Baptism of Children by Jehovah's Witnesses

[Srecko Sostar]

On 2/5/2019 at 9:07 PM, Outta Here said:

People now began bringing him young children for him to touch them, but the disciples reprimanded them.

to touch them.... well, text speaking about touching children for blessings, not baptizing children.

dear Outta Here, wrong interpretation and misapplication of bible text, for sure. 

[Evacuated]

30 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

dear Outta Here, wrong interpretation and misapplication of bible text, for sure

Rubbish! You're outside the camp, under reprimand.....accept it!

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Because when a lot of them reach 16 they leave home and leave the JW Org. Kinda proves they are only in there because of pressure from parents. And some only get baptised because they have made some kind of 'deal' with parents to get other privileges at home... 

Oh come on please. How does this observation of the obvious show any kind of insight? They are just like you surely? Start off for whatever reasons, then fizzle out for whatever reasons. Just as the apostle John stated centuries ago.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It would be so lovely if it were possible to know how many JW's are under 16 years old. 

That would be interesting indeed. But not readily available. Maybe we can get at least something from the 2014 analysis someone did in USA? (I know you have some geographical partialities..............).

[JOHN BUTLER]

2014 was a long time ago regarding the Child Abuse issues. It has become mainstream news now so the Gb and it's Org lost that battle to keep it all secret. Hence a lot more people over 16 or 18 would have left the Org by now. And been replaced by 3 and 5 years olds it seems. 

Until last year I never really thought about how they count the amount of JW's in the Org. I just thought they kept numbers of all those that are baptised. However I read online somewhere that a 'prominent' JW said that the number of JW's is counted by the number of monthly reports going in. He said it was more important to count 'active' members than baptised members. Can't remember who said it as it wasn't important to me at the time. But now seeing all this about 3 and 5 years olds it does make me think how desperate the GB and the Org are. 

By the way, Srecko is right you completely miss the meaning of the scripture you used. The scripture is talking about adults lowering their pride and becoming like children. 

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” 

Jesus was usingthe young children as showing humility. But i don't expect you to understand that. 

@Outta Here  said "Rubbish! You're outside the camp, under reprimand.....accept it!"  

Wow see the humility there  NO................... Who is Srecko supposed to be 'under reprimand' by ? 

You see Outta Here, all that shows is you worship of the GB and it's JW Org. I see no signs that Srecko is not still a worshipper of God, therefore God, through Jesus Christ is judge, not you Outta Here.

Quote @Outta Here  "Oh come on please. How does this observation of the obvious show any kind of insight? They are just like you surely? Start off for whatever reasons, then fizzle out for whatever reasons. Just as the apostle John stated centuries ago."

Well no actually. Children born into JW families are forced to go to meetings and to 'pre-study' etc. It is difficult for parents and for the children. Meetings have gradually got shorter so it gets a bit easier of course. But assemblies are chaos, for parents and children alike. Please remember I had years in the JW Org, so I talk from some experience. Experience of seeing other parents struggling with children and having done so myself, with two families.... And having seen many teenagers leave the Org as soon as they were able.  

 

 

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I see no signs that Srecko is not still a worshipper of God, therefore God, through Jesus Christ is judge,

Which excludes your assessment no doubt.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Who is Srecko supposed to be 'under reprimand' by

Apart from the obvious Scriptural reprimand, there are admissions I have just noted to being an ex JW in Sreko Sostar postings which constitute the same. 

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Please remember I had years in the JW Org, so I talk from some experience

Of course you do. And your reaction to that experience is that you are now (happily I presume) an ex JW along with those others you refer to. Just as John said. 

I can't understand why you just can't seem to go on and enjoy your independent life along with those others.

Anyway, pardon me for turning to other topics for now. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Of course you do. And your reaction to that experience is that you are now (happily I presume) an ex JW along with those others you refer to. Just as John said. 

I can't understand why you just can't seem to go on and enjoy your independent life along with those others.

Perhaps he is trying to follow Christ’s path, and expose the lies and hypocrisy.  ❤️ Matt 3:1-3;John 8:44; 2 Cor 10:4-6

We don’t walk away “happy” from the organization. If your emotional and spiritual heart is ripped in two, it takes time to recover.  Matt 24:9,21, Luke 12:53  It takes time to start all over again, learning how we were stumbled, through scripture untainted by men’s doctrine.  It takes time to build a true relationship with the Father and Christ outside of men’s orchestrated doctrinal demands.  Eventually, faith and peace is achieved by understanding the true Shepherd is watching over his sheep, protecting them until he returns.  Matt 5:1-12; John 10:1-5; Luke 15:4-7

[TrueTomHarley]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:24 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So they count as JW's from age of 3 when they put in Report Slips, and they can get baptised from age of 5. How desperate the GB / JW Org is getting

You are not up to date in your sources of intelligence, John. Currently, all married sisters are required via “mind control” to visit their doctors each month. The moment a pregnancy is detected, the unborn is counted as a member. The mother is forced to study with her child and MUST shake her belly every 10 minutes to ensure that it does not nod off.

Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I read online somewhere that a 'prominent' JW said that the number of JW's is counted by the number of monthly reports going in. 

You could have just asked the Witness sitting next to you at your last meeting. Everyone knows this.

How many Witnesses there are depends on how you count. Should one count all those who are baptized? Meeting attenders? Memorial attenders? 

Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.

There is absolutely no incentive to ‘pump up the numbers,’ as you suggest. It would even be counterproductive to do so. And unnecessary. If the GB is as underhanded as you say, they could just double or treble the existing numbers, and order through “thought control” anybody who knows of it not to spill the beans.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

Number theology have two side.

First - number of members must be small, because that proves Bible words how very few will find  The Truth.

Second - number of members have to go up, to be bigger and bigger, because that proves how God giving His blessings on Church.  

:))

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley  You know you may even be a good author, it's the way you twist things and use sarcasm to try to hide the truth.

Are you calling Queen Esther a liar ? And Jack also ?   Isn't the proof being put in front of your own eyes ? 

But, there is none so blind as those that do not want to see.  Keep selling your books Tom it's all you are really interested in anyway. 

But I think you've shot yourself in the foot by admitting this :-

Quote : Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.

Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.

You have therefore confirmed what i said. Under 10 year olds can have a Field Service Report put in by their parents and it will be counted. And they start at 3 years old Tom. 

It's not about 'pumping up the numbers' Tom, it's about trying to hide how many are leaving the JW Org. 

Replacing the number of adults in the Org with children, by counting the children as proper JW's, and people outside will not know the difference. It's about 'show' Tom, and you know it. 

It's all a front. Pretending the JW Org is clean and pretending the JW Org has a healthy number of members. 

But it only works to fool those in the world that do not understand how bad the JW Org really is. 

[Space Merchant]

I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

[Shiwiii]

On 2/24/2019 at 5:01 AM, Space Merchant said:

I do not see why people take issue to a young one being baptized. As long as the young one has learnt about God, understand Scripture and a list of other things, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. This goes hand in hand with everything pertaining to the origin of baptism as a whole, and what John did in regards to what it represented other than forgiveness of sin, etc. There is a historical factor played into all of this.

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I think the reason why is because of how the wt holds it over the children in such a way that they are shunned if the child makes a mistake, as children usually do. This takes the authority away from the parents to teach and guide their children and gives it to the wt. Such a decision should not be made by children, but rather when they become adults and are fully informed of the repercussions of not following the company policy. 

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

as far as the origin of baptism as a whole, I do not recall of an instance of a child being baptized in the Bible. In fact Jesus Himself was not until He reached the age of 30, and since He is our guide and example, shouldn't we also adhere to His standard/example? 

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary, it isn't solely the Watchtower who profess baptism in this regard. Anyone, even that of a child, who has professed and applied teaches of the Scripture, dedicated to being a follower of the Christ and adhere to his God, etc. are able and willing. Young ones who do seek baptism understand this means, and it enables them do do more for God. You'd be surprise of how willing some children are to do God's Will just as many before them - I made this point months ago, and as such, still stands in accordance with Scripture.

After all, heed what was said, go ye therefore, and teach all nations.

Parents can still teach their children, as well as the church itself. Is this of an issue for you because such isn't alien in the realm of Christendom.

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in^[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Again, another misunderstanding of my words. Regarding the origin of Baptism itself, to be specific, as to the representation of the Jordan River, the symbolism behind it, when people has learnt about God, and clearly understand Scripture, he or she can be baptized should they seek it. I recall saying something along the lines before, regarding this, that in this regard, the follower is now following the teachings of this teacher, in turn, they are all not learning about God in unison, with new and old disciples; they all have a common goal as baptized brothers and sisters, in union with the Christ.

You do realize as to the symbolism regarding the people of Israel, do you not? Also in regards to Jesus yes, we do follow his example and the like, and it is not unknown to what he and all the Jews professed, from childhood into adulthood, in which both Mary and Joseph had taught him, in which Zechariah and Elizabeth had taught John.

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

We can teach our children to read and write, which is done by parents, guardians, older folk of the same blood, and those in educational and or teaching institutions. In this sense, we can teach our children, something of which I am very adamant about and had professed in a number of times. In regards to Jesus, when he was very young, his parents had taught him, in regards to the Law found in Deuteronomy, which is still professed today by many, we are to observe, recite, read, and learn who the God of Israel is, reasons why when Jesus professed Shema Yisrael it points back to the Law found in the Old Testament; this same Law of which even Paul professed in 1 Corinthians.

Education is always key, especially when it comes to spiritual education. By means of such, we can teach our children about God, as well as what is good and what is bad. All people have an opportunity to learn about God and be baptized, even children, who seek to learn and understand that God, literate enough to read Scripture, and to understand, they too can learn and be baptized.

Do not underestimate children who are capable of reading and understanding the Scriptures, just as God opened his hand to you, he does the same to children who seek to learn about him, to understand him, about his Son, and the Kingdom; in which what it will bring forth to mankind.

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences.