Matthew 24. Is the INVISIBLE PAROUSIA doctrine based on less likely, special definitions of SIGN, PAROUSIA, CONCLUSION, LIGHTNING, GENERATION, and "GENTILE TIMES"?

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

OK ... what is "between the lines"?

-----> Loyalist to the erred cause    <------

[SuziQ1513]

46 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

OK ... what is "between the lines"?

----->                                            <---

Oh my gosh, James!  Where do you find this stuff!!!    I'm laughing but somewhat worried at the same time.   Jw witness program for Mafia informants!   I can't stop laughing!!!!

[JW Insider]

On 8/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, TiagoBelager said:

You preach on this forum that Revelation does not show us that it would be sometime future to the apostle John's writing of Revelation that Jesus would became enthroned over mankind. Since that event, he has power by holy spirit for building up and protecting true Christians for their continued existence in these last days as an international brotherhood, despite Satan's increased activities for bringing about great woe for the earth, and bringing about persecutions designed to crush the international brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses.

There are many reasons why I think John's reference to Christ's enthronement is a revelation about one of the most important events in Christian history, and that it had just happened in the first century. But I have no problem with the idea that there can also be an even greater future application. Recently, on this forum, some suggested that, just like Jehovah can "become king" at various times in history based on the manifestation of his power, that Jesus, too, could have become king in 33, and to some would become king at other times in history, and to some will become king at the time for which we pray "Let your kingdom come!"

So note that I fully AGREE that Jesus has power by holy spirit for building up and true Christians as an international brotherhood in spite of persecution by Satan. This is not being challenged here in any way. Like you, I also think this has happened "since that event."

The difference, I guess, is that I am not claiming that Jesus had to be made king AGAIN in order to do this during the last 100 years or so. Just because Jesus didn't begin each and every activity of his kingship immediately, doesn't mean he was not already king. I think we have to respect the Bible's presentation of the facts, too. Jesus Christ is introduced in Revelation as the "Ruler of the kings of the earth." A ruler is a king.

(Revelation 1:4, 5) . . .May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

Perhaps you do not believe this particular scripture was true of Jesus at the time it was written (around 100 CE). Notice, however, that this is in the introduction before the visions begin. (And the same phrase King of Kings is used of Jesus in 1 Timothy 6:15.) If Jesus already had "ALL authority" and was already "above every power" in 33 CE, then who are we to argue that he would get additional power and authority at a future time?

In fact, we referenced this scripture earlier, but note carefully:

(Revelation 3:21) 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Look at the cross-reference at the word "sat down" in the NWT. It was just after he offered his life as a propitiatory sacrifice:

(Hebrews 10:12) 12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God,

So Jesus has been sitting down with his Father on his throne since 33 CE. No wonder Paul could say that "ruling as king" is the equivalent expression to "sitting down at God's right hand."

(1 Corinthians 15:25) 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

We can't argue that Jesus doesn't start ruling because he must quietly "wait" until all enemies are put under his feet before he begins ruling as king, because he is ruling in the "midst" of his enemies. Otherwise you'd have to claim that Jesus still hasn't begun ruling as king because the last enemy death has not been put under his feet yet.

Of course, for all we know, Jesus actually may have exercised his power in 1914, 1918, 1919, 1929, 1958, 1999, 2015, and may again display even further powerful activities in 2018. (I picked all those dates at random.) So I take nothing away from Jesus' kingly activities toward the nations or toward the congregation since 1914. But I haven't seen a Biblical reason to say that he needed to re-start his kingdom on that date just because some of the specific activities of that kingdom may have only started in these last 100+ years.

On 8/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, TiagoBelager said:

One of his first acts following 1914 when he was made the specially empowered King over mankind was the casting of the Devil and his angels out of Heaven. You cannot preach such things in good conscience, can you?

Of course I can teach in good conscience that when Jesus was made the specially empowered King over mankind that one of his first acts was the casting out of the Devil and demons. It's just that I can't in good conscience be so presumptuous as to say that I know exactly when this occurred. I assume that Jesus referred to this event in anticipation when he said:

(Luke 10:18) . . .At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.

But through Jesus' death, he apparently effected another fall:

(Hebrews 2:14) . . .so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,

(John 12:31-33) 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.

(John 14:28-30) . . .I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am. 29 So now I have told you before it occurs, so that you may believe when it does occur. 30 I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.

(John 16:10, 11) . . .I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

(1 John 3:8) . . .For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

Yet, there are other indications that the time could be yet future:

(Matthew 8:28-31) 29 And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” 30 A long way off from them, a herd of many swine was feeding. 31 So the demons began to plead with him. . .

(2 Thessalonians 2:7-9) . . .. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan. . .

And, of course, there is another time when Satan falls yet again for the final time, this time from prison to earth to the abyss.

(Revelation 20:7-10) 7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

We have often learned that the term "heaven" can have a symbolic meaning even for those on earth. Especially in the case of an entity who is inordinately exalted.

(2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

(Isaiah 14:12, 13) 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens. Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne, And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting, In the remotest parts of the north.

(Daniel 4:22) 22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the ends of the earth.

So, I doubt that any of us can say definitively what specific event is referred to in Revelation 12 when Satan is cast down from heaven. Did Satan literally have the authority to walk among the sons of God and take his station before Jehovah, as he is depicted doing in the book of Job?

(Job 1:6, 7) 6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them. 7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.”

Is this all that Satan is supposed to have lost the ability to do in 1914? Was Satan able to take his station before Jehovah in 1913? Are we saying that Satan was the ruler of the world in 33 CE and was also still the ruler of the world in 1914, and still in 2017, with the exact same power and authority in 1915 that he had in 1913?

The irony here is that we are really saying that the "good news of the kingdom" in 1914 was that the world would now be filled with much more wrath and trouble than ever for over 100 years.

 (Revelation 12:10) . . .“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

Is this the real message about what it would mean that NOW have come to pass the salvation and power of and God's Kingdom? I'm not saying that the logic can't be made to work; it might well be true. But I wonder if it is potentially demeaning to the power of Jehovah and Jesus to assign these phrases this event as we have, for which the heavens declare that it means "God's Kingdom HAS NOW COME TO PASS!" "Now has come to pass SALVATION! Now we have finally seen the AUTHORITY of God's King, Jesus Christ!  And yet our only evidence of this claim is that 1914 saw the beginning of WWI and in the next few years we saw the pestilence of the Spanish Influenza follow that war. Clearly we don't have the proper secular evidence that makes 1914 a Biblical date, so the entire remaining evidence is that there were very important historical changes that occurred in that particular year.

I can make some sense of this explanation the same as you can. I'm just saying that there seem to be several more likely time periods that already have the support of scripture. I don't think we need to take Revelation 12 apart linguistically, although there are a few hints in the language that could put this as a vision of something that started in the past. I'll refrain unless this discussion dives further into that subject.

BIBLICAL REASONS NOT TO TIE REVELATION CHAPTER TWELVE TO THE YEAR 1914

[This has been moved below to a separate post, as this current post was rather lengthy.]

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

A good example of this “device” would be to suggest the NWT errors with its translation such as the examples given by the poster (ex-bethelite) with the reference of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (2 Thess. 2:8 NIV) with the word “manifestation”. All of a sudden, this word changes the context that other BIBLE versions seem to indicate.

Some bible uses the words as illustrated by the poster.

(2 Thess. 2:8, KJV) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2 Thess 2:8, NIV) the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Yet there are other versions of the bible that use yet other words to describe the text, that was NOT given as an example.

^BBE 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then will come the revelation of that evil one, whom the Lord Jesus will put to death with the breath of his mouth, and give to destruction by the revelation of his coming;

^DBY 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming;

^ESV 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

^NAB 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord [Jesus] will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, (2 Thess. 2:8 NAB)

^CJB 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.

Allen, Thank you for responding with good research here. I'm copying what I said about it over to here below (for reference) since it's already a page behind us and it's a very long page to scroll through. (Wonder how that happened?) I put it in a "quote" format so that, hopefully, it doesn't take up too much space unless someone wants to scroll through it.

What you should see below is that I did, indeed, as you say, make too much of the idea that this refers to a bright and shining appearance. Still, there were other translations that also showed this same thing, although I only picked two of them. I don't know if you intended to include the CJB in your listing, because it is one of those that goes to the same point I made using the expression "the glory of his coming." If you did include it on purpose, then I thank you for your honesty.

My point is that when a person makes an "epiphany" it can mean just an appearance. But in most prior Greek usage, when a "god" makes an "epiphany" it is usually not only an "appearance" but a "glorious" one. So I highlighted that portion of Thayer's, for example. I believe that Jesus is a "god."

But that wasn't the only point. If you notice I also used the NLT for a meaning I prefer, even though it only uses the simple term "appearance." This is because the NWT uses the term "manifestation." Yet, something can be manifest to one person but not manifest to another, so it doesn't fully convey the basic idea of appearance and visibility. That's also why I put "PAROUSIA" back in the quotation of 2 Thess 2:8 from the NWT/KIT. It's because the primary point is that the parousia is visible. It's not just a "manifestation of his parousia" but an "appearance of his parousia." It's a little harder to miss the point about visibility with the word appearance. And, it's even harder to miss the point when the term "glorious appearance of his parousia" is used. (Or "brightness of his parousia.") 

But again, I really thank you for a scriptural response. I'd love to see a scriptural response to other points made here, too.

Quote

 

This is consistent with the idea that the "parousia" of a powerful godlike person could be considered to be a "theophany," or an "appearance" like some kind of bright and shining manifestation. To make this clearer we will use the original word PAROUSIA or SYNTELEIA in the following verses, to make it easier to understand the original meaning.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, NWT, KIT) . . .the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his [PAROUSIA].

But even this does not fully match the likely meaning of the word that the NWT uses here. Note the KJV and NIV, for example:

(2 Thess. 2:8, KJV) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(2 Thess 2:8, NIV) the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

That's because the word in Greek is ἐπιφάνεια (epipháneia) which according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

epipháneia -- an appearing, appearance; often used by the Greeks of a glorious manifestation of the gods, and especially of their advent to help; in 2 Maccabees of signal deeds and events betokening the presence and power of God as helper."

It's the same word used in 2 Timothy and Titus:

(1 Timothy 6:14) ¹⁴ to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation [EPIPHANEIA]  of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Note that the NWT in 2 Tim 4:1 uses the word "AND" here, although most translations follow a Greek text which has the word "AT" in this place, so that the verse reads more smoothly as:

(2 Tim 4:1, NLT) I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom:

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 8/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, TiagoBelager said:

One of his first acts following 1914 when he was made the specially empowered King over mankind was the casting of the Devil and his angels out of Heaven.

BIBLICAL REASONS NOT TO TIE REVELATION CHAPTER TWELVE TO THE YEAR 1914

There are a few more obvious Biblical reasons that many have noticed already.

One is the fact that the woman who is ostensibly about to give birth to the kingdom is depicted as very vulnerable, needing to be hidden away, hiding from a much more powerful dragon.

*** re chap. 27 p. 177 par. 3 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
The woman John here sees is . . . . Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures . . . . Jehovah’s magnificent heavenly organization!

If this woman is God's ENTIRE heavenly organization, then was there ever a time when God's ENTIRE heavenly organization was so vulnerable that it had to be hidden away so that Satan could not devour it? Remember that this is after Jesus had been make King of kings and Lord of lords back in 33 CE according to the Bible, and after all authority had been given him, and after he had been made to sit at the right hand of Majesty, and after he had been raised up in power back to the position he had before the creation of the systems of things. (Heb 1:3) This Jesus, was now the reflection of God's glory, and as of 33 CE, according to the verse in Hebrews, he "sustains all things by the word of his power."

So are we saying that this Jesus who is part of God's entire heavenly organization in 1914 was so vulnerable that he had to be hidden along with the rest of Jehovah's universal organization of spirit creatures? Did Satan drag a third of the angels down and cast them down to the earth in 1914?

*** re chap. 27 p. 179 par. 9 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
Mention of “a third” would emphasize that a considerable number of angels have been misled by Satan.

Of course, we place this event back at the time of the Flood. (So much for the claim that the events depicted as happening in this chapter of Revelation cannot possibly have occurred in the past):

*** re chap. 27 p. 179 par. 9 God’s Kingdom Is Born! ***
Satan also cast them down to the earth. This no doubt refers to Noah’s day before the Flood, when Satan induced the disobedient sons of God to go down to earth and cohabit with the daughters of men. As a punishment, these “angels that sinned” have been thrown by God into the prisonlike condition called Tartarus.

So, Satan is here depicted as casting down a third of the angels and standing before the woman ready to devour her. If we are right that this is Jehovah's entire heavenly organization, then this one dragon, Satan, is now ready to devour Jesus, and at least two-thirds of the remaining angels. And now he has to do it alone because he just cast down that third of his "misled" angels to the earth. If he had only remembered to keep his new minions up there in heaven with him! At any rate, he is outnumbered at least ...

(Revelation 5:11) 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads [footnote: 10,000 times 10,000] and thousands of thousands.

So 10,000 x 10,000 is 100 Million!!  If myriads, plural, is at least 20,000, then Satan is outnumbered 20,000x20,000, or at least 400,000,000 to one. But of course, these angels on Satan's side are here battling with him. Tartarus must have very porous borders!

That was purposely ridiculous to show that our current explanation doesn't make any sense.

And yet, it makes perfect sense if we consider the one time when the woman, Jehovah's bride, was Israel. The most vulnerable time for the outworking of Jehovah's purpose through his Son was when his Son was made flesh, and born of a woman, the offspring of David, BEFORE he was with POWER declared God's Son by means of resurrection from the dead.

(Romans 1: 1-4) . . . God’s good news, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh, 4 but who with power was declared God’s Son according to the spirit of holiness by means of resurrection from the dead—yes, Jesus Christ our Lord.

We know that Satan was behind the extra demonic activity on earth at the time of Jesus' ministry. We also know that Israel itself is depicted as God's woman, and even the symbol of the sun, moon and 12 stars were already a part of that symbolism:

(Genesis 37:9, 10) . . .This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me.” 10 Then he related it to his father as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him and said to him: “What is the meaning of this dream of yours? Am I as well as your mother and your brothers really going to come and bow down to the earth to you?. . .

Satan did try to devour Jesus at the most vulnerable time: BEFORE he was given even more power and authority than what he had before he was born as a human on earth.

(Matthew 2:13) 13 After they had departed, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying: “Get up, take the young child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I give you word, for Herod is about to search for the young child to kill him.. . .

(Matthew 4:1) . . .Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. . . . Then the Devil left him, and look! angels came and began to minister to him.

Also, if this explanation is possible, it would be Israel that was fed for three and one-half years (1,260 days) which turns out to be exactly the amount of time that we believe Jesus went to feed the lost house of Israel in the time of his ministry. Not that this is the explanation either, but what would be the reason that God's universal organization of angels needed to be fed in the wilderness? And why would they need to flee after Jesus had already been snatched away to God's throne? Was the kingdom in heaven still so weak in 1914?

(Revelation 12:5-6) 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days.

Another point I have heard (although I don't think it's very valid or relevant) is that the woman is in birth pangs because she is about to give birth to the Kingdom in 1914. Yet the scriptural references about the birth pangs we use elsewhere (Matthew 24, 1 Thess 5) are always used in order to speak of the time after the birth of the kingdom in 1914, and a time closer to the final end judgment event. It's as if the child is born and the birth pains come after that event and not before.

[Arauna]

Until Satan was put out of heaven there were doubtful ideas spread all the time in heaven and angels (even if perfect) were vulnerable to this as they could use their free choice to turn against Jehovah and disobey him. They also had to prove their loyalty to Jehovah.  Book of revelation indicates that one third of the myriads of angels followed in Satans footsteps.... (it hurt the heavenly family) and angels on their way to earthly missions were intercepted by Satans rulers.... One angel told Daniel that the archangel came to help him!  The heavens was also subject to Satans influence!   So this clears up the flawed thinking above about the heavenly woman!  The book of Jude indicates that Jesus had to rebuke an angel who wanted to take Moses's body to (no doubt) create more false worship and destroy the plans of Jehovah to bring forth the Messiah from the nation of Jews!

Since Satan was a heavenly creature the issue of obedience and loyalty to Jehovah became an UNIVERSAL issue.  This is why the firstborn son came to earth because he was directly created by God - a heavenly creature who became less than the other angels and therefore settled the obedience of heavenly creatures (until death) in addition to the earthly issue to be settled.

The heavens rejoiced greatly when satan was thrown out! For sure.  This 'woman' gave birth to a new nation when a new spiritual land was created!  The 144,000 who were in death received the First resurrection and a new nation (of priests and kings) was born!  These would be part of this new Kingdom!       The logic of the writings I have seen thus far in these 12 pages defies logic and since Jehovah is absolute logic I expect things to fit in perfectly and make absolute sense. As I said before - people become so captured by the minute detail that they lose the larger picture and literally throw out the new born baby (the sacred secret of the kingdom) with the bath water!

I expect to see an unbelievable intensifying of the power of satan on the earth - to the extent that there is no more good people to hold his total influence back!  So far - wickedness has been held back by the decency of societies.... this is a figment of the past.

Whether we will see a third world war - we do not know - but it will just be more of the same on a much larger scale.  However, civil society is becoming so hard to live in with wickedness, love of violence and spiritism everywhere!  The longer the world situation is building the bigger the effect when it cracks open!

Everything is escalating because many issues are coming to a conclusion - such as the destruction of the earth - soon we will reach a point of no return with so many issues regarding the earth on the table.  I can go on and on about the issues we are facing with the earth (climate change is the smallest one!)....

So - this is the time to unitedly preach, preach, preach!

[bruceq]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:00 AM, TiagoBelager said:

So, JWI,

Why don't you take your theories, very heavily tinged with preterism as they are, and communicate them to the Governing Body? Well, if we are to believe you, all you need to add in your submissions of your theories is that some of them are somewhat like Ray Franz' theories, and like other responsible, not-disfellowshipped Bethelite brothers' theories, but who were not disfellowshipped because they did not promulgate them. Oh, but here your situation is not quite like those other brothers' situation, because you do promulgate what you feel are theories that have greater merit than what are currently identified as the doctrines that are preached by Jehovah's Witnesses, preached with Jehovah's blessings! 

Tiago

    JWI teachings about 1914 and eschatology are identical  to the teachings of the churches of Christendom. Instead of "getting out of her my people" he and his followers have "gone back to her my people". Rev 18. Some of them say they do not want to have the authority of the Governing Body telling them interpretations of the Bible and therefore have to "share with them in their sins [or mistakes}. But I would rather share in the mistakes of Jehovah's people [mistakes Jehovah allows for a reason] than "share in the sins of Babylon the Great. That is my choice.

He even stated haughtily [with a name like "insider" do you expect him to be humble?} on Saturday the 19th that he has "special interpretation". That his interpretation is correct compared to the Governing Body!!! Obviously there is no reasoning with someone who has strayed that far away from Jehovah's Organization and believes as apostate Christendom does about 1914 and many other doctrines as indicated in his voluminous writings. {which also indicates how he feels superior to others].

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

CHOICE, FREE WILL!!!!!!

James 5:12-18English Standard Version (ESV)

¹² But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.

 

Romans 8 New International Version (NIV)

Life Through the Spirit

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, ² because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you^[a] free from the law of sin and death. ³ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,^[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.^[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

⁵ Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶ The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ⁸ Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

¹² Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

¹⁴ For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. ¹⁵ The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.^[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,^[g] Father.” ¹⁶ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. ¹⁷ Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Present Suffering and Future Glory

¹⁸ I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. ¹⁹ For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. ²⁰ For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope ²¹ that^[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

²² We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. ²³ Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. ²⁴ For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? ²⁵ But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

²⁶ In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. ²⁷ And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

²⁸ And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who^[i] have been called according to his purpose. ²⁹ For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ³⁰ And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

More Than Conquerors

³¹ What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? ³² He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? ³³ Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. ³⁴ Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. ³⁵ Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? ³⁶ As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”^[j]

³⁷ No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. ³⁸ For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,^[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, ³⁹ neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 3:15-17New International Version (NIV)

¹⁵ I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! ¹⁶ So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. ¹⁷ You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

[TrueTomHarley]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

Just as a side issue, I noticed that in the new 2013 NWT there are several instances where we changed the wording to be more in line  with other (Christendom's) translations.

Several literal renderings went out the window, and I miss them. I see why they had to go - for the sake of clarification, especially to cultures not attuned to Hebrew thinking, but I miss them nonetheless.

No longer do the grousers grouse that God's way is 'not adjusted right' and Jehovah turns the tables on them by asking 'is not your way not adjusted right?' Now they simply call each other 'wrong.' (Ezekiel 33)

No longer do faces sharpen one another. That's too bad. There are faces here that you could shave with.

Yikes! Alexa declines to even rate my website - tomsheepandgoats who? it says. I have to register. To be sure, I would have been blown away had I appeared in the top 10,000,000. But I did't think they would deign to acknowledge it's existence. Surely they are in cahoots with @The Librarian

 

[JW Insider]

On 8/23/2017 at 11:10 PM, Nana Fofana said:

"Presence" - "parousia"  - is over a period of years:

(Matthew 24:37-39) For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. ³⁸ For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; ³⁹ and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

Thanks for using scripture to make your point.

Yes, it is possible to see something in this verse that could imply that the parousia might be over a period of several years. But there are two periods of time mentioned here.

1. First, is the period of years in which the people of Noah's day were eating and drinking and going on with their lives, without any concern about an impending judgment event.
2. Second, is the "day that Noah entered into the ark."

So the question is whether it can be applied to the period of years before that day, or it can be applied to that day, or it can be applied to both. It's a legitimate question which is why we should refer to other references to Christ's parousia to see if this view of several years creates any contradictions with those other places. Previously, in this thread, that was already done. And the evidence tells us that "parousia" refers to a royal visitation or judgment event that comes at a time when it is too late to prepare. So it would be very applicable to say that it comes as a surprise during a time or a generation that is not prepared for it. If it is a judgment event, we would also see how it applied during the days of Lot and Sodom or the days of the Christians waiting for the judgment event upon Jerusalem in 70 CE. But the verses that apply most directly to the question would be those that apply to the final judgment event upon the world.

There are a lot of Scriptures to that effect, I think one of them that wasn't dealt with 100% is one that you brought up earlier:

• (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Paul addressed the concern that some Christians had already fallen asleep in death and there was a concern that these ones might have to wait for some length of time or would miss out on the glory of that parousia when Jesus descends from heaven with a commanding call and God's trumpet. So Paul says that it should be "comforting" to those who are concerned that they will all be caught up together at the very same time. (as indicated in the Greek) In other words they would all share together at the time of the Parousia, whether some died before or some survived right up to Parousia. This does not speak about another set of people who live and die after the Parousia is in progress. If the Parousia really happened that way, then the comforting message would not mean as much because whoever was born and died after the Parousia would have missed that glorious event when Jesus descends and calls all the dead in Christ to be raised, so that the survivors can all witness this at the same time.

If you notice this is exactly what Paul is saying when he says that we will ALL be changed at the same time, in the blink of an eye, both the dead and those who survive to the time when that happens.

• (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) . . .We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Notice again that all are changed at the same time, in a moment, in the blink of any eye. Paul goes on to say that this is the time when Death is swallowed up forever. That would contradict the idea that those in union with Christ would be born after this Parousia begins and then die during that Parousia. In Greek, the expression is more likely "at the last trumpet" not "during the last trumpet". As in 1 Thess 4, it "a commanding call...with God's trumpet." Not a series of calls for each person who dies over a period of 100+ years. 

[JW Insider]

On 8/23/2017 at 11:10 PM, Nana Fofana said:

VISIBLE?

(John 14:19) A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live.

(1 Timothy 6:16) the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.

Thanks again for using scripture. By the way, although many people have implied it, I don't see the scriptures saying that Jesus will be visible as a human, or even as a spirit. What Jesus says is that the Parousia will be like lighting that shines from one horizon all the way over to the other horizon. (Discussed under the "Lightning" section of this topic.) If the Lord descends in glory and the angels with him, this still does not necessarily mean that every eye will see Jesus himself in a literal sense. We know that the resurrected Jesus materialized a human body before since he as a spirit, cannot be seen, and this can be true of the angels too. But this is not an argument that he will necessarily do that.

• (2 Thessalonians 2:8) . . .whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

This can be translated "brightness" of his presence, but it is not necessary. The word refers to visibility, but not necessarily of Jesus himself in any kind of bodily form. It's the "Parousia" that gets manifested .

• (Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. . . 41 The Son of man will send his angels, . . .  43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

 

[JW Insider]

On 8/23/2017 at 11:10 PM, Nana Fofana said:

Disappeared from view.  departure observed only by disciples. Return -the same.

(Acts 1:9-11) And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. ¹⁰ And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, ¹¹ and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.”

(Acts 1:9) And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision.

>>>>>Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will “beat themselves in grief.”<<<<<

"Reasoning" WTBTS

If Jesus was visible and they could see that he was raised into heaven on a visible cloud until he was gone and they could not see him any more, then this is not proof that when he returns, his Parousia will not also be visible again. If I am watching an airplane leave the airport and watch it until a cloud finally takes it from my view, and I am told that the airplane will return in the same manner, I would merely expect it to be visible again when it comes back out of the clouds on the way back down. Besides, even the Reasoning book also admits that the manifestation of his power will have to be visible when the judgment event of the Parousia takes effect, at least in terms of the effects of destruction. We even have the new understanding that a time may come when all the remaining anointed persons might be "raptured" into heaven at the same time. We avoid the use of the term "rapture" because it carries some unnecessary religious baggage with it, but we now believe that the effect will be the same as it is understood in Christendom.

*** w15 7/15 pp. 18-19 pars. 14-15 “Your Deliverance Is Getting Near”! ***

• 14 What will happen after Gog of Magog starts the attack on God’s people? Both Matthew and Mark record the same event: “[The Son of man] will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.” (Mark 13:27; Matt. 24:31) T. . .  So, what is this gathering work that Jesus mentions? It is the time when the remaining ones of the 144,000 will receive their heavenly reward. (1 Thess. 4:15-17; Rev. 14:1) This event will take place at some point after the beginning of the attack by Gog of Magog. (Ezek. 38:11) Then these words of Jesus will be fulfilled: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.”—Matt. 13:43.
• 15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed ones? . . . So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.)