607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Arauna]

times and a half" or 1260 (lunar or 'Mohammedan') years with Luke 21's Gentile times (p. vii, xi, etc.).   Well - the Bible also used lunar years,  so why call it Mohammedan?  All the planting in Israel was done according to the Lunar calendar and they watched the moon to see when the festivals should be.  It was their way of counting time just as the nations around them did.  The only difference was - they were not allowed to blow kisses at the moon or worship the moon like the pagans around them did.

[Anna]

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

16 hours ago, Anna said:

How many friends that you know actually do this??

How many worldly people do this? 

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

I always ask:  why am I doing this?  or this other person doing this?  This is why I ask the questions here on this forum when I see scriptures being misapplied or so much credence given to secular material (that is not proven to be infallible) and this held up to discredit the dates given by the slave and therefore the entire "administration" of Jehovah throughout the ages being called into question.  

I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile time

How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.... the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak..... 

Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.

So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.

(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

[scholar JW]

Anna

My previous comments on Chronology must be read in context. The subject is complex but beneficial for all as anyone can at least know the dates and how these are determined without being bogged down with technicalities so it is adaptable to one's level of understanding. Dates are not essential for salvation but accurate knowledge leading to Wisdom is a most worthy spiritual pursuit.as I am sure you appreciate.

I omitted Gerard Gertoux not because he is a competent Chronologist but because his Witness status is uncertain and he has been publicly vague on this point. If I remember correctly he stated that as he was a PhD candidate he did not want his Thesis compromised in any way so has minimized his activity. Perhaps I should have mentioned his name as follows: Gerard Gertoux?

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Anne O Maly

Let us be perfectly clear on this matter. I have to hand a large red manilla folder which contains my correspondence both by mail and email to the WT Society in Brooklyn, Carl Jonsson and Raymond Franz all to do with the italicized statement made in the Proclaimers book. I wrote twice to Bethel seeking clarification of this dispute, the first letter, ECE:ECP April 13, 1998 which gave me the source for the quotation and the second letter , ECM:ECH March 11, 1999 came with 2 photocopied pages, p, 135 and 208 from Brown's book along with a photocopy of the title page showing the vol. number and date of publication; vol.2, 1823. It was noted that the connection is found on page 208 wherein the connection is clearly and easily identified. This page contains 2 paragraphs in portion, the first par. mentions the 'seven times' of Daniel and the very next par. contains the quotation of Luke 21:24 so a connection between the two is plain. 

Previously, I had received from COJ copies of some pages from Brown's book which purported to show the Society's error but these revealed no such thing and that is why I wrote to Bethel. The letter from COJ is dated Jan. 12,1998. Subsequent emails from COJ on this matter showed COJ trying to defend his position quibbling over the nature of the connection but this too was foolishness and I was left wondering about COJ's level of comprehension.

Further, I had written to both James Penton and Raymond Franz about the matter because they were part of the group of editors who wrote the Foreword to the Gentile Times Reconsidered, first published in 1983. Penton did not reply but Franz did and he simply referred the matter to COJ for comment. Franz had in fact supported the Society's position as shown in his Crisis Of Conscience, 1994, 2nd edn.p.367 yet he in a email dated September 24, 2003 he chastised me and the Society for sloppy research and failing to properly understand Brown's description of the prophetic periods.

In short, whatever the nature of the connection it is left up to the reader to decide its relationship and I believe that COJ made a serious error in accusing the Society in such a dogmatic way for plainly on that same page 208 .a connection of sorts is plainly evident.

scholar JW

[Ann O'Maly]

14 hours ago, scholar JW said:

I wrote twice to Bethel seeking clarification of this dispute, the first letter, ECE:ECP April 13, 1998 which gave me the source for the quotation

You mean the 'quotation' consisting of two words: "seven times"? Nobody is disputing that Brown used that term in his exposition of Dan. 4 and the 2520 days. 

14 hours ago, scholar JW said:

ECM:ECH March 11, 1999 came with 2 photocopied pages, p, 135 and 208 from Brown's book along with a photocopy of the title page showing the vol. number and date of publication; vol.2, 1823. It was noted that the connection is found on page 208 wherein the connection is clearly and easily identified. This page contains 2 paragraphs in portion, the first par. mentions the 'seven times' of Daniel and the very next par. contains the quotation of Luke 21:24 so a connection between the two is plain. 

Well, you said something very similar in that 2012 email. I'll c&p my response:

Quote

Now, you have carefully worded your final statement to avoid being specific:

 

       The link between Luke and Daniel is clearly presented by Brown in his Eventide, Vol.2, p.208.

 

 I suspect that the link between Luke and Daniel is actually the one made between Dan. 12:7 and Luke 21 ... unless you are suggesting that Brown overhauled his chronological scheme in his Vol. 2 and then repeated his initial viewpoint from Vol. 1 in his later 1827 work, The Jew, the master-key of the Apocalypse (p. 23). Is this really what you are asking me to believe? 

 

If, indeed, Jonsson and Franz have overlooked Brown's temporary change of mind which the Proclaimers writer picked up on, I'm sure you would have provided hard evidence by now, like a full quotation from p. 208, Vol. 2 or, better yet, a scan of the page. It's easy to do. It's telling that you have not yet done so, even though this has been a bugbear of yours for some years now 

P. 135 is online (link provided in previous post). It does not support the suggestion that Brown equated Dan. 4's 'seven times' period with Luke 21:24's 'Gentile times.' 

P. 208 is not yet online for everyone to see. All you have to do is produce a scan of p. 208 and prove your claim. Nearly 20 years of sitting on this, Neil - are you going to? I dares ya!  

[Ann O'Maly]

19 hours ago, allensmith28 said:

The treatise that COJ submitted to the Watchtower, was flawed. Witnesses seem to forget that point, and this is why you ONLY see the 4^th edition of COJ’s book in public, now.

In his third edition, COJ took a calculated “risk” to introduce a FLAWED document. Text NBC-4897 by Brinkman A. John. 

[...]

The 19^th year ends up in 585BC. A far cry from that of what people wanted to illustrate with VAT4956. So, COJ had to *correct* that error by embracing VAT4956, and readjust the terminology.

COJ's brief discussion of the NBC 4897 accounting tablet from the 4th edition of GTR. See p.131f.

COJ's detailed discussion of the NBC 4897 accounting tablet, where he mentions this: 

Quote

"The most extensive and detailed discussion of the tablet, however, is Stefan Zawadzki’s article, “Bookkeeping Practices at the Eanna Temple in Uruk in the Light of the Text NBC 4897,” Journal of Cuneiform Studies, Vol. 55 (2003), pp. 99-123. Zawadzki’s discussion covers 25 large-sized pages, four of which give a transliteration and translation of the tablet. The article contains the most detailed and careful examination of the tablet so far. He corrects a number of misreadings and misinterpretations in the previous articles by Ronald H. Sack and G. van Driel/K. R. Nemet-Nejat."

 

I've read both the van Driel/Nemet-Nejat and Zawadzki articles. The tablet confirms the standard NB chronology and that no extra kings and timeline chunks can be inserted anywhere between Nebuchadnezzar II and Neriglissar. 

[Witness]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:08 PM, Arauna said:

Speaking to you is like speaking to a Muslim.

 

On 12/31/2017 at 10:08 PM, Arauna said:

The muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back in the flesh 

I’m not a Muslim, but I do believe Jesus will return in the flesh with his messenger/angels/144,000.

 “Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7 CSB

(Check Wt’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures)

Could John be referencing the future coming of Christ in the flesh? The “many deceivers” were already well aware of Jesus Christ; thus, they knew he had been ‘in the flesh’ as a man; so possibly this refers to his future coming, or his ascension. At any rate, the Bible usage of “coming” defines it as coming and going.

^“After he had said this, he was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight.  While he was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them.  They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come (same word found in 2 John 1:7)  in the same way that you have seen him going into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

It gives full indication of Christ’s going and his future coming, in the same way – as the apostles saw him appear to them in the flesh after he was resurrected.  John 21:14; Mark 16:12  The apostle John was aware that Jesus said to Nathanael:

 “Do you believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than this.”  Then he said, “Truly I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”  John 1:50,51

Is mankind going to peer into heaven and view the angels (“144,000”) ascending and descending on Christ while in heaven?

Jacob saw a symbolic ladder/stairway in his dream:

“And he dreamed: A stairway was set on the ground with its top reaching the sky, and God’s angels were going up and down on it.“   Gen 28:12

Who are these messenger/angels?

“And they sang a new song:

You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slaughtered,
and you purchased^[a] people^[b]
for God by your blood
from every tribe and language
and people and nation.

You made them a kingdom
and priests to our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”  Rev 5:9,10

“Priests” – “ For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should desire instruction from his mouth, because he is the messenger of the Lord of Armies.”  Mal 2:7

“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”  1 Pet 2:9

Can you see that the “144,000” faithful priests to serve God and Christ as the Bride coming down from heaven, will be with Christ both in heaven and on earth? Rev 21:2  Both Christ and the Bride will be ascending into heaven and descending to the “ground” at various times. Rev 22:17,1,2   There is no other way to explain these two scriptures. 

The “new creation” of both human and spirit, which enables this to occur, was covered in our last conversation on this thread: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/34048-why-doesnt-the-society-translate-and-provide-the-russian-court-transcripts-for-us/?page=10&tab=comments#comment-72045

 

On 12/31/2017 at 10:08 PM, Arauna said:

Question: how can they accomplish the preaching work which will be done in an organized way to ALL the earth before the end comes? Jehovah is a god of order not disorder....      

The “man of lawlessness” which “sits” in the Temple of God - the replacing of the priesthood with the elder body/ false priesthood - performs the works of Satan “with all power, signs and lying wonders. 2 Thess 2:9  But, if you’ll remember, the true preaching work during the time of the end is to spiritual “Israel”. Matt.10:23; Isa.48:20; Jer.31:11  The scripture is there and can’t be ignored.   How has God accomplished his work in the past?  He has used few individuals to come against the majority – Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Jonah, etc. – the majority of His people.  1 Kings 19:3,4,9-18; Jer 1:4-10; Isa 6:6-13 As we have seen in the history of God’s people, Holy Spirit in an individual accomplished what was needed to get accomplished, and how it was said.  You seem to doubt the power of God? Is the power of the organization greater than the power of God? Rev 13:4,11-15  Do you doubt the Holy Spirit within an individual that leads them to truth in Christ?  Do you have to “see” great signs, or can you have faith that Jesus will lead each acceptable heart to truth?  

Rev 11 - Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: “Go and measure the temple of God (the holy priesthood) and the altar, and count those who worship there. ² But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Don’t measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. ³ I will grantmy two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”  Rev 11:1-3

“Two” represents truth.  Christ emboldens his “witnesses” with authority to expose lies. 2 Thess 2:7,8 These anointed ones and others who take up the call with them have been “killed”/disfellowshipped for refuting the GB’s/organization’s false teachings. Rev 11:7-10 Pretty hard to fathom since God has been quiet for a long while. Isa 42:14-25  Since the Temple has been trampled upon by the elder body; since it has been given over to the “Gentiles”/nations, since Revelation’s Beasts are found in the Wt., what’s next?  Matt 24:16; Rev 18:4-8

  We have the internet now, bringing news from around the world in an instant , Arauna.  One person blessed with God’s Spirit, can reach thousands.  Joining that one person, are many more.  Please, don’t forget that Jesus knows his sheep and will lead them to “living water” if they are truly searching for truth. Or have you forgotten this power?    Do you really believe that God is blessing a “preaching work” fraught with dark holes of empty, trashed, doctrine; (Col 2:8) and which rejects Christ’s anointed Body, favoring the “Gentile” elder body over God’s appointment?  Rejecting the anointed in the capacity they have been given, is rejecting Christ; which is a full indication of “anti-Christ”.  Heb 10:29

 “And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.  For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. (Maybe Paul was OCD)  I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.  And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,  that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.”  1 Cor 2:1-5

On 12/31/2017 at 10:08 PM, Arauna said:

Your chronology has NO logic..... it does not fit.... and half the prophecies can be thrown out with the way you present the dates.

Are you talking to me?  The only date I mentioned was 1914. 

I believe to Anna you said, "world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'."

Only in JW world.  You teach that the “birth of the Kingdom” (1914) came before the labor pains.    How do you account for such a phenomenon?

Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 

“As regards the Christian congregation, Jesus Christ is the only one rightly bearing the title “Leader,” because no imperfect human is the leader of true Christians; they follow Christ.” it-2 pp. 228-229

I totally agree.

“WHO is your leader?” That is a question often put to Jehovah’s Witnesses. And no wonder! In many religions, one man or one woman acts as leader, or chief. In contrast, we are proud to tell those who inquire that our Leader is not an imperfect human. Rather, we follow the lead of the resurrected Christ, who in turn follows the lead of his Father, Jehovah.—Matt. 23:10”.  Wt 2/17/ pp 18-22

Truth.  This is the truth that you “preach” at the door, right?  I came from a Catholic background and was convinced that this organization was not anything like the Catholic church, with a pope as head.  How wrong I was.

“As anointed Christians, the members of that slave “keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.” (Rev. 14:4) As we follow their direction, (lead) therefore, we follow our Leader, Jesus. Soon, he will lead us to everlasting life. (Rev. 7:14-17) And no human leader can promise that!  es18 pp. 88-97”

A transition is happening; from only Christ as our Leader, to a human leader promising that by following their direction - their lead -  one is following Christ.

“But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important.” ws11 7/15 pp. 17-2

Following a faithful anointed one’s spiritual direction through scriptures, is one thing; but requiring strict obedience to the person, with consequences for not doing so, is blasphemy;  since Jesus is our only Master and Leader.  Could the GB be called a “false Messiah”?  Indeed!   “For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?” 1 Cor 3:4

Through Holy Spirit, we can discern what is truth and what is not, and no man can judge us according to another’s faulty doctrine. James 4:12  The Watchtower teaches madness, pure drunkenness, sourced from a Harlot’s cup. Rev 17:1,2  Occasionally, such as the above quotes, they show you both spectrums, then teach the lie.  Are you not still following humans that expect your obedience? 1 Cor 4:6,7 What other anointed one besides the GB has the assumed ability to spiritually “kill” through disfellowshipping for rejection of doctrine?  Rev 11:7; 13:11,14,15

⁶ You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. ⁷ For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines^[a] and earthquakes in various places. ⁸ All these events are the beginning of labor pains. Matt 24:4-8

I have given you proof through scriptures, which I wonder if you have even attempted to read.  You give me your rebuttal in words only.

 ^“And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,  that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” 1 Cor 2:4,5

^“ For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.” 1 Cor 4:20

“These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”  1 Cor 2:13

"So he answered me, "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel:  'Not by strength or my might, but by my Spirit,' says the Lord of Armies"  Zech 4:6

Since the GB is not inspired, the organization relies on men's strength and might, not on Spirit - at least not God's Spirit.  Rev 16:13-16

  The “Great Crowd” has its’ own topic under Bible Discussion. 

“For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; ²⁸ and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, ²⁹ that no flesh should glory in His presence.

This includes the GB whom you call "the slave" (as if Christ has only 7 "slaves")  and whom you feel cannot be challenged.

On 12/31/2017 at 10:08 PM, Arauna said:

You are living in a bubble because the information you give is as inconsistent as the teachings in the Qur'an

Do you realize you believe that the Watchtower exists in a “bubble” in Satan’s world, with full access to his “tool box”? And that you look for the signs of coming Kingdom of God to be fulfilled through Satan’s world?  Job 14:4; John 18:36; Matt 12:39

 

 

 

[Arauna]

18 hours ago, Anna said:

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.

I understood what you meant but I countered it with another question to prove how most people in the world do not study the bible. In contrast, the Witnesses study and learn the truth and it carries them for a long time. Truths such as the mortality of the soul, Jehovah's name etc.  Most people on this forum learnt all these things from the Witnesses but turn around and bite the hand that fed them this information in the first place!   

 

19 hours ago, Anna said:

How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.

My FEELINGS are - you are wrong.  Most know how we get there but have more to do with their time than spend days in front of their computers in forums like this trying to score points for themselves..... because this is not edifying to anyone but the persons who think they can discredit the slave...  it is not purely an academic exercise - do not be fooled!.. 

There are more competent people on here than I - who can be an advocate in this court case - however, fairness is not guaranteed!  I recall when this subject came up before under another heading  these same people themselves did not know that the JW's use 537 BCE as the pivotal date to get to 607 BCE .... the conversation fizzled out after this was proven to them......just to be opened up later again with more virulent compulsion. 

As someone has already pointed out - we do not need this for salvation. But I do think 1914 helps us to realize how far we are in the stream of time and how close we are to Armageddon - a loving provision from Jehovah.  And I do not try to 'prove' anything with this statement...because appreciation cannot be measured or quantified in an academic way unless you do another study - lol. I am not here to score points but I wish to show there is more to 1914 than just a date - the history on the ground is completely ignored by these people who try to prove the slave to be deceivers and they use any minute discrepancy to do so to their advantage.... without considering their own discrepancies.... and this shines a light on their motive.... 

There are many feelings attached to this date - it presents much more than a date.  Many here  promote only the knowledge without a love for Jehovah - so it has no meaning to them - just an academic exercise. And yet these very people ignore the signs on the ground which has so much emotional meaning for those awaiting this final stretch of time.  The history on the ground since 1914 is what helps the "simple folk out there - the Amaharets" - without the academic inclinations, to lift their heads up. They are the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus loves.... and sustains with his spirit.

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The history on the ground since 1914 is what helps the "simple folk out there - the Amaharets" - without the academic inclinations, to lift their heads up. They are the ones whom Jehovah and Jesus loves.... and sustains with his spirit.

God and his Son love the Amaharets. They are chosen over the lofty. It is one of the most significant lessons a person can learn from  the Bible 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

The difference between "lofty", and "noble" .... is competence.

[Ann O'Maly]

2 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

That’s the point of him not being able to back up his “absolute” claims, by back peddling.

You're not making sense. Again.

2 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

However, we’ve discussed that VAT4956 doesn’t meet the Saros cycle. 

VAT 4956 meets Saros cycle 59. None of your pictures display anything from Saros 59 and are thereby irrelevant to the lunar eclipse predicted on VAT 4956.

17 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

How about NBC4897? I donÂ’t find it either.

Um. NBC 4897 isn't an astronomical text, you kumquat. 

[Ann O'Maly]

15 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

So, your willing NOT to play by the VAT4956 rules, and go against all formulas by suggesting JULY, instead of the Given correct months for the Saros Cycle which none come close to VAT4956.

17 minutes ago, allensmith28 said:

ad ho·mi·nem But, I'm glad you mentioned it since COJ did think it, instead of just a flawed ledger.

You're offended by being called the name of a small, orange fruit.

COJ never thought NBC 4897 an astronomical text, you donut. 

('Donut' - you can tell the gloves are coming off now!)