Matthew 24. Is the INVISIBLE PAROUSIA doctrine based on less likely, special definitions of SIGN, PAROUSIA, CONCLUSION, LIGHTNING, GENERATION, and "GENTILE TIMES"?

[JW Insider]

We still haven't discussed the subject of the "SIGN" but so many other sub-topics have come up that I still wanted to discuss them while they are only a few pages back.

REASONABLENESS versus PRESUMPTUOUSNESS; or, TRUTH versus SPECULATION

It has even been suggested that perhaps the teaching about 1914 really is wrong, or perhaps it's not, but it's not really our responsibility to "test" what we believe and "make sure of all things." In effect, people are saying it's not our own personal responsibility to "handle the word of God aright" as long as we are loyally following along and not questioning (out loud) the teachings of the Governing Body. Yet, the Bible says:

(Romans 12:1, 2) 12 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

It has been suggested that if we exercise our personal Biblical responsibility to be "noble-minded" and are therefore "carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so," that this will result in 8 million different doctrines. But this does not happen if, in using our "powers of reason" we allow our "reasonableness to be known to all." It's the same reasonableness that will also remove all this fear of doing what the Bible tells us to do. 

(Philippians 4:5-8) . . .Let your reasonableness become known to all men.. . .Do not be anxious over anything . . . 7 and the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things.

So according to this passage, what would actually happen if we followed the Bible's counsel to test, and prove, make sure, and question, use our powers of reason? If we are haughty and presumptuous, we might still get into the kind of trouble that people fear. If we are reasonable, and are letting our reasonableness become known to all, then the following happens: We would not be anxious, but would look for a way to present our concerns in a serious way to those who are given the responsibility to make decisions about these matters. We do not disrespect the Governing Body, but accept that this is a perfectly good and reasonable way to let all things progress in an orderly, organized manner. 

Imagine if Russell received 40,000 letters from concerned Bible Students about the mistake he was making with respect to the pyramidology, along with bits of astrology and numerology that were beginning to permeate the Watch Tower publications for several decades. Imagine if Rutherford received 20,000 letters from concerned Bible Students about his presumptuous predictions regarding 1925. Imagine if Fred Franz received 1,000,000 letters from concerned Jehovah's Witnesses about how determined he was to promote predictions for the mid-1970's. Imagine if David Splane received many millions of letters questioning the new meaning we are now giving to the word "generation." This doesn't mean that Bible Students and Witnesses needed to say that the doctrines were not true. Only that it was always the Christian responsibility to question. How long would these prior doctrines have lasted if this was done? How many fewer people would have been stumbled by presumptuous statements?

Also, there is no need for those who question to come up with the solution. Isn't that why we have a Governing Body? To aid in making difficult decisions? And we should also note how easy it is to distinguish truth from speculation. Remember that the verse in Philippians said to continue considering "whatever things are true." Note the following sets of sentences:

• UNLABELED SPECULATION: Nebuchadnezzar must represent the Messianic Kingdom now being ruled by Christ.
• SPECULATION TRUTHFULLY LABELED: We believe it is reasonable that Nebuchadnezzar represents the Messianic Kingdom now being ruled by Christ
• TRUTH: We don't actually know for sure if Nebuchadnezzar represents the Messianic Kingdom now being ruled by Christ. Here's how we came up with this idea . . . . Please feel free to let us know if you think it is reasonable.

 

• UNLABELED SPECULATION: The facts in evidence prove beyond a doubt that 1925 will see the resurrection of Abraham and David.
• SPECULATION TRUTHFULLY LABELED: Based on our currently accepted chronology, along with a count of the Jubilees, we expect Abraham and David to be resurrected in 1925
• TRUTH: We don't actually know for sure if 1925 will be the date when Abraham and David will be resurrected, but we would certainly like to see that. Here's how we arrived at this date. ..... Please feel free to let us know if you think this is reasonable.

If it were any of us average elders, ministerial servants, pioneers, and publishers, then it would obvious that only haughtiness and presumptuousness would allow us to speculate but not label it as speculation. Perhaps we imagine the praise and accolades we would get if could show all kinds of esoteric knowledge and the ability to pull a piece from this scripture and that scripture, and it turned out to be right. Yet, considering "whatever things are true" requires humility. But reasonableness will move us to focus on truth instead speculation. Speculation, even if it is labeled correctly, is not as important as more serious things, along with righteous, chaste and lovable topics of consideration. Speculation would ultimately take a back seat to these things.

A couple times it was suggested that, perhaps, even if it was wrong, it has been a good thing. Perhaps, as some people thing, we would never have attracted millions of people into our religion, or they would not have remained as faithful, if it weren't for these speculative teachings, true or not. That possibility has been previously suggested by @bruceq under this very topic, when it was pointed out that the Watchtower has also taught that the wrong understanding of Paul was better than a correct understanding of Paul's words in Romans 13 from 1929 to 1962.

*** w96 5/1 pp. 13-14 God and Caesar ***
Progressive Understanding of “the Superior Authorities”
¹² As early as 1886, Charles Taze Russell wrote . . . "to obey the laws, and to respect those in authority because of their office, . . . to pay their appointed taxes, and except where they conflict with God’s laws" . . . This book correctly identified “the higher powers,” or “the superior authorities,” mentioned by the apostle Paul. . . that true Christians “should be found amongst the most law-abiding of the present time—not agitators, not quarrelsome, not fault-finders.” This was understood by some to mean total submission. . . . Obviously, a clearer understanding of Christian submission to the superior authorities was needed.
¹³ In 1929, at a time when laws of various governments were beginning to forbid things that God commands or demand things that God’s laws forbid, it was felt that the higher powers must be Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. This was the understanding Jehovah’s servants had during the crucial period before and during World War II and on into the Cold War, with its balance of terror and its military preparedness. Looking back, it must be said that this view of things, exalting as it did the supremacy of Jehovah and his Christ, helped God’s people to maintain an uncompromisingly neutral stand throughout this difficult period.

Notice that Russell had it correct, but an incorrect understanding of Paul's words "helped God's people" more. Even though the doctrine went from correct, to incorrect, to correct again, it is labeled a "Progressive Understanding." Most people would look at this as the most haughty and presumptuous kind of thinking, and I certainly hope that this same type of thinking doesn't cloud our understanding of Jesus' words in Matthew 24. It's the same as saying that false teachings are sometimes just fine and acceptable, assuming they were found in the Watchtower, even though we can still condemn false teachings everywhere else.

If you notice we never have had "false" doctrines; rarely do we even say they were "incorrect" or "untrue." We usually speak of them as  views that required "adjustment" or "refinement." If a prediction failed, then we were merely looking for "the right thing at the wrong time," or sometimes "the wrong thing at the right time." We were being "optimistic." Or there was a positive result in that it only stumbled all the new ones who joined Jehovah's Witnesses for the wrong reasons. For years, we called our teachings "present truth" which helped to explain how, even if they were proven to be false, they were still "present truth" while they were being taught. When we dropped at least 120 type-antitype doctrines, when they were no longer considered valid, this was not because we had been "indiscreet," but because the slave becomes "steadily more discreet":

*** w15 3/15 pp. 9-10 par. 10 “This Is the Way You Approved” ***
As we might expect, over the years Jehovah has helped “the faithful and discreet slave” to become steadily more discreet. Discretion has led to greater caution when it comes to calling a Bible account a prophetic drama unless there is a clear Scriptural basis for doing so.

With respect to expectations related to Matthew 24 beginning with Christ's parousia in 1874, we had even used those same "type-antitype" doctrines to show that we had no choice but to have incorrect expectations, because Jehovah had prophesied in advance that such mistakes would be made through the so-called prophetic narrative about Elijah. (See section below called: ELIJAH PROVES OUR CHRONOLOGY MISTAKES WERE PREDETERMINED.)

Several pages back in this topic @Arauna reminded me of this when she said:

On 8/3/2017 at 7:26 AM, Arauna said:

This is why our new "Gods Kingdom Rules" study  recently quoted Mal 3: 1-4. It was fulfilled in the time of John the Baptist (a messenger of preparation) as he prepared the way for Christ and the messenger of the Covenant (Christ). They also applied it to Russel and those who followed him as the 'messenger of preparation' before the "slave" was appointed. They were also thoroughly cleaned and beaten like one does when you wash washing with lye! (2 messengers  below!)

There is a lot of important information hidden behind this idea that "they applied it to Russell." If you look closely at the new book, we are NOW applying it to Russell and his close associates:

*** kr chap. 2 pp. 13-14 pars. 4-6 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
The prophecy explains that Jehovah would come with “the messenger of the covenant.” Who was that? None other than the Messianic King, Jesus Christ! . . .
5 Who, though, was the other “messenger,” the first one mentioned at Malachi 3:1? This prophetic figure would be on the scene well before the Messianic King’s presence. In the decades before 1914, did anyone “clear up a way” before the Messianic King?
6 Throughout this publication, we will find answers to such questions in the thrilling history of Jehovah’s modern-day people. This history shows that in the latter part of the 19th century, one small group of faithful people was emerging as the only body of genuine Christians in a vast field of imitations. That group came to be known as the Bible Students. Those taking the lead among them—Charles T. Russell and his close associates—did, indeed, act as the foretold “messenger,” giving spiritual direction to God’s people and preparing them for the events ahead. Let us consider four ways in which the “messenger” did so.

This might seem like an odd diversion, but it really relates directly to the discussion of our understanding of Matthew 24. We should note, in passing, that Rutherford taught that when he changed the understanding of Romans 13 [to the incorrect view], that this was a specific fulfillment of Bible prophecy and it was specific evidence of Jehovah's blessing on us, and a specific reason for the removal of his blessing from those who still believed in Russell's [correct] view.

Also we should note that while Rutherford applied the messenger and prophet "Elijah" to Russell, he applied the prophet Elisha to the time of his own administration, and made note that Elisha asked for a double-portion of Jehovah's spirit compared to Elijah - (Elisha received Elijah's mantle and performed twice as many miracles, etc.). Thus, when Nathan Knorr was president, Elijah was changed to be a prophetic picture of Rutherford's time (not Russell) and Elisha became the prophetic picture of Knorr's administration: At the end of this post, I'll add the references to show this, under the heading: HOW ELIJAH/ELISHA MOVED FROM RUSSELL/RUTHERFORD TO RUTHERFORD/KNORR RESPECTIVELY

But that was not the primary reason to revisit the Elijah/Elisha teachings of the Watch Tower publications.

ELIJAH PROVES OUR CHRONOLOGY MISTAKES WERE PREDETERMINED

One of the uses of the "type-antitype" prophecies was to perpetuate prejudices between the two classes of Witnesses as was done with the "prophecy of the prodigal son." The Elijah prophecy was used to effectively shift the blame to Jehovah for the mistakes that were made in making wrong chronology predictions. Note the April 15, 1918 Watchtower, p. 6237:

Several times during the harvest, during the progress of what seemed like plagues to Christendom, the Lord has permitted his people to think that they were about to go. Brother Russell expected the church to go beyond the vail in 1878, 1881, 1910, and 1914 -- just as with Elijah, who went with Elisha to four different places before he was actually taken. These seeming disappointments were divinely foreknown, "his appointments."

I think most of us can tell that this was not only a wrong use of a prophetic pulpit, but a presumptuous use of it. These are not brought up to show that our history can seem embarrassing, but hopefully to show how obvious it is that all of us should have been "on the watch" and ready to let our "reasonableness known to all." Our love for one another should have prompted that kind of association between the so-called "rank and file" and the "Governing Body."

HOW ELIJAH/ELISHA MOVED FROM RUSSELL/RUTHERFORD TO RUTHERFORD/KNORR RESPECTIVELY

Note that, after dropping Russell from the equation, the new prophetic explanation focused more on the specific persons of Rutherford and Knorr than it did on the particular time of their administration. Note chapter 16 and 17 of "Let Your Name Be Sanctified" [bracketed information added]

[page 314, par. 47]

The miracles that the "two witnesses" perform in fulfillment of the prophetic vision are of a spiritual kind. In the spring of 1918 the "wild beast," the one pictured in Revelation 13:1, 2 as rising out of the "abyss" of the sea, that is, the visible earthly organization of Satan the Devil, killed the witness work in its free public presentation. So it lay as if beheaded, like John.

[page 315, par 51-52]

This date 1914 therefore runs parallel with the date of Jesus' anointing, A.D. 29, to preach the "kingdom of the heavens" as having drawn near and to say: "The kingdom of God is in your midst." (Luke 17:21) What then? Three and a half years from A.D. 29 to 33 (spring passover time) would find its modern parallel three and a half years from the fall of 1914 to the spring passover season of 1918. . . .  [In 1918] Jehovah with his "messenger of the covenant" should come invisibly to his spiritual temple to cleanse it and to judge. 

[Note that we no longer teach that 1918 was significant, nor that it was the time when Jesus came to his spiritual temple.]

[page 318, par. 4]

but in the quiet of the first postwar year, A.D. 1919, came the "calm, low voice" from the quiet pages of God's written Word, pages now further illuminated with the light of recent fulfillment of prophecies.

[Note that none of the prophecies that were further illuminated at this time are currently considered to be true: the great campaign of 1919 was the prediction that visible manifestations of Christ's kingdom must come in 1925 and that there was more evidence for this than there had been about 1914. Everything that happened from 1914 to 1919 illuminated the fact that all the expectations about 1914 were wrong.]

7 In 1942, in the throes of World War II, the Elijah work passed.  It passed away…. It was taken away in divine favor….but it finished with success and in integrity. It left the interests of God’s kingdom to a faithful successor who would cling to the commission from God through the anointed Elijah class, just the same as this successor had stuck to the Elijah class to the end. The carrying out of the Elijah commission kept on without a hitch.

8 The anointed Elisha class undertook the responsibility of carrying out fully the divine commission as symbolized by Elijah’s official garment. Five days after Rutherford’s death the boards of directors of the Watch Tower corporations for New York and for Pennsylvania held a joint meeting and unanimously elected N. H. Knorr, one of the anointed remnant, to be president of both corporations of the Society. There was grief over the passing of a faithful fellow worker, but there was no interruption of the work for the sentimental purpose of mourning over the dead. The change in personnel did not cripple the work, because this is not a man’s organization but God’s visible organization on earth. …

9 To get back to work with the “sons of the prophets,” Elisha had to make a test of God’s spirit upon him and get back across the Jordan River. He did so by repeating Elijah’s miracle of causing the waters of the Jordan to divide. Likewise with the Elisha class in 1942. …

10 In the very same [Feb. 1, 1942] issue of The Watchtower that announced the death of J. F. Rutherford as “a faithful witness,” appeared the special leading article entitled “Final Gathering.”…

The Elijah/Elisha themes and motifs have been one of the longest running "type-antitype" prophecies to run through the pages of the Watchtower, throughout early issues in the 1800's on up until about 2003, with the points in the quoted paragraphs above explicitly promoted even in 1997.

THE MORAL OF THE STORY

These points were added here partially because they were alluded to by Arauna, but they as part of the discussion above, they show that speculation is often used for presumptuous self-aggrandizement. These are doctrines that have been dropped (mostly) but would not likely have lasted as long as they did if so many Witnesses did not shrink back from their Christian responsibility. It shows no disrespect to question; it shows that we obey God as ruler rather than men. Anything beyond what was already taught in the Christian Greek Scriptures should have seemed like anathema to us. No Bible Student nor any Jehovah's Witnesses should have felt afraid to question it and discuss it openly.

(Galatians 1:10) 10 Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave.

The Governing Body, who are highly regarded just as those in Jerusalem were, are still to be respected and their opinions clearly matter, as they are the ones appointed to help us with such questions. Paul respected their position:

(Galatians 2:2) . . .This was done privately, however, before the men who were highly regarded, to make sure that I was not running or had not run in vain.

But he also reminded us:

(Galatians 2:6-10) . . .But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. . . .  James and Ceʹphas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, . . .They asked only that we keep the poor in mind, and this I have also earnestly endeavored to do.

Notice that the "governing body" focused on the important things ("keep the poor in mind"), and yet other potential problems were taken care of by questioning this same governing body. In Paul's case he said to Cephas:

(Galatians 2:14) . . .I said to Ceʹphas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”

The apostle Paul had spiritual qualifications to point this out publicly, and of course had an obligation at that level to handle it this way. But Paul also writes to entire Galatian congregation(s) to remind them:

(Galatians 6:1-5) 6 Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. But keep an eye on yourself, for fear you too may be tempted. 2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

Even though we should give respect to all older men, including the ones we call the "Governing Body" Jesus said that

(Matthew 23:8-12) 8 . . . one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. . . . 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The term "Governing Body" is a legal term, not a Biblical one, and we know there is no separate "body" within the "body" of Christ, only "members" of his congregation. We should give them double honor and respect for their function as a committee of elders appointed to handle questions, their role in teaching, and as administrators of the functions of the congregation. One of the ways we show them respect is to see them, not as leaders, but as brothers. True respect includes questioning, not fear of questioning.

[Anna]

I had wanted to answer some points further up the thread, but I'm so backlogged due to lack of time, that I'd rather address your latest post before I get really behind.

 

16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

REASONABLENESS versus PRESUMPTUOUSNESS; or, TRUTH versus SPECULATION

It has even been suggested that perhaps the teaching about 1914 really is wrong, or perhaps it's not, but it's not really our responsibility to "test" what we believe and "make sure of all things." In effect, people are saying it's not our own personal responsibility to "handle the word of God aright" as long as we are loyally following along and not questioning (out loud) the teachings of the Governing Body

Just today, during the WT study, this very thing came to mind when we were going through Par. 16: "From time to time, our understanding of a Bible prophecy or some Scriptural passage may be adjusted. When such new understandings are provided, we ought to take time to study the information carefully and meditate on it. (Acts 17:11; 1 Tim. 4:15) We seek to understand clearly not only the major adjustments but also the subtle differences between the old understanding and the new one. In this way, we are certain to place the new truth securely in our own treasure store". July WT 2017 p.25

So here the advice is that we SHOULD study the information carefully and meditate on it.    This is assuming that the only thing preventing us from accepting the new understanding as our own is if we don't take time to study the information carefully, but what may happen is after we've studied the "new understanding" carefully is that we may actually not see it that way....

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Please feel free to let us know if you think it is reasonable.

If you are meaning the GB could/should say that, then I very much doubt they ever would.

 

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TiagoBelager said:

I do not believe that there is a Parousia separate from the enthronement event; the Parousia does not come later only after the time when Jesus took his heavenly throne, for Revelation alerts us that there would be a "short while" from Jesus' enthronement (Parousia) until the time when Satan's reign is over.

Obviously, Revelation doesn't identify the enthronement as the Parousia, so that this first sentence (on its own) comes close to a type of circular reasoning. It's like saying "I don't believe they are separate because when Revelation mentions one of the two events, I don't believe they are separate there, either. Of course, I know you are focusing on the "short while" from an enthronement to the time the Parousia is over. (Which is at the end of the thousand year reign, per your posts.) But you are still defining Parousia according to beliefs that are not stated in Scripture.

The Bible says that Jesus reigning as king is the equivalent of "sitting at God's right hand." We should have already known that from all the references to his Kingship in the first century. He is called "King of Kings" not the future King of Kings. He is said to have been given a position above all governments and lordships and above every name named when he sat down at the right hand of God.

Remember, please, that 1914 was supposed to be the true "end of the Gentile Times" which should be defined as the time when "he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power." That's actually how it was defined when it was predicted for 1914. (And then 1915, and then 1918, and then 1925.) So the "predicted" end of the Gentile Times never occurred in 1914 anyway.

But Jesus was already enthroned at his resurrection when he sat down at the right hand of God. The claim that this was just over his congregation is not scriptural:

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Ephesians 1:20, 21) . . .Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(Hebrews 7:2) . . .First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.”

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:4, 5) . . ., 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

(Revelation 2:26) 26 And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,

(Revelation 3:21) 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Of course, there are many more Scriptures than that, but there is one particular one, that might be especially relevant here:

(1 Corinthians 15:23-26) 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence [or, AT HIS PAROUSIA]. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

Notice how Paul replaces the phrase "He will sit at God's right hand" with "he must rule as king." In fact, notice that when the Gentile Times are over Paul refers to it as "the end" as in, the final end, not merely a conclusion or a 100+ year presence. Christ is resurrected, then those who belong to Christ are resurrected at his parousia to join him in the destruction of those Gentile governments and authorities and powers.

Until that time those who belong to the Christ (spritual Israel: "Jerusalem") have been warred upon and trampled upon by the Gentile, but they join him in battling and putting an end to all Gentile rulership:

(Revelation 13:7) . . .permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. [Gentiles]

(Revelation 17:14) 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

(Revelation 2:26, 27) . . .And to the one who conquers and observes my deeds down to the end, I will give authority over the nations,[Gentiles] 27 and he will shepherd the people with an iron rod so that they will be broken to pieces like clay vessels, just as I have received from my Father.

The specific argument made from the term "short while" is not definitive. That's because from Jehovah's perspective, the time has been short since the last days began.

(1 Peter 1:4-6) . . ., 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time. 6 Because of this you are greatly rejoicing, though for a short time. . .

(1 Corinthians 7:29) 29 Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced.. . .

(1 Peter 4:7) 7 But the end of all things has drawn close. Therefore, be sound in mind, and be vigilant with a view to prayers.

(Romans 13:11) 11 And do this because you know the season, that it is already the hour for you to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers.

(Revelation 1:3) 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near.

In fact, the Devil knew that he was in the last days when Jesus already saw him fall like lightning, and this is why the Devil has worked against Christians for the short period of time ever since.

(1 Peter 5:7-10) . . .. 8 Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world. 10 But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training.. . .

Does this not describe the Devil as angry, "seeking to devour" yet for Christians, they know that he has only a "short period of time" so that they suffer only a "little while"?

Remember that Revelation need not prophesy the future in every case, but can also "reveal" things from a heavenly perspective. Of course, these truths are not always limited to a specific period of time, either. It is just as likely that these same truths come to a more complete fulfillment at the very end, and even more finally definitive again at the end of the thousand years, when "nations" are mentioned again.

2 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

Why give us such details in prophecy if God's people living in the last days are not meant to know their meaning/import for them -- to know why there is a period of greatly increased woe upon the earth? It is all of a piece; there are events occurring in these last days that we are meant to know marks establishment of God's Kingdom. Yes, they occur in the Lord's day; they help us see when the Parousia began. It extends from 1914 until the time when Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father.

Revelation can still mean several different things, just as our own Watch Tower publications have given different meanings to the same verses many times over the last 140 years or so. We can't know the final meaning of it yet, but we should no better than to try to force it to contradict other scriptures.

And one of those contradictions is the idea that Jesus said not to look for signs like wars, earthquakes, pestilence and famine. He said these things would continue to take place, but these are NOT signs of the final end (synteleia). These are the very kinds of things that Jesus said would mislead us. And the reason, is pretty obvious from the rest of the chapter: because a thief gives no sign that he is about to break into your house. The parousia must come as a surprise. People will go along and do the kinds of things they have always been doing, just like they did in the days of Noah and Sodom. But the real and final end, the synteleia, will come as a surprise. Therefore, the SIGN is the sign of the Son of Man.

5 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

We should not have discerned such a Parousia so long as we did not have, among other things,  the book of Revelation in hand. It clarifies Greek vocabulary for us, and shows us that many things begin occurring of special interest for, and involvement of, true Christians living in the last days since the Lord's enthronement and before he implements judgment against the wicked.

I believe this too, only I think that all these things have have glimpses of fulfillment from the very first century:

(1 Corinthians 10:11) 11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

5 hours ago, TiagoBelager said:

. So, Revelation must also be included as part of what God's people rove about in, in order that their knowledge should increase. It increases gradually and thus not by inspiration, not even inspiration for sake of correction . . . else why do we see it specified that roving about (in Bible prophecy, e.g., in Daniels's prophecies) at "the time of the end"/"end of the days" (vv. 4, 12 i.e., "the last days") would be the thing that results in knowledge becoming abundant, increasing? (Daniel 12:4, 8-13).

It absolutely was. Note that Daniel was sealed up until the time of the end when Jesus arrived upon the earth and what we needed to know about the future could then all be revealed at that time. In fact, this is why Revelation is written at the time when all the scrolls could be unsealed, because the time had arrived:

(Galatians 4:4) 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son. . .

(Ephesians 1:8-10) 8 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding 9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .

All prophecy pointed to Christ. The full limit of the appointed times arrived, and there is nothing more to measure by means of chronology. If there were, it would contradict dozens of scriptures, many of which have been previously mentioned.

 

 

[JW Insider]

THE SIGN (pt 1 of 2)

As already mentioned in a previous post, we (JWs) are not the only people who read Matthew 24 as if it must mean that things like war, earthquakes, famines and pestilence are part of a sign that proves the end is near. As these things get worse, we have faith that our deliverance is near. And there is nothing wrong with finding that kind of comfort in Matthew 24. But there is another way to understand why Jesus specifically mentioned those particular "signs". In fact, a close look at Jesus' words in all the gospel accounts might even indicate that this other way of reading it is more likely.

The basic idea behind this "other way to understand" the signs, actually starts out in the Watch Tower publications during the time of C T Russell. The following is from Russell's Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, p. 567:

The History of Eighteen Centuries Briefly Foretold
--Matt. 24:6-13; Mark 13:7-13; Luke 21:9-19--

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumors [threats, intrigues] of wars: see that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are primary sorrows." Matt. 24:6-8

Thus briefly did our Lord summarize secular history, and teach the disciples not to expect very soon his second coming and glorious Kingdom. And how aptly: surely the world's history is just this--an account of wars, intrigues, famines and pestilences--little else.

Notice that these are NOT considered to be signs of Jesus presence or Parousia. These were considered to be the common occurrences plaguing throughout all of the 18 centuries of history since around 33 CE. They were, in essence, the OPPOSITE of signs that his Parousia was close. Jesus' disciples would hear about many things that might mislead them into thinking they were signs of the end, but they were simply things that would be expected through any time of history.

Based on a lot of the information already presented, it's possible to read Matthew 24 with the following meanings. This is not a translation, of course, and it is not even a paraphrase. It's more of a paraphrase with a lot of extra commentary added, along with expanded definitions of words based on some historical context, in order to present a probable meaning that Jesus could have had in mind in answering the question.

It's not meant to be the only correct way to read Matthew 24, of course, but it's one of the possible ways to understand the account.

Disciples: Aren't these Temple buildings magnificent and beautiful?

Jesus: Yes, but take note: look at these buildings again, and remember that they are all going to be completely destroyed, right down to the very last stone.

Disciples: WHEN? Please tell us when this is going to happen. How soon? [Are you going to make this happen NOW?] Are you saying that THIS IS GOING TO BE THE SIGN OF YOUR VISITATION OF JUDGMENT [that you have spoken about]? ARE YOU SAYING THAT THIS IS THE FINAL END OF ALL THINGS? THE END OF THIS AGE? WILL WE GET AN ADVANCE WARNING SIGN?

Jesus: Don't be misled. It's going to be very easy to be misled [because you have heard that it was said, there would be signs like war, earthquakes, famines, and the like before the great day]. Now that I've told you about this great world-changing judgment event, it's going to be very tempting, whenever you hear about a great earthquake, or a great war, or a great famine, for example, that you are going to say: "Oh, this must be a sign of the end." But do not be misled, do not be alarmed. These things will surely happen, [just as things like this always keep happening] but this is NOT the sign of the end. These things are NOT the sign of my visitation. And even if these things sometimes get to be so bad that you are SURE it must be a sign of the end, just remember that in the REAL end of all things, things could get so much worse for you, that you will realize that these so-called signs were just the BEGINNING.

Think of these things like a woman's first sign of labor pains. They might be painful, and you might even think: This must be the sign! The baby is surely on it's way this time! But those pains are nothing compared to the pain of actually giving birth.

But even before that, you need to realize that people are going to claim to speak in my name, or even say they are representing me, or perhaps even say they are me. Perhaps they will even be sure that they are telling the truth because they are the only ones who truly understand what I'm about to tell you. But they will mislead many people. These are also the same ones who are going to point to wars, even just rumors of wars, too, or great earthquakes, or famines, and the like. Do not be misled by this kind of thinking. These things are not related to your question about the true end, my true "PAROUSIA" JUDGMENT EVENT, and the true "SYNTELEIA" FINAL END AND DESTRUCTION OF THIS WORLD.

[To really prepare for such a judgment event, it's not going to be as easy as just watching for a warning sign so that you can get away.] In fact, you should prepare for persecution and tribulation. Some of you will even be killed. You will be hated because of your association with me. You might be betrayed, and some of this hatred might even come through stumbling and misunderstanding of persons you know. False prophets will mislead many people. And some who seem friendly and loving now and ready to face all these problems, will not remain that way when things really get worse. You will need to endure all the way to the end to be saved. And you must continue giving the announcement about this Kingdom right up until the end. 

What I can tell you about getting away from this initial judgment event (parousia/synteleia) on Jerusalem is this: When the judgment event begins, FLEE IMMEDIATELY! Don't even go back inside your house to get clothes and supplies. You will be able to recognize when this judgment event has begun when you see persons of the nations encroaching upon the holy place. You will remember what Daniel said:

(Daniel 9:26, 27) . . .“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”

This is the beginning of a true judgment event the likes of which you have never seen. Nothing like it has ever happened upon Jerusalem before. It's going to be worse than even the tribulation upon Jerusalem back in Daniel's day. It's only because there will be a break in the tribulation that any persons in Jerusalem will survive at all.

[etc. to be continued]

[TrueTomHarley]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:48 AM, TiagoBelager said:

Revelation alerted early Christians that much more should have to be accomplished by Christians before they would get their reward of the crown of everlasting life.

Yes. 

And the apostle Peter declares that “the end of all things has drawn close.” (1 Peter 4:7) When the Jewish system of things effectively ends with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, that is not the end he had in mind. Nevertheless, he probably drops to his knees and thanks God that he was not among those at the Jerusalem Hyatt for celebrations just then. He doesn’t grouse about being misled by whomever that 70 CE was not the big one. It was big enough. When they tell him they were just tacking, he doesn't complain about it.

[Guest J.R. Ewing]

5 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

Thank you for your reply.   I really don't want to go verbal fisticuffs, so let me apologize for sounding and acting less than loving.   To explain myself, I come to this site to learn and be challenged by other's insights and knowledge plus the bantering about of ideas.  I like to learn from a variety of sources.

Dear SuzieQ1513

Scripture does NOT prevent anyone from gaining true knowledge and grow, Peter 3:18, since asking questions is how we “all” learn to gain wisdom. The “mistake” that has come to this forum is not so much as asking questions, but rather dictate the flaws, some individuals you mentioned have bestowed in their hearts. By doing so, then the “message” of searching scripture to see what is “written” is in “harmony” with scripture, NOT personal opinions become a distraction. Therefore, the extent of this knowledge becomes detrimental to those that don’t understand scripture to begin with. Jesus position was to “help” people come to his understanding about his father. The Apostles also relayed the same message they had been taught by Christ; to come to understand the message of our creator and his purpose for humanity from that point on. Now, there is only “one” true GOD. I Understand, the usage of his proper name here might seem exulting him, but, to quote God’s inspired word’s:

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" (KJV; also "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God" (NRSV) and variants) is one of the Ten Commandments. It is a prohibition of blasphemy, specifically, the misuse or "taking in vain" of the name of the God of Israel. ... (KJV).

This might NOT seem important in modern times, however, if we really came to the truth NOT for “dates” but to develop a good relationship with our creator, then, Jesus word’s must also apply.

Matthew 5:17-20English Standard Version (ESV)

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

¹⁷ “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ¹⁸ For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. ¹⁹ Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

By using God’s proper name SO sparingly in “debates” or as it’s done here, the majority of times with “arguments” then, it’s the obligation and responsibility of “each generation” What GOD expect to receive from the knowledge gained by the wisdom of the older generation to be obedient to his words.

The front webpage suggests the following:

Welcome To Our Community

The most intelligent people on planet Earth hang out on this forum. Be ready to have your points of view challenged and refined

You signified, learning from other intellects. Ask, then, how can one learn from the actions of the “Pharisees” that Jesus mentioned?

Matthew 23:2-4New International Version (NIV)

² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. ³ So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. ⁴ They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

of having a far “worse” penalty for promoting their own understanding, rather than, God’s, with that of people that promote their personal understanding, here.

Revelation 22:18-19New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. ¹⁹ And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Then, as I earlier referenced about, “deception”? In the manner in which your intellect is being challenged by those purported intellects, which scripture reminds us of the consequences.

1 Timothy 1:3-4New International Version (NIV)

Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers

³ As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer ⁴ or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

 

1 Timothy 4:12-16New International Version (NIV)

¹² Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity. ¹³ Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. ¹⁴ Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

¹⁵ Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. ¹⁶ Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Peter 2:14New International Version (NIV)

¹⁴ With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!

Acts 20:29-30New International Version (NIV)

²⁹ I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. ³⁰ Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.     

5 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

JTR clarified his position (I did ask him the same question I asked you sometime ago), I "get" him now and he makes me laugh and shake my head and makes me spill my coffee on my keyboard at times.   He's a character but doesn't take himself so serious (see my post regarding "happy pants").  He's a grumpy but likable guy and he loves dogs (which says a lot). 

I don’t believe, there is anyone here not drawn to humor. However, JTR’s “darken” humor cannot be called other than what it really is, insulting. However, it seems JTR is a long contributor to this site, and the “moderator’s” look the other way when it comes to displaying an intellectual conservatorship with such an unworthy task.

5 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

You did explain your loyalties to GOD but I'm not sure which GOD ( the Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, etc) since you didn't use His name.  You mention the Watchtower, but I'm confused, are you for or against?  Is your position to draw people towards or away from the JW org using flaws in dating ( did I misinterpret what you were trying to do?). 

No confusion here. My comments speak volumes in “defense” of the Watchtower. Remember:

"A picture is worth a thousand words" is an English language-idiom. It refers to the notion that a complex idea can be conveyed with just a single still image or that an image of a subject conveys its meaning or essence more effectively than a description does.

A picture I do not seek, in opposition of the Watchtower.

5 hours ago, SuziQ1513 said:

To be honest, fighting over dating  ( like the unrelenting prairie winds)  gives me a headache, can't see the point when the fruits of the JW organization are beautifully evident.   Producing good fruit is what Jesus taught and learned from his Father, Jehovah.    So if I came across as irritated ( not bitter) I was but I do apologize for that.   I just wanted to know YOUR honest intentions (it's still not clear to me).   If I'm in the wrong place, show me where I should be to find greater treasures than I now have.

The Watchtower, symbolic chronology benefits those that truly understand the reasoning behind it.  Then people will realize the meaning of the word “generation” among other things mentioned in the heading. The “Bible Students” understanding dealt with a complex methodology, that became difficult to the layman. Then, “David Splane” simplified that understanding that apparently hasn’t taken hold for some here, since now they indicate he changed the understanding, even though it continues to be the same.

To understand “generations”? one only needs is to understand the Apostle Matthews words in:

Matthew 24:42-44New International Version (NIV)

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁴ So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

If there is NO understanding of this simple bible passage, then God’s Holy Spirit is absent and does NOT dwell with individuals that “fail” to understand the significance, of “KEEP WATCH” and what it means to each generation.

A good example can be found with Jesus perceived insight to a generation that he “wouldn’t be part of in the book of Luke By Apostle Matthew.

Luke 21:5-38New International Version (NIV)

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

²⁰ “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. ²¹ Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. ²² For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

We know the beginning scenario of Jesus words, however, WHAT was Jesus warning about in verse 8. Can you see the parallel here with the avocation against the “SIGNS”? Now bring this into perspective. Was Jesus Alive! In 66CE? By 66CE, there were but 2 Apostles left to preach the gospel of Christ as he himself taught it. Once again, as illustrated by Jesus with the Flood event. Were people “completely” unaware that something was going on by people seeing Noah building an object they had never seen or experienced? Noah was a prophet. Can it be conceivable that Noah kept God’s warning a “secret”? Loose lips sink ships! Every time someone came up to him and asked, what are you building. Noah was a righteous man before GOD. Scripture states he walked with GOD.

Genesis 6:9New International Version (NIV)

Noah and the Flood

⁹ This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Can we “honestly” speculate that Noah would remain silent? And NOT have informal witnessing to whoever he came across? Being a “righteous” man?

This would mean that GOD was a GOD of vengeance and a hateful GOD. Where in scripture does it indicate such fallacy by the one true god? The account of “Abraham” should be able to answer that. Didn’t GOD give Abraham an assurance if he found righteous people within the cities of Sodom and Gomorra, to spare these two cities?

Genesis 18:16-33New International Version (NIV)

Abraham Pleads for Sodom

 

²² The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.^[b]23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? ²⁴ What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare^[c] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? ²⁵ Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

²⁶ The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

²⁷ Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, ²⁸ what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

²⁹ Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

 

Therefore, the same could be said about Noah’s time. God gave humanity a “chance” and a “choice” to redeem their evil ways, just like the people in the twin cities. Jesus also gave the same conditions to the “JEWS”. So, those that “accepted” Jesus words of the “SIGNS” were able to stay free of harm when the destruction of Jerusalem came in 70AD. So, those “sIGNS” or the purpose of those signs becomes an “obligation” of Christ followers to pass on to the next generation, and that’s what the Watchtower has been doing for over 130 years.

Therefore, the “Gentile times” that is NOT “SPECIFICALLY” mentioned in scripture becomes part of a “sign” that each generation has come to know and pass along with whatever other signs might be relevant to the “end times”. So, while we should NOT fear the prospect of end times? It’s still the obligation and responsibility for each generation to pass along what they have learned and become, what, a?

WITNESS! Or became a WITNESS TO! what sign!

Then, by definition, the invisible presence, signs, generations, gentile times, end times become relevant to a TRUE HONEST WITNESS, that holds faith in GOD that his promise will one day be fulfilled. We might not be part of it, but that’s shouldn’t be our concern. Our concern lies with teaching the NEXT generation on what the last generation “LEARNED”.

With the utmost regard to your sentiment, I affirm the same to you. The BEST place to be, is in GOD’s heart, surrounded by those that have the same unchallengeable faith.

[JW Insider]

The SIGN (pt 2 of 2)

In the first part (The SIGN, pt 1 of 2) it was indicated that Jesus had been asked about a sign because the disciples wanted to know when this complete destruction of the temple was going to occur. Jesus indicates that they can expect all kinds of troubles right up until the judgment on Jerusalem begins, but that there would be no advance warning signs. Of course, people would be claiming that this or that sign was the evidence, but these would be from people who misunderstand, some sincere, some just false prophets, who would claim they understood various events as part of the sign. This becomes more evident, I think, when we pick up in the middle of Jesus' answer that ended above with the paragraph that loosely matches Matthew 24:21-22. I'll repeat that last paragraph before going on:

Jesus: This is the beginning of a true judgment event the likes of which you have never seen. Nothing like it has ever happened upon Jerusalem before. It's going to be worse than even the tribulation upon Jerusalem back in Daniel's day. It's only because there will be a break in the tribulation that any persons in Jerusalem will survive at all.

When you now find yourselves in the midst of this judgment event upon Jerusalem [this Parousia], it is even more important that you are not misled by false signs. Expect people to say that the Christ is here or there. Or you might meet someone who claims to be Christ. And they could even be performing powerful works. This can even mislead the chosen ones. But I am warning you in advance.

And people are also going to say that Christ is around here or there, but you just can't see him right now because he is in some other place, like out in the desert, or he's here but he is just not visible to you now because he is in some inner room. Don't believe it. You'll know that can't be true because the true PAROUSIA is going to be like LIGHTNING that shines from one end of the horizon all the way over to the other horizon. You personally will have no reason to doubt it when you see it anyway, because circumstances will make it obvious, the same as if two people were working or sleeping together and one just suddenly disappeared, leaving the other behind. Anyone could spot these circumstances from a mile away. (L17:37)

Because the true SIGN that you are asking about can't appear until immediately AFTER those days when the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven. That's the significance of the change that will come about for you when Jerusalem falls completely. There will be no more Jewish system of things. Your entire world will change. Only THEN will the TRUE SIGN appear: the SIGN of the Son of Man [the equivalent of the Parousia judgment event now ready to come upon the entire world at any time].

When the full and complete SIGN of the Son of Man does appear in heaven AFTER those days, it will be when ALL the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, when they will ALL see the Son of Man appear in heaven with power and great glory. This is when he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound to gather together, to "HARVEST," the chosen ones from one end of the earth to the other.

(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52) . . .We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

(Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. . . . 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . .

[So it should be clear that you aren't going to get any specific sign or signs until the TRUE SIGN, the SIGN of the Son of Man. And since that's the ONLY sign, then it's only when you see ALL these other things have happened [right up until the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars, that you know that the SIGN, the Son of Man, is now finally NEAR at the doors. [So again, this is a reason why you won't be misled by anyone claiming that I had already arrived, here or there performing powerful works or giving signs to fool even the chosen ones, or that I had arrived over here or over there, but that you just couldn't see me because I was not visible, and off in the wilderness or hidden in a room.] Because NOW you know that I am NEAR, and just about to arrive. You won't need any advance sign, and you won't get any advance sign, because you already know what season you are in. You are in the final season before the harvest. Just like the fig tree that grows young branches and leaves you know that summer harvest is near. You, too, are in the final generation that will come to see this particular "harvest." It will happen as sure as you know that summer comes around.

[But you might still wonder why I give you no advance warning sign.] It's because "Concerning that day and hour, NO ONE CAN KNOW, not even the angels. Not even the Son knows. Only the Father knows. [Because the times and seasons are in HIS jurisdiction.] It's going to be just like it was for most of the people before the Flood in the days of Noah. The PAROUSIA, judgment event, back then came as if with no warning. [It's true that Noah did some preaching, and the people should have repented when they found out what God purposed to do.] But those people just went right on living there life without a care, RIGHT UP UNTIL THE VERY DAY that Noah went into the ark and the judgment event surprised them and swept them all away. That's the same as it will be with the PAROUSIA of the Son of Man. [The PAROUSIA will also come upon the world just as it came upon the people of Sodom, who had no idea what was going to happen to them RIGHT UP UNTIL THE VERY DAY that Lot went out of the city and it rained fire and sulphur, and the judgment event took them away by surprise. It's as if two men were in the field, and without any warning, one gets taken along -- disappears -- and the other, to his surprise, is abandoned. [That's how sudden and surprising and without warning it will be.] It's as if two women were grinding at the same hand mill, and one woman suddenly disappears, and the other is suddenly abandoned. Imagine the surprise. [But that's the way it's going to have to be, and of course, it couldn't be that way if I gave you any kind of advance warning sign.]

[You might think that because you are part of the chosen ones, that I would certainly grant you some kind of sign, but it won't be that way this time.] It's just like when a thief comes to your house one night. If there had been some kind of announcement then the householder would have known and would not have been surprised. But you need to be ready at all times, because you, even though you are chosen ones, you won't know when I am coming. It will be at a time you don't expect it.

So I'm going to give you a few more illustrations to help you remember what is required to be ready at all times. First is an illustration about a faithful slave and an unfaithful slave. What happens when the master leaves a large household full of servants, and must leave the servants in charge of running the household smoothly until he returns? What happens when that return might be delayed? How do the servants usually act? What kind of actions would show a servant to be faithful and wise? What kind of actions would show a servant to be a wicked slave?  etc...

Here's another illustration about foolish and wise virgins. [Same idea.] Here's the situation . . . what would show these virgins to have been wise? What would show these virgins to have been foolish? etc...

Remember the point: keep on the watch because you will not know the day or the hour.

Here's another illustration about foolish and wise slaves who are given investments by their master. Here's the situation . . . What would show whether these slaves were foolish or wise?

Here's another illustration about how when the Son of Man comes in glory, and all the angels with him, about how the "harvest" separates sheep-like persons from goat-like persons. . . What would show whether these persons were sheep-like, or goat-like? etc. . .

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

The front webpage suggests the following:

Welcome To Our Community   The most intelligent people on planet Earth hang out on this forum

Possibly they are overstating matters a bit

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TiagoBelager said:

I would not want you at my side in field service. You do not preach the same message of the Kingdom that Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Your last post shows me that you are a preterist. Your message that you preach here does not cohere with the Scriptures. You say that you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses? No, you are not; in your heart you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am not a preterist. That's because I believe the PAROUSIA and SYNTELEIA and APOKALYPSIS and EPIPHANEIA and THERISMOS (and millennium, of course) are still future. I also believe that Jesus has already been enthroned in kingdom power, sits at God's right hand, and that his invisible presence has begun, and that we are living in the last days, and that the times we are living in give proof that the only real solution to man's problems is the intervention by the Kingdom of God through Christ Jesus. This is the message that I preach, because I look for agreement in the congregation not disagreement.

(1 Corinthians 1:10) 10 Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

What I think might be true, or it might not be. I hope and expect to be set straight if these scriptures and evidence are not understood correctly. There are several people at Bethel who know exactly what my questions are and they know why these questions should be dealt with. I know that people have been thought of as not true Jehovah's Witnesses for having these questions, but I have never caused trouble** with my beliefs, have never been sanctioned for them, and have never lost privileges over them except to the extent that I have turned down a few assignments and have always been able to swap assignments with others if I felt I could not conscientiously present the material as assigned. My public talk assignments typically cycle through 5 of the outlines talks, and I have given at least 20 different outline talks, and a few different non-outline talks over the years, and there is not one thing in any of those talks that I disagree with in the slightest.

**If you think that being on a discussion forum is "causing trouble," remember that anyone here can easily think of me, or at least pretend to think of me, as merely expressing the kinds of questions that can come up in field service due to the fact that all of these arguments have existed in some form or another for hundreds of years. Consider this a chance to practice overcoming objections, just as we sometimes hear in sample demonstrations at the midweek meetings.

If you have been to the convention this year you might actually hear some preterist-sounding discussion on Sunday regarding Daniel 12. In effect, believing all of it was fulfilled in the past produces nearly the same effect as preterism. But what must have sounded the most preterist in my previous post is actually found in the Watchtower, although these points have gone through some slight adjustment, but never explicitly abandoned. Here's an example regarding the destruction of Jerusalem and the "great tribulation."

*** w78 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
In view of the terrible destruction of Dresden, Stalingrad, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II, how could Jesus describe what befell Jerusalem in 70 C.E. as a ‘great tribulation such as had never occurred before, nor would occur again’?
That prophecy had a future application beyond what occurred to Jerusalem and on the Jews in 70 C.E., but it also was true as to the history of that city and nation.
These words are in Jesus’ prophetic reply to the apostles’ question about his future presence and the conclusion of the system of things. (Matt. 24:3, 21; Mark 13:19) Jehovah’s Witnesses have often pointed out that much of what Jesus there foretold had two fulfillments: First, a limited fulfillment in the developments leading up to and including the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. . . .
For Christians living in Jerusalem and Judea who would be directly affected by the end of the Jewish system of things, the warning to keep alert was vital. The Roman armies surrounded the city in 66 C.E., but then unexpectedly withdrew. That was the specific signal that Jesus had mentioned in Luke 21:20-22. And history tells us that obedient Christians responded by fleeing from the city of Jerusalem and from Judea. So it is reasonable to apply also to the literal city of Jerusalem and Judea what Jesus next said, about the “great tribulation.”
The destruction brought by the Romans in 70 C.E. was more extensive and terrible than when the Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. Also, the tribulation in 70 C.E. brought the permanent destructive end to the Jewish-built city and temple and the system of worship centered around it. So Jesus was correct in prophetically describing the events in 70 C.E. as “great tribulation such as has not occurred [on that city, nation and system of things] since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”
. . .

And since then we have many times expressed that these words had an exact meaning for the first fulfillment, even if that fulfillment is considered miniature compared to the judgment event that brings a "destructive end" [SYNTELEIA] upon all the nations.

*** w81 11/15 p. 18 pars. 8-9 ‘Stay Awake and Keep Your Senses’ ***
8 However, Christians who had stayed awake and had kept their senses were already out of Jerusalem and all Judea, having fled to places of security when the opportunity came after the year 66 C.E. By believing the prophetic words of Jesus and acting upon them, they survived. But, when that “great tribulation” came upon the Jews in 70 C.E., there was no longer any time for them to flee. Several thousand who tried to get out of the city through the Roman encirclement were caught by soldiers, who even cut open some of those Jews to get the gold that many of them had swallowed. . . .
9 That was indeed a severe “tribulation” that came upon the Jews, exactly as Jesus had foretold. (Luke 19:43, 44)

*** w83 8/1 p. 24 par. 9 “The Israel of God” and the End of the Gentile Times ***
What the inquiring apostles witnessed down to the end of the first century C.E. was a miniature fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy, in the way of famines, earthquakes, pestilences, wars and persecutions, as well as the wiping out of “the Jerusalem today.”

There have even been Watchtower articles that indicated that all of the features, up until the actual "sign" were fulfilled in the first century. This included the wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences and even the preaching of the good news in all the inhabited earth had a fulfillment in the first century:

(Romans 10:16-18) 16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. . . . the word about Christ. 18 But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.”

(2 Timothy 4:17) 17 But the Lord stood near me and infused power into me, so that through me the preaching might be fully accomplished and all the nations might hear it; . . .

(Colossians 1:23) . . .of that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven. . . .

The view that Jesus words had a fulfillment in the first century does not in any way discount a larger fulfillment.

[JW Insider]

 

On 8/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, TiagoBelager said:

There were "several people" at Bethel and elsewhere who were aligned with Ray Franz, but when they were exposed . . . well, you know or should know their history.

While I was at Bethel, I never spoke with Ray Franz. He kept a very low profile, and stayed very active with his congregation after work. I did know some of his close friends, and I was good friends with several of the people who had worked closely with him on their assignments for the previous decade or more. Only two of those good friends (that I knew) were sent home from Bethel, and dismissed from the Writing Department, due to their friendship with Ray Franz. It was known that both of these brothers no longer held 1914 to be true, but this had been known for nearly 10 years, and it didn't stop them from receiving assignments to write Watchtower study articles, or books for the assembly releases. They were sent back to their congregations as elders with a special pioneer stipend. At least one of them continued to receive Writing and Research assignments from both Swingle and Barry over the next 10 years, or so, too. Several of the other brothers who could no longer conscientiously believe in 1914 remained in their positions in the Writing Department, Service Department, and even on the Governing Body. According to Ray Franz, he came to understand the problems of 1914 while researching the Chronology article for the book Aid to Bible Understanding. That was researched in the late 1960's, and was released in 1969. He was not disfellowshipped over this matter. Neither were the researchers who worked with him. I was working for Brother Schroeder from late 1977 to 1982, who also had his own ideas about 1914 that could not be published.

The point is that no one was "aligned" with Ray Franz as far as I knew. Many brothers were "exposed" in the late 1960's for their beliefs about 1914, and this was not considered a reason to dismiss them, nor stop them from contributing as Jehovah's Witnesses. Even more persons admitted their doubts about 1914 when asked to respond to Carl Jonsson's manuscript. Even John Albu, another friend of mine who shared his books with me, and who was considered the primary person to try to respond to the COJ manuscript, had his own personal views about 1914 and Matthew 24.

It actually sounds funny to me, when I see it happen so commonly here that someone tries to align an argument with Ray Franz as a means of dismissing it. It sounds a bit like saying that the Devil believes in God, therefore we should not believe in God.

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I would not want you at my side in field service...Your last post shows me that you are a preterist.

The upside is that his Adam to Armageddon sermon is shorter.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

OK ... what is "between the lines"?

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Jehovah's Witness Protection Program .mp3