607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Witness said:

walking and teaching among all of God’s children in human form

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  

Jehovah's people are already being taught at our meetings ...  and Jehovah may use this same system in the new system.   An army of people are being added to the earthly domain of Jehovah's future government every day and are being taught individually by those who primarily have the promise of living for ever on EARTH as future subjects. No special anointed with special insight needed for this!!

Again - look what is happening on the ground....in reality - not fantasy...

Today - we are being prepared as future citizens - totally neutral and being taught to love one another and care for each other and to obey Jehovah. We are all taught the 'principles' of Jehovah and each individual knows what is expected from him. The problem is that we all  are living in a secular world and have to cope with secular problems all the time.  Many come from bad backgrounds and need time to unlearn some bad personal habits - but overall they do not become gross sinners and try not to be hurtful human beings or have hurtful practices towards others. (We all will be happy when the influence of satan and his demons are removed.)

There are a few renegades and they are set outside the congregation until they accept that they have sinned against Jehovah and hurt their fellows and try to change and cooperate with the teachings of Jehovah and the elders (Elders are a scriptural instruction - no need to give proof from the bible). 

Under Jehovah's government now we do not have police to keep everyone in check. Everyone is expected to obey from free will supported by the education they received individually and in the congregation. Those who overstep the lines (invisible barriers where one can harm another or self or disrespect Jehovah) are spoken with, but if their rebellion is serious - they need to face the consequences. 

All governments have police - we do not because we have already been EDUCATED SPIRITUALLY and as individuals we have all the materials needed to educate ourselves further.  In the new system - when the new scrolls open up, all will be educated in the same way - and all will be expected to obey by their own volition/free will. (no supervisors needed or special individual teachers).  Jehovah's government will deal directly with those who are a threat to others. 

After the 1000 years - the anointed and Jesus will no longer be in their positions as kings and priests. They will get new jobs. How will people on earth live?  Will they need police or supervisors?  NO.  They will experience total freedom like Adam had and live by their educated consciences - and their direct communication with Jehovah will be restored. In the 1000 years there will be a continuation of what is happening NOW - a continuation of the spiritual education (without satan around to cause problems) so that everyone can reach perfection.  All the needed provisions (spiritual food from the new scrolls will be provided/facilitated).... as Revelation indicates. Jehovah's spirit will be in abundance! And we will be free to communicate with him without the worldly pressures and agendas that crowd our lives now.

If one understands the Hebrew word for rule (as in Arabic)  - it is NOT the secular oppressive rule that we have seen in the worldly system past and present ......... it is closely related to the word "to give justice"... to judge (judge does not have the connection to punish - but to give justice).  Any creature who likes to control others is like satan.

All the resurrected ones on earth who have suffered will receive compensation and justice in this 1000 years.  All the lowly and those oppressed - who before were slaves... they will receive the benefits of total freedom with personal responsibility...  living in peace and harmony with others and NOT being dominated by any one else on anyone telling you what to do.  Obedience to Jehovah is ALWAYS a matter of conscious choice!  If everyone obeyed by conscious choice there would be no problems on earth at all.  If everyone cooperated willingly to instructions (without it being a law) we will have harmony and equity- (each person being appreciated for who they are). 

Those who decide at the final test as perfect people that they do not want to live under this government - will face consequences for their choices. If they choose like Adam - they will face the consequence of Adam.... however the number of people is undetermined now. 

So elders in the new world will NOT tell people what to do - they will be facilitators/serve.  The anointed ( 1kor 15) will have heavenly bodies with immortality. It is unnatural for heavenly bodies to materialize - only on special occasions did Jehovah instruct his angels to materialize and it was with at special occasions when his "purpose" was being directed. 

Romans 9:4 speaks of "sacred service" of the anointed.  Primarily they are the 'new heavens' spoken of..... with heavenly bodies . Their priestly duties will most probably be to facilitate the provisions and instructions for the forgiveness of sins.... If they do materialize it will be for a specific purpose because they are 'adopted sons' - like the other angels and they are a new creation with a new name (new heavenly position and function).  We do not see the angels amongst us do we?  Yet we know they are there and they are assisting the preaching and teaching work....

To give up their heavenly bodies will be to give up their separateness as a priestly nation - a special possession - set aside for Jehovah.   Their new jobs are not completely defined in the bible.  All we know is that their work will be rewarding and important....1Peter 2 they will offer up spiritual sacrifices through Christ. Hebrews 8:5 indicates the priesthood of Moses to be a "shadow" of the sacred service in 'heaven' - heavenly things.

They will facilitate/oversee the teaching of the word of Jehovah... and the important function of judging and seeing that righteous 'decisions' are made and Jehovah's righteous law is enforced throughout the earth - almost like the boardroom in a company. Jehovah's spirit will be in full operation so he will facilitate communication between heaven and earth as he has done in the past. Many resurrected ones may have problems adapting etc.... so the 144000 will have an important job to facilitate justice and mercy.  They have enough experience as imperfect people.

The anointed may be visible during Armageddon but this cannot be taught as a fact. We know that angels destroyed 185,000 troops of Sennacherib and he himself thought it was pestilence - no-one saw the angels (Israel ot the Assyrians did not) but they saw the results!  The bible does also speak of natural signs.... so people will not be in the dark as to who is bringing the destruction especially after they start to attack Jehovah's people in the entire globe!

Moses was a priest - he called to Jehovah and interceded for israel - their intercessionary work will also be the facilitation of justice and mercy.  Moses heard many cases until it was given to 70 elders.   

The elders are an institution - given in the bible - they are shepherds and facilitators for the congregations... servants... of others. They are now being trained (and will still need a lot of training like all the others) if they are to be used in futue.  The higher you want to be in Jehovah's organization the humbler one should become..... this is what the bible teaches... no need to quote all the scriptures.

[Arauna]

Allan and all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

Emmanuel Velikovsky became known in 1950 and after him there were many authors who revised the Egyptian timeline and other Middle eastern timelines...  Read his history under the link above.   Since then there have been many good scholars who reject the timelines of all middle east and Egyptian chronology. ..... but they are outcasts amongst the rest of the fraternity. 

[Anna]

Will someone post page 208?

[Ann O'Maly]

@scholar JW

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Will someone post page 208?

[Ann O'Maly]

Arauna and all:

Quote

Velikovsky's ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions. Moreover, scholars view his unorthodox methodology (for example, using comparative mythology to derive scenarios in celestial mechanics) as an unacceptable way to arrive at conclusions. Stephen Jay Gould^[34] offered a synopsis of the mainstream response to Velikovsky, writing, "Velikovsky is neither crank nor charlatan—although, to state my opinion and to quote one of my colleagues, he is at least gloriously wrong ... Velikovsky would rebuild the science of celestial mechanics to save the literal accuracy of ancient legends." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky#Criticism

See also:

Astronomical Pseudo-Science: A Skeptic's Resource List: 7. Immanuel Velikovsky and Worlds in Collision

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I think I read this book circa 1962, in Jr. High School, and don't remember much, except that the PROOFS were so sloppy as to make the book almost unreadable. It was in Paperback..  I remember it as being fair quality Science Fiction.

[Arauna]

Valekowski  - he started the trend to look closer at the dates......  Many came after him...

[Anna]

On 1/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, scholar JW said:

Dates are not essential for salvation but accurate knowledge leading to Wisdom is a most worthy spiritual pursuit.as I am sure you appreciate.

Yes I do, but you do realize not everyone has the opportunity to study chronology for themselves, I mean really study. Not only that, but going to original sources for this kind of research is not really encouraged by the Slave.

On 1/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, scholar JW said:

I omitted Gerard Gertoux not because he is a competent Chronologist but because his Witness status is uncertain and he has been publicly vague on this point. If I remember correctly he stated that as he was a PhD candidate he did not want his Thesis compromised in any way so has minimized his activity. Perhaps I should have mentioned his name as follows: Gerard Gertoux?

Of course we both know that Gerard does not support 607. I assume you are not mentioning that aspect because that would only confirm what I said before; Witnesses are judged by whether they believe in 607 or not. 

The fact is he WAS a witness at one time but as you say, his present status is uncertain. But why are we doubting his Witness status in the first place? Why does the fact that he does not support 607 automatically change his status from being a brother to maybe not being a brother?

[scholar JW]

Anna

19 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes I do, but you do realize not everyone has the opportunity to study chronology for themselves, I mean really study. Not only that, but going to original sources for this kind of research is not really encouraged by the Slave

1

Yes, I do realize that most do not have the opportunity and resources to study Chronology in-depth. However, the Society has published much on the subject over the decades sufficient for most needs. WT Chronology, unlike all other schemes, has the distinct advantage of simplicity so it does lie within the reach of all the brotherhood.

 

23 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course we both know that Gerard does not support 607. I assume you are not mentioning that aspect because that would only confirm what I said before; Witnesses are judged by whether they believe in 607 or not. 

The fact is he WAS a witness at one time but as you say, his present status is uncertain. But why are we doubting his Witness status in the first place? Why does the fact that he does not support 607 automatically change his status from being a brother to maybe not being a brother

Indeed, Gertoux does not support 607 this but this in itself should not reflect on his status as a Witness for he is entitled to have a personal opinion on most matters. and he should not be adversely judged because of this. He may or may not be an active Witness but that is a matter for him and him alone.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Ann O Maly

To all thus interested:

Would someone please post page 208 of Brown's Eventide and give Ann some peace. I could but am not disposed to at this moment because I am concerned about Ann's postings on this subject and her apparent bias against the WT scholars not wishing to add 'fuel to the fire'.

scholar JW

[Anna]

On 1/3/2018 at 10:05 AM, Arauna said:

On 1/2/2018 at 2:09 PM, Anna said:

 

Arauna: Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile times

Anna: How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.

 

My FEELINGS are - you are wrong.  Most know how we get there but have more to do with their time than spend days in front of their computers in forums like this trying to score points for themselves..... because this is not edifying to anyone but the persons who think they can discredit the slave...  it is not purely an academic exercise - do not be fooled!..

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"

In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.

On 1/3/2018 at 10:05 AM, Arauna said:

I recall when this subject came up before under another heading  these same people themselves did not know that the JW's use 537 BCE as the pivotal date to get to 607 BCE .... the conversation fizzled out after this was proven to them......just to be opened up later again with more virulent compulsion.

I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.

On 1/3/2018 at 10:05 AM, Arauna said:

I am not here to score points but I wish to show there is more to 1914 than just a date - the history on the ground is completely ignored by these people who try to prove the slave to be deceivers and they use any minute discrepancy to do so to their advantage.... without considering their own discrepancies.... and this shines a light on their motive..

I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:

"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".

Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign

On 1/3/2018 at 10:05 AM, Arauna said:

There are many feelings attached to this date - it presents much more than a date.  Many here  promote only the knowledge without a love for Jehovah - so it has no meaning to them - just an academic exercise. 

To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.

On 1/3/2018 at 10:05 AM, Arauna said:

And yet these very people ignore the signs on the ground which has so much emotional meaning for those awaiting this final stretch of time.  The history on the ground since 1914 is what helps the "simple folk out there - the Amaharets" - without the academic inclinations, to lift their heads up. They are the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus loves.... and sustains with his spirit.

I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.

Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?

 

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Ann O Maly

To all thus interested:

Would someone please post page 208 of Brown's Eventide and give Ann some peace. I could but am not disposed to at this moment because I am concerned about Ann's postings on this subject and her apparent bias against the WT scholars not wishing to add 'fuel to the fire'.

scholar JW

You are 'not disposed' to post it. As I said before, this is telling.

As long as you refuse to produce it, we cannot verify whether your claim is true. As far as we are concerned, for the purposes of this line of discussion, p. 208 doesn't exist. We will have to rely on the testimony that is available, namely, the excerpts of Brown's Even Tide that are accessible online and which show that you, and the Proclaimers book, erred.