607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Arauna]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—

Yes - the domination of Israel is the primary reason for the mention of the 70 years.  Babylon put themselves on "high"  - above the nation of Jehovah (which is part of the main theme of the Bible).

All the prophecies in the bible which indicate other nations (empires) dominating Jehovah's people has to do with the 'gentile times".  How gentiles would dominate the nation of God.

[Arauna]

11 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Carchemish

These dates were made to coincide with Egyptian dates.  As I have pointed out many times before, the Egyptian chronology is faulty as it was laid down in stone shortly after Egyptology started in the early 19th century. There are many dissidents of this chronology but they are not allowed to dig in Egypt..... there is intellectual monopoly on this.

The most accurate way to test the date of 607 BCE is to go to the Greek sources (olympiads) - they are more accurate and the PIVITOL date is the death of Cyrus from which on can determine the length of his rule and how long it would take the Israelite nation to return to their LAND.

[AlanF]

35 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If you read my contribution  (above) you will notice that Darius was appointed as soon as the city was taken  - it would become a satrap in a greater empire - hence the title of king of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world - an imperial title. He took the title in Nissan 538 BCE.

 

I'm aware of when the Bible says that Darius began ruling -- in October, 539 BCE. After all it is well established that that is when Babylon fell to Cyrus' armies, and Dan. 5:30-31 states: "That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom." And the Bible gives no information about how long Darius the Mede was in power or exactly what his relationship to Cyrus was. We do know that even the Watch Tower agrees with these datings. Why don't you agree?

AlanF

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, AlanF said:

The 70 years refers to a time of Babylonian supremacy, not of desolation of anything (Jer. 25:11-12; 27; 29:10)

This scripture in Jeremia also refers to the LAND -  also read Isiah 1 which I quoted earlier in a previous contribution - the LAND would be without the usual planting. 

The root cause::  Israel's problem was not hegemony - but religious.  God did not send them to Babylon because he wanted a new ruler for them on a whim - it was a punishment because they had defiled the LAND with bad religious practice and not keeping the Sabbaths.

So after 70 years when they return and the land is becoming active like before  

[Witness]

On 1/10/2018 at 6:41 AM, Arauna said:

We have clear instructions on how elders must be chosen - no females.  So if an anointed were on earth now in human form (before obtaining her heavenly calling where there will be no biological females - should they then serve as elders - now? 

 

On 1/10/2018 at 12:38 PM, Witness said:

Firstly, anointed ones can be sealed while on earth. 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Pet 1:19

Secondly, we have the example of Deborah, a prophetess.  Judges 4:4

In 1 Cor 14:34, Paul says, women cannot teach, “according to the law”. He eventually drew away from teaching according to the Jewish law, which viewed women as unclean. 

The examples we have that Jesus abolished this practice is found in Matt 9:20-22 (Eph 2:15,16)

In Gal 2:21 and 3:1,2 Paul said it is through the hearing of faith, not the works of the law that the Spirit is received. 

Col 2:20-22 – “If you died with Christ to the elements of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations; “Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch”?  All these regulations refer to what is destined to perish by being used up; they are human commands and doctrines.”

I can’t see the law which was embellished with Pharisaical doctrine phasing out immediately.  But through Paul’s writings, we see the change.

Rom 16:1,2 -  “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae.  So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many—and of me also.”

1 Cor 11:4 - "Every man that prays or prophesies having something on his head shames his head;  but every woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head”  

In 1 Cor 11:2-15, you’ll see that Paul began rationalizing on the need for woman to wear a head covering.  Her hair is a symbol of glory; a symbol of authority.  “For her hair is given to her as a covering. ¹⁶ If anyone wants to argue about this, we have no other custom, nor do the churches of God.” 

A prophet teaches, and it is one of the many gifts within anointed Body.  Rom 12:6-8 

“The next day we left and came to Caesarea, where we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the Seven, and stayed with him.  This man had four virgin daughters who prophesied.”  Acts 21:8,9

"I wish all of you spoke in other tongues, but even more that you prophesied. The person who prophesies is greater than the person who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be built up."  1 Cor 14:5

Gal 3:28  "There is no (literal) Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; since you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This wasn’t written in the future tense, but the present.

 

 It is incredible that scriptures proving that the anointed priesthood are capable of teaching, as well as required to, no matter if they are male or female, is down-voted. Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9

 Chalk one up for the Body of Elders, and reject the Body of Christ.  This is called “trampling” the Temple by spiritual “Gentiles”.  Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:15

The role of the Levitical priesthood was to minister in the temple. Under Christ, they are the Temple. 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16  They were to teach the people the law of God – today, it is written on their hearts, for a reason; to teach the people God’s laws.  2 Cor 3:3; Heb 8:8-10  They prayed for God’s guidance for all. Heb 13:15; 1 Tim 4:16

INSTEAD, an elder body has assumed these roles and blunders hopelessly in leading the flock. The world sees it through the many lawsuits.   The organization is a delusion of perceived righteousness. 2 Thess 2:11   Heb 8:8-10 will NOT be fulfilled within the Watchtower, but outside its whitewashed walls that are crumbling through topics such as this one addressing their relentless twisting of dates to uphold 1914.   

“He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.”  Dan 7:25

This is the organizational arrangement that is oppressing God’s priesthood, and prophesying “by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.”  -  1914, and all previous failed dates.  2 Thess 2:2

It is the identical “He” of Rev 13:1, the Beast from the “Gentile” “Sea” of mankind. 

“It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”  Rev 13:7

Who, in the world, is,

1.        Oppressing the anointed ones

2.       Changing God’s set times and laws

?

Only the Watchtower organization.  Rev 18:4-8; Heb 8:11,12

"The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven.  He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”   Mark 8:11,12

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

...this is what is known on a Generation Starship as "Comic Relief" ... when the trip gets so tiresome that tempers start to fray and burst forth. .... like this "607" discussion.

[AlanF]

Arauna wrote:

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AlanF is too quick to "poo" other people’s thoughts but I see he makes a lot of wild hmm… “scholarly” statements for which he has no proof for either!

I either have given or can give proof for what I say.

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They just lived in cities??  LOL Get real AlanF...  it was not 2017 AD …..but 537 BCE.

I didn't say "just". I said this:

<< The Jews and other captives lived in the cities, like Daniel, and were generally business people. They were not farmers. >>

Probably I should have said, "The Jews lived mostly in the cities". This is based on the common understanding among historians that it was mostly the elite Jews who were deported. As this reference states ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-babylonian-exile ):

<< The deportations were large, but certainly didn't involve the entire nation. Somewhere around 10,000 people were forced to relocate to the city of Babylon . . . Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Chaldeans, only deported the most prominent citizens of Judah: professionals, priests, craftsmen, and the wealthy. The "people of the land" (am-hares ) were allowed to stay. . . the deported Jews formed their own community in Babylon and retained their religion, practices, and philosophies. >>

Here is another ( http://www.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Ancient-tablets-reveal-daily-life-of-exiled-Jews-in-Babylon-2500-years-ago-389864 ):

<< Technically not slaves, Nebuchadnezzar allowed the Judeans in Babylonia to become merchants or assist administering his growing kingdom.

“They were free to go about their lives; they weren’t slaves,” Vukosavovic said. “Nebuchadnezzar wasn’t a brutal ruler in that respect. He knew he needed the Judeans to help revive the struggling Babylonian economy.” >>

And another ( http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html ):

<< The Jewish people survived in Babylon because the Babylonian policy allowed the Jews to settle in towns and villages along the Chebar River, which was an irrigation channel. The Jews were allowed to live together in communities, they were allowed to farm and perform other sorts of labor to earn income. Many Jews eventually became wealthy. This was probably because of the influence of certain Jews who ministered in the palace of Babylon, like Daniel and his friends. >>

People who live "in towns and villages" are also known as people who live in cities in the Bible, since in OT usage a "city" can mean what we today call a village of a few dozen people.

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By your comments I can see that you do not have any understanding of how the people lived....

My above references prove that it is you who don't understand. The above quotations clearly show that farming by the Jews was a tiny part of farming in Babylonia.

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Dear AllanF this is for you:

When one reads into the scriptures what you ‘want’ it is called speculation.

 

It's also called eisegesis -- something that Watch Tower followers are very good at.

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I quoted several scriptures referring to ‘70 years’ and you concluded it only refers to ‘hegemony’.

Right, because that is what the appropriate scriptures actually say. Of course, I have repeatedly quoted them to prove this.

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Please look again at:-  Jeremiah 25:11 refers to the LAND which must be desolate for 70 years. “And this whole LAND shall be a desolation.”

Let's look at the rest of the relevant context of Jer. 25:

<< 8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘“Because you would not obey my words, 9 I am sending for all the families of the north,” declares Jehovah, “sending for King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin. 10 I will put an end to the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing from them, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’

12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time. >>

In context, then, and in view of my above-quoted references, the phrase "the land will become ruined (or desolated)" means that the land will become largely devoid of inhabitants and will contain a mere ruined shadow of its once vibrant community. Furthermore, verse 9 says that this happens to "this land and ... its inhabitants and ... all these surrounding nations." And "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years." Which nations? The Jews and the nations round about.

Because we know that many of the "nations round about" did not go into captivity at all, much less for 70 years, the phrase "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" cannot mean that they would all become captive for 70 years.

And as I have repeatedly shown, Jer. 27  and 29:10 prove that neither the Jews nor any other nation round about were firmly destined to go into captivity, but were firmly destined to serve the Babylonian hegemony for 70 years:

<< 'the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,' declares Jehovah, 'to cultivate it and dwell in it.' >> -- Jer. 27:11.

<< For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfil to you my promise and bring you back to this place. >> -- Jer. 29:10; ESV

And of course, the fact that all these things happened to the Jews exactly as prophesied, after they failed to submit to Babylon, is shown by the following fulfillments of Jer. 25:12 described in Daniel and 2 Chronicles:

<< 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: MEʹNE, MEʹNE, TEʹKEL, and PARʹSIN.
26 “This is the interpretation of the words: MEʹNE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end.
27 “TEʹKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found lacking.
28 “PEʹRES, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians.”
29 Then Bel·shazʹzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and placed a gold necklace around his neck; and they heralded concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom.
30 That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom  >> -- Dan. 5:25-30

<< [Nebuchadnezzar] carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign . . . >> -- 2 Chron. 36:20

When was Belshazzar's kingdom divided and given to the Medes and the Persians? In October, 539 BCE. When did Jehovah "call to account the king of Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE. Until when were the Jews servants to Nebuchadnezzar "and his sons"? Until October, 539 BCE. Therefore, when were the 70 years "completed for Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE.

Once again, it is you who are guilty of eisegesis.

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Most of the inhabitants were removed so there was no large scale planting and the land was not kept clean of wild animals.  When they went back to their land they had to clear it to start planting and get on with everyday life – as prophesied. It does not mean the land was barren of people but that  it was laid waste.

Yes, we know all that.

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Why is your reasoning that these scriptures ONLY refer to ‘hegemony’ faulty?

When in doubt, always go back to :- root cause:  what was the root cause for their exile? Definitely not because Jehovah had a whim to put them under foreign hegemony without a reason…. The reason was because of the law regarding the LAND which must lie fallow every 7th year; together with this, they were not obeying other laws…. and the land on which they were living, was defiled – according to scripture above.

 

Hmm, Jeremiah clearly states that if the Jews and other nations humbly submitted to Babylon, they would not have been deported, but would have been allowed to stay on their land. But that means Jehovah, through Jeremiah is contradicting himself by means of Isaiah! Wow, you've certainly solved many exegetical problems this way!

Actually there is a very good explanation for the apparent contradiction. You can find it if you look hard. Hint: Jeremiah says nothing about a sabbath rest for the land.

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From whatever angle one looks at this debate: from hegemony side, or the land (Jerusalem) being desolate, there is more than enough evidence for 537BCE.

There is ZERO evidence, just speculation. And you've given zero evidence, just speculation that contradicts many clear scriptures.

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Cyrus entered from the north when the Tigris river was lower (September) and the battle of Opis took place in October 539 BCE so he could get control of the Median wall. Nabonidus fled to Sippar.  Cyrus followed him to Sippar and so the hegemony was not ‘complete’ while Nabonidus was free.

Continuing to contradict Daniel 5: << God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end. . .
your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians. . . That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom . >>

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He later gave himself up in Babylon because he had no allies.  Cyrus went ahead and appointed his Satrap, Darius the Mede, and the administrators of the new government.  Then in, 538 BCE, when ALL Babylonia was in his control, Cyrus came back to assume the imperial title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four corners of the world"”  ….

Again contradicting Daniel, Jeremiah and 2 Chronicles -- and even the Watch Tower Society, which agrees that Cyrus began ruling over Babylon in October, 539 BCE.

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All Babylonian kings were inaugurated ONLY in the temple of Marduk since the earliest of ancient times on New Year’s day – some of the Syrian kings were also inaugurated in this temple.  So it was on the following New Year that he took this title 538 BCE.

Again contradicting Mommy Watch Tower on the dates. There is a difference between an inauguration that occurs at the beginning of a king's 1st regnal year and an accession to the throne that occurs when he actually becomes king in his accession year.

[ Mostly irrelevant exposition snipped ]

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Cyrus thereafter issued his Decree in 538 BCE for the return of the Jews. This date is corroborated all over the internet…..go check it out.

Again disagreeing with Mommy Watch Tower that Cyrus began his rule in October, 539 BCE, and that his 1st regnal year began in Nisan, 538.

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So what “process” did this repatriation involve?

In 538 BCE: . . .

 

Exactly the same logistics are involved in a 538 scenario and a 537 scenario, to within one month, as I've shown in my post above. Even scholar JW has admitted this.

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The date of 537BCE cannot be disproved because no one knows exactly how quickly the Jews moved to Jerusalem.

But we all, including Mommy Watch Tower, agree that the journey must have been about four months.

Here's your problem: since 538 and 537 have pretty much the same logistics, there is no way to decide between them based on those logistics. The ONLY way to decide is by OTHER information -- information such as provided by combining the accounts in Ezra and Josephus, as I have repeatedly explained. That information breaks the tie in favor of 538.

If you disagree with my argument, then by all means show why combining Ezra and Josephus is wrong, or shaky or whatever you like. But you already know you can't, which is why you haven't touched it.

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Those moved by Jehovah’s spirit could have been so excited that they organized themselves faster than we would expect. Reasonableness and logical thinking of the steps needed to start a new life in a neglected place, helps to make the right conclusion.

Indeed.

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But if you are not reasonable then one makes wild statements about 1914, for example:  the scope of disasters in the 100 years before 1914.

It is a simple fact that the risk of death due to earthquakes in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times as great as in the 20th century. That's easy enough to prove for yourself, by spending some time on the website of the National Earthquake Information Service and finding its calculator for earthquake statistics.

The other major sorts of disasters -- famine, pestilence and war -- are more difficult to find statistics on, but any careful study will prove what I said. For example, it was fairly common before the 20th century for 10-30% of the population of a fairly large region to be killed by famine, pestilence and war. While the 20th century figures are large in an absolute sense, they are far smaller in percentage. Why do you think the world has a population explosion?

In "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" Harvard author Steven Pinker marshalls a massive amount of proof that on the whole, violence in the world has declined. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature .

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This has no substance

Where's your evidence? I'll warn you, though: everything the Watch Tower has published on this has been thoroughly debunked.

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and comes from a deep desire to claim that JWs are wrong about 1914.

Actually it's the other way around. The complete failure of every visible thing that C. T. Russell predicted for 1914, and the total failure of the Watch Tower's claims about disasters since 1914, result in the claim that JWs are wrong about 1914.

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Whether by accident or not – the evidence on ground zero proves that Jehovah helped the slave to understand this.

LOL! Which slave? Russell himself? The one that was comprised of all the anointed since 1919? Or the one that appeared sometime after 2000 (sorry, I don't keep up with the dizzying rate of changes).

Remember that Russell got every prediction of visible events wrong. Some track record for "the slave", eh?

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Reputable historians that are scholars have said the 1914 was the year the world changed forever.

So what? There have been many turning points in history. Some more significant than 1914.

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To watch these fights about 1914 by such early books as written in 1823 to me is silly (archeology was not properly established then).

Why don't you write to Mommy Watch Tower and tell them to back off?

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So when you argue about these things it is a ploy away from the subject (but related) to discredit JWs early history…..

It's no ploy. It's a sincere and concerted effort to show in what ways the Watch Tower has lied and lied about its history. This is really a public service. Do you really want to be part of a religion that has lied to you so broadly?

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If anyone looks back at the early history of any organization one can discredit it because we look at it with the knowledge we have at present…. which is not a fair and proper judgement because one should understand the ‘era’ they were living in to make this judgment.

Meaningless generic rationalizations. The fact is that at all times, Watch Tower leaders have claimed to be either inspired or totally guided by God himself, or Jesus, or the angels, for each action they've taken and each thing they've written. They continue in this tradition today by demanding that JWs treat their words and actions as if they came from Jehovah himself, even while admitting that they're fallible and have made many errors. This practice is called "talking out of both sides of your mouth". Of course, they're never in error right now, and God help the JW who disputes them.

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(I think they did pretty well if one thinks that they made many connections just on the knowledge from the Bible without archeology.)

Actually there was much archaeology available by 1875 to guide them to conclusions accurate by today's standards. But it appears that God did not see fit to guide them to it. For example, it appears that God failed to guide them to the year 607 BCE for the start of the Gentile Times until 1943, and to 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction until 1944. Such a joker God is!

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An awakening – but all the puzzle was not yet fitted……they did a good job with what they had….because they had a love for the bible and God.

Lots of people claim such love, and look what that has accomplished in the world.

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At the time the early JWs wrote in all sincerity up to 130 years ago – they did not think that some ‘modern’ scholar would come a hundred years later and ‘nitpick’ every word to check out the ‘semantics’.

So what? The point is that they always claimed that God guided/inspired them and they treated those with different views as heretics.

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The archeology available today has only come through the translation of thousands of tablets – especially the last 40 years…..  

To a certain extent, yes. But plenty was available even before 1900 to allow the formation of accurate conclusions. For example, around 1912 one of Russell's closest advisors informed him that Russell's traditional date of 606 BCE was wrong, and gave him appropriate historical information to prove it. But Russell failed to update "Studies in the Scriptures" appropriately. The 1917 book "The Finished Mystery" also used 607 rather than 606. So did a 1931 booklet. So why did it take until 1943 and 1944 to get the date to what it is today? God certainly had nothing to do with guiding any of this nonsense, contrary to what Watch Tower leaders have always claimed.

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Reign of Cyrus (538BCE when he was crowned king of all the earth):

Again: Nisan 538 BCE was the beginning of Cyrus' 1st regnal year -- not his accession to the throne of Babylon.

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Excerpt from Josephus: In the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity

Try giving a source reference: "Antiquities of the Jews", Book 11, Chapter 1, Section 1 (a.k.a. "Antiquities", XI,1,1).

Yet again mistaking the 1st regnal year for the accession to the throne.

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Conditions during the captivity - ALLEN F has it wrong!

Nope. Again read my above quotations.

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The boys from the ruling class were trained at the palace of Nebuchadnezzar.  The largest settlements were villages located along the Chebar River (which was an irrigation channel for agriculture).  The Jews (Juda) were allowed to live together in communities and they were allowed to farm and make all sorts of things to earn a living.  Some became rich…  They needed to keep their farming skills for their return…to work the land again.  They would have planted vegetables and feed for animals.

This is similar to what I quoted above, but it does not contradict my basic point: most of the Jewish captives, being of the elite, were businessmen or artisans of some sort, not farmers. They would have been concentrated in and near Babylon, in villages and towns and in Babylon itself.

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One can get almost 4 generations in 70 years – if they did not keep up their skills for farming their children will go back to Israel with no skills to sow etc.

Except that the many "people of the land" that remained in Judah forgot how to grow food, right?

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I see Jehovah’s hand in the circumstance that many of the Judeans were placed at the Chebar River and Ezekiel was there with them - if I remember correctly.

Nice speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The overall point I made is that the Jews were close enough to Babylon that news of an Edict of Release would have spread extremely rapidly.
 
AlanF

[AlanF]

23 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Just to put things into perspective to those that get confused. AlanF, Ann O'Maly, and JWinsider, claims from 609BC-587BC=22 years. Where does the 19 years in SCRIPTURE, the SAME 3-year difference being argued about for the WT chronology, fall, then? SPECULATION IS ALL YOU HAVE!!!!!

More incoherent gobble-de-goop.

AlanF

[AlanF]

Foreigner wrote:

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Nana Fofana:: And, so as not to neglect 538

Here lies "Alanf'" and JWinsider" argument. That 538BC shouldn't be overlooked. The Jews received the edict in early 538BC and returned and arrived in late 538BC, thus fulfilling the scriptual70 years in 539BC as indicated by ALANF's friend and colleague Jeffro, not 538BC.

 

So far so good.

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Normal people should be able to add or subtract. 538BC+70=608BC. 1 year more than what the Watchtower has been claiming for a century. 539BC+70=609BC, NOT 608BC. 2 years more than what the Watchtower has been claiming for a century now.

Duh. The point is not about adding 70 to some date to go back 70 years, but what that 70 years means. Mommy Watch Tower claims it means 70 years of captivity and exile of the Jews, and total desolation of Judah. The Bible says it means 70 years of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East.

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This whole time, COJ proved nothing since the GENTILE TIMES would have started with the death of King Josiah in 609BC.

Nonsense. The Watch Tower's and C. T. Russell's notion of "the Gentile times" is unbiblical nonsense, based on a weak chain of speculation about various unrelated scriptures. JW Insider has shown that when one combines the references in Luke and Revelation to get something like "the Gentile times", one comes up with 1,260 years -- not 2,520 years. This is pretty much what John Aquila Brown came up with in his 1823 book.

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So, 1911 or 1914 when Jesus sat on the throne can still be applied, within a 3-year difference.

More speculation contradicted by the Bible:

<< Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." >> -- Matt. 28:18

Yet the Watch Tower Society claims that Jesus was given MORE THAN "all authority" in 1914!

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WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE RAYMOND FRANZ. That he jumped the gun, on sheer speculation.

Pure gobble-de-goop.

AlanF

[Arauna]

19 hours ago, AlanF said:

70 years ended in 539 BCE

The 70 years ended when Cyrus took the title of "King of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world" on NEW YEARS DAY (12 day yearly festival) Nissan 538 BCE.

Cyrus started his campaign in September 539 BCE when he crossed the Tigris with the subsequent Battle of Opis. After this he went after Nabonidus who had fled to Sippar - who managed to get away again from Sippar.  Babylon fell next.  Later Nabonidus gave himself up at Babylon because he had no allies.

Cyrus issued his edict shortly after his crowning allowing the Jews and other nations to take their gods with them - to their home. 

[AlanF]

Arauna wrote:

:: scientifically competent people

:: Unclear thinkers often spew out so many false or ridiculous ideas that debate, or even rational discussion, is impossible without clearing the field of the nonsense.

:: Keep in mind that Daniel had been made third ruler in Babylon by Belshazzar, with great fanfare (Dan. 5:29), and continued in a high position under Darius, so Daniel could well have known about Cyrus' coming Decree before it was officially announced. Daniel would then have communicated the news to his fellow captives, and it would have been spread among the Jews in Babylon very quickly.

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No proof of this unless you were one of the privileged to be there and hear the gossip!

Did I ever say that these notions constitute proof? No. What I've said or implied is that they constitute plausibility arguments that show why a scenario is possible. This is to contradict claims that the scenarios are impossible, made by Watch Tower apologists.

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As a scholar you would know that besides those trained to do official work for the government - most of the other Jews were stationed at the river Chebar and they would not be privy to palace gossip!

Of course -- unless Daniel or other officials decided to tell them.

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I have another hypothesis:  Daniel was a man to be trusted and knew when to speak and not to speak (otherwise he would not have survived so many years under the different tyrants ruling  Babylon) - a man to be trusted and who knew his place.

Generally, of course. But when Cyrus' armies overthrew the city, and Belshazzar was killed, to whom would Daniel and his close associates owe loyalty? First and foremost, to Jehovah. And given the actual account of his praying to God shortly after Babylon's overthrow, he certainly was eager to see the prophecies fulfilled, and would naturally have expressed his eagerness to other Jews.

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I would say - there is a greater possibility that he would wait until he was "officially" allowed to speak.

Pure speculation.

But my speculation is better than yours, nyah nyah nyah!

AlanF

[AlanF]

Arauna wrote:

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:: And if you claim that Darius ruled before Cyrus began his 1st regnal year in 538, y

If you read my contribution  (above) you will notice that Darius was appointed as soon as the city was taken  - it would become a satrap in a greater empire - hence the title of king of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world - an imperial title. He took the title in Nissan 538 BCE.

 

Your statements appear to be self-contradictory among various posts. Please set forth a clear timeline showing which king you think was appointed when, his years of reign, and so forth. Back up your timeline with solid source references. In particular, give source references for your claim that Darius "took the title in Nissan 538 BCE."

AlanF