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Baptism of Children by Jehovah's Witnesses

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Space Merchant -
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8  YEAR  OLD  PHILIPPINES  GIRL.jpg

Very  rare  and  never  seen  in  Europe...   a  SO  young  sister  before  her  baptism !

But  I  saw  it  in  pic's  and  reports  -  its  really  true !!   I  will  soon  post  it  here...

Its  great  -  how  mature  the  kids  in  Asia  and  Africa...    wow ! 

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Guest Nicole

Wow, 5 years old, never heard about someone getting baptized that age in the JWs organization before. 

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On 2/3/2019 at 8:24 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

How desperate the GB / JW Org is getting, and how competitive it must be getting for parents. 

Yep. We're really desperate, and competitive. All losers excluded!!!

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On 2/3/2019 at 8:24 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So they count as JW's from age of 3 when they put in Report Slips,

and they can get baptised from age of 5. 

How desperate the GB / JW Org is getting, and how competitive it must be getting for parents. 

Oh look!!! Those silly disciples are still at it!

Just like it says at Mark 10:13-16.....................

"People now began bringing him young children for him to touch them, but the disciples reprimanded them. At seeing this, Jesus was indignant and said to them: “Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” And he took the children into his arms and began blessing them, laying his hands on them."

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On 2/5/2019 at 12:07 PM, Outta Here said:

Oh look!!! Those silly disciples are still at it!

Just like it says at Mark 10:13-16.....................

"People now began bringing him young children for him to touch them, but the disciples reprimanded them. At seeing this, Jesus was indignant and said to them: “Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” And he took the children into his arms and began blessing them, laying his hands on them."

So equating coming to Jesus to be blessed with baptism is how you justify this practice?  Reread the scripture you quoted, it states NOTHING about baptizing. This is the classic example of where the wt has trained it's followers to use scripture out of context just as they do.

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On 2/5/2019 at 7:59 PM, Outta Here said:

Yep. We're really desperate, and competitive. All losers excluded!!!

It would be so lovely if it were possible to know how many JW's are under 16 years old. 

Because when a lot of them reach 16 they leave home and leave the JW Org. Kinda proves they are only in there because of pressure from parents. And some only get baptised because they have made some kind of 'deal' with parents to get other privileges at home... 

And here in the UK it seems very difficult to get young men to take on any responsibility in the Org. There will probably be a shortage of Elders and M/s soon. In fact i know of one congregation where a brother does the work of 3 because of lack of m/s or elders to help out. 

I am finding it a real pain not being able to give facts on here, but I don't want to get other people into trouble with their bosses / elders. 

 

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On 2/5/2019 at 9:07 PM, Outta Here said:

People now began bringing him young children for him to touch them, but the disciples reprimanded them.

to touch them.... well, text speaking about touching children for blessings, not baptizing children.

dear Outta Here, wrong interpretation and misapplication of bible text, for sure. 

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30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

dear Outta Here, wrong interpretation and misapplication of bible text, for sure

Rubbish! You're outside the camp, under reprimand.....accept it!

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Because when a lot of them reach 16 they leave home and leave the JW Org. Kinda proves they are only in there because of pressure from parents. And some only get baptised because they have made some kind of 'deal' with parents to get other privileges at home... 

Oh come on please. How does this observation of the obvious show any kind of insight? They are just like you surely? Start off for whatever reasons, then fizzle out for whatever reasons. Just as the apostle John stated centuries ago.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It would be so lovely if it were possible to know how many JW's are under 16 years old. 

That would be interesting indeed. But not readily available. Maybe we can get at least something from the 2014 analysis someone did in USA? (I know you have some geographical partialities..............).Age distribution among Jehovah's Witnesses.png

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2014 was a long time ago regarding the Child Abuse issues. It has become mainstream news now so the Gb and it's Org lost that battle to keep it all secret. Hence a lot more people over 16 or 18 would have left the Org by now. And been replaced by 3 and 5 years olds it seems. 

Until last year I never really thought about how they count the amount of JW's in the Org. I just thought they kept numbers of all those that are baptised. However I read online somewhere that a 'prominent' JW said that the number of JW's is counted by the number of monthly reports going in. He said it was more important to count 'active' members than baptised members. Can't remember who said it as it wasn't important to me at the time. But now seeing all this about 3 and 5 years olds it does make me think how desperate the GB and the Org are. 

By the way, Srecko is right you completely miss the meaning of the scripture you used. The scripture is talking about adults lowering their pride and becoming like children. 

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” 

Jesus was usingthe young children as showing humility. But i don't expect you to understand that. 

@Outta Here  said "Rubbish! You're outside the camp, under reprimand.....accept it!"  

Wow see the humility there :) NO................... Who is Srecko supposed to be 'under reprimand' by ? 

You see Outta Here, all that shows is you worship of the GB and it's JW Org. I see no signs that Srecko is not still a worshipper of God, therefore God, through Jesus Christ is judge, not you Outta Here.

Quote @Outta Here  "Oh come on please. How does this observation of the obvious show any kind of insight? They are just like you surely? Start off for whatever reasons, then fizzle out for whatever reasons. Just as the apostle John stated centuries ago."

Well no actually. Children born into JW families are forced to go to meetings and to 'pre-study' etc. It is difficult for parents and for the children. Meetings have gradually got shorter so it gets a bit easier of course. But assemblies are chaos, for parents and children alike. Please remember I had years in the JW Org, so I talk from some experience. Experience of seeing other parents struggling with children and having done so myself, with two families.... And having seen many teenagers leave the Org as soon as they were able.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I see no signs that Srecko is not still a worshipper of God, therefore God, through Jesus Christ is judge,

Which excludes your assessment no doubt.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Who is Srecko supposed to be 'under reprimand' by

Apart from the obvious Scriptural reprimand, there are admissions I have just noted to being an ex JW in Sreko Sostar postings which constitute the same. 

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Please remember I had years in the JW Org, so I talk from some experience

Of course you do. And your reaction to that experience is that you are now (happily I presume) an ex JW along with those others you refer to. Just as John said. 

I can't understand why you just can't seem to go on and enjoy your independent life along with those others.

Anyway, pardon me for turning to other topics for now. 

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Of course you do. And your reaction to that experience is that you are now (happily I presume) an ex JW along with those others you refer to. Just as John said. 

I can't understand why you just can't seem to go on and enjoy your independent life along with those others.

Perhaps he is trying to follow Christ’s path, and expose the lies and hypocrisy.  ❤️ Matt 3:1-3;John 8:44; 2 Cor 10:4-6

We don’t walk away “happy” from the organization. If your emotional and spiritual heart is ripped in two, it takes time to recover.  Matt 24:9,21, Luke 12:53  It takes time to start all over again, learning how we were stumbled, through scripture untainted by men’s doctrine.  It takes time to build a true relationship with the Father and Christ outside of men’s orchestrated doctrinal demands.  Eventually, faith and peace is achieved by understanding the true Shepherd is watching over his sheep, protecting them until he returns.  Matt 5:1-12; John 10:1-5; Luke 15:4-7

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On 2/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So they count as JW's from age of 3 when they put in Report Slips, and they can get baptised from age of 5. How desperate the GB / JW Org is getting

You are not up to date in your sources of intelligence, John. Currently, all married sisters are required via “mind control” to visit their doctors each month. The moment a pregnancy is detected, the unborn is counted as a member. The mother is forced to study with her child and MUST shake her belly every 10 minutes to ensure that it does not nod off.

Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I read online somewhere that a 'prominent' JW said that the number of JW's is counted by the number of monthly reports going in. 

You could have just asked the Witness sitting next to you at your last meeting. Everyone knows this.

How many Witnesses there are depends on how you count. Should one count all those who are baptized? Meeting attenders? Memorial attenders? 

Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.

There is absolutely no incentive to ‘pump up the numbers,’ as you suggest. It would even be counterproductive to do so. And unnecessary. If the GB is as underhanded as you say, they could just double or treble the existing numbers, and order through “thought control” anybody who knows of it not to spill the beans.

 

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Number theology have two side.

First - number of members must be small, because that proves Bible words how very few will find  The Truth.

Second - number of members have to go up, to be bigger and bigger, because that proves how God giving His blessings on Church.  

:))

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@TrueTomHarley  You know you may even be a good author, it's the way you twist things and use sarcasm to try to hide the truth.

Are you calling Queen Esther a liar ? And Jack also ?   Isn't the proof being put in front of your own eyes ? 

But, there is none so blind as those that do not want to see.  Keep selling your books Tom it's all you are really interested in anyway. 

But I think you've shot yourself in the foot by admitting this :-

Quote Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.

Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.

You have therefore confirmed what i said. Under 10 year olds can have a Field Service Report put in by their parents and it will be counted. And they start at 3 years old Tom. 

It's not about 'pumping up the numbers' Tom, it's about trying to hide how many are leaving the JW Org. 

Replacing the number of adults in the Org with children, by counting the children as proper JW's, and people outside will not know the difference. It's about 'show' Tom, and you know it. 

It's all a front. Pretending the JW Org is clean and pretending the JW Org has a healthy number of members. 

But it only works to fool those in the world that do not understand how bad the JW Org really is. 

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I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

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On 2/24/2019 at 5:01 AM, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[

    Hello guest!
] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

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When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :) 

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

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8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :)

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Right.  Does God need us to be baptized at all? Nope.

Does it do us some good? yep, but it is not required. Thus it is not required of anyone per Luke 23

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,[

    Hello guest!
] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

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On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[

    Hello guest!
] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

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On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

No one here is throwing ideas. Death unto Life isn’t a concept practiced by a sole group, despite the differs in denomination, it is as clear as day in the history behind it, as is, with what can be seen from a birds eye view of Israel’s location in regards to the Jordan River.

The people are taught about God, they are literate enough to know and accept, and seek to learn and seek baptism, thus being made disciples.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :)

Baptism is always an excitement for others, it also encourages others to seek it too, nonetheless, there is always a great sense of overjoy on an excessive level.

In my case, I’ve always been wanting to learn more about God despite my current teacher at the time, my own father, and I had sought baptism as a child, and eventually I did get baptized in the country of one of my parents during the closing weeks of summer when we went there, it was done at Basenble , in English, Bassin Bleu, it is not too far off from La Vallee de Jacmel. 5 people, including me, was baptized that day, the youngest among us was age 7, I knew this because it was brought up a number of times and this kid (at the time) was just as God fearing as the rest of us, the oldest was about 30-33. We were told what baptism, regarding the symbolism regarding what John did, we were told this too, Scripture pertaining to this was also brought forth. As this was going on, there was joy by all who were present, some were even singing, even some tourists were present, who occasionally visit Bassin Bleu bore witness and though some were religious or not, they applauded and were astounded. One of the others, who was baptized at the age of 14 and a family friend no longer walks this earth for he perished, was killed years later during the earthquake. If he was alive right now, he trails me by 6-7 years. It’s not unknown that such ones like him are in God’s memory, and he will be brought back to life by means of the hope itself – The Resurrection.

If you are wondering what that place is, this is what it looks like:

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Tourist, to this day, go there all the time, and this area is also used by the natives, in the country.

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Perhaps they were not happy due to that day there was a single soul there, not many smiles then. Then again, this sole situation doesn’t define everyone else, take up the baptism as much as I have a disdain for others in this regard, they end up the as you are in this situation, as is with, as is with all.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Baptism is and always will be encouraged, but at the end of the day, it is up to the person in question who, is hard-pressed in seeking and glorifying God and wanting to progress in the spiritual domain. How is there competition? Any Christian who is baptized and or knows one of blood and or a friend who is going to be and or is baptized is over joyed.

Actually it isn’t a way of thinking. When it comes to Baptism, there is a clear reason as to why I brought up the very origin of it, which goes back to the customs professed by God’s people when they were limited to what they can or cannot do for a period of time, whereas baptism itself is not too far from ritual washing, hence what I had addressed months ago.

God’s way of thinking is indeed important, now that you have said that, it goes back to what you said about spiritual wisdom. God wants the people to know who he is, and what he has done, regarding Jesus, any Jew, even to this day, from the time they can speak and can understand, they are taught the Shema, and they learn and recite it, which also relates to learning about and recognizing the True God himself and what his Kingdom will bring, since such things go hand in hand.

If the 5 year old is ready and willing, has dedicated him or herself seeking the truth of the Scriptures, wanting to not just learn about God, but become close to him as a friend and apply his Word, the teachings of his Son, glorying God and so forth, then there is no problem with that, and in regards to the symbolism of Baptism regarding John the Baptist, Baptism is a passing through from death unto life and such enables one to fully take up self-sacrifice and spiritual servitude to the one True God – YHWH.

It should be known that the Bible does not specify an age at which a person should get baptized i.e. this so called age requirement profess is as twisted as straw of twizzlers. But, a young one who is willing to learn, wanting to seek baptism can benefit from parents, peers, and or other to help them get on this path.

 However, parents can benefit from reflecting on what it means to make a disciple.

@Matthew9969 I suggest reading Galatians 4.

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On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well.

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

I didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct. Again, believe what you'd like and I'll do as well. Those of us who reside in the real world will continue to understand implications of words and context just fine. 

 

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

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If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person? What a logic?! haha 

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18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

Am I? Not quite. The context of Scripture and all references in relation to that passage speaks truth in this matter. You can continue as you like in the world, and the best thing you can do in regards to such ones is to profess Scripture; and of course mainstream Christendom will be right behind you.

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

Yes, but one should negate negate what such means regarding that verse. You keep bringing up the Watchtower as if they have 100% say in this. Even outside of the Restorationist Community. No one can negate the fact that when a disciple is baptized, he or she follows the teachings of the teacher.

Got it? There is more context to the verse itself than one realize, why should one simply ignore it?

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct.

Again, I haven't twisted anything regardless to what I said, for I, which is known make a response to a response. There is no twisting of the very fact that those who are willing, those who capable of hearing and receiving the word, and so forth.

You can do what you will, read or not, for what has been said cannot be negated when one can draw context of Scripture, as is with all pertaining baptism.

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

As in what exactly? Whenever a point has been made I make the response, be it positive, negative and or neutral, and on some when one misunderstands what I convey, you are not the first, I speak my peace in this regard.

And how is what I am saying is incorrect exactly? If something is of error, I do not speak of it, when an error is profess, I speak up, other times I seek more research on the matter, and then some.

How so?

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12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

Restorationist wouldn't be caught dead doing that. Sadly, Child Marriage is a legitimate thing, in the United States, in some cases, children/teens are forced to marry their rapist and or abuser. With the whole situation of the new movements running rampant, there are people who are wanting to make change, seeing age as nothing more than a number.

Believe it or not, in some areas the age of consent I believe is 16-18. I know in the UK it is 16, other areas vary.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person?

The decision to seek God and follow the teachings of the teacher is up to the individual. Those capable of, willfully hearing the word and so forth. Such ones, as I have, become dedicated to God's thinking, Order, and all things. When one is spiritually mature, he understands Scripture, has read the great book and knows it well, even outside of the it the history of the early Christians and Israelites, etc. Even after baptism, the learning does not stop, it continues, for growing with God by yourself, in this sense, is like a form of training of the body and mind.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What a logic?! haha 

I am confused on what you are conveying, saith again?

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@Space Merchant That's one thing. When it comes to being mature Spiritual wise. There are people however that believes in being guilty of sin straight out of the womb and they go and baptize children who have no idea what is going on. That ain't it chief. But yeah, baptism is usually encouraged but it is up to the decision of the individual if they want to be baptized and serve Jehovah God. It not only shows you embrace the teachings, but also wanting to serve God.

Also just a little curious. You mentioned baptism origin, you were referring to the Israelites yes? Both Old and New Testament also? Lastly what place is that where you say you got baptized. 

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16 hours ago, Outta Here said:

It's your logic you are describing here you know.

Frida's logic must've jumped out the window, took an uber to the train station, taking a one way trip to anywhere. 

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3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

That's one thing. When it comes to being mature Spiritual wise. There are people however that believes in being guilty of sin straight out of the womb and they go and baptize children who have no idea what is going on

This alone is unbiblical. A Child, in this sense, an infant, and or baby, shouldn't be baptized at all, and the guilty of sins narrative is absurd. Only those who are capable of hearing the word and the like, seeking God and his Kingdom, and the teachings of his Son, Jesus; such ones can be baptized, regardless, for they seek it, and they shall have, and benefit in their trek of spiritual growth.

That being said, I did talk about this before:

 

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

That ain't it chief.

Of course.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

But yeah, baptism is usually encouraged but it is up to the decision of the individual if they want to be baptized and serve Jehovah God. It not only shows you embrace the teachings, but also wanting to serve God.

Pretty much the jest of what I have been professing throughout since the other Bible discussions elsewhere on here.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Also just a little curious. You mentioned baptism origin, you were referring to the Israelites yes? Both Old and New Testament also?

Yes, ritual washing concerning the Israelites, as is with why John the Baptist baptized his people in the Jordan River itself. Find the river on a map, and look to the left, and look to the right.

3 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Lastly what place is that where you say you got baptized. 

The image shown to Mr. Butler, the location in question is Jacmel, Haiti. Baptized in 1997-1998. So I was quite young, but even before baptism I pressed forth in everything pertaining to Scripture and of God. In my case, I am just as eager as the next guy in wanting to be close to the True God and seeing his great Kingdom, and awaiting for the one of whom he installed to sit at the throne to rid all badness from the earth. Those who I known, who had perished, I wish to see them also. Reasons why since the day I opened a Bible, I continued on ever since, and growing up, some young ones whom I came across, even to this day, even among the homeless, I share the Word and give example. It also plays into the fact that I am a Truther, to some degree.

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16 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

It also plays into the fact that I am a Truther, to some degree.

A Truther?  Another title?  

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12 minutes ago, Witness said:

A Truther?  Another title?  

A Truther is someone who, in this sense, seeks truth to an event and or situation, someone who does not play into the MSM narrative and or conspiracy, let alone government schemes and so forth that is being pushed on to the people on a TV set, phones, etc. what have you. This should be very evident to you, Witness, when time and time again I uttered what I have been saying about accepting conspiracy and or falsehood, which goes back to our very first discussion, and even before that, regarding the very man who debated with me regarding Church Fathers. It is not much of a title, per-say, one is usually called this in regards to what was stated in this response you are reading, and or correlates with the many times I addressed to you about falsehood and conspiracy, unless you've forgotten that?

You once said to me you do not delve too deep into certain things, but I do, to separate truth from lies, and speak truth and refute lies.

That being said, it is a surprise how you missed I brought this up a couple of times when I responded to you on a number of occasions, both directly and indirectly in a sense.

one who believes that the truth about an important subject or event is being concealed from the public by a powerful conspiracy.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

You once said to me you do not delve too deep into certain things, but I do, to separate truth from lies, and speak truth and refute lies.

What were those certain things?  Do you remember?  From what I recall they had to do with politics and not scripture.    The term, "Truther" is very foreign to me.  If I remain in Christ, I remain in truth.  "Truther" sounds like a member of a cult.  If you've used it before, I may have skimmed over it when glancing at your rather long posts.  You've probably written a book, just to me, which I won't  finish reading.  Let's not start another one.  :)

 

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17 hours ago, Witness said:

What were those certain things?  Do you remember?  From what I recall they had to do with politics and not scripture. 

A combination especially to a number of occasions I told you to stop mixing Scripture. And it was more on that, one discussion regarding God's order whereas you made the claim I am misogyny when I am not, you used typos against me 2 times whereas the latter information rebukes you.

No Scripture? If I recall, these can easily be looked up, so it is best you not assume out of the blue in this regard.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

The term, "Truther" is very foreign to me. 

If that was the case, why assume it was a title? Plus I had stated this, even alluded to this in the past whereas I told you time and time again regarding you pressing conspiracy and or a falsehood as a truth, i.e. assuming Satan was the one who took it upon himself to go after the Egyptians, and or twice where you twisted strongs, assuming a metaphorical use was literal, only in these situations, you have been refuted with absolute undeniable truth. You said it yourself, you do not go that deep into things, but quick to jump on the caravan when something that is correct is professed.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

If I remain in Christ, I remain in truth.

Then take up the advise I told you last time, to stop scraping your scraping and bruising yourself, when it comes to seeking truth, but you continue to do so time and time again. And since the discussion is about baptism, it should not be alien to you as to all things pretianing to such.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

"Truther" sounds like a member of a cult.

Actually no. I gave you a legitimate definition of the word. a Truther does not align or identify him or herself with anything pretiaining to conspiracy, or cults that profess conspiracy. 

That being said, you just said the term was unknown to you, need I post an actual link of the word itself which is, in common use, of those who profess what is truth in the sea of lies?

17 hours ago, Witness said:

If you've used it before, I may have skimmed over it when glancing at your rather long posts. 

And yet before you made a response to them a number of times. In fact, you made a couple of responses, i.e. inspired and not inspired prophets.

17 hours ago, Witness said:

You've probably written a book, just to me, which I won't  finish reading.  Let's not start another one.  :)

You're not too bad yourself with your pear novels, but that being said, we should not be diving deep into conspiracy and or falsehood and profess it as truth at all.

Now pretianing to all things regarding baptism, it should not be unknown to you of the eagerness of those who seek to be baptize, to follow the teachings of the teacher and so forth, and in the end, wanting to show a total and great service to God the Father. There is a reason I alluded to the origins of baptism, but if you want to speak truth, I allow you to go first in this regard, since it seems people want to alienate the context of Jesus' words and to plight over claims of twisting.

That being said, a bit of humor, if you mix verses again or give conspiracy as a truth, I will give you an Encyclopedia, signed off by the Trinitarian, cos.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Now pretianing to all things regarding baptism, it should not be unknown to you of the eagerness of those who seek to be baptize, to follow the teachings of the teacher and so forth, and in the end, wanting to show a total and great service to God the Father. There is a reason I alluded to the origins of baptism, but if you want to speak truth, I allow you to go first in this regard, since it seems people want to alienate the context of Jesus' words and to plight over claims of twisting.

"to follow the teachings of the teacher and so forth."  My comment here was about Watchtower's baptisms, which do NOT follow the teachings of the teacher - Jesus Christ.   This is truth.  I will not entertain your whim to degrade anything and everything I have said here.

Fire away, SM.  :)  I am finished.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

"to follow the teachings of the teacher and so forth."  My comment here was about Watchtower's baptisms, which do NOT follow the teachings of the teacher - Jesus Christ. 

Reasons why I alluded to the origins of Baptism, if you do not mind me asking, do you realize what took place after Jesus' ascension regarding baptism, and in regards to what I said before, you are aware of the very symbolic reason as to why John baptized his people in the Jordan River, right?

That being said, if that was the case, you wouldn't be this focused on the term "Truther" alone when my response had more to say on baptism, this also goes into my older response regarding infant baptism, which is legitimately unbiblical.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

 This is truth. 

Then speak truth. Mixing spoiled milk with good milk is not good for anyone, and clearly, if someone takes a sip of such, they will speak up about it. One thing for certain, if you understood what is known about baptism in the Jordan River, you'd realize the joy of the people in regards to what this means, especially for John, it was not about repentance alone - it is far more than that, and the Bible speaks of this.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I will not entertain your whim to degrade anything and everything I have said here.

You'd be wise to not speak of degrading, for last I checked, you shifted a spiritual structure so greatly, even the latter was against you.

That being said, since the discussion is about baptism in of itself, why is it that John baptized his people in the Jordan River?

And if I am to make the assumption, are you among the fold who halts one who seeks baptism and willingness to profess the teachings of the teacher, Christ Jesus who is Lord?

Secondly I am sure you are aware of those who hears God's Word pretianing to baptism, yes?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Fire away, SM.  :)  I am finished.  

Speak your peace regarding baptism and if need be, it's origin. Hopefully no outlandish claims, and this time, direct.

That being said, if the young ones seek, and they are ready and worked hard for it, why should we withhold them from progressing, they and their household? Withhold them from glorifying God even more alongside brothers and sisters who follow the teachings of the teacher as well? Unless, you are purposely forgetting Apostle Paul, who, in this sense, was not doing things or saying things out of opinion.

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

"to follow the teachings of the teacher and so forth."  My comment here was about Watchtower's baptisms, which do NOT follow the teachings of the teacher - Jesus Christ.   This is truth.  I will not entertain your whim to degrade anything and everything I have said here.

Fire away, SM.  :)  I am finished.  

 

 

I just realize it wasn't under this topic, but...

 

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18 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

if the young ones seek, and they are ready and worked hard for it,

This statement right here is unbiblical.  For reference see acts 8:34-38

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This statement right here is unbiblical.  For reference see acts 8:34-38

For starters, the passage as a whole, Philip and the Eunuch is verses 26-40, excluding verse 37 because it is not an authentic verse. And no, what was said isn’t unbiblical. When a person has been studying the word diligently, becoming hearers of the word and embraces it, they will most likely seek baptism on their own accord, and as stated before, in doing so, they accept the teachings of the teacher, Lord Christ Jesus (Acts 2:38, 41). Moreover, it is already known that God sees such ones, even those of a household as holy.
Now what you just posted was the part of the passage, Philip and the Eunuch (The Ethiopian Eunuch), and I take it you didn’t care to even explain yourself in this regard, in which I can see why.


Acts 8:26-40 (excluding 37)

Quote

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch
[26] Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place.[27] And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship [28] and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. [29] And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” [30] So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” [31] And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. [32] Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
    and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
    so he opens not his mouth.
[33] In his humiliation justice was denied him.
    Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” [35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. [36] And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [38] And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. [39] And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. [40] But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

A Eunuch was someone is tasked to take charge of beds in lodging room areas of secluded princesses, also refers to a man who has been castrated, as well as an ineffectual person. According to Deuteronomy 23:1, a Eunuch was not allowed to be part among the congregates of God’s people, however regarding the passage in the book of Acts, not a literal Eunuch, but rather someone who serves in some royal court regarding the person in the passage and he was likely a circumcised proselyte (not a Jew) who had mostly likely heard and embrace the teachings of God and having gone to the city to profess religious worship, only later on he learns of the message Phillip gave to him. In the passage this person, the Eunuch, was in under the Queen of Ethiopia, in charge of the treasury and in the passage, we know that Phillip crossed paths with this person and preached the gospel to him.


Regarding the baptism, Christians attain knowledge and a precise understanding of God’s Word, again, those who hear and accept, capable ones, which is indeed biblical, and such ones soon accept the teachings of the Christ. Learning from Acts 2 regarding Pentecost, the people in the city at the time, were together in worship and in faith, already having knowledge of God, what is spoken of in the Hebrew Text, and the teaching of the Messianic Age whereas this was professed clearly, to all, regarding the Messiah, that is Jesus Christ, even by Simon Peter who proclaimed this strongly and the end result of such, those who came forth and took ear, listened, they heard, and they embraced, and obviously enough, they were baptized, taking up the teachings of the teacher, again, Jesus, hence the preaching of the good news gospel and the Messianic Age.

Back to Phillip, when he proclaimed the word, the people believed and they embraced it after hearing it, and earlier on we see the people, such as those in Samaria, ended up being baptized (Acts 8:4-8, 12-14), and this in of itself is quite evident and clear because it is evident that after Jesus preached to a Samaritan woman, at the Well of Jacob, at the base of Mount Gerizim, and soon, the message that Jesus professed came on to the Samaritan people, they ended up putting faith in the teacher himself put faith in him and accepting what he taught (John 4:27-42), for the Messiah, the one that the Samaritans had waited for, paved a way for people such as Phillip to spread this message.


Now, the Ethiopian Eunuch, had knowledge of God as well as knowing fully well of the Hebrew Text. Phillip proclaim the word, the message and fulfillment of the text regarding the Messiah, to which the Ethiopian Eunuch embraced this message, and evidently, he was (wanted to be) baptized, prior, he even asked to be baptized when they sought for a body of water, stopped the chariot, to commence the baptism (Ritual Washing as it was called) once a source was found, rejoicing afterwards. This but one of several examples, i.e. what we read about a guard who was about to commit suicide, but was given the message of the Christ, Jesus, and he was baptized, and eventually his household was baptized (Acts 16:16-24, 25-39).


That being said, as you can see, a person from another nation, who was a proselyte, evidently sought baptism, and evidently, he received it, and it isn’t unknown here that he embraced the teachings pretianing to the Christ (good news gospel, Messianic Age, fulfillment of Scripture, etc.), even with what he knew and what more he heard from Phillip in this regard.
Therefore, it is not unbiblical should any person from any nation, who embraces the word, attains wisdom in this sense and seeks baptism, etc. In the end, such ones are hearers of the word, most importantly, in regards to baptism and how it translates to Christian baptism, we become alive in the Will of God as well.

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@Witness You never pointed out as to what exactly it is that is wrong here. You do realize how the church of the Christ harmoniously connects with the Christian people - right? Reasons why I did ask you a question: Why is it that John the Baptism baptized his people in the Jordan River?

As a hint, this isn't concerning repentance in this regard, but pertains to baptism origin, in this sense.

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8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

When a person has been studying the word diligently,

show me where in the Bible it says you must "study diligently". 

 

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Now what you just posted was the part of the passage, Philip and the Eunuch (The Ethiopian Eunuch), and I take it you didn’t care to even explain yourself in this regard, in which I can see why.

bahahahaha, you mean your education on what a eunuch is? bahahahahahaha

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Now, the Ethiopian Eunuch, had knowledge of God as well as knowing fully well of the Hebrew Text. Phillip proclaim the word, the message and fulfillment of the text regarding the Messiah, to which the Ethiopian Eunuch embraced this message, and evidently, he was (wanted to be) baptized, prior, he even asked to be baptized when they sought for a body of water, stopped the chariot, to commence the baptism (Ritual Washing as it was called) once a source was found, rejoicing afterwards. This but one of several examples, i.e. what we read about a guard who was about to commit suicide, but was given the message of the Christ, Jesus, and he was baptized, and eventually his household was baptized (Acts 16:16-24, 25-39).

completely irrelevant! so you telling us the story again proves what? NOTHING. It is a fact that the eunuch was baptized, but he didn't even know what he was reading! verses 31&31. Give me a break sm, you stretch things so far to try and validate yourself its on the border of narcissism.

 

Was baptism necessary for the thief on the cross next to Jesus? NOPE. 

 

 

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I would add this was during the time when Saul was playing the round up game with Christians. And also people went to the Temple of Jehovah to obersve and worship. But yeah, what our official man of the hour didn't know was about the Christ, we see that the Eunuch didn't understand what that he was reading in a particular chapter Hebrew Scriptures, he needed spiritual guidance. An interesting note is him even trying to study something that deep to begin with,  even reading it out loud, let alone having the book of Isaiah with him. What he was reading is the prophecy of Isaiah found in chapter 53

7 He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, But he would not open his mouth. He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers, And he would not open his mouth. 8 Because of restraint and judgment he was taken away; And who will concern himself with the details of his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living; Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.

When asked if he understood what he was reading, he didn't know unless guided and a-day, Philip gives the good news about Jesus.

35 Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.

 

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

show me where in the Bible it says you must "study diligently". 

 

You pick apart my words and assume. If you read my response you can see I cited the verses regarding those who embrace the word, those who hear it. To quote exactly what I said [When a person has been studying the word diligently, becoming hearers of the word and embraces it, they will most likely seek baptism on their own accord, and as stated before, in doing so, they accept the teachings of the teacher, Lord Christ Jesus (Acts 2:38, 41). Moreover, it is already known that God sees such ones, even those of a household as holy.] Moreover, we are encouraged to read God’s word daily, observe, study, and if you are feeling it, even recite (for some loved to quote a verse and speak on context based on study and memorization, i.e. John 4), and there is no problem with observing and applying God’s Word even in our lives (2 Timothy 3:14-17, Deut. 17:18-20, Amos 8:11, Psalms 1, 19:10-11, 119:9 and Acts 17:11).

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

bahahahaha, you mean your education on what a eunuch is? bahahahahahaha

Want to explain this?

The passage begins with Philip being told by an angel of God set for from Jerusalem to Gaza, and in his travels is where he had encountered the Ethiopian Eunuch, but the man in the passage was not like the Eunuchs who could not even go to the temple to observe and religiously worship God, hence what was already said in my last response. In Acts 8:26-40, we clearly read that he had just gone from the Temple, for it was not unknown to anyone here that the observing and partaking of religious worship to God takes place here, and as to what he didn’t know what he was reading it was concerning the Christ, fulfillment pertaining to the Lord, reasons why I stated that Phillip explained to the Eunuch in regards to fulfillment of the Scripture concerning the Christ, for he couldn’t even apply who it connects to the Christ until it was explained to him, afterwards fully embracing such the gospel given to him.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

completely irrelevant!

How exactly? Do tell.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

so you telling us the story again proves what? NOTHING.

Actually, it does prove something regarding insight drawn from the passage itself. For you brought up a portion of this passage and said what I have said was unbiblical, i.e. wanting to be baptized.

Clearly the Eunuch heard and embrace the gospel concerning the Christ and he was baptized, hence accepting the teachings of the teacher, the Christ, so how is it nothing and unbiblical if such equates to what I addressed before?

regarding the Son of God, as is with all who seek to follow the teacher who explained the teachings.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

It is a fact that the eunuch was baptized, 

Ok. We mustn’t forget that he sought baptism after he was a hearer of the message concerning the Christ, being touched by this message, the is no question that the Eunuch was joy filled with the experience and as to what he had learned exactly what he was reading, thanks to Phillip, regarding the Christ.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

he didn't even know what he was reading! verses 31&31. 

And this is why afterwards Phillip explained to him these things concerning the Christ, (which he didn't know, if I may add, reading, as you said) and the Eunuch embraced this message that Phillip professed, which I stated already, hence, verse 31.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

Give me a break sm, you stretch things so far to try and validate yourself its on the border of narcissism.

And how am I validating myself exactly? A sole response regarding baptism and suddenly it becomes problematic and yet originally it is said to heed command.

And no, no narcissism here, not even close. But this is a new one for I was called misogynistic, which was unfounded, along with other things that people cannot bear claim to. I don’t lack empathy, I do not consider myself important for I have said before, here, elsewhere, and with the public, I do not consider myself above others or show high admiration of myself. Religiously and culturally, this is not in me to do, even if I sought after it, which in turns denies me of two things mentioned.

That being said, if I am quoted and mentioned, even questioned at times, I will make a response. If you wanted a break why continue to ask and make a response to me when this was not even the first time?

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

Was baptism necessary for the thief on the cross next to Jesus?

Baptismal regeneration? That’s nice. But it's been a while since someone said something in connection to it based on assumption. Now the Thief was in an interesting position. The thief showed respect to the Christ and said what he said in Luke 23:42 for Jesus to remember him and we see Jesus’ response in the next verse.

Clearly, he was not baptized, in addition, he not was he a disciple of the Christ, he was not among those who had gained the spirit, he was not a church convert or observer, let alone was he even aware of any command given compared to the rest. Some in the mainstream would teach their church communities that the thief has been baptized way beforehand, even using spurious verses to justify it just as they do with infant baptism, but it is common knowledge to know that this is not the case, hence what is just said. Nothing is held against those in regards to salvation. Some, such as the thief (and or anyone who before and or after him), never got the chance because of not hearing or being taught God’s word, they end up dying before knowing God or anything pertaining to him or his Christ, etc.

To be very simple, as I am vocal of it already, Baptism is a declaration or a Christian’s faith. We get baptized knowing that we not only accept the teacher as our, Lord, our Savior and our Christ, but we take up his teachings as well, for, as I said, he is our teacher, reasons why when it comes to death unto life, such pertains to it.

That being said, you seem to be confusing with what I said with baptismal regeneration. I am clearly not a Baptist, nor am I a Catholic, and it is not hard to make the distinction between such ones in regards to Baptism.

Like you said, we should be heeding command. When it comes to baptism, those who seek it, we are clothed with Christ, and not only do we accept him, or make declaration, we accept what he had taught.

On 3/4/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shiwiii said:

NOPE. 

OK. But to use something that is equated to baptismal reintegration is very distinct to what I have been saying all along. I mean, the whole infant baptism should be a dead giveaway, but you just had to say such. It is not the first time someone said it, nor will it be the last, especially when it is concerning necessary baptism for some, baptism as a declaration of faith for those who seek it, and the latter that is indeed incorrect is baptism when the person in question, such as an infant is unable to hear or observe God's word at all compared to those who can read and or write as well as speak; also no sprinkles, it is not what was done to the Christ.

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@Equivocation Exactly my point. The Eunuch had no idea what he was reading concerning the Christ, reading this straight from the Hebrew text, that is Isaiah 53. What he was reading, and or has come to was Isaiah 53:7-8:

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

This pertains to the Lord and Savior himself, Christ Jesus. Phillip explained things, like you said, guiding him, all things concerning the Christ based on what text from the Hebrew Scriptures he was reading and the Eunuch accepted by his own accord.

It is clearly evident of whom, for Jesus was the one cut off from the land of the living, hence the reference to Matthew 27:50, Daniel 9:26 is another among the fold of references.

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On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

You pick apart my words and assume. If you read my response you can see I cited the verses regarding those who embrace the word, those who hear it. To quote exactly what I said [When a person has been studying the word diligently, becoming hearers of the word and embraces it, they will most likely seek baptism on their own accord, and as stated before, in doing so, they accept the teachings of the teacher, Lord Christ Jesus (Acts 2:38, 41). Moreover, it is already known that God sees such ones, even those of a household as holy.]

again, these verses do not include the study part you were looking for. 

 

On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

Moreover, we are encouraged to read God’s word daily, observe, study, and if you are feeling it, even recite

of course, this is something we do to grow closer to God. However this has never been a requirement for baptism. 

 

On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

and there is no problem with observing and applying God’s Word even in our lives

no one said otherwise. You are creating a straw-man argument. 

 

On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

Want to explain this?

no I don't, because the statement was self explanatory. 

 

On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

Actually, it does prove something regarding insight drawn from the passage itself. For you brought up a portion of this passage and said what I have said was unbiblical, i.e. wanting to be baptized.

no, what I said was that your statement of having to study to be baptized is unbiblical. You have still failed to prove otherwise. The eunuch did not study as a requirement and the scripture shows just that. He had no idea what he was reading, nor whom it was about. is wasn't until Philip explained it to him did he understand. So having to study IS unbiblical as a requirement for baptism. It certainly helps, and should be done to understand what it is you are even professing, but not a requirement. 

 

On 3/8/2019 at 6:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

If you wanted a break why continue to ask and make a response to me when this was not even the first time?

this makes me think that maybe English is not your first language. "Gimme a break" is an expression. 

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8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

again, these verses do not include the study part you were looking for. 

You pulled a phrase from my statement, and if you read what I said I clearly stated the following [When a person has been studying the word diligently] nothing here to which I had said that there is a verse that says what you are so focused on. However, the Bible does indeed encourage study.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

of course, this is something we do to grow closer to God. However this has never been a requirement for baptism

Exactly the point I've made from the beginning. growing closer to God and glorying him, serving the teacher, his Son, Jesus. Your other comments draws assumption to baptismal regeneration, which is something I am against.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

no one said otherwise. You are creating a straw-man argument. 

No, what I said is based on the context of what I've been saying, take a good look at that response again, Shiwiii.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

no, what I said was that your statement of having to study to be baptized is unbiblical. You have still failed to prove otherwise.

Reading and studying allows us to learn about God, his Son and the Kingdom. As to where am I pointing that is a necessary requirement for baptism when most of what I said was those who seek baptism?

Where are you drawing this from my statement? Learning about God and reading about what he has done for his people is taking in wisdom. Baptism is for those who seek it, be it they have some understanding of God's Word already. If there is an issue about one learning about who God is, I am all ears.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The eunuch did not study as a requirement and the scripture shows just that.

Did you not read what I had said about the Eunuch? The Eunuch was leaving the Temple in Jerusalem, he was already aware of worship and sacrifices made to God being done in the Temple. What he did not understand was what he was reading from the Hebrew Text concerning the Christ, in which we can read as to how that unfolded.

Again, if I am not for baptismal regeneration, why make the statement as if I am pointing that this is indeed a requirement pertaining to being saved?

If you check your reference for that passage, we see what he was reading is pointed directly at the verses in Isaiah, the Hebrew Text.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

He had no idea what he was reading, nor whom it was about.

Exactly, concerning the Christ. He did not know who it was about at all until Phillip explained it to him, and if you took note of what the Hebrew text points to, it is indeed about Christ Jesus.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

is wasn't until Philip explained it to him did he understand.

Clearly I pointed this out.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So having to study IS unbiblical as a requirement for baptism.

I don't support baptismal regeneration, so I welcome you to show me proof to claim.

Nothing I have said here is a requirement, in my response, here and older ones, I've addressed people seeking baptism they themselves learn about God, they read and they do study the word, understanding it fully, and they go on to follow as well the teachings of the teacher. Nothing of what I said, again, supports baptismal regeneration.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

It certainly helps, and should be done to understand what it is you are even professing, but not a requirement. 

If I was professing a necessary requirement, surely I would be in support of baptismal regeneration, which nothing in any of my comments here shows said response to such.

8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

this makes me think that maybe English is not your first language. "Gimme a break" is an expression. 

Because clearly English is indeed not my first language, however, I've studied it long enough to know phrases, expressions and the like. But as I said to you and others before, you make a response to be do not be surprised that I give answer. Mt first language is a combination of French and Spanish. Creole and then English.

I know what the expression is. Another English expression is "the Evidence of absence". You are alluding to me supporting baptismal regeneration and yet nothing I said supports it, why assume such to begin with?

That being said, I will say to you that there are those who believe baptism is a requirement, a necessary action in order to be saved, the same they do with infant sons and daughters to somehow purge of sin guilt. Clearly, I have stated otherwise. Also, would it not be wise you use "give me" instead of "gimmie"? Gimmie sounds childish, but it is whatever floats the boat of those who speak such.

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16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You pulled a phrase from my statement, and if you read what I said I clearly stated the following [When a person has been studying the word diligently] nothing here to which I had said that there is a verse that says what you are so focused on.

still doesn't justify your position. It does muddy the conversation more, if that is your plan. 

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Where are you drawing this from my statement?

from this statement, which I already stated is unbiblical. 

 

On 3/2/2019 at 5:02 PM, Space Merchant said:

That being said, if the young ones seek, and they are ready and worked hard for it, why should we withhold them from progressing, they and their household?

I know you cannot see it, but right here you said that if they work hard enough.......etc. Works are not a requirement for baptism, belief is. 

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On 3/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, Shiwiii said:

still doesn't justify your position. It does muddy the conversation more, if that is your plan. 

On 3/11/2019 at 7:18 PM, Space Merchant said:

Actually I had made the justification. I mentioned that one studies the Bible and suddenly you make claim that I am pulling this "studying" from a specific verse whereas the Bible encourages study, meditation, and reading of God's Word.

On 3/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, Shiwiii said:

from this statement, which I already stated is unbiblical. 

Nowhere in my comments I am in support of baptismal regeneration. So I ask again, where are you drawing this conclusion?

On 3/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, Shiwiii said:

I know you cannot see it, but right here you said that if they work hard enough.......etc. Works are not a requirement for baptism, 

Again, pulling information without merit to what I've said or understood.  Nowhere have I stated works being a requirement. If you read carefully of what I said, when one seeks baptism, they work in ways of building themselves up, reading and obverse God's Word, even glorying God.

You keep pointing to baptismal regeneration when nowhere in my statements point to requirements or a necessary means, but rather, one seeking baptism.

That being said, if you want to learn what baptismal regeneration is, I suggest reading into Catholicism, for clearly here, I am not a Catholic or part of mainstream Christendom.

So I ask you again, can you quote anything from my statements that shows me in support to baptismal regeneration?

On 3/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, Shiwiii said:

belief is. 

Well of course, hence why, I am against baptismal regeneration. But it does not stop someone from seeking baptism if they feel they are ready for it.

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16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Nowhere in my comments I am in support of baptismal regeneration

you keep doing things like this, bringing up something NO ONE said. You are only hearing what you want to hear instead of listening to what IS said. 

 

16 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

when one seeks baptism, they work in ways of building themselves up, reading and obverse God's Word, even glorying God.

so why is it that you couldn't just say this in the first place instead of arguing with me that one must "work" ? 

Is it because you just can't bring yourself to admit I was correct? Works for baptism IS UNBIBLICAL. 

 

Just stop with your strawman "baptismal regeneration", no one said it. 

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5 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Acts 2:37-38

your point? Are you talking about being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit? 

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On 3/11/2019 at 11:44 AM, Shiwiii said:

again, these verses do not include the study part you were looking for. 

 

You are the one who inquired where in the Bible does it say exactly what you are focused on, you twisted my response to make it seem I said the Bible said exactly that whereas in reality, my comments showed that the Bible encourages us to obverse and study. Surely if I said "this verse says the word diligently", your comment would be understandable. But as we can see, nowhere in my comments I said exactly that in the Bible, but rather the opposite. You think I did not see what you attempted to do?

Again, what I said exactly is the following:

When a person has been studying the word diligently, becoming hearers of the word and embraces it, they will most likely seek baptism on their own accord, and as stated before, in doing so, they accept the teachings of the teacher, Lord Christ Jesus (Acts 2:38, 41).

The verse in question regarding encouragement in this domain

[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

So tell me, can you point how anywhere to where I said the Bible stated what you claim exactly? Apparently, no. You brought forth if English was my first language and I gave answer, perhaps one should be asking you the same thing.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you keep doing things like this, bringing up something NO ONE said. You are only hearing what you want to hear instead of listening to what IS said. 

You did. You equated my responses to baptism being a requirement and or a necessary action or else, in this sense. This is called Baptismal Regeneration. Did you not consider such in your comments?

On 3/11/2019 at 11:44 AM, Shiwiii said:

of course, this is something we do to grow closer to God. However this has never been a requirement for baptism. 

 

On 3/11/2019 at 11:44 AM, Shiwiii said:

So having to study IS unbiblical as a requirement for baptism. It certainly helps, and should be done to understand what it is you are even professing, but not a requirement.

Again, not of my comments profess baptism being a requirement and or necessary, what I have stated, always, is that one can seek baptism if he or she chooses to seek it, having building themselves up working towards acquiring knowledge of who God is, his Son and the Kingdom.

You also made comment as to me believing in works over belief:

On 3/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, Shiwiii said:

I know you cannot see it, but right here you said that if they work hard enough.......etc. Works are not a requirement for baptism, belief is. 

You've been paying attention to anything I said here and on this forums, you would know of what I profess verily easily.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

so why is it that you couldn't just say this in the first place instead of arguing with me that one must "work" ? 

I am not arguing with you, but when I profess something you seem to get irked up quickly. Clearly one who is building up in their faith in professing, which pertains to baptism and observance of God's Word.

You are merely adding to me words when you keep assuming works over belief, and faith being a requirement. Even by own comments on previous threads negates your claim to evidence of absolutely nothing.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Is it because you just can't bring yourself to admit I was correct? Works for baptism IS UNBIBLICAL. 

How are you correct if you can't even bring up any of my responses pertaining to such? IF I stated time and time again one seeks baptism on his or her own accord, why push what I say into something entirely different? You keep trending your heels on baptismal regeneration against someone who is, and has been against it for years.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Just stop with your strawman "baptismal regeneration", no one said it. 

Did you not equate my responses to baptism being a requirement when I professed that people seek baptism? Anyone who believes in baptism a requirement, or a total necessary means are supports of baptismal regeneration. Because you seem unaware of this term, I did you the favor of linking it here:

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

I mean, a dead giveaway would be the fact I do not adhere to spurious and or unauthentic Bible verses whereas those who support Baptismal regeneration uses spurious text to support baptism as an absolute requirement. Not to mention the last discussion which you wanted to discuss regarding salvation.

That being said, again, if someone does not support baptismal regeneration, stop tooting the horn for it because it will give you nothing in return.

And no, no strawmans here, but the ignorance shows in regards to those of Christendom who actually do support such things; not me, because to quote you I, as well as the church, sees it as

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

UNBIBLICAL

That being said, A strawman is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

Here we see you, making claims of baptism as a requirement in regards to my responses that shed no such thing. Baptism as a necessary means of salvation and or an absolute requirement is Baptismal Regeneration, which is the belief that baptism is necessary for salvation, or, more precisely, that regeneration does not occur until a person is water baptized (they also believe babies, who cannot speak or obverse God's Word, can be baptism too, in regards to guilty of sin).

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44 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Acts 2:37-38

More of building one up and so forth. There are some Christians who believe faith over works and all that whereas a specific group avoids reading into Acts 1 and 2.

In this sense, when one learns about God and they seek him, they will take into account what Jesus had told his disciples, when he says that we must take in knowledge of the one True God.

  • John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Some denominations believe that baptism is the only way one can be saved, hence Shiwiii's misinformed response. The truth of the matter is one makes this decision on their own, yes at times, they can be encouraged, however, that choice is for them to make with God, should they want to make a declaration known in this sense, and going about following the teachings of the teacher, Christ Jesus.

Knowledge of what we read from the Scriptures, to take in everything in full context, we must read, obverse and meditate it, build up wisdom, which is indeed like treasures, and like how the Jews did for their young, we pass on this knowledge to the people, men, women and children, even to our household, and so forth.

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8 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

obverse and meditate it

Stop saying "obverse" which means "the opposite or counterpart of a fact or truth."

You mean "observe". This is a critical error in a discussion like this.

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14 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Stop saying "obverse" which means "the opposite or counterpart of a fact or truth."

You mean "observe". This is a critical error in a discussion like this.

My bad, typed too fast. But yes, observe and meditate.

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@Space Merchant How fast is your words per minute? Back on subject. I see what you are saying about Baptism being a requirement vs. people who make the decision to be baptized. I just googled baptismal regeneration because I didn't know that was a heavily discussed term.

You also make point about the origin of baptism, so from there the view you have is mostly clear.

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1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Acts 2:37-38 +Acts 26:20

It's always Acts. I remember there was a guy who went on a rant, jumping up and down in total rage about it lol. 🤣

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@Equivocation Faithful Word Baptist Church Pastor Steven L. Anderson. He is also a fundamentalist pertaining to mainstream Christendom ideologies. This guy had quite a few words to say about Biblical Unitarians that only come back to bite him in the end.

Quote

21103556_10212707215707344_979735806_o.j

It is not just verses in Acts that irks this man.

Full context in regards to baptism, yes?

Other than that baptismal regeneration is not such an unknown term, for it relates to those in support of baptism requirement in which what pertains to what that doctrine consist of. Clearly if one is seeking to be baptized and makes this decision on their accord, it does not relate to or conflict with the latter belief. Also, one has to take into account those that never got the chance to or have yet sought baptism, ending up in a situation, loss of life, etc. Which is why we have the example of the thief who was crucified and was hung next to Jesus. Drawing context from Jesus' interaction with him, and his interaction with the command he gave, clearly the support of baptismal regeneration isn't there as some denominations would have you believe.

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

the support of baptismal regeneration isn't there

Baptismal regeneration is just another of the pompous terms giiven by apostates to a distorted interpretation of scripture presented as a "doctrine". It is not a bilble teaching.

Baptism is a necessary part of the action of anyone  wishing to come into an approved relationship with Jehovah through his Son Jesus Christ of course. But it is an act that, whilst directed by Jesus Christ (Matt.28:19) and therefore essential, has a symbolic significance and does nothing in a physical way to the individual. Peter made that clear at 1Pet.3:21.

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19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, what I said exactly is the following:

When a person has been studying the word diligently, becoming hearers of the word and embraces it, they will most likely seek baptism on their own accord, and as stated before, in doing so, they accept the teachings of the teacher, Lord Christ Jesus (Acts 2:38, 41).

The verse in question regarding encouragement in this domain

[38] And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [41] So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Right, and look at it. Does the verse you mention state that anyone needs to study to become baptized? No it doesn't, but you made the statement and I disagreed.

 

 

No one is questioning this part of your statement:

 

19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Bible encourages us to obverse and study.

I just disagree that one needs to study to become baptized. The Bible does not state that one must study to be baptized, and thus the idea that a person would need to, is unbiblical. 

 

I'm not going to keep going around in circles and obscure definitions with you,  I stated my point very clear. You seem to dislike that, so what. 

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8 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Keep on seeking.....................

ahh I see, no problem. IF you ever do want to explain, I'll listen and respond. 

 

 

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On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

Right, and look at it.

Ok, I am looking.

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

Does the verse you mention state that anyone needs to study to become baptized?

Context of passage of Peter's sermon shows us that the people heard the teachings of the Christ that day, others, who were present were already students of God's Word. Clearly, one who hears takes up wisdom of all things concerning the Christ and his God, hence why when it came to baptism, water immersion, which is a public declaration in this sense, proves otherwise.

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

No it doesn't, but you made the statement and I disagreed.

I really do not care if you agree with me, I agree to what the Bible says and what lessons and examples we as Christians draw from it. My response is based purely on biblical hermeneutics, as is with most of my comments when it comes to explaining something or someone.

Acts 2:38, or the passage itself gives context of what you are reading. For we know that those at Pentecost are Christians, embracing on what was being professed to them regarding the Christ, the references in connection to that verse (or verses), as well as the helper of whom was promised. Not only the people were baptized regarding repentance of sin, but they were baptized in Christ.

Simon Peter, when professing the inspired sermon, the teachings to the people heed the command of the Christ, the same verse you yourself said we are to follow since it was Jesus who gave this command (Matthew 28:19), and in this history of early Christianity, God’s people would seek repentance and be baptized in the name of God's Son, Jesus Christ, for forgiveness of sins, such echos back to John the Baptist, hence references. It is known that at this point in time that the Jews had rejected the Messiah, God’s Christ and by means of repenting and exercising faith in the Christ, one is capable of seeking and receiving forgiveness from God, granted that the New Covenant was already in effect. Public declaration as mentioned of such faith by being immersed in water in the name of Jesus Christ.

Christians today applies what is learned in the passage of Acts 2 and understand what Simon Peter conveyed when he talked to those at Pentecost, who were of the Church of the Christ. These people knew what they were being taught and applied it; they heard it, no doubt. Moreover, the Holy Spirit, the helper, was poured to the people, inspired them, 120 persons who are disciples, later that day, thousands more, who accepted the teachings of the Christ and understood said teaches concerning about the very person of whom God made both Lord and Christ, according to Peter (32, 36). Such ones show a public declaration of faith by being immersed in water in the name of Jesus Christ, their teacher (death unto life), not to mention that such ones were like pupils, students concerning God’s Word; reading The Coming of the Holy Spirit (1-13) should have been obvious to you, let alone the references in connection to passage.

Christians today applies what is read in Acts 2, especially when it comes to Peter's Sermon at Pentecost (14-41). Peter knew very well what Jesus had taught and these teachings were presented to the people in the city, and said teachings was conveyed to those who sought baptism after hearing and accepting the sound truth about the Christ. Likewise, for us, like the early Christians of Pentecost, we too can accept the truth of the Christ by hearing and learning about all and everything that Jesus had taught, mainly when it came to the good news gospel and the Messianic Age, said teachings professed by the Christians of that day. This is why when I said we are to study the word, it is in relation to the teachings of Christ Jesus, for when it comes to becoming his servant, his follower, his disciple, we are to fully understand what he says, what he commands, and we make disciples by teaching what the Christ has taught unto the people who hears the word, in doing so, like our Eunuch friend, such ones can embrace the message concerning the Christ, and in doing so, they make declaration to the Church of the Christ, and glorify God, rejoice in such as well. Such efforts will enable such ones to do what those 120 persons have done.

That being said, clearly those at Pentecost knew what they were conveying afterwards, and what they had been teaching to the people, vice versa, what the people were learning and accepting from them. A follower of the Christ understands the teachings, mainly when it comes to those who has that chance.

The promise is to us, after all.

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

No one is questioning this part of your statement:

And yet when something is said, suddenly you wanted a verse with that exact mention of something when clearly the context is being drawn from such verse.

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

I just disagree that one needs to study to become baptized.

Concerning what Jesus taught, according to you, how does one convey if they is no need to study, read, observe, etc? Example regarding Jesus in his childhood, he read, studied, recited, and observed the laws found in the Old Testament because in doing so, he, as with all Jews, learned about the God of Israel. Why is it suddenly different according to you about those of the New Covenant; Christians?

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

The Bible does not state that one must study to be baptized, and thus the idea that a person would need to, is unbiblical. 

So what would you say in regards to those being hearers of the word? actually disciples and students of God's Word in Bible times, especially those at Pentecost?

How would the early Christians teach and preach the good news gospel and the Messianic Age if they did not understand or observed what the teachings were to begin with?

Taking in wisdom is indeed biblical not. So if Jesus urges us to take in knowledge by coming to know the True God is wrong? Let alone what was said about taking in accurate knowledge? Trying to understand you.

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

I'm not going to keep going around in circles and obscure definitions with you

Obscure definitions?

On 3/15/2019 at 2:04 PM, Shiwiii said:

I stated my point very clear. You seem to dislike that, so what. 

You haven't really brought much here. In short you are having an issue with the taking in of wisdom concerning God and the Christ. Unless you can make your point clearer on how does one heed command from Jesus to know who God is and who he [Jesus] is if they do not hear any sort of teaching, or read and obverse anything from Scripture?

Jesus put high importance in observing the word hence why we have the foremost commandments, and by reading and understanding, we understand why he holds such this high and why we as Christians must apply such.

No, it is not that I dislike what you are saying, rather not much has come from you thus far, but I am speaking from what the Bible conveys here to which you are calling unbiblical, not to mention that random assumptions and accusations when there is no evidence of such, and the lowkey no mentions for what was talked about before i.e. The Eunuch.

That being said, if you have some points to make, then do so, aside from that, I speak on what the Bible says regarding those who are in union with the Christ and what they've done, in which we as Christians today can emulate and apply.

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On 3/15/2019 at 4:23 AM, Outta Here said:

Baptismal regeneration is just another of the pompous terms giiven by apostates to a distorted interpretation of scripture presented as a "doctrine". It is not a bilble teaching.

Baptism is a necessary part of the action of anyone  wishing to come into an approved relationship with Jehovah through his Son Jesus Christ of course. But it is an act that, whilst directed by Jesus Christ (Matt.28:19) and therefore essential, has a symbolic significance and does nothing in a physical way to the individual. Peter made that clear at 1Pet.3:21.

I can't tell you how many debates I had regarding this. Such ones turn it into something else and quick to point the figure on your stance on baptism vs. that of mainstream Christendom. A dead giveaway would be the baptism of infant babies, which was never commanded to the church of the Christ to do, for the word and the teachings is for those who can hear it, who can understand it and who can apply it in terms of wisdom and knowledge.

Yes I notice you mentioned Acts 26:20. In short, one must turn to God, to be close with him. The person who seeks to be close to God our Father must be genuine in their repentance, so he, or she must put forth effort in said repentance willfully, the action of one changing themselves, in a way, out with the old, in with the new. Apostle Paul is a great example, for we know his history, his actions and later on, him being the very man to move people to be a follower of the Christ, to move people to knowing who sent Jesus. When Paul professed the good news gospel and the things concerning the teachings, it enables people to be moved by what they heard, hearing it and making the necessary changes to let go of what is old in themselves, and bring forth what is new.

That being said, all things concerning baptism, it is good to understand the context of references for such gives more insight on such things, even with what is being discussed.

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17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

I agree to what the Bible says

then show me where one must study for baptism. 

 

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Concerning what Jesus taught, according to you, how does one convey if they is no need to study, read, observe, etc? Example regarding Jesus in his childhood, he read, studied, recited, and observed the laws found in the Old Testament because in doing so, he, as with all Jews, learned about the God of Israel. Why is it suddenly different according to you about those of the New Covenant; Christians?

this is right out of the wt playbook. So if Jesus studied, then it is a command to study for baptism? 

Did Jesus own a cat when He was growing up? Does that then require us to raise cats? 

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

So what would you say in regards to those being hearers of the word? actually disciples and students of God's Word in Bible times, especially those at Pentecost?

How would the early Christians teach and preach the good news gospel and the Messianic Age if they did not understand or observed what the teachings were to begin with?

Taking in wisdom is indeed biblical not. So if Jesus urges us to take in knowledge by coming to know the True God is wrong? Let alone what was said about taking in accurate knowledge? Trying to understand you.

no one said that we are not to study! 

It just isn't a requirement for baptism. 

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, if you have some points to make, then do so, aside from that, I speak on what the Bible says regarding those who are in union with the Christ and what they've done, in which we as Christians today can emulate and apply.

I've already said it. re-read my posts, or rather this one and maybe you'll see my point. I doubt it though.

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On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

then show me where one must study for baptism. 

Regarding baptism the Bible tells us to take in knowledge, I had already made a response to that.

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

this is right out of the wt playbook.

Playbook?

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

So if Jesus studied, then it is a command to study for baptism? 

Yes, Jesus did study, for the law he was born into he, and all of his people had to read and observe, recite, study, and pray, all things in regards to taking in knowledge of the God of Israel, Yahweh. Jesus even acknowledged said Law to those that asked him as read in Mark 12.

Jesus told us to take in knowledge of the True God who sent him.

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

By taking in wisdom of God, people indeed examine Scripture, people will learn of who God is and what he had done, and will also come to understand of who Jesus Christ is and what role he has in God's Purpose and Will. Concerning Baptism, those who hear God's Word come to take in wisdom and understand it, and it is concerning those who seek baptism themselves by their choice to make said declaration to God. For Jesus came and spoke God's Word giving us insight on who he is, to which we examine and accept as truth.

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

Did Jesus own a cat when He was growing up?

I beg your pardon?

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

Does that then require us to raise cats? 

Again with the requirements, but only this time a feeble example.

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

no one said that we are not to study! 

We are to take in wisdom and examine God's Word. I suggest you look up what the word actually is and its definition: 

    Hello guest!

So tell me this, when it comes to learning and understanding God what do you do?

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

It just isn't a requirement for baptism. 

No one says that it is an absolute requirement. The response regarding baptism is the fact that people take in knowledge of God's Word, learning about him, especially those who seek baptism, those who heard God's Word.

On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, Shiwiii said:

I've already said it. re-read my posts, or rather this one and maybe you'll see my point. I doubt it though.

What you said primarily is that this or that is unbiblical. I have read your responses, I haven't ignored or left anything out if I made a response to each part.

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      By Guest Nicole
    • By Witness
      Each year in mid-summer the two little bergs in my area swell to the bursting point for a period of two short two days.  Ordinarily, the total count of inhabitants within a 15-mile range is less than 500 people.  But during what is called, the “Death Ride”, the entire county becomes a swarming nest of thousands of people and bicycles, along the major roads that traverse up the mountain passes in the area.  Many of its contestants spend every spare moment preparing for this race, and once the hint of warmth arrives in the spring, local bicyclers begin appearing along the highways in preparation for the big day. 
      For those who participate in the race, they live fully for the moment they succeed in reaching their goal of traversing their choice of 1, 2, or up to 5 mountain passes, and up to 129 miles. Everyone is a winner, according to the goal they individual set for themselves.   Even though it is considered a “killer”, the Death Ride is enjoyed for its momentary exhilarating challenge and pristine mountain setting. After this grueling bike race finishes, life returns to normal for local residents.
      Last summer, the JWs convention was entitled “Don’t Give Up” and showed a runner on the invitation to attend, which was distributed worldwide.  This year’s circuit assembly topics are “Don’t Give Up Doing What is Fine” and “Don’t Give up in Fulfilling the Law of Christ”.  What is the underlying drive behind these titles?  Well, a few days ago a JW revealed the true “race” that Watchtower members are participating in.  Within his statement, he included  “….brothers and sister that serve the org.….”    JWs, is the endurance of your faith measured by the selective avenues of the “race” you participate in when serving the organization; such as qualifying as a pioneer, or making all the meetings, or striving to be an elder, or serving at Bethel?  Do you believe reaching out to meet such goals is a ‘fine thing’, and your preaching work fulfills the law of Christ?  Ironically, this is exactly what your dedication at baptism expects of you.
      A new Watchtower magazine (3/2018) addresses baptism, just in time for this year’s upcoming summer convention.  It focuses on potential candidates but especially targets children; preparing them for the ritualistic baptism into the organization.  You must be aware, JWs, of Watchtower’s spurious and hypocritical teachings regarding this critical step, which they promulgate as entering the race leading to eternal life. 
      Watchtower quote: “Yes, it seems that hundreds of his followers were present when Jesus gave the commission to make disciples. Jesus thus revealed that baptism would be a requirement for those who accept the yoke of Christian discipleship. ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Anyone who wished to serve God ACCEPTABLY would have to acknowledge and accept Jesus’ role in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. After doing so, that person could get baptized. THIS WOULD BE THE ONLY WATER BAPTISM HAVING GOD’S APPROVAL."
      Let that sink in a moment.  One’s dedication to God must not be enhanced in any form, by additional words of men, or it loses God’s approval by transgressing His purpose, and the law of Christ. 
      As the magazine states: “After all, it is each individual’s dedication, baptism, and FAITHFUL SERVICE TO GOD that will bring him in line for being MARKED FOR SALVATION during the coming great tribulation.” — Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Par 16
      At one time many years ago, the organization followed scriptural direction when baptizing individuals, but since 1985 the questions had been altered to include dedicating oneself to the organization. Yes, deceitful men have added a footnote to your acknowledgments of Watchtower’s pagan ritual.    Under the article’s topic, “Baptism, Requirement for Christians” it addresses the first question only, asked of each candidate:
      “On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?”
      It then quotes Matt 16:24 “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me”.
      What does it mean to pick up our “torture stake” and follow Christ?
       Pearl Doxsey’s article entitled “Dedication – Happiness” states:
      “Imagine that you hear, or read on the news,
      that a race is approaching which guarantees the winner a prize of unlimited wealth, health, a removal of all life's problems, and happiness. ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).

      You also learn that your father greatly desires for you to have this prize, due to his love for you ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). He promises to contribute his own resources to support you, guaranteeing success (should you accept the challenge) ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  A;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).

      But then the race is described to you. It is grueling, long, and perilous ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).
      It will demand tremendous dedication, self-control, endurance, and sacrifice ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).

      Does the race lead to short-term happiness? Certainly not!
      But then what if you heard that winning is possible and that everyone who crosses the finish line, wins? ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )

      For those chosen by God ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), this race also includes accepting an assignment of work ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). That work must be done during the race. In addition, all runners must deal with an opposer and his cohorts, who constantly do all they can to make the road to the finish, impossible ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ). (4womaninthewilderness)
       
      When an individual joins the organization, the “race” one enters is not based on a dedication to Christ or the Father, but on serving an organization, which was made clear by the JW’s comment above.  However, Watchtower calls it, serving God; and they do it thusly:
      “When presenting themselves for baptism, such new disciples confirm that they have disowned themselves and are determined to serve God with all their strength, means, and abilities. ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) FOR THESE REASONS, BAPTISM CANDIDATES ARE ASKED TO CONFIRM THAT THEY HAVE DEDICATED THEMSELVES TO JEHOVAH TO DO HIS WILL.”
      How is this asked of JWs?  The second question not mentioned in the article to the unknowing candidates is:
      “Do you understand that your dedication and baptism IDENTIFY you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with GOD’S SPIRIT-DIRECTED ORGANIZATION? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."
      Simply, this type of water baptism does not have God’s approval, but God’s condemnation.  I hope you can perceive this, JWs. Watchtower’s allegations go beyond Christ’s words, expecting your devotion to another Master.  Matt 6:24; Deut 4:2; 12:32; Rev 22:18   Please, notice how you are “marked”, not for survival but for slavery to men and their self-driven desires for unrighteous gains.  Jer 17:10-13 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      From the 1950 Watchtower publication, “This Means Everlasting Life”:  “When a justified believer is baptized into the “body of Christ” and so becomes a member of the Theocratic organization, he comes under Christ Jesus the Head and so comes under certain responsibilities and cannot act independently of the one whom God as made Head of the organization to direct it.  HE MUST SUBMIT HIMSELF TO ORGANIZATION INSTRUCTIONS…”  p. 126
      I am appalled at these words I have come across.  They admit to the early beginnings of the “trampling” of the Temple of God – the anointed priesthood and Body of Christ. Matt 24:15;Dan 9:27;11:31; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3   Watchtower’s “theocratic organization” empowers a false priesthood to demand obedience to itself, as a “god”.  It is the counterfeit to the Body of Christ – the Body of Satan. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
       Pearl Doxsey – “The GB has laid a new foundation for themselves...
      They have made themselves the cornerstone ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), being benefactor to a NON-anointed Organization of counterfeit priests ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )...
      creating a foreign temple to a "foreign god" ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ).
      They have erected a counterfeit Mt. Zion ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ;  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ), ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )
      and a decoy "Kingdom" while Satan yet rules.”
      (From “Discerning the Body-A God of Order”)  4womaninthewilderness
      Please, I ask you to consider, JWs; that you, and the authentic, anointed Body of Christ, have picked up the wrong torture stake.  Not until it is realized what “mark” you bear, does the real torture stake then present itself.  Your “opposer and cohorts” will come into focus, if you choose to enter the authentic race leading to life. Jer 17:1;  Rev 13:1,3,4,10-17; Exod 20:1-7; Luke 4:8 
      The race JWs presently run, their comparative “torture stake” in a “spiritual paradise”, is soon to come to an abrupt, and tumultuous end.   1 Thess 5:3; Rev 6:12-17; 8:8; Zech 4:7; Job 9:5,6; 14:18-22
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      (Mark of Slavery 4womaninthewilderness)
      I wrote down these thoughts just this morning when reading James chapter 1:  
      When we wake up to Wt.’s deceptions, mulling over in our minds how to deal with them; we have two choices; to either step onto the course leading to life by slaving only for God, or settle with our conscience and continue running Wt’s categorized routes, explicitly showing faith in the organization as salvation.   Deut 6:6,8; 11:18; Exod 13:9  When this choice is apparent, it is then that the Beast/org.’s threatening stance looming over us, is perceived.  Can we bear being called a “loser” by the Beast and everyone we love if we draw out of the race? Matt 5:11; Rev 11:7;13:15  Who really is it, that loses out on eternal life?  
      Tonight, I find this comment regarding a JW “sighing and crying over the detestable things” in the organization (Ezek 9:3,4):
      “Whoever the bozo is that wants to quit...go ahead and do it loser. You are "already gone"
      “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST (organization) AND ITS IMAGE, (spirit-directed “Jehovah’s organization) OR FOR ANYONE WHO RECEIVES THE MARK OF ITS NAME.” 
      This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who KEEP HIS COMMANDS AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO JESUS.”  Rev 14:9-12
      “Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.”  James 1:12
      “You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.  For, ‘In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.’
      38 And, ‘But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.’  39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.” Heb 10:36-39
       
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      In the Gospels we find John the Baptist baptizing people in the Jordan River. But where did the concept of Baptism originate? Was this a command from God that we are not told about? Did John develop the concept of Baptism? Was baptism being done before the New Testament? Why was John baptizing people in the Jordan River? Because the Bible is silent on these issues, Churches have created their own doctrines concerning baptism.
    • By Queen Esther
      3 very  young brothers baptized ?   Their smiles say it all
      Or  perhaps  they're  happy  about  the  new  booklets, before?
      *ORGANIZED  TO  DO  JEHOVAH'S  WILL*
      Whatever  for  the  next  time...  Congratulations!  and Jehovah's  blessing
    • By The Librarian
      Russian Orthodox ice water baptisms
       
       
      And they call JW’s “extremists”???
      Via
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Our brother is enjoying the moment with his parents after his baptism in Maui. 
       
       

    • Guest Nicole
    • By Outta Here
      This subject has arisen under another thread:
      As this issue takes the previous discussion off topic, a new question is asked here,
       
      see also:
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Our dear sister  lshe is happy to see her  mom and dad getting  baptized at the  Regional Convention, this makes her faith grow. 

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By Bible Speaks
      The set of Likasi is regional French-speaking, Democratic Republic of the Congo in Katanga province.. We welcomed 41 new baptized to an audience of about 2,000 people.   Es el conjunto de Likasi expresión francesa regional, República Democrática del Congo, en la provincia de Katanga. Dimos la bienvenida a 41 nuevos bautizados a una audiencia de cerca de 2.000 personas. Merci beaucoup M!
    • By Bible Speaks
      The set of Likasi is regional French-speaking, Democratic Republic of the Congo in Katanga province..
      We welcomed 41 new baptized to an audience of about 2,000 people.
      Es el conjunto de Likasi expresión francesa regional, República Democrática del Congo, en la provincia
      de Katanga. Dimos la bienvenida a 41 nuevos bautizados a una audiencia de cerca de 2.000 personas.
      Merci beaucoup M!
    • By Bible Speaks
      @yngbld6 shares with us: “My son Aaron, @the.8ran.15, giving his Mom and me a big hug after his baptism at the Regional Convention in Huntsville, Alabama, USA.”
    • By Jack Ryan
      Seven and nine year olds making a life long decision which could mean their families may kick them out of the house in their late teens and shun them.
       
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Baptize Witnesses Today -- Men of Jehovah's Witnesses leaving beach to wade into water about 300 feet out for baptism by immersion. Scene was Orchard beach in Bronx. June 21, 1958. (Photo by William N. Jacobellis/New York Post Archives / (c) NYP Holdings, Inc. via Getty Images)

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Minister of the Jehovah's Witnesses aid in the baptism of some of the 524 converts to the faith in a pool set up at Belmont Park Race Track. The baptism is a high-light of the four-day Witnesses Divine Sovereignty assembly, which ends tomorrow. August 08, 1975. (Photo by Nury Hernandez/New York Post Archives / (c) NYP Holdings, Inc. via Getty Images)
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