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Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.


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9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The IBSA was an Association, whereas the JW's is an Organisation.

I can understand how misconception can be attributed to how the Bible Students operated. The word "association" is a superficial word for the sake of legal standing, nothing more.

[R4593 : page 119]

INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENT’S ASSOCIATION

FOR many years the dear friends who regularly meet all over the world for the study of God's Word, using WATCH TOWER publications as helping hands, have been perplexed to know how to advertise themselves. We have continually warned against everything simulating sectarianism and Churchianity. But we have been at a loss to know what to suggest to the friends along this line. It is true that wherever two or three are met in the Lord's name, they would be entitled, if they chose, to speak of themselves as a Church. But if the name Church be used our friends and neighbors inquire, What Church, What denomination? And we find it impossible to explain to them in a reasonable time that we do not mean a sect or party separate from other Christians. Indeed, there is danger of our losing sight of the fact that we are non-sectarian—that we acknowledge all as brethren and members of our Church, Christ's Church, the Church of God, who give evidence of full consecration to self-sacrifice, following in the footsteps of the Redeemer. There is a disposition on the part of [R4593 : page 120] some, unconsciously, to fellowship only such Christians as are outside of all denominations. Our true position, nevertheless, is that we recognize all loyal to our Redeemer, whether babes or fully-grown, whether in Babylon or out of her, whether they follow with us or indirectly speak evil of us.

Now in the Lord's providence we have thought of a title suitable, we believe, to the Lord's people everywhere, and free from objection, we believe, on every score—the title at the head of this article. It fairly represents our sentiments and endeavors. We are Bible Students. We welcome all of God's people to join with us in the study. We believe that the result of such studies is blessed and unifying. We recommend therefore that the little classes everywhere and the larger ones adopt this unobjectionable style and that they use it in the advertising columns of their newspapers. Thus friends everywhere will know how to recognize them when visiting strange cities.

Under New York State law, it would be run under the People's Pulpit Association. Other denominations in that era spoke of themselves as Bible Students, even though Pastor Russell claimed to be a congregationalist.

Some might ask why? For what Jesus spoke of as unity, and the prophets as oneness.

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Good question. As you know, page 20 of the Kingdom Rules book shows an illustration of the Bible Students preaching, with the caption "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ’s invisible presence" And then page 50, par 5 it says "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy.  However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that

The historical context is interesting because it confirms today’s perception of the past historical context. And that is: They expected Armageddon and the establishment of an earthly Paradise during their lifetime.  After the failure of hope, they started a dogma with heavenly life for the chosen earthlings (variations on this theme exist in JW literature) Today’s WTJWorg context has refuted all of this as outdated and misconceptions. JW Hope has new models of belief and beliefs, today.

JFR was probably not even including those who were already Bible Students (proto-JWs) to be numbered in those millions. ALL of the Bible Students were included in the 144,000 going to heaven, but in those days the persons we now identify as "the great crowd of other sheep" were also anointed and going to heaven. In fact, all Christians were going to heaven according Bible Student teaching of that time. This meant all Christians who were not Bible Students were anointed and also going to heaven.

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On 10/7/2021 at 4:03 PM, JW Insider said:

I think most of the brothers (and even several of the sisters) don't know what he was predicting, and I've found this to be a little bit funny, since we give so much attention to our past history in our publications. The 100 years ago today article in the WT recently highlighted the "Harp" book (1921), which gives the answer perfectly. I'd like to hear a few guesses by you or others before giving more details that were documented at the time. I know I understood this wrong for several years and I was surprised at the answer.

So what is the answer? I just browsed very quickly through the thread, I may have missed it...

I was always under the impression that he was predicting exactly what he said, that millions living at the time he wrote those words, would never die. You already mentioned that he believed 1925 would be the year when mankind would be blessed and vengeance brought upon the wicked (and the ancient worthies would be resurrected and live in San Diego). 

I guess I will go and look at the 100 years ago article and see what I come up with....

Ok, I read the article

 

    Hello guest!

but I can't figure out what you are hinting at...🤔

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18 hours ago, Anna said:

I was always under the impression that he was predicting exactly what he said, that millions living at the time he wrote those words, would never die. You already mentioned that he believed 1925 would be the year when mankind would be blessed and vengeance brought upon the wicked (and the ancient worthies would be resurrected and live in San Diego). 

It's nice to read your words here. But how did you relate that to the point that the IBSA under Rutherford didn't consist of 'millions' of people ?

I would have thought that he meant it literally too, as he was offering this 'information' to the public, and the public would not be thinking in a spiritual way. 

18 hours ago, Anna said:

I just browsed very quickly through the thread, I may have missed it...

You haven't missed it but unfortunately I think @JW Insider is reluctant to answer my questions directly.  Unless JWI enjoys the power :) of knowing things we don't know.  

An original copy of The Harp is available on ebay UK for less than 20 GBP. I'm tempted to buy it

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1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

An original copy of The Harp is available on ebay UK for less than 20 GBP. I'm tempted to buy it

There are at least 20 places I found online where you can get "The Harp" (1921) for free.

    Hello guest!

You can also get the booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" (1920) for free

    Hello guest!
and a few other places.

    Hello guest!
/monthly_2021_10/image.png.c5a3e8c23ff4c08882cb87de789b8991.png" src="https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">

 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

I was always under the impression that he was predicting exactly what he said, that millions living at the time he wrote those words, would never die. You already mentioned that he believed 1925 would be the year when mankind would be blessed and vengeance brought upon the wicked (and the ancient worthies would be resurrected and live in San Diego).

I think that you are right, and that even and "Srecko" and "Patiently" already have a good idea, too. When I said that most of the brothers and sisters don't really know what JFR meant, I was referring to those don't have much interest and those who don't go to the trouble to look up things for themselves.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Unless JWI enjoys the power :) of knowing things we don't know.  

I really didn't think this was anything you didn't know already. Besides, the question has already been discussed previously on the forum. I didn't mean to come across like I was "teasing" or "irritated" but you gave me the impression that you had some information that you already knew must have been true, but you wanted a Witness to admit to it, so that you could use it to somehow prove that JWs are false prophets, or at least blame the GB. You've done this many times already. It just seemed silly that you would go to a time 100 years ago to somehow prove what we are now.

Also, I was truly interested in what other Witnesses thought, and I was glad that a few others weighed in. I didn't expect you to be so impatient, Patiently.

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

I was always under the impression that he was predicting exactly what he said, that millions living at the time he wrote those words, would never die. You already mentioned that he believed 1925 would be the year when mankind would be blessed and vengeance brought upon the wicked (and the ancient worthies would be resurrected and live in San Diego). 

As Arauna has said many times, you can't just easily answer a question about past beliefs without the context of the times. Most Witnesses, I think, tend to read a lot of our current beliefs into Rutherford's words. Even the idea that "vengeance would be brought upon the wicked" in 1925 seems to impose our current view of Armageddon onto the view held in the early 1920's. It's similar but with important differences.

But you are right that he was predicting that millions of people in 1919, 1920, etc. would never die, but would continue to survive. The advertising campaign in newspapers was a bit funny, because it seemed to make use of a formula that was based on a certain percentage of the population of a city, and predict that thousands, or tens of thousands would never die in that particular city.  

The reference to the recent "100 Years Ago" article about the "Harp" book was just a point about how we keep referring back to the time period. Yes, there are a few hints in the images of the questions, but I was referring to the entire purpose of the book: to prepare people for the "miracle" of everlasting life that was already in effect for millions of persons. Those were persons NOT currently associated with the Bible Students, but who would cooperate with the new government, already legally established.

My two copies, like many online images of the book, include the phrase about the "Millions" embossed onto the cover:

 

    Hello guest!

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13 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

st of the brothers and sisters don't really know what JFR meant, I was referring to those don't have much interest and those who don't go

I am reading one of the older publications at present...... but I see what I can " learn from it in the light of 2021 vision"  sometimes it provides a pleasant surprise ....or just what I expected.... not full understanding at the time... BUT.. I do not critisized it with 2021 hindsight. It is the "motive " one has when one looks back.

I do not indulge these people who seem to have ulterior motives... who look to the past and critisize it and do it with a pretense of not understanding......... I recall that that Satan pretended not to know when he said :  is it so...... you are not to eat from .... 

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I recall that that Satan pretended not to know when he said :  is it so...... you are not to eat from .... 

There is a lie right within the question, a recent speaker pointed out, and it is a purposeful lie:

“Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 

to implant the idea of, “Wow, he won’t let you guys do anything!”

The modern day equivalent would be to carry on about how the guard rails of the highway are more like a strait jacket.

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Thank you @JW Insider for this link and the other one.

    Hello guest!

Page 94 

HOW TO LIVE FOREVER

The church systems would have the people believe that only those who become church members can be saved.

The Bible never taught any such doctrine.

The Lord never organized the nominal systems, and the true church is but a little flock, who shall inherit the kingdom of heaven, and the others of the world do not inherit it. To the church Jesus said: 'Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom'. (Luke 12 : 32) Jesus died not only for those who will constitute the members of the church, but for all. St. John plainly stated: 'He is the propitiation [satisfaction] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole worldv.-1 John 2: 2. 

I think this proves one point that i was making.   

And here we seem to have an answer 

Page 97

Then it shall come to pass that every one who will keep the saying of the Lord shall never see death. This promise would not have been made by Jesus if he did not intend to carry it into full force and effect in due time. Again he said: 'Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die". (John 11 : 26) Do we believe the Master's statement? If so, when the time comes for the world to know, then they who believe and, of course, render themselves in obedience to the terms have the absolute and positive statement of Jesus that they shall never die.

 Based upon the argument heretofore set forth, then, that the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away, and that the new order is coming in, and that 1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old and the beginning of reconstruction, it is reasonable to conclude that millions of people now on the earth will be still on the earth in 1925. Then, based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die. 

 

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    • Eric Ouellet

      Dieu aime les prières et la sincérité de ses serviteurs humbles
       
      Dieu aime la bonté de coeur envers autrui et non aux sacrifices et holocaustes d'animaux sauvages et domistiques.
      Dans ton amour fidèle, accorde-moi ta faveur, ô Dieu.
      Dans ta grande miséricorde, efface mes transgressions.
      Lave-moi complètement de ma faute
      et purifie-moi de mon péché.
      Car je suis bien conscient de mes transgressions,
      et mon péché est constamment devant moi.
      C’est contre toi que j'ai failli, oui j'ai fait le mal
      devant tes yeux.
      Ainsi, tu es juste quand tu parles,
      tu es droit quand tu juges.
      Vois ! Je suis né coupable
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      Vois ! Tu prends plaisir à la vérité dans le fond du cœur;
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      Purifie-moi de mon péché avec l’hysope, pour que je sois pur;
      lave-moi, pour que je sois plus blanc que la neige.
      Fais-moi entendre le son de l’allégresse et de la joie,
      pour que les os que tu as broyés se réjouiss.
      Détourne ton visage de mes péchés
      et efface toutes mes fautes.
      Crée en moi un cœur pur, ô Dieu,
      et mets en moi un esprit nouveau, ferme.
      Ne me chasse pas de ta présence ;
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      Libère-moi de la culpabilité de meurtre, ô Dieu, mon Dieu sauveur,
      pour que ma langue puisse proclamer joyeusement ta justice.
      Ô Jéhovah, ouvre mes lèvres
      pour que ma bouche proclame ta louange.
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      tu ne prends pas plaisir aux holocaustes.
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