Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?

[John 12.24to28]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I have addressed most of the points you bring up in far greater detail than in all the other commentators put together. This is in the several chapters I have called to your attention of ‘Don’t Know Why’ that deal with brainwashing, discipline, and Governing Body. All of it is original writing. None of it is boilerplate off the Watchtower. In the event you do not finish them all, it can only be through lack of love on your part. I even have a ‘Contact Me’ section at the end of the book, and no, the WNMF is not one of the places listed.

 

I skipped ahead to those chapters you mentioned, @TrueTomHarley, about "Brainwashing", "Discipline", and "Governing Body".

 

(I won't say anything more about "brainwashing" and "discipline" because I already did share my own personal experience on this thread regarding the organization and the type of "brainwashing" and "discipline" I came in contact with. You can judge for yourself if it's cult-like or not.)

 

I will comment on this selection from your book on the Governing Body...

 

(Excerpt From I Don't Know Why We Persecute Jehovah's Witnesses: Searching for the Why, Tom Harley

https://books.apple.com/us/book/i-dont-know-why-we-persecute-jehovahs-witnesses-searching/id1560211086

This material may be protected by copyright.)

 

“Governing Body

 

"The first institution of higher learning in the Western World, the Academy of Athens, was founded by Plato in 387 B.C E. Much of what is bedrock to Western civilization traces back to him. Plato recorded his concept of ideal government in which he advocated rule by “philosopher-kings.” He favored monarchy, but not hereditary monarchy. Instead, his rulers were to be selected, by already-existing rulers, on the basis of merit. This would follow a lengthy period of education designed to separate the wheat from the chaff, so lengthy as to preclude anyone under age fifty or so from consideration. Consider an excerpt from The 100, a book by Michael Hart, which undertakes to rate the one hundred most influential persons throughout history (Plato is #40): 

 

“Only those persons who show that they can apply their book learning to the real world should be admitted into the guardian class. Moreover, only those persons who clearly demonstrate that they are primarily interested in the public welfare are to become guardians. Membership in the guardian class would not appeal to all persons. The guardians are not to be wealthy. They should be permitted only a minimal amount of personal property, and no land or private homes. They are to receive a fixed (and not very large) salary and may not own either gold or silver. Members of the guardian class should not be permitted to have separate families, but are to eat together and are to have mates in common. The compensation of these philosopher-kings should not be material wealth, but rather the satisfaction of public service.”

 

"Anyone familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses will recognize at once that these words almost exactly describe their Governing Body. Only the “mates in common” does not apply. It is too ironic—the group that, without fuss, and no doubt unknowingly, actually applies the words of the philosopher Plato is a relatively uneducated group beneath the notice of today’s thinkers—Jehovah’s Witnesses. Imagine! A standard-bearer of modern intellectuals devises a system of government that they admire but cannot reproduce and then the Governing Body stumbles along and says, “Hey, we’ll try some of that,” and implements it without sweat! One may object that Plato’s recommendation is for the government of nations, whereas Jehovah’s Witnesses are a religion. But the similarities are more striking than the differences. Worldwide, Jehovah’s Witnesses number over eight million, midway on the scale of nations, with about the same population as Switzerland. The Bible speaks of God’s people as “a great nation.” It shouts, “Open up the gates that a righteous nation may enter, one that keeps faith.” It warns religious opponents that, “the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people (translations vary about 50/50, some opting for people, others nation) that will produce its fruit.” 

 

"Scripturally, Jehovah’s Witnesses are a nation as real as any nation on the world’s roster of nations today. They better fulfill the goal of most nations in being more united. Their universal reputation of being a moral, decent, and law-abiding people is no accident, nor is it explained solely by their belief in the Bible as the source of divine instruction. It is also the result of effective administration—governing. Many groups that claim to follow the Bible are populated by members whose lifestyles belie the claim, as Sider points out in the previous chapter. Jehovah’s Witnesses are unified in a common goal and purpose. They practice what they preach. It is all a result of effective governing. They are Plato’s dream come true.”

 

 

 

It's a nice bedtime story, Tom. 

 

"Once upon a time..." "...and they lived happily ever after." 

 

I enjoy your writing style. But it's not the truth you're writing. You're writing an "ideal" or an "imagined reality". 

 

Plato was a Greek philosopher. Jesus came to get rid of the Greek philosophy influence. The very fact that you describe the current Governing Body arrangement in such terms is evidence that they are an apostasy from what is written in the Bible.

 

The first century Christians in Jerusalem were not there to make extra decrees. They were not there to judge as a judiciary or an act in an executive manner or to make legislation. That was what the elders did in ancient Israel back when they had their own government. Jesus told the Christians to be subject to the governments of the nations, not to make up a new government. The Jewish disciples thought that Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom at that time, but Jesus told them that was not the way.

 

The older brothers in the congregation in Jerusalem were to act like older brothers in a family arrangement. The only record we have of them sending a "decree" was when the other family members couldn't figure it out with the circumcision issue. That's the only time. And it was as a congregation they met, not as some board of directors for all of Christianity. The older brothers of the congregation in Jerusalem were the ones involved. It wasn't because they were the board of directors or some separate entity. They were the elders in that congregation, where it all started. The rest of the time, the letters to the congregations came from individual Christians like Paul or John who were not hanging around in Jerusalem doing so-called "Governing Body stuff".  

 

The purpose of them having that meeting about the circumcision issue was to help the family stick to Jehovah's Word. By means of His holy spirit, Jehovah helped them to see that Jesus had fulfilled the Law, so there was no need to continue parts of it. Since Noah had been under restriction from the blood and that took place prior to the Mosaic Law and since immorality had always been frowned upon, holy spirit made it clear through the scriptures that Jehovah had not changed. The apostles and other older men in Jerusalem were not making up "New Light" or new decrees. They already had that information in God's Word. They just repeated it, reiterating it for those in the other congregations who had been confused.

 

Today, the Governing Body sets itself up like a government rather than older brothers in a family. Today, the Governing Body makes up new decrees, in opposition to the example set in the first century. Today, the Governing Body acts like the Sanhedrin, an unscriptural appendage that makes commentaries on commentaries and then holds them up as equal to or higher in authority than the Word of God. 

 

The Kingdom did not start ruling in 1914. There is no godly authority backing the Governing Body to rule the way they do at present. They are not representing the Kingdom, because the Kingdom isn't even in place yet. They are making stuff up and ruling as kings now, something that Paul said was very bad. When Jesus was tempted to hold power over the kingdoms of the earth, he rejected that offer. Who do you think would be the one right now offering control over a kingdom that spans the whole earth?

 

How do you think Jesus will react when he is enthroned in the heavens? Do you really think he's going to reward these Governing Body guys who have been lying? You yourself said it in your book that they have a nation they govern now. How can they say they are "no part of the world" when they have set up a kingdom in the manner of Greek Platonic theory and begun ruling during the time Jesus said we must be "no part of the world" which means not setting up a government now in Satan's system of things? Why do you think there are so many false doctrines? Remember that movie quote "if you want to be a star in Satan's world, what do you think he will require of you?"

 

Lording it over the flock as a king now is a form of apostasy.

 

"You are all brothers."

 

What did it say in Acts 15? Who did they go to for help for the circumcision issue? To a board of directors type GB?

 

"On arriving in Jerusalem, they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the elders..."

 

"Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation..."

 

The current model for FDS/GB is an unscriptural, unholy arrangement that has led to false worship and reproach on Jehovah's holy name.

 

You will see for yourself very soon how Jesus feels about those guys. Your writing style is fun, and I know you believe the things you wrote about because you've been indoctrinated by all the publications of the FDS, but Jesus doesn't approve of the way you are exalting them in that make-believe chapter, Tom. We are not supposed to be "Governing Body Witnesses". We're supposed to be Jehovah's witnesses. Praise Jehovah.

[John 12.24to28]

2 hours ago, seeknontruther101 said:

In reality, this site seems, by all accounts, to be for faithless people (apostates) and the disfellowshiped. You ought to be comfortable. ExJWs care.

 

I know. I'm sorry. I just get upset talking about that stuff, it makes me sick. But I think it needs to be told. Thank you for telling me ExJWs care. 🥲

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

I enjoy your writing style…..Your writing style is fun,

Given that you feel the way you do about the subject matter, I’ll accept this as high praise.

In the upcoming ‘Last of the Last Days: Faith in the Age of Dysfunction,’ my perennial return visit, Bernard Strawman, (who continues to make find progress! though only I can see it) mutters that our guys are more like ‘janitor/plumbers’ than ‘philosopher/kings.’ He takes colossal pride in his education.

[John 12.24to28]

34 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

8 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

I enjoy your writing style…..Your writing style is fun,

Given that you feel the way you do about the subject matter, I’ll accept this as high praise.

 

Please do! I look forward to reading the rest of the book.🙂 It's nothing personal that I don't agree with you on the GB part. I love the brothers in Russia, as I love all the brothers (even the GB ones, whether anybody wants to believe me or not). And I love you too, Tom. Thank you.☺️

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

 

I think you can find audio recordings online of some talks that mention 1975...

 

 

 

Franz uttered some interesting nonsense and it was instructive to listen to the way in which he presented his argumentation, which is the fiction of an inquisitive mind. His mind that has fed millions of similar minds around the world with his confused application of prophecy and plain non-prophetic biblical statements with the historical experience of WTJWorg and his predecessors.

Therefore. September 5th 1975 is the turning point in which or after which, but it is a month, two, three months or a short number of years in which Armageddon will come.
He, together with other like-minded people, subjugated and fueled the anticipation that was to come immediately. He said don't get married, don't look for a good job, don't plan for children, don't plan for education, because that Day is coming quickly.

Clowns are still in charge, sadly.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Franz uttered some interesting nonsense and it was instructive to listen to the way in which he presented his argumentation, which is the fiction of an inquisitive mind. His mind that has fed millions of similar minds around the world with his confused application of prophecy and plain non-prophetic biblical statements with the historical experience of WTJWorg and his predecessors.

Therefore. September 5th 1975 is the turning point in which or after which, but it is a month, two, three months or a short number of years in which Armageddon will come.
He, together with other like-minded people, subjugated and fueled the anticipation that was to come immediately. He said don't get married, don't look for a good job, don't plan for children, don't plan for education, because that Day is coming quickly.

Clowns are still in charge, sadly.

F. Franz puts forward some theses in his speech. Well, he says it's important to know how long it took Adam to name the animals. Then that it is important to know how much time passed from the creation of Adam to the creation of Eve. Because such information is very important in order to be able to understand when the 6000 years of human existence ends and when the last thousand years begin (from the seventh day), the 7th day on which God rests.
He says that Adam only gave names to specimens of a species, not to every animal. This means, he says, that he was able to complete the task quickly. And that the speed of that work depended on how fast God brought him animals. Imagine that.  And how quickly God could do that, he concluded from the record that God brought the animals to Noah, before the Flood, in just one week, because again, he brought only the main representatives of the animals. So, concludes F.F., Adam named the animals in a one week and found that it became difficult for him after that. So God put him to sleep and created Eve.
A really speculative interpretation.

[Srecko Sostar]

Just now, Srecko Sostar said:

F. Franz puts forward some theses in his speech. Well, he says it's important to know how long it took Adam to name the animals. Then that it is important to know how much time passed from the creation of Adam to the creation of Eve. Because such information is very important in order to be able to understand when the 6000 years of human existence ends and when the last thousand years begin (from the seventh day), the 7th day on which God rests.
He says that Adam only gave names to specimens of a species, not to every animal. This means, he says, that he was able to complete the task quickly. And that the speed of that work depended on how fast God brought him animals. Imagine that.  And how quickly God could do that, he concluded from the record that God brought the animals to Noah, before the Flood, in just one week, because again, he brought only the main representatives of the animals. So, concludes F.F., Adam named the animals in a one week and found that it became difficult for him after that. So God put him to sleep and created Eve.
A really speculative interpretation.

In his speech, F. Franz continues with a dazzling presentation about unwritten things in Bible, but his imagination works well. So he says that God could have created another man with whom Adam could talk, so it would not be boring and difficult for him. Because he would be just as perfect as him. But, in that case, they would not be able to reproduce, so God would have to create countless men to fill the Earth. This would again cause a further problem, because if these men rebelled against God, then one sacrifice of Jesus Christ would not be enough. it would take as many sacrifices as the number of these men is. But, since God is economical, (he literally said that, God is economical, so he alludes that he could have known it, he predicted, in other words, that people would sin) then instead of creating a large number of men, he solved it by creating one female unit.

It's all a product of meditating on the things of God in the Bible, isn't it?

[John 12.24to28]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In his speech, F. Franz continues with a dazzling presentation about unwritten things in Bible, but his imagination works well.

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Franz uttered some interesting nonsense

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

confused application of prophecy and plain non-prophetic biblical statements with the historical experience of WTJWorg and his predecessors.

Therefore. September 5th 1975 is the turning point in which or after which, but it is a month, two, three months or a short number of years in which Armageddon will come.

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

He said don't get married, don't look for a good job, don't plan for children, don't plan for education, because that Day is coming quickly.

 

"However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,  by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.  They forbid marriage..."

 

(1 Timothy 4:1-3)

 

"In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.”  For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them.  To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn. For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good.  But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked and stop associating with him, so that he may become ashamed.  And yet do not consider him an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

 

(2 Thessalonians 3:10-15)

 

"Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."

 

(Mark 13:32)

 

"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”  He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."

 

(Acts 1:6,7)

 

It's interesting how many talks, presentations, videos, and books have been made about a make-believe topic! 1914 1975 etc etc...And also how the entire "Bethel" arrangement is an apostasy from what Jesus taught as regards the Christian congregation. Paul said to "mark" anyone who doesn't want to get a job and instead wants to live off others to do a "ministry" and to not associate with them. By that counsel, all of those at Bethel and all the COs should be "disfellowshipped" in the manner described by Paul. What a big mess!

 

@Srecko Sostar, thank you for taking the time to listen to and summarize that talk - F.W. Franz's talk is clearly all a form of a "performance" or like a comedy act! "Clowns" indeed!

 

"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying:  “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses.  Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.  They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.  All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments.  They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues  and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men.  But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers.  Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.  Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.  But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

 

(Matthew 23:1-12)

 

Jesus is going to humble them in time. Hopefully they repent.

 

"The GB has no clothes." Their self-exaltation as some kind of "FDS" clergy class thing is make-believe.

[Pudgy]

I think we need to have a new rule for this open club…… And that is if you give an  up vote or down vote  … if you are challenged on it you have to give a full explanation suitable to be understood by the average five year old.

Just a passing thought, no more.

it’s just that I see when someone presents hard facts that are irrefutable, and also supply the references by which can be checked by anybody that cares to do so some idiot will give it a down vote.

How can a rational sane person down vote a hard fact that is easily proven?

Reality is what it is, well, except in the case of people who’s thinking it’s driven by their agenda that the fantasy is real and must be defended somehow, even if they can’t defend it.

it’s become a running gag here like the “Myth Myth “ running gag in a Muppet movie of spasm reflex down voting.

Never mind, it’s become so pernicious that it’s become funny.

… it’s like what Adolf Hitler said in his bunker, after he had shot the Eva Braun Hitler, the wife he just married, to death with a Luger and was about to end his own life, “You know, those Allied Forces just CANNOT take a joke!”

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

F.W. Franz's talk is clearly all a form of a "performance"

I'm not a native English or American English speaker, but his whole narration, emphasizing parts of sentences, certain words are overemphasized . Each sentence has its own boring rhythm in which two or three words are constantly given a prominent place, only for the next two or three to be reduced in importance, and over again. And so for more than an hour. In my opinion he is a weak speaker, but because he thinks he is an important person who has terribly important things to say, things that are the Revelation of the 20th century, his speech seems pompous and as if it is the ultimate truth that will never change again, like those explanations given by his predecessors, especially Rutherford..

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I'm not a native English or American English speaker, but his whole narration, emphasizing parts of sentences, certain words are overemphasized . Each sentence has its own boring rhythm in which two or three words are constantly given a prominent place, only for the next two or three to be reduced in importance, and over again. And so for more than an hour. In my opinion he is a weak speaker, but because he thinks he is an important person who has terribly important things to say, things that are the Revelation of the 20th century, his speech seems pompous and as if it is the ultimate truth that will never change again, like those explanations given by his predecessors, especially Rutherford..

Well, I didn't have the patience to listen to it, so I am thankful you were willing to summarize for us!

 

The fact that he would make up all those stories when the scriptures clearly say "no one knows the day or the hour" the Kingdom would begin...I don't understand why they keep saying it was 1914 or 1975 or that they know since Jesus said they wouldn't know.

 

The scriptures do have a ton to say about the time the UN rules as a dominant world power and how long the great tribulation lasts. It's amazing the GB don't have anything to say about that. They are asleep.

 

Jehovah has made clear that we are not yet in the time of Jesus' rule. We also are not at the feet of the dream image yet. The UN isn't the dominant world power yet. Satan hasn't been cast down yet. Religion hasn't been attacked and destroyed yet. God's Word shows that we are not at the end of the end of the "toes" yet. The great tribulation hasn't started yet, and once it does start the Bible says it will last 3 1/2 years.

 

 

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

3 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Jehovah has made clear that we are not yet in the time of Jesus' rule. We also are not at the feet of the dream image yet. The UN isn't the dominant world power yet. Satan hasn't been cast down yet. Religion hasn't been attacked and destroyed yet. God's Word shows that we are not at the end of the end of the "toes" yet. The great tribulation hasn't started yet, and once it does start the Bible says it will last 3 1/2 years.