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Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.


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@JW Insider Thank you for this fantastic comment above. Very constructive and very informative. 

I like this bit :-

The issues that come into play are about how many non-Christians were expected to be saved through Armageddon. Russell had given his opinion that only a very few would be "slaughtered" and that the vast majority of mankind living would accept the government that came to the fore after Armageddon (and Rutherford had not yet adjusted this view). In fact, as late as 1928, Rutherford could claim that he had not changed "a jot or tittle" from Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures."

Russell must have thought that Armageddon would not be as destructive as some magazines had shown, and that the ones slaughterd would have been on an individual basis, to allow the majority to survive. I am actually of that opinion myself. I like the scripture where Jesus says 

    Hello guest!

And Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid it; for whoever is not against us is for us." (Luke 9 : 50)

To me this has a deeper meaning.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Under Knorr/Franz, the expectation changed from what appears to be at least 5% to 10% surviving, down to about 0.1% surviving. (99.9% of the world population to be slaughtered, as FWF put it.)

I think this is a very sad change of thought, and I don't believe it to be true.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That number apparently came from the fact that the number of Witnesses compared to the rest of the population was also about 0.1%. Today, if you include all Memorial attendees, the number begins to approach 0.3%. So maybe only 99.7%?

I think this also is sad. And once again i do not believe it to be true to what will actually happen.

We know that 'the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one', but it doesn't mean that all people  in that 'world' are deliberately wicked. 

From a Christian loving viewpoint it seems that Russell, and even Rutherford at first, had a very merciful and loving heart. But as the JW Org has 'progessed' it seems to have become a very hardened heart throughout. 

Would you be kind enough to tell me the 'official standpoint' / teaching / doctrine of the Watchtower/GB/Org, as to who will survive Armageddon and what Armageddon will consit of.  Or where would i find the answer ? 

Thank you once again for your time and patience on this topic. 

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Good question. As you know, page 20 of the Kingdom Rules book shows an illustration of the Bible Students preaching, with the caption "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ’s invisible presence" And then page 50, par 5 it says "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy.  However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that

The historical context is interesting because it confirms today’s perception of the past historical context. And that is: They expected Armageddon and the establishment of an earthly Paradise during their lifetime.  After the failure of hope, they started a dogma with heavenly life for the chosen earthlings (variations on this theme exist in JW literature) Today’s WTJWorg context has refuted all of this as outdated and misconceptions. JW Hope has new models of belief and beliefs, today.

JFR was probably not even including those who were already Bible Students (proto-JWs) to be numbered in those millions. ALL of the Bible Students were included in the 144,000 going to heaven, but in those days the persons we now identify as "the great crowd of other sheep" were also anointed and going to heaven. In fact, all Christians were going to heaven according Bible Student teaching of that time. This meant all Christians who were not Bible Students were anointed and also going to heaven.

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Patiently is confused about Rando (who is not NoisySrecko/BillyTheKid) . . .

And BroRando is confused about Patiently who is not "Witness" or "Pearl."

To be honest, from my viewpoint, this is all tongue in cheek. It helps me to laugh at some of the accusations that are flung at me by certain ones...... I do however find that I am 'condemned to death' by those I've mentioned. It seems to be a patern. 

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3 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Would you be kind enough to tell me the 'official standpoint' / teaching / doctrine of the Watchtower/GB/Org, as to who will survive Armageddon and what Armageddon will consit of.  Or where would i find the answer ? 

Sure. The official standpoint is found on jw.org under these headings, below. No one repeats the idea of 99.9% anymore. There is no new number to replace it, except for several [welcome] admissions that we just don't know, and it's not up to us, since we are not the judge:

    Hello guest!

Did Jesus say there are many roads leading to salvation?

    Hello guest!

The Bible explains who have the opportunity for salvation.

    Hello guest!

Learn how tolerance identifies true Christians.

Each of those short articles points to several longer articles that go into the topics a bit further.

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This comment is totally off topic but it sort of made me laugh when I read it. It does not stumble me in any way because I know the dead do not have a 'soul' that floats off anywhere, but :-

    Hello guest!

This is not referring to disembodied souls of those who have died. The dead are totally unconscious and do not have a soul that survives death.

 

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls
    Hello guest!
 of those executed
    Hello guest!
 for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.
    Hello guest!
 And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ
    Hello guest!
 for 1,000 years.
 
 
I know it's not a contradiction but it made me smile. 
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  On 10/9/2021 at 7:34 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In 1920, WTJWorg wrote and spoke nonsense. Why would anyone today have to believe they don’t do that anymore?

Those who are spiritually dying the second death don't believe then and like minded ones today still don't believe. Disfellowshiping a diseased one is a loving thing to do to keep the healthy and faithful free from disease spreading to the congregation.  However one should note, a person who is dying the second death is never redeemed, rather they have been 

    Hello guest!
 

Just like in Jesus days on the earth when he stated to Believers, "Everyone who is Living and exercises faith in me Will Never Die At All." (

    Hello guest!
)

Today, there are many dying the second death as King Abaddon orders his angels to bundle up those who are stumbling others.  And that is a very good thing. 😁  Soon the Great Crowd will emerge... Forward March!

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

    Hello guest!

 

quote from link:

 The dead are totally unconscious and do not have a soul that survives death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14, 23, 24) Jesus will bring those asleep in death back to life again on earth.

qoute from another link 

    Hello guest!
  

Such religious teachings all share one basic idea—that some part of us survives the death of the physical body. According to almost every religion, past and present, we somehow live on forever with the ability to see, hear, and think. Yet, how can that be? Our senses, along with our thoughts, are all linked to the workings of our brain. At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain.

Jesus Christ spoke about the condition of the dead. He did so with regard to Lazarus, a man whom he knew well and who had died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (Read John 11:11-14.) Notice that Jesus compared death to sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. Lazarus was not being reborn as another human. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep in death.”—1 Corinthians 15:6.

Again, how do those who have died live?.... because imaginary Lazarus exercise faith in God and his promises given to Abraham about Jesus, but still died, after all. Stephen and many Christians in 1st century exercise faith in Jesus but they all "fallen asleep in death", as article state.  

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    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!
/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">

@JW Insider   Images like this do not seem to make much sense to me. 

    Hello guest!

Quote

Judgment Day will be a period of a thousand years during which humans will have the opportunity to regain what Adam and Eve lost. 

If JUDGEMENT DAY is 1,000 years long, and the judge is Jesus Christ, then what exactly is happening here ?

This image happening would have to mean that ALL those people have ALREADY BEEN JUDGED. 

I'm getting the feeling that Armageddon and Judgement Day are two seperate things. 

This picture looks like Armageddon. But I would have thought that Armageddon was only the destruction of the 'wicked' people. Hence the 'wicked' would already have been judged prior to the Judgement Day. 

This image looks to be killing indiscriminatly. So when would this take place ?  Would this be at the end of the 1,000 years, the destruction of all those that would not serve God through Christ ? 

It seriously does not make sense to me. 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:
  On 10/9/2021 at 7:34 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

In 1920, WTJWorg wrote and spoke nonsense. Why would anyone today have to believe they don’t do that anymore?

Those who are spiritually dying the second death don't believe then and like minded ones today still don't believe. Disfellowshiping a diseased one is a loving thing to do to keep the healthy and faithful free from disease spreading to the congregation.  However one should note, a person who is dying the second death is never redeemed, rather they have been 

    Hello guest!
 

Just like in Jesus days on the earth when he stated to Believers, "Everyone who is Living and exercises faith in me Will Never Die At All." (

    Hello guest!
)

Today, there are many dying the second death as King Abaddon orders his angels to bundle up those who are stumbling others.  And that is a very good thing. 😁  Soon the Great Crowd will emerge... Forward March!

quote from link:

 The dead are totally unconscious and do not have a soul that survives death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14, 23, 24) Jesus will bring those asleep in death back to life again on earth.

qoute from another link 

    Hello guest!
  

Such religious teachings all share one basic idea—that some part of us survives the death of the physical body. According to almost every religion, past and present, we somehow live on forever with the ability to see, hear, and think. Yet, how can that be? Our senses, along with our thoughts, are all linked to the workings of our brain. At death, the brain stops working. Our memories, feelings, and senses do not continue to function independently in some mysterious way. They do not survive the destruction of our brain.

Jesus Christ spoke about the condition of the dead. He did so with regard to Lazarus, a man whom he knew well and who had died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (Read John 11:11-14.) Notice that Jesus compared death to sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. Lazarus was not being reborn as another human. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep in death.”—1 Corinthians 15:6.

Again, how do those who have died live?.... because imaginary Lazarus exercise faith in God and his promises given to Abraham about Jesus, but still died, after all. Stephen and many Christians in 1st century exercise faith in Jesus but they all "fallen asleep in death", as article state.  

"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (

    Hello guest!
)

The "wicked" are never resurrected, therefore, they die a permanent death.  Starting with Adam and Eve...

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:
    Hello guest!

The Bible explains who have the opportunity for salvation.

It would appear the question of salvation has not been properly answered by JW’s here. There is a major difference between salvation and believing on your own religion. Is your religion preaching the true gospel?

 

*** w08 11/1 p. 28 Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved? ***

Our Readers Ask

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved?

 

*** w82 11/15 p. 20 Who Are God’s Ministers Today? ***

God’s Ministers Today

 

*** w71 6/1 p. 330 Are You Waiting for “The Call”? ***

AN OPEN DOOR TO SERVICE

 

*** w66 5/15 p. 299 Save Both Yourself and Those Who Listen to You ***

Save Both Yourself and Those Who Listen to You

 

*** w59 9/1 p. 525 Walking in the Name of Jehovah ***

Walking in the Name of Jehovah

 

*** w13 5/1 p. 2 Table of Contents ***

READ MORE ONLINE | www.jw.org

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES—Do You Feel That You Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?

 

    Hello guest!

The ones seeking God through Christ have that hope. Would it matter if that person is alive or dead?

Scenarios:

1.  An unrepentant pedophile that dies in a car crash?

2. A repentant pedophile that dies in a car crash but hasn't heard about the gospel?

3. A repentant pedophile is killed by a vigilante? Who?

4. A repentant pedophile is killed by a vigilante who got the information from the internet? Who?

5. An unrepentant person that dies of natural cause?

6. A Christian that preaches the gospel but mislead people with the teachings?

7. An unrepentant Christian that now promotes anarchy?

8. A person who has never heard about God? Etc...

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I am an old dog, and a bit far sighted, for a two dimensional cartoon dog, so my entertainment is somewhat limited to 2D choices, and I have to chase pictures of rabbits, when I do chase rabbits, so the cartoon strip DOGBERT appeals to me, as it shows how frail the reasoning abilities of humans are, especially in the determination of facts.

    Hello guest!

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    • misette  »  Gilles h

      Bonsoir Gilles
      S'il te plait, aurais-tu le samedi après-midi de l'assemblée régionale 2021
      Je te remercie
       
      · 2 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      Soyons reconnaissant devant toutes ses oeuvres
       
      Le Dieu des dieux, Jéhovah, parle ;
      il convoque la terre
      depuis le soleil levant jusqu’au soleil couchant.
      De Sion, la perfection de la beauté, Dieu rayonne.
      Notre Dieu viendra et ne pourra pas garder le silence.
      Il y a un feu dévorant devant lui,
      et une violente tempête fait rage autour de lui.
      Il convoque les cieux et la terre
      pour juger son peuple :
       « Rassemblez auprès de moi mes fidèles,
      ceux qui concluent une alliance avec moi par un sacrifice. »
      Les cieux proclament sa justice,
      car Dieu lui-même est Juge. (Sèla.)
       « Écoute, ô mon peuple, je vais parler ;
      ô Israël, je vais témoigner contre toi.
      Je suis Dieu, ton Dieu.
      Ce n’est pas pour tes sacrifices que je te réprimande,
      ni pour tes holocaustes, qui sont constamment devant moi.
      Je n’ai pas besoin de prendre un taureau de ta maison
      ni des boucs de tes enclos.
      Car tous les animaux sauvages de la forêt m’appartiennent,
      même les bêtes sur mille montagnes.
      Je connais tous les oiseaux des montagnes;
      les innombrables animaux des champs sont à moi.
      Si j’avais faim, je ne te le dirais pas,
      car le sol productif m’appartient, avec tout ce qui s’y trouve.
      Vais-je manger la viande des taureaux
      et boire le sang des boucs?
      Offre en sacrifice à Dieu ta reconnaissance
      et acquitte-toi des vœux que tu as faits au Très-Haut;
      appelle-moi en temps de détresse.
      Je te secourrai, et tu me glorifieras. »
      Mais Dieu dira au méchant :
      « De quel droit récites-tu mes prescriptions
      ou parles-tu de mon alliance?
      Car tu détestes la discipline,
      et sans cesse tu tournes le dos à mes paroles.
      Quand tu vois un voleur, tu l’approuves,
      et tu fréquentes les personnes adultères.
      Avec ta bouche, tu répands le mal,
      et tu attaches la tromperie à ta langue.
      Tu t’assieds et tu parles contre ton frère;
      tu révèles les défauts du fils de ta propre mère.
      Quand tu faisais ces choses, je gardais le silence,
      alors tu t’es dit que j’étais comme toi.
      Mais, à présent, je vais te réprimander
      et exposer ce que j’ai contre toi.
      Réfléchissez à ceci, s’il vous plaît, vous qui oubliez Dieu,
      sinon je vous déchirerai et il n’y aura personne pour vous secourir.
      Celui qui offre en sacrifice sa reconnaissance me glorifie ;
      et à celui qui est déterminé à bien agir
      je ferai voir le salut de Dieu. »

      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      Dieu aime les prières et la sincérité de ses serviteurs humbles
       
      Dieu aime la bonté de coeur envers autrui et non aux sacrifices et holocaustes d'animaux sauvages et domistiques.
      Dans ton amour fidèle, accorde-moi ta faveur, ô Dieu.
      Dans ta grande miséricorde, efface mes transgressions.
      Lave-moi complètement de ma faute
      et purifie-moi de mon péché.
      Car je suis bien conscient de mes transgressions,
      et mon péché est constamment devant moi.
      C’est contre toi que j'ai failli, oui j'ai fait le mal
      devant tes yeux.
      Ainsi, tu es juste quand tu parles,
      tu es droit quand tu juges.
      Vois ! Je suis né coupable
      et, depuis l’instant où ma mère m’a conçu, je suis pécheur.
      Vois ! Tu prends plaisir à la vérité dans le fond du cœur;
      enseigne-moi la vraie sagesse, au plus profond de moi.
      Purifie-moi de mon péché avec l’hysope, pour que je sois pur;
      lave-moi, pour que je sois plus blanc que la neige.
      Fais-moi entendre le son de l’allégresse et de la joie,
      pour que les os que tu as broyés se réjouissent.
      Détourne ton visage de mes péchés
      et efface toutes mes fautes.
      Crée en moi un cœur pur, ô Dieu,
      et mets en moi un esprit nouveau, ferme.
      Ne me chasse pas de ta présence ;
      ne m’enlève pas ton esprit saint.
      Redonne-moi la joie d’être sauvé par toi;
      éveille en moi la volonté de t’obéir.
      Je veux enseigner tes chemins aux transgresseurs,
      pour que les pécheurs reviennent à toi.
      Libère-moi de la culpabilité de meurtre, ô Dieu, mon Dieu sauveur,
      pour que ma langue puisse proclamer joyeusement ta justice.
      Ô Jéhovah, ouvre mes lèvres
      pour que ma bouche proclame ta louange.
      Car tu ne veux pas de sacrifices — autrement, j’en donnerais ;
      tu ne prends pas plaisir aux holocaustes.
      Le sacrifice qui plaît à Dieu, c’est un esprit brisé ;
      un cœur brisé et broyé, ô Dieu, tu ne le rejetteras pas.
      Dans ta bienveillance, agis pour le bien de Sion ;
      bâtis les murailles de Jérusalem.
      Alors tu prendras plaisir aux sacrifices de justice,
      aux holocaustes et aux offrandes totales ;
      alors on offrira des taureaux sur ton autel.


      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      Dieu aime les prières et la sincérité de ses serviteurs humbles
       
      Dieu aime la bonté de coeur envers autrui et non aux sacrifices et holocaustes d'animaux sauvages et domistiques.
      Dans ton amour fidèle, accorde-moi ta faveur, ô Dieu.
      Dans ta grande miséricorde, efface mes transgressions.
      Lave-moi complètement de ma faute
      et purifie-moi de mon péché.
      Car je suis bien conscient de mes transgressions,
      et mon péché est constamment devant moi.
      C’est contre toi que j'ai failli, oui j'ai fait le mal
      devant tes yeux.
      Ainsi, tu es juste quand tu parles,
      tu es droit quand tu juges.
      Vois ! Je suis né coupable
      et, depuis l’instant où ma mère m’a conçu, je suis pécheur.
      Vois ! Tu prends plaisir à la vérité dans le fond du cœur;
      enseigne-moi la vraie sagesse, au plus profond de moi.
      Purifie-moi de mon péché avec l’hysope, pour que je sois pur;
      lave-moi, pour que je sois plus blanc que la neige.
      Fais-moi entendre le son de l’allégresse et de la joie,
      pour que les os que tu as broyés se réjouiss.
      Détourne ton visage de mes péchés
      et efface toutes mes fautes.
      Crée en moi un cœur pur, ô Dieu,
      et mets en moi un esprit nouveau, ferme.
      Ne me chasse pas de ta présence ;
      ne m’enlève pas ton esprit saint.
      Redonne-moi la joie d’être sauvé par toi;
      éveille en moi la volonté de t’obéir.
      Je veux enseigner tes chemins aux transgresseurs,
      pour que les pécheurs reviennent à toi.
      Libère-moi de la culpabilité de meurtre, ô Dieu, mon Dieu sauveur,
      pour que ma langue puisse proclamer joyeusement ta justice.
      Ô Jéhovah, ouvre mes lèvres
      pour que ma bouche proclame ta louange.
      Car tu ne veux pas de sacrifices — autrement, j’en donnerais ;
      tu ne prends pas plaisir aux holocaustes.
      Le sacrifice qui plaît à Dieu, c’est un esprit brisé ;
      un cœur brisé et broyé, ô Dieu, tu ne le rejetteras pas.
      Dans ta bienveillance, agis pour le bien de Sion ;
      bâtis les murailles de Jérusalem.
      Alors tu prendras plaisir aux sacrifices de justice,
      aux holocaustes et aux offrandes totales ;
      alors on offrira des taureaux sur ton autel.


    • Shirley Lowery

      Hello to all my Spiritual Brothers and Sisters! I haven't been on here in a while, because as of August 17, 2021, I moved to Commerce, Texas! I was on the Commerce Housing Authority Waiting list since 2019!  I was selected to receive my one bedroom apartment, with my Chihuahua, with my precious Babyboy, who is now 16 years old! and I signed my lease on August 5, 2021, and had my gas turned on! We have a very small Congregation of 71 publishers, including me!  I haven't been to our beautiful Kingdomhall yet, but I did take some photos of the outside of it! I'm praying that we are one of the Congregations, chosen to start attending in person, our pilot meetings that many countries are now attending! Puerto Rico, Chile, and Australia are a few chosen right now! There's three Shirley's in my Congregation!  Two elderly sisters, one is white, she's No.1 , and another  elderly sister who is black, she's No.2, and I'm ShirleyL3!  One sister lovingly named me that! I feel special now! I haven't been given an assignment yet, but soon I will!  I really enjoyed our "POWERFUL by FAITH" Regional Convention so much!  We needed all the Spiritual Encouragement which focused on all of us! Also, all those beautiful videos, and the real life experiences! July 29, 1972, was my baptism date! 49 years now, serving Jehovah! I was 15 when I dedicated my life to serve Jehovah! I'm 64 years young now, and still faithfully serving Jehovah! I do telephone witnessing now! Which lots of people hang up on me, but I'm used to it now! All that matters is that I'm giving Jehovah my best!  I'm so excited about our Special Campaign now!  Only Jehovah reads hearts!  Hopefully lots of people will show some interest!  This year 2021 is almost over! I received both doses of Moderna, and have to wait till I turn 65 in May, to receive my Booster shot! We lost over 17, 000 brothers and sisters to Covid-19! My prayers are with them and their families! Soon, as Jehovah has promised, they will welcome their loved ones back in their lives, during the resurrection! I love it here so much, everyone is very friendly! I just love my Congregation too! I hope everyone makes their personal decision to get vaccinated! Also I hope everyone has a great rest of 2021! Let's see what Jehovah has in store for us in 2022! Were having our Circuit Assembly on November 27, 2021!  Take care of yourselves, be safe, and always trust in Jehovah!!!  Have a great weekend everybody, agape love, Sister Shirley Ann Lowery! 
      · 1 reply
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