JW.org Says Apostates are "Mentally Diseased"

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Thanks @Matthew9969 for using WT magazines. This articles shows how GB want to present us, how mental illness was not started with "apostates" in recent time.

Wording "mental illness" is connect with WT Society context about result, outcome that is seen in JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000 class. 

They numbered several reasons why some JW member thinks about self as King and Priest aka part of 144000. They say:

in 1996

-after a while they acknowledged that this was an error

-an emotional response

-perhaps physical or mental strain

in 2011

-past religious beliefs

-mental or emotional imbalance 

in 2016

-mistakenly think that they are anointed

-mental or emotional problems 

It is obvious how WT Society is organization who looks on one part of members as people who have not mental and emotional balance. Perhaps GB say so, because of Jesus words how he is send to ill, sick people, and that also including physical, mental and emotional defects.

But we see how GB put this explanation on exactly one specific class or group of individuals inside organization - "anointed". On all anointed individuals who are outside of GB... or Helpers. Well, here we see how few anointed  individuals who are in position to call themselves as FDS who sharing spiritual food, decided to sending message through publications how only them are mentally, physically and emotionally in perfect health. All other are in question.  

Well, where insane people living? Inside or outside sanatorium?  

Does this way of thinking actually come from the 'world' ?  It seems to be a away of taking away the credibility of people.

I'm sure it's the type of thing you see in films, when someone wants to make another person feel insecure, or wants to make a person doubt themselves. 

If in fact the Governing Body are NOT inspired, then how would they actually know if someone else was ?  And i do think their attitude is passed down to the elders. 

A bit off topic but I had a funny thought.

Sometimes the Organisation is compared to Noah's Ark. However there were only EIGHT humans in that Ark and the rest were dumb animals that were controlled by those EIGHT humans.

Um how many members of the Governing Body are there ? Oh yes EIGHT.  And who in control of the Org ? Those EIGHT humans. Does make a person wonder exactly what the Governing Body thinks of all the rest in their Ark. 

 

 

[Witness]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

There is every reason to believe that it is spoons that make us fat..

 

I'm using a spork from now on.  This gives me half a chance to stay sane and fit.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW members who think how they are sort of people who belongs to people known as 144000

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

[Guest Tom Henry]

On 11/10/2019 at 2:36 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Srecko: Tom said previously how every person who are not in line with Jesus teachings (JW or not JW) is mentally ill.

I continue to disagree with your word usage. I’m not referring to my comments but how you are handling your own.

The problem, you want to assess the GB are false teachers. That’s a matter of opinion. They conduct their teachings exactly as prescribed by scripture. Therefore, Jesus is the GB's teacher. I seriously doubt Jesus was a false teacher being a perfect man. I can see how some Jews thought he was, but that amounted to a historically bad opinion.

Another area is the phrase “mentally ill” versus “mentally diseased”. One projects and aligns with what scripture states as false teachers. Those of us that are, willing to subvert scripture by our own understanding, while the other phrase is indicating a state of mind. I believe that difference has already been answered by others.

The Watchtower is not suggesting people are crazy for being false teachers. If that is the impression you are getting, it is a false one.

Under the opinion given by you, there are 9.2 billion people on earth right now that can be considered, false teachers except you. I would dispute that.

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

there were only EIGHT humans in that Ark and the rest were dumb animals that were controlled by those EIGHT humans. Um how many members of the Governing Body are there ? Oh yes EIGHT.  And who in control of the Org ? Those EIGHT humans. 

You call yourself astute?

If you would use the head God gave you and focus, you would note that one GB member is eating a lot to be big as an elephant, one is stretching his neck like a giraffe, another growing stripes like a zebra, yet another shrieks like a macaw, and so forth. 

Look, everyone knows this. Why do you come to the table so ill-equipped in knowledge?

”My, what wolflike teeth you have, grandma”

”All the better to control you with, my dear.”

[Arauna]

On 11/10/2019 at 7:21 AM, Tom Henry said:

same way there are witnesses that condemn the way the Watchtower is running

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

[Guest Tom Henry]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It appears you have drawn your own conclusion with my comment. It appears everyone here is willing to set a dangerous precedence when they don’t get the full context of someone else comments. Be that as it may, you had plenty of bottled up emotion. It’s good to release it. How about doing that with everyone you think has an unsubstantiated grievance, and not limit it to just one or two.

The inference you promote is fundamental human rights. Do you believe, God’s word was written to expand on human rights?

What about the spiritual right that Jesus gave his life for? What about the right of our creator? I doubt God would condemn and punish the organization as he did with the Israelite's every time they criticized his messenger and had someone within act upon their own greed, yet the whole nation was punished for it, God wouldn't use the same criteria in modern times. Joshua 7:1-2, Ezekiel 35:5, Isaiah 24:1-2

I wouldn’t expect a witness to argue fundamental human rights, but the rights of our heavenly father. I will agree, no one should be silenced especially when someone criticizes a critic. That also sets a dangerous precedence when someone gives more power to those that oppose and reject an organization just for following in the footsteps of Christ and obeying God’s commands.

Too much emphasis is placed on 8 men rather than the worldwide brotherhood that is affected by such criticism in real time.

1 Peter 2:14-16

14or to governors as those sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

Psalm 31:18

18May lying lips be silenced, which speak with arrogance against the righteous, full of pride and contempt.

This should give you pause to reflect and set aside what your conclusion was and give it a more realistic view, the comment was not intended or directed to you personally. Especially when it comes to how God communicates and how things are done. I don’t believe we have a full account on the daily lives of all the prophets, Jesus and the apostles. The accounts we do have, are of historical spiritual value. That means we don’t know everything that went on back then, and we are not deprived on anything now. Should people expect to know more just because it’s the Org by opposers?

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

Hi. No problems with numbers :))) 

When you mentioned numbers, some would say how 144000 can be a symbolic number too, not literal. Because Lamb is also symbolic expression, and not literal creature. :))

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom?

I am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

8 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

I continue to disagree with your word usage.

No problem Tom. That will not make me "mentally ill" :)).

8 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Another area is the phrase “mentally ill” versus “mentally diseased”.

Thesaurus. com

diseased

[ dih-zeezd ]SEE DEFINITION OF diseased

• adj.unhealthy

Synonyms for diseased

• afflicted
• ailing
• infected
• infirm
• rotten
• sickly
• indisposed
• infectious
• sick
• tainted
• unsound
• unwell
• unwholesome

 

ill

[ il ]SEE DEFINITION OF ill

• adj.sick
• adj.bad, evil
• nounmisfortune

Synonyms for ill

• afflicted
• ailing
• diseased
• infirm
• poorly
• woozy
• down
• a wreck
• below par
• bummed
• down with
• feeling awful
• feeling rotten
• feeling terrible
• got the bug
• indisposed
• laid low
• off one's feet
• on sick list
• out of sorts
• peaked
• queasy
• rotten
• run-down
• running temperature
• sick as a dog
• under the weather
• unhealthy
• unwell

 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.

Well, than it seems, how elders going above given power and position, because they, elders in congregations suppressing not only criticism but also critical thinking :)) 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

I wouldn’t expect a witness to argue fundamental human rights, but the rights of our heavenly father.

Imagine yourself as Lawyer who defending innocent person. But what if you are so clumsy and unprepared and from time to time looking in a bottle. How this can help your client - God? 

I think how God can defend self much better than human will and would do it for Him. An at last, according to Bible that work (defending Fathers rights) Jesus already finished very successfully.

[JW Insider]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:43 PM, Witness said:

“apostates do not drift away from the truth”

This is an important statement. In actuality many persons are on the "apostate spectrum." Some religions, just like gangs, or the mafia, don't allow one to just drift away. You have to be attacked and in effect, "neutralized."

With religion, it's usually fine to drift away if it highlights that the religion has moral standards that are hard to live up to. Then those who don't come back will sometimes even be seen as a kind of a badge of honor to the religion. (Not individuals, but in general.) But if there is any danger that the person will speak out against the teachings, practices or the basis of organization, then that person must be neutralized in some way so that few persons will listen to them.

Scientologists are famous for going after persons in a threatening way, or through legal means, to keep people from speaking out against their teachings or practices. In the same way, a whistleblower must be fired (by any means necessary) so that they suddenly become no more than a "disgruntled former employee." The Scientologists took over the entire C.A.N. (a huge online Cult Awareness Network forum) after forcing it into bankruptcy, because it was a haven for Scientology apostates.

But back to the benign end of the apostate spectrum.

Apostasy, by original definition, is a "standing away from." When Revelation 16 says to "get out of her, my people," this is a command to become apostates from false ideologies.

Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition, in that all persons who convert to JWs from another religion, for example, are apostates from that other religion. Also, any who leave JWs because they can't live up to the moral standards or levels of activity expected, are "apostates" but JWs consider them generally harmless. Then there are those who leave because they no longer believe the teachings, but who don't say anything, and plan to keep very quiet about it, because they KNOW they might be seen as "malignant" apostate if they spoke up. Frederick Franz was infamous for trying to get persons declared apostate for even "thinking" that 1914 might be wrong, or some other teaching specific to Witnesses. 

But now, because of the phrase, "apostates do not drift away from the truth," those who "drift away" should not be seen as "apostates." Apostates, for purposes of the warnings in the talk, do not include those who drift away.

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Hi, there are only a few JWs who believe so - unlike millions - almost 1 Billion Christian's on earth in various denominations whom ALL think they are going to heaven to be with jesus to rule over whom? 

The absurdity of this idea has often been a talking point I would use with Bible Studies.

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to heaven, not only the 144,000 but even the great crowd of Revelation 7:14. The idea was that they would rule over the 20 billion people or more from "history" would be resurrected to the earth, including the faithful Hebrews of old, and of course the millions of persons then alive who would NOT be part of the great crowd, but who would never die because by 1925, the millennium's resurrection to earth would begin and living "worldly" people would stop getting sick. It was not clear that any Christians would remain with them on earth until the early 1930's.

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

16Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil;

I replied - see my first paragraph. I AGREED with you and then went on to give my opinion on some of the other thoughts I have seen here. 

I am not writing a paper...... like some of the "scholars" here do in their replies.  On occasion I reply to a specific individual but mostly it is just opinion.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

am not sure do they want to "Rule"...... or just to be in Paradise with him. :))

So you acknowledge that the majority of Christians take the emblems without knowing they are to be priests and kings?  All going to heaven to judge whom?  

Most of them have so little knowledge of the bible and its morals, they will not be able to distinguish right from wrong. This is the reason so many churches now voting for LGBTQ. What about the scriptures which show that a great crowd will live through armageddon?  What about Rev 20 which indicates there will be nations on the earth during the 1000 years?

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to

What is the point today? We have understood the scriptures, which refer to the nations on the earth for a 1000 years,  for 84 years.  So this proves that if these scholars had the Spirit of jah they would have understood it too!

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. It is easy to critisize, hard to build up. Many condemned Moses for the way he was doing things. Later God took some of his Spirit from  Moses and gave to others to help him.  So Moses had a lot of Spirit and approval from Jehovah. But,  it was in this time there was rebellions and murmurings against him and the people had expectations for someone better, more to their liking. 

If the GB inspired fear and things were less transparent you would be more in awe of them but because they project themselves unhypocritically (what you see is what you get) - people endow themselves with the right to criticize just about everything about them, going as far as saying that they are not the nation jehovah is using to spearhead the preaching work.   Show me another people who has the infrastructure to fulfill jehovah's will regarding preaching in most countries and I may believe your pitiful criticisms.  These are ordinary men running an operation for their food and keep.  They feel priviledged by jehovah to do this assignment. 

I have worked in corporations where CEOs get bonuses that are in the millions.  They make terrible mistakes and mess up the corporation ......and just before it collapses get even a higher CEO job at another BIGger corporation with more pay. Arrogant and stupid and very capable to make the same mistake over and over.  One of them had a driver and a big limo with so much airs very few people felt worthy to speak to him. The old corporation he worked for gets a new name, new ownership and a new CEO who brings in different measures to curb spending, diversify business etc.  YET people expect the GB to get it right the first time such as when the TV Broadcasts started etc. 

Israel, as a nation was soooooo imperfect and jehovah used them. What I see here on this forum with certain individuals is a tremendous arrogance - their right to critisize.  Well, Satan gave himself the right to critisize the way jehovah chose to use his sovreignty. JAH was so gentle, that arrogant Satan used the gap to downsize Jah himself!.  

The governing body knows that each individual has the right to personal opinion. They tolerate a lot of personal criticism.  People expect them to be an example in every respect - something which even Jesus could not do due to the wickedness of the religious leader's hearts. Jesus shone his light but it was not good enough for the religious leaders.  (We have some people here who feel they are "leaders" because they forget from which organization they learnt the truth of the kingdom in the first place). They were priviledged to see the inside workings  where imperfect GB are and now feel they saw it ALL so they know it ALL.  Familiarity does breed contempt - Jesus's own brothers did not accept him before his death.

It is when our personal opinion is no longer in line with scriptures that we ourselves go beyond that which is written. Who will stop the arrogance - you yourself must do this. If your self-control is not sufficient you can become like Cain who had no self-control and caused the death of his own kin. Spiritual death and stumbling blocks are more serious.  People are only shunned in the congregation when they become rebellious in their sin.

I have a lot of personal opinions - much too opinionated  - and I know it. I have never been spoken to about it and I am aware that as a woman I cannot stand out too much.  I am happy about it because my main focus is to preach.  If I am ever spoken to, I will definitely tone my opinions down.  I am fun.  The young women love to work with me because we always have fun. I am upbuilding, I am a confidante, I  bring my share and I have ample room to move in Jehovahs organization....... I even feel important and blessed.  But not in the way others want to feel important. 

If one meditates about Jehovahs word and read a lot  - you are bound to come up with thoughts that are not found in the Insight Book.... or have not found it yet.  I have a good understanding of the truth and will never attend "clubs" for witnesses.  This is the only forum I share my thoughts.  I do not pretend to be a scholar because to me it is too "churchy-institutionalized". 

 I thank jehovah every day for his blessings and the insight I get from Him because I do not think that scholars have ever got it right.  The scholars in Jesus's day, in all the theological institutions in our day, do not even have a clue what the "sacret secret" is. Their guest is knowledge, not love. Their guest is ego, not love, their guest is to dominate other peoples minds with their own ideas - not love.  Yes, there were those among us who are like "rocks" in our love-feasts- and jehovah is busy with a cleansing work - cleaning out those who cause stumbling.  Did he not say he will start with his own people?

 

The Governing Body are often compared to Moses. *Though why is anyone's guess, as GB are not inspired) 

However, I tend to think on this. Although Moses did many good things in line with God's instructions, he did disobey God.

If my thinking is correct, Moses was told to 'speak to the rock' not to hit it. 

Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the congregation to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting and fell on their faces. The glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord spoke to Moses and said, "Take the staff, and then with Aaron your brother assemble all the community and, in front of them all, speak to the rock and it will yield water. You shall bring forth for them water from the rock, for them and their livestock to drink."

Moses took the staff from before the Lord, as he had commanded him. Then he and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock, and said to them, "Listen to me, you rebels. Shall we bring forth water for you from this rock?"

Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed forth in abundance, and they all drank, men and beasts.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not lead this assembly into the land which I promised to give them."  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think there is a lesson here to be learnt.  It seems that Moses jumped ahead of following God's instructions. It seems as if Moses was putting himself in the place of God. "Shall WE bring forth water.. " Instead of saying God will give you water.  

Does the Governing Body jump ahead of God's instructions ? 

Moses also called God's people 'rebels'.   Does the Governing Body judge God's people as rebels ?

We know for FACT that the Governing Body  'are not inspired of God' and that they 'make mistakes and err'.  So do they in fact deliberately run ahead of God's instructions ?  

This topic is about Apostates. But could not the Governing Body become apostates if they run ahead of God's instructions and deliberately make things up to suit their own needs ?  (the overlapping generations as one example). 

Mentally diseased. Who are we to judge ? Are the Governing Body using that term to their own advantage ?

Remember that Moses took it into his own head to take control "Shall WE bring forth water .. " 

Jesus spoke of water as a 'living water' 'life giving water', I believe. But we know Jesus was highly approved by his heavenly Father.   Is the water coming forth from the Governing Body, 'life giving water' from above ? Or is it man made 'water' and of no real use ?

Therefore if a person genuinely believes that the 'water' coming forth from the Governing Body is not approved of by Almighty God, and if then that person chooses to leave the Organisation, are they really 'mentally diseased apostates ?  I think Almighty God will decide through Jesus Christ as judge..