Did everyone notice another book added to the Watchtower Library "CD" and the WOL?

[TrueTomHarley]

On 7/2/2021 at 1:56 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Maybe I think so because I’m not happy with my life (for a very, very long time).

Are you sure this is not a matter of “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Kicking against the goads makes it hard for you?”

Seriously. I respect you for saying this, for many unhappy people will nonetheless maintain that they are happy, I think yielding to peer pressure that would equate being unhappy with being a loser. When you read relatively high percentages of those who say they are overall happy AND relatively high percentages of those who say they are consumed with anxiety, stress, and depression, to the point of medical treatment, you know something is amiss.

Nor would I ever suggest that all of Jehovah’s people are happy in their present life—all creation is sighing and groaning, is the way Paul puts it—but they get by with what humanists would regard as “cheating,” keeping their gaze on the things above instead of the things below, keeping their eye on the prize when tears and pain will pass away, with earth restored to paradise, looking to the resurrection hope, keeping their eye ‘simple’ in the present system, and so forth.

Of course, the GB encourages that view and builds upon it because the Bible encourages and builds upon it. It is integral to Paul saying he has learned the secret of how to be content regardless of his circumstances, in times of abundance and in times of want.

Seriously, what are you doing here, running down the GB, making that a significant project in your life? What is the point of it? Are you not kicking against the goads? 

The core doctrines of JWs all hold up in their eyes. If I recall, you have questioned what the core doctrines are, as though you would include matters of immediate timing among them. I’ve thought you must be disingenuous in the question, for every Witness knows what they are, and for that reason I don’t go there. But maybe you are sincere in the question, having been away so long, and surrounded by those on a crusade to undercut, significantly contributing to it yourself—maybe all that has served to muddy the waters on what any Witness has no problem with, confusing the ‘core doctrines’ with interpretations of just when the end will come.

Look, everyone knows that looking into the future is not a piece of cake—why keep harping on it? Witnesses are content that the bros taking the lead are doing the best they can, are overall conducting themselves honorably and in fear of God. Most importantly, on matters of advertising and safeguarding the core doctrines, they are doing splendidly. No one else is representing kingdom interests better. Never is it that ALL the core teachings are represented elsewhere, and with the majority of faiths, very few indeed are represented, even none at all. Why do you keep harping on the ones who have succeeded and are succeeding in this? Particularly if you suggest that such a course may lead ones to a place you occupy, a place where you are not very happy and have not been for a long time? What’s the point of it? 

It may be that you are dissatisfied, not the with 20% (as Arauna puts it) but with the 80% Maybe you think the Bible itself is but the word of men, and that to impute divine inspiration into it is nonsense. It is far easier to understand your critical course in this event. It is far more intellectually honest to acknowledge this as your basis for discontent. If so, these are the matters to grapple with, if that be possible, the 80%, rather than taking shots at the forecasting ability of those taking the lead in the JW organization. 

Come now, attend to these things if you can. The point is, should we die in this system of things, that we should die “old and satisfied with days.”

[Arauna]

28 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

everyone knows that looking into the future is not a piece of cake—why keep harping on it

The Watchtower study for this weekend is so encouraging. It shows that Jehovah forgives all who worship him.  We must not condemn ourselves for what we are because the ransom covers it. Many Witnesses have sinned and often feel unworthy because of it .....but it encourages all to only focus on today and the future.  Forget the past.  It it what you do from now on which will define your future. 

The slave have taught us all the core teachings we need to get into the new system. They are imperfect humans and made mistakes, but they too, they need to only focus on the present and the future.  It is their relationship with Jehovah at this moment and the future which defines them - not the past. 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Nor would I ever suggest that all of Jehovah’s people are happy in their present life—all creation is sighing and groaning, is the way Paul puts it—but they get by with what humanists would regard as “cheating,” keeping their gaze on the things above instead of the things below, keeping their eye on the prize when tears and pain will pass away, with earth restored to paradise, looking to the resurrection hope, keeping their eye ‘simple’ in the present system, and so forth.

 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course, the GB encourages that view and builds upon it because the Bible encourages and builds upon it.

 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The core doctrines of JWs all hold up in their eyes.

What exactly are the “fundamental doctrines” for JW members?
Are they clearly visible and enumerated, in the Bible as a whole text? Or are these specific teachings of Jesus Christ? Or are these important doctrines that are an integral part of the JW religion?
If something is called fundamental, then there may be a few things, maybe five, maybe ten, that are the basis for everything else. As far as I can remember, Jesus said quite clearly what is most important in the religious life of a believer, that is, in the "religion" he promoted. He said, Love God and love people the same way.

The very thesis you are trying to advocate, and that is, that core doctrines are correct, automatically means that you have doctrines that are not fundamental. And what’s worse, that these unimportant doctrines aren’t accurate, they’re wrong, maybe even false. So where will that take you? Some of you are concerned with ratios, so they say most doctrines are correct and a minority are not. Or vice versa.

How many fundamental doctrines are there in the teachings of Jesus? How many less important doctrines are there in the teachings of Jesus? How many subsequently interpreted teachings or “beliefs clarified” are there in Jesus ’teaching? Why has WTJWorg GB put itself in a situation of multiplying teachings that it subsequently revises, instead of sticking solely to “core doctrines” whose source is Jesus and not some people in the Organization? Why don't JW members recognize Jesus' legacy, but are willing to repeatedly follow people who have proven to be generators, promoters, and stewards of wrong/false teachings?

And if we are already talking about the ratios of accuracy and inaccuracy, truth and falsehood in the religious and administrative doctrine of the Organization, then you really need to worry about yourself and your part in promoting inaccurate and incorrect, false interpretations and teachings as you preach your beliefs to other people. Reminder for illustration: Does the Organization have a division into priests and lay people? If you say no then you are not telling the truth. And another important question: Is this doctrine about priests and lay people a “core doctrine” or not?

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The point is, should we die in this system of things, that we should die “old and satisfied with days.”

Given the new “overlapping generation” interpretation you will not die in this “system of things” but in some other/future system, and whether you will die old and content depends only on you as individuals.

But I do hope how "overlapping generation" is not part of your "core doctrine".   

[TrueTomHarley]

Very well, go back to kicking against the goads and embrace unhappiness. Did I not give you my all with kindness and respect? Sheesh.

46 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What exactly are the “fundamental doctrines” for JW members?

It is impossible for you to be unclear on this point—it has been clarified by several people on several occasions, and it doesn’t even have be clarified. It is simply a matter of common sense. I go back to by original thesis that you are just being disingenuous 

It reminds me of a scene from Tom Irregardless and Me, in which my old pioneer partner gone bad, Vic Vomodog, summons me to his deathbed:

“My old friend Vic Vomodog! We used to pull together shoulder to shoulder in the work! How I regretted having cut him off when he’d changed sides. How judgmental I’d been! If only I could have another chance! His pained eyes met mine from his hospital bed. With trembling hand, he beckoned me close. I strained to catch his last words:

“‘There’s two, Tommy. That Watchtower you study? It’s not the same as what the public reads. You’re being indoctrinated, buddy. When are you going to wake up? They’re different.’

“Oh, for crying out loud! I rolled my eyes and he died. Of course they’re different! When Stephen Hawking has his science chums over, do you think they crack open their Physics 101 college textbooks?”

I swear there are some lunatics like this. Their last dying breath they will use to disparage Jehovah’s organization.

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What exactly are the “fundamental doctrines” for JW members?

I will answer for Tom:

(Notice, no overlapping generation there 😀)

God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.—Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17.

Bible. We recognize the Bible as God’s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament.” Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses built “their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.” *
While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally.—Revelation 1:1.

Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28.

The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God’s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14.
Jesus is the King of God’s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914.—Revelation 11:15.

Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person’s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned—it comes through “the undeserved kindness of God.”—Galatians 2:16, 21.

Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people—144,000—will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom.—Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3.

Earth. God created the earth to be mankind’s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Psalm 37:11, 34.

Evil and suffering. These began when one of God’s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called “Satan” and “Devil,” persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever.

Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment.
God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God’s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection.—Revelation 20:14, 15.

Family. We adhere to God’s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed.—Ephesians 5:22–6:1.

Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following:

Praying to God.—Philippians 4:6.

Reading and studying the Bible.—Psalm 1:1-3.

Meditating on what we learn from the Bible.—Psalm 77:12.

Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage fellow Witnesses and others.—Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25.

Preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.”—Matthew 24:14.

Helping those in need.—James 2:14-17.

Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work.—Psalm 127:1.

Sharing in disaster relief.—Acts 11:27-30.

Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations.
The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.—Matthew 24:45.

Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience.—Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.

Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God’s laws.—Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29.

Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” He also said that Christians “are no part of the world.” (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to “work what is good toward all,” yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters.—Romans 14:12.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

[Pudgy]

Amen.

By the way .... If you want instruction to be valuable, keep it short, like ....

"What Lassie? ... Timmy's in the well, and you want me to bring a rope?"

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Pudgy said:

If you want instruction to be valuable, keep it short, like ....

 

Of course. You have to earn your readership. 

It’s amazing on how people will lay something long and tedious and dogmatic and repetitive and in-your-face on you and simply assume you are obligated to read it, as though you have nothing whatsoever else to do with your time. 

Long stuff is fine. I have no problem with that. But long stuff with the assumption that people will feel obligated to read it points to an author so self-important that you wonder at her mindset.

Not to mention the sanctimoniousness of those who stuff tractor-trailer loads of scripture into their diatribes, with little or no effort to establish applicability. After all, as every Bible reader knows, you-know-who is able to quote scripture, too.

What he is not able to do is teach and build up others with it. Accordingly, I note that Witness has still. not responded to Aruana’s request to specify just what does she believe, if anything, other than that her “rivals” have outmaneuvered her and she is steamed about it. I won’t even swear that she has never gone there. It is just that with nearly all of her writing devoted to her pet peeve, who has the time to search to see if there are any diamonds among the turds?

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did I not give you my all with kindness and respect?

Thanks  

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

I will answer for Tom:

Thanks again. The enumeration presented shows on which elements the doctrinal settings of WTJWorg are based. It also contains a list of things you act on because of accepted doctrines, but also because of some direct actions in the past that you seek to emulate.
Certainly, we must acknowledge that some of the doctrines on the list are the product of today's JW's interpretation or understanding of the meaning of biblical passages, and this is subject to further discussion, which has already been discussed or will be discussed in the future.

If you allow me, I would say that only some of the things you mentioned are recognizable as "religious doctrine". And some other things are part of the administrative and organizational nature, which refer to some patterns of behavior and thought of people thousands of years ago. That patterns must not be wrong because they are old, but are just reflection of life conditions of people in past time. 

When you or other people mentioning Jesus words from Matt 22:39 - The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’, -  I would never thought about them as "religious doctrine". Those words are many miles away from any sort of "religious doctrine". They are unimaginably more sublime and important than most "doctrines". Well, in fact of all the "doctrines", I would venture to say. .....This is evident from question: Was the law created/made for man or was man created/made for the law? In Mark 2:27 Jesus said, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 

Question; Was Sabbath "core doctrine"? or some minor rule? Sabbath was/is part of 10 Commandments. In that/such context perhaps many believers would say it is "core doctrine". Jesus showed another perspective.

According to, great caution is needed when it comes to "core doctrines". They must be in the service of man, not the other way around. Understanding the doctrines and choosing the doctrines by which we should look at ourselves and others, our own lives and the lives of other people, and derive other instructions and guidelines can easily turn into a multiplication of life-suffocating rules.

We should also see what the differences and similarities are when we use another term - “principles”. Are "principles" in the service of "doctrines"? Are they equal or are “principles” more important?  

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

those who stuff tractor-trailer loads of scripture into their diatribes, with

Yes, so true.  Satan can also quote scripture (or the words of Jehovah), but he uses the reasoning to get people to be deceived..... he tried it with Eve and  with Jesus.  To quote scripture is therefore not a given that it is truth. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

To quote scripture is therefore not a given that it is truth. 

Yes, I agree. WTJWorg Administration has been proving that for 142 years ... with black letters on white paper. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes, so true.  Satan can also quote scripture (or the words of Jehovah), but he uses the reasoning to get people to be deceived..... he tried it with Eve and  with Jesus.  To quote scripture is therefore not a given that it is truth. 

Perhaps you can share the scriptures used by your leaders that convinced the generation of 1914 that they would not “pass away” before Armageddon would come?  What scriptures are being used to teach the new “overlapping generation” doctrine?

Or, those scriptures that support the replacement of the holy priesthood in the anointed, with “Gentile” elders.  (Rev 11:1,2)

Can you tell me where in the scriptures, God speaks of an earthly organization built in Satan’s world to appear as the path of salvation, above and beyond the salvation in Jesus Christ?  (John 14:6; Acts 4:12)

I only see God’s Temple/dwelling of Holy Spirit – “the temple of the God of Jacob” (“Israel”) and built with “living stones”, as the “mountain” that people will stream to, in the last days.  (Isa 2:1-3; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22)

It is from this “mountain” where the “law of the Lord” will come forth – from “New Jerusalem”.   (Rev 21:1-3)  That law will not deviate from truth by teaching lies.

Where, in the scriptures does it say that the Wt. organization will be unscathed through Armageddon and stand prominently with all of its buildings in the Kingdom of God?  This is what A. Morris tells us. 

Can you provide scriptures which tell us, that even though “death will be destroyed” by Jesus Christ when Armageddon has reached its end, (1 Cor 15:26) , it will return a thousand years later, in the Kingdom of God – the Kingdom which God promises that “death will be no more”?  (Rev 21:4)

Yes, Satan can deceive, even the "elect" - God's anointed ones.  Matt 24:24,25