 

Yes, indeed it is Foreigner. Look at my post on page 29 of this thread, which quotes exactly where he went wrong. You can also reference his original post on page 23 of this thread.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, and not say that you're deliberately lying.

Furthermore, you won't find a single instance where I took Arauna to task for minor mistakes in English grammar. Usage, occasionally, but one would think that that would be appreciated, just as I always appreciated being corrected when learning other languages.

AlanF

[AlanF]

allensmith28 wrote:

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Yes, Foreigner. I, believe the FIRST clue that you’re are from a different country and English might NOT be your first language could have been NOTICED by You’re, handle, *FOREIGNER*.

Wow, thank you for pointing out such a mysterious fact!

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Where would the actual destruction of Judah and Jerusalem, have started? 607BC-604BC, 598BC or 587BC-586BC?

Already dealt with on page 28 of this thread.

AlanF