607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Top Cat O'Malighan]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Well then, lets blame @TrueTomHarley.

It sure took you long enough. Blaming TTH is always the way to go. What a jerk he is!

1 hour ago, Anna said:

It's funny reading your posts with no capitalization on the I.  I don't know if I can take you seriously.

He's just doing his e e cummings false humility shtick. He's almost as bad as TrueTom.

[Anna]

3 hours ago, Top Cat O'Malighan said:

It sure took you long enough. Blaming TTH is always the way to go. What a jerk he is!

He's just doing his e e cummings false humility shtick. He's almost as bad as TrueTom.

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

supposed to be discussing topics and ideas rather than people and their motives

Every spoken word has a motive - for a result.... and a withheld word also has motive...... if one withholds a titbit of truth - one can deceive.....

So it is interesting to see how people use their information....

[Anna]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:11 AM, Arauna said:

When people start to develop egos and leave the truth one cannot trust them any more.  TRUST is an important aspect in all facets of life - even in business when working with opposition companies or negotiating.  I have worked in business in America and believe me TRUST is the most important thing - if your work involves working with opposition companies.

If I am working with a person in a team and they are always criticizing management severely and they are only looking out for themselves - ego - it breaks team morale.  We are social animals after all - Jehovah created us this way - that we need to trust each other. 

When someone has left the truth and they are pursuing a scholarly career then ego and politics at the university enters into it.  At present I would NOT like to be working at any  university - have you noticed what is going on?   Would I completely trust such a person and their integrity to just go after truth?  Or is it more important to them to get noticed and pose a new theory? 

 

I don't think you can be talking about Gerard Gertoux developing an ego and leaving the truth, because really we have absolutely no proof of that. The only thing that is evident from his own writings is that he believes Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE. So I am not sure what you mean by trust. That we can not trust him because of that? As far as I am aware he has never criticized the WT and he has not advertised his research regarding that subject, in fact he has been laying pretty low, and not really wanting to talk about it with anyone.

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

On 1/4/2018 at 6:33 PM, Anna said:

but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign

This is dangerous thinking because there are too many signs on the ground now which started in 1914 and is culminating into a very dangerous world-wide situation - it is putting the future of mankind's very EXISTENCE in jeopardy.  These issues will definitely all be coming to a crisis within the next few years - quicker than expected.

Why is that dangerous thinking? Isn't that just stating a fact? I didn't say that we should be complacent, but I do think we should be realistic.

I think there is a danger though in promising people something that will happen in their life time, and then it not coming true. My best friend, a long time pioneer, left because she lost faith that this is the true religion because of promises that were "without a doubt true" but that never happened and that kept getting explained away. I personally feel it's a little presumptions to claim these things. Then some will say..."well, they were in it for the wrong reason, that's why they left". But what is it we are feeding in people when we put such emphasis on the imminent end? We are doing exactly that, we are encouraging serving Jehovah for the wrong reason. Not because he is a God deserving our exclusive devotion, but because of what we can get out of him very soon. I wonder, did Jesus have in mind attracting people to the Kingdom in such a way? Yes, of course we tell them to "repent" because the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near, yes it is good we are not complacent like other religions, yes it is good we keep a sense of urgency, and yes it is good to keep our hope alive and in front of us, but to make certain claims (or I should say the Slave, we just repeat what they say) which are blatantly erroneous, makes fools of others and us, and can cause people to stumble. Perhaps this is a test. How loyal are we to Jehovah "despite" man's errors. Another good friend of mine, a very zealous faithful sister, is not allowing the errors of man to slow her down, or stumble her. She  waves her hand in dismissal at the new explanation to why Armageddon hasn't come yet, aka the 'overlapping generation'. Pretty much in a similar manner as Br. Herd did in the December broadcast when talking about our "past" understanding of the generation. He seems to think we've finally got it. She thinks it's nonsense. Her motto is; when it comes it comes, in the meantime I am here to do my job. And if I die so what?  Hopefully I will be resurrected. And if not, I won't even care, will I?
When the Slave admits they've sometimes had wrong expectations, that doesn't mean we have to have those same wrong expectations too, does it?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Another good friend of mine, a very zealous faithful sister, is not allowing the errors of man to slow her down, or stumble her. She  waves her hand in dismissal at the new explanation to why Armageddon hasn't come yet, aka the 'overlapping generation'. Pretty much in a similar manner as Br. Herd did in the December broadcast when talking about our "past" understanding of the generation. He seems to think we've finally got it. She thinks it's nonsense. Her motto is; when it comes it comes, in the meantime I am here to do my job. And if I die so what?

This is where Freedom and sanity, and peace come from .... when you disregard people who have proved they have no credibility whatsoever ... and STOP BEING AFRAID OF DYING. 

Every living thing that has DNA dies ... and there have never been any exceptions... not one... from a mosquito to  a Brontosaurus ... and we did not exist at all for about 14 BILLION years ... and my guess is no one worried about it.

We should serve Jehovah because it is the right thing to do .... not because someone is generating artificial panics to get the troops to march faster.

[Arauna]

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

Why is that dangerous thinking? Isn't that just stating a fact?

Because the signs are overwhelming..... no-one can deny that... since 1914 the world has grown incrementally worse ..... and we ain't seen nothing yet! The currents of what is going on now is frightening!  Even for someone that knows Jehovah......  

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

My best friend, a long time pioneer, left because she lost faith that this is the true re

If people think their own brilliance and stability keeps them in the truth they are mistaken.  It is Jehovah's spirit that keeps us here.  If we lose our relationship with him we cannot see beyond the pains and aches of this system.... or the faults of others....and then other things in the world become more important such as doctorate degrees, stage careers or some other passion that can get us attention. ... and then we find some valid-looking excuse.

There are many people in the truth who have suffered - even by lack of love from their own brother's imperfection - but they cling to Jehovah and the 'heritage' he has given us.

 

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

we are feeding in people when we put such emphasis on the imminent end

Some people are suffering out there - the poorest of the poorest look forward to the release of their suffering.  I have seen such poverty in Africa - the first time I worked in a devastatingly poor area  - I went home and cried for a week.  People in developed countries do not know what REAL poverty is and to be part of a poor uneducated society.... they have no clue!    

The promises that Jehovah will bring an end to suffering and indicating 1914 as the start of this - with the growth of terrorism, insecurity, refugees and poverty as result of wars - is NOT promoting a falsehood....  it helps people to put their trust in the only solution there is .....to trust Jehovah for salvation...... they have a hope which will not fail them. We fail.... but Jehovah cannot fail. 

 

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Every spoken word has a motive - for a result.... and a withheld word also has motive...... if one withholds a titbit of truth - one can deceive.....

There is so much truth in this. Obviously you may have brought it up for other reasons, but it is at the core of so many issues of truth and motive in all walks of life. Even what we call 'fake news' is not usually just a set of absolutely false statements; it is often a combination of truth and absence of truth. And yes, it's done with the motive of deceiving someone into believing that a true part of the story is the whole story.

But it applies so perfectly to this discussion of 607 and in ways that are sometimes hidden until we realise the motive. And we shouldn't believe that a motive that can deceive others is always to be judged as nefarious or 'calculating.' A person who has been previously deceived --but did not realise it-- will often dismiss contrary evidence from their mind, withhold evidence from themselves, in a natural way because their motive is defense of a supposed truth. Their own wonderful motive, defending a greater truth, will become a matter of picking and choosing evidence without their even realising it. 

[JW Insider]

With respect to @Arauna's insightful comments about truth and motive, I was thinking about ways in which the entire 607 doctrine has been affected.

• At the very core of the 607 theory is the idea that we can choose the secular dates 539 to 537 without choosing the secular date 587 for Neb's 19th year, or 598 for Neb's 8th year. Yet, our publications consistently leave out the fact that all the data and evidence that we accept for 539 is precisely the same data and evidence that gives us 587 and 598. Yet we have renamed those secular years by adding 20 to each of them, but without adding 20 to 539. Most of us therefore have the impression that there is evidence and data that our 607 date is correct, and we find ourselves defending the evidence and data used for 539 and not realising we are defending the same evidence for 587 and 598. Our motive is good, but we don't even realise we are withholding evidence because we are so motivated to defend something we think must be true.
• Another idea that is at the very core of the 607 theory is that there were 70 years of complete desolation where the land would be without an inhabitant, and that this can only have occurred from the time of Jerusalem's fall until shortly after 539, or 537. But this idea does not have scriptural support as already shown in earlier posts in this thread. Note that Neb's 19th year is the Biblical date of Jerusalem's fall. So notice the claim we use, and then compare it with the Bible evidence.

*** it-1 p. 463 Chronology ***

• Hence the count of the 70 years of desolation must have begun about October 1, 607 B.C.E., ending in 537 B.C.E. By the seventh month of this latter year the first repatriated Jews arrived back in Judah, 70 years from the start of the full desolation of the land.—2Ch 36:21-23; Ezr 3:1.

But notice the Biblical evidence that we always leave out:

• (Jeremiah 52:15, 16) 15 Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took into exile some of the lowly people and the rest of the people who were left in the city. He also took the deserters who had defected to the king of Babylon as well as the rest of the master craftsmen. 16 But Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard left some of the poorest people of the land to serve as vinedressers and as compulsory laborers.
• (Jeremiah 52:28-30) 28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people.. . .
• (2 Kings 25:8, 9) 8 In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 9 He burned down the house of Jehovah. . .

If the land was completely desolate as of Neb's 18th year or 19th year, then how could another exile happen in the 23rd year?

The motive for withholding this tidbit of information appears to be that it makes it easier to claim that the land was completely and fully desolate for 70 years starting in Neb's 18th or 19th year, even though another exile took place 4 or 5 years later.

Then we also have the Biblical evidence from Daniel and Zechariah and Jeremiah several other scriptures that has never been addressed. And when we finally get to the overall motive for skewing the evidence, support for 1914, we find that there are several more verses that suffer mistranslation or which are always completely withheld. Why, for instance, do we never mention that Revelation 11:2 is a clear reference to the appointed times of Luke 21:24?

[TrueTomHarley]

I like it that the application of Bible principles is always a qualification of authorship in the WT publications or at jw.org. Thus, some brilliant scholar in the world might write in a guest article on nearly any outlet, but it would not happen on jw.org. You have to apply Christian principles in order to have a voice. They would never take a guest post from Top Cat O'Malighan.

Doubtless they miss out on some scholarship that way, but they also safeguard themselves from much error, as it is not uncommon for yesterday's scholarship to be today's trash. I like it when @Arauna mentions motive. It is often the most relevant factor, though persons with ill-motive will dismiss it as ad hominem attack.

Of course, one cannot expect Wt standards to prevail here. It has never been claimed that they do. Nor do I imply that whoever takes the 'right' or 'wrong' side on any discussion is or is not applying Christianity. There is no way to tell. But on jw.org, they always are. It lends that source a huge measure of confidence, granted that their ship may not always turn on a dime. It takes a while to establish that something really is something and not just the tossing of rubbish on the waves and the trickery of men.

On this forum, many can and do tell the GB what to do. This is the internet and people can do what they want. But such correction by the people, though popular today,  is not the Bible pattern. When David truly was being a scoundrel, it was not the people who called him on it, but an already established prophetic channel. 

 

 

 

[Witness]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:34 AM, Arauna said:

This to me sounds like a bunch of people who want to see themselves as a special class of teachers...... and walk around amongst the earthly Amaharets as privileged heavenly ones.....like the fathers of the Nephilim of old.... same wish for more than their allotted attention.  

I am dumbfounded by your condemnatory words against the anointed who are AMONG you; how anything about them is assumed as haughtiness, while the GB in all their high-minded glory has instituted judgment against them if they disagree with their doctrine, using their own false priests to carry out the verdict. Isa 66:5; Matt 24:48-51; Luke 12:11,12; John 16:2; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 11:1-3,7,8  You are condoning the judging of God’s priests by the elders.

Rom 8:33,34 - Who dares to bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who rightly condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."

1Cor.6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! "

John20:21-23: " Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”  And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.  If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

In other words, you are saying the priests/kings are to only reign in heaven, not on the earth - although scriptures say otherwise, Rev 5:9,10. They are going to remain quiet up there, just as they are in the organization.  Since it is the elder body that will continue to “rule” over all, as a “special class of teachers”…replacing the “new creation”, of both human and spirit. 1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:17; Heb 12:22  Or…maybe you believe that the ‘lofty’ position in heaven that the GB, who are most certain they will obtain, (Phil 2:12) will allow them to continue authorizing an elder body to be the “princes” on earth, instead of the chosen ones.  Chosen – by God, and not men.

Is this what you think? Was it an act of arrogance when Christ appeared to the disciples in bodily form after he was resurrected?  This High Priest continued to teach his followers – his under priests once he was resurrected.  He is the Head of the anointed Body of Christ, of which each member is to be one in him. They are to be inseparable. Eph 1:22; John 15:16; Rom 12:4,5; 1 Cor 12:25  In the Kingdom, they are the Bride of their Husband – the Bride/New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven.  1 Pet 2:21; Rev 3:12  Arauna, that is only possible if they are both spirit and human.

Please, l beg you and all JWs to learn who these anointed ones are, who reside with you under “captivity” in the organization. Rev 13:1,5-7,10; 20:9 You, along with the majority of JWs of the organization, are blind to God’s own New Covenant arrangement with spiritual “Israel”; an arrangement that is perfection, bringing healing to the nations.  The anointed are the symbolic “trees”, prepared through rigorous testing to benefit all of God’s children. The Tree of life is Christ (John 6:57; Rev 2:7); his “trees” that obtain the Kingdom also will carry sustaining life to all.  Luke 6:44,45; Rev 11:3,4; Zech 4:3,4,12-14 The elders do not carry God’s laws within their heart, allowing them to teach as God intended; they carry a man contrived set of rules. Do you really think God would prefer them over His anointed ones to heal and teach the nations?  Not according to scripture.

“Then he showed me the river of the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb  down the middle of the city’s main street. The tree of life was on each side of the river, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree are for healing the nations,  and there will no longer be any curse.”  Rev 22:1-3

 You are blind to who are the authentic “witnesses” of God, and the true teachers He has appointed, and who will “follow the Lamb wherever he goes”; if and only if they submit to refinement of sins, idolatry, false prophesy, and false teachings by an “Ephraim” who has removed the boundary (of the meaning of God’s nation) and teaches “human precepts”. Matt 10:24-27; Luke 3:9

“But finding fault with his people, he says: See, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not like the covenant
that I made with their ancestors
on the day I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt.
I showed no concern for them, says the Lord,
because they did not continue in my covenant.
 For this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.  Heb 8:8-10

Spiritual “Israel” – the anointed ones who carry the law of God within them.  Because of this, they are able and required to teach the people.

“For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should desire instruction from his mouth, because he is the messenger of the Lord of Armies.”  Mal 2:7

This instruction is given in the manner Jesus, who fulfilled the law – carried the law within himself, instructed while on earth.  Is this haughty, or a blessed arrangement by God?

Now this is what the Lord says—
the one who created you, Jacob,
and the one who formed you, Israel—
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name; you are mine.

“You are my witnesses”—
this is the Lord’s declaration—
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
No god was formed before me,
and there will be none after me. Isa 43:1,10

“As you come to him, a living stone—rejected by people but chosen and honored by God—  you yourselves, as living stones, a spiritual house, are being built to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 

 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his possession, so that you may proclaim the praisesof the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.  Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”  1 Pet 2:5,9,10

They, the priesthood, are the nation of God.  The remnant who come out of the great tribulation – purged of all sin taught by the Harlot; refined through affliction to serve God and Christ and accepted as vessels to teach mankind through God’s arrangement. There is nothing haughty about it, since following Christ requires sacrifice.  They are not their own - they belong to God; yet, in the Watchtower they, and their companions, have become slaves of men. 1 Cor 7:23; Rom 6:16

Those who accept the falsehood that “the day of the Lord has come” in 1914, choose also the lie about the anointed ones, over this truth.    2 Thess 2:1,2,9-12; John 13:20

Scriptures are needed, Arauna, to prove the truth from God’s Word.  Otherwise, it is the blind leading the blind.  Is this your choice?

The “helpers” in Moses’ day were directly approved by God.  Num 11:16,17,25   Through the anointing, God has directly chosen his priests. 1 John 2:27

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 1/6/2018 at 9:22 AM, Nana Fofana said:

They were taken to Babylon from Egypt, where they'd run away to, when...

There is very little evidence for this. The Bible does not say that these 745 captives -- almost the same number taken in Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year -- came from Egypt, Ammon or Moab. It's true that Nebuchadnezzar continued to devastate and desolate the nations around Judea. After all, Jeremiah said that Babylon would be given 70 years of domination, so this is to be expected. But the theory in the Insight book, is still only a theory as you can tell by the word 'probably.' The supposed evidence from Josephus only tells us what we should already know, but Josephus does not say that this is where any of the 745 captives came from either. Also it does not take into account that the Bible says it was Nebuzaradan, NOT Nebuchadnezzar who took these captives, and the Bible only mentions Nebuzaradan in connection with the area around Jerusalem, starting with the very destruction of Jerusalem and the assignment of poor people to continue on the land. 

On 1/6/2018 at 10:00 AM, Nana Fofana said:

19th year

Jeremiah 52

18 The chief of the guard also took Se·raiʹah+ the chief priest, Zeph·a·niʹah+ the second priest, and the three doorkeepers.+ 19 And he took from the city one court official who was the commissioner over the soldiers, five close associates of the king who were found in the city, as well as the secretary of the chief of the army, the one mustering the people of the land, and 60 men of the common people of the land who were yet found in the city.

This is all true, of course. And it highlights the truth that the fullest period of Judea's desolation could be focused on the time of the destruction of the nation's capital Jerusalem. But I'm pointing out that if you look at the details, you can see that this was a process, and not something that magically happened the instant Jerusalem fell. If it were true that those 745 exiles were somehow explicitly separated from those which Nebuchadnezzar took in 598, then this might be evidence that Neb's 19th year was that 'magic' turning point. Instead we are told that there was another captivity, 5 years later, and can see that it is bundled in with the total, 6400. They are described as if associated with those found in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. If the 745 were taken from Egypt for example, this would be of great importance to the theme of how Nebuzaradan went so far out of his way to fulfill the word of Jehovah through Jeremiah. No one doubts, I hope, that the Bible's claims came true that Jerusalem and Judea were devastated to the point of complete desolation. But the evidence in the Bible never points to a full 70 years from the time of Jerusalem's destruction. If this had been the true point of the bible record then why point out that poor people were assigned to stay on the land to work the land and be vinedressers, as mentioned. 

Judea went into exile in the manner described, but the manner described includes multiple exiles going back before the destruction of Jerusalem and continuing after it. The destruction of the temple and the tearing down of the walls of Jerusalem was the key in its destruction, because there was no more material safety (the wall), and then Jehovah had obviously allowed the destruction of the symbol for spiritual safety (the temple).

Concerning Riblah and Hamath we can see that Nebuzaradan really was working separately from Nebuchadnezzar, which fits an idea that we also can get from the Babylonian Chronicles. We see that he traveled northward, past the Judea border and probably well past the old Israelite border to meet up with the king.

*** it-1 p. 1025 Hamath ***

• The exact location of this boundary (or place) is not certain. It was reckoned as the northern boundary of Israel’s territory (Nu 34:8; 1Ki 8:65; 2Ki 14:25; 2Ch 7:8) and as bordering on Damascus. (Jer 49:23; Eze 47:15-17; 48:1; Zec 9:1, 2) Some think it was the southern extremity of the Coele-Syria Valley (also called the Beqaʽ), which runs between the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon mountain ranges. Others say it was halfway between Baalbek and Riblah. Yet others suggest it was still farther N where the pass opens up between Homs and the sea.—Eze 47:20.

 

 

[Ann O'Maly]

17 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Ann

I have made clear my position so the ball is in your court.

scholar JW

Smh. Um, for years you have been clutching that ball tightly to your chest, ungraciously refusing to bat it across.

Fortunately, someone has thrown over another one. It took the person* less than 2 hours, Neil! 

To review, you claimed:

Quote

It was noted that the connection is found on page 208 wherein the connection is clearly and easily identified. This page contains 2 paragraphs in portion, the first par. mentions the 'seven times' of Daniel and the very next par. contains the quotation of Luke 21:24 so a connection between the two is plain. 

At last, readers here can judge for themselves how 'plain' and 'evident' the connection is ... or otherwise:

 

Further, you said:

Quote

Franz had in fact supported the Society's position as shown in his Crisis Of Conscience, 1994, 2nd edn.p.367 yet he in a email dated September 24, 2003 he chastised me and the Society for sloppy research and failing to properly understand Brown's description of the prophetic periods.

I also have his 2nd edition, although it's a 1992 printing. Franz did not "support the Society's position" about what was stated in the Proclaimers book. He actually said:

"Brown first published this interpretation in 1823 and his method
converted the “seven times” into 2,520 years in exactly the same way
found today in Watch Tower publications."

... meaning that the way Brown converted 'seven times' into 2,520 years, by using a day-for-a-year method, is the same one Watchtower uses. That's quite different to what you were implying.

By 2004, Franz had added a footnote:

"See page 134 of Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom. The book
makes the erroneous statement that, although not ‘clearly discerning’ the date with
which the 2,520 years would begin or end (evidently meaning that his dates for the
beginning and the ending did not match those of Watch Tower teachings), Brown
“did connect these ‘seven times’ with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24.” As
Jonsson’s book The Gentile Times Reconsidered correctly states “Brown did not
himself associate this period with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24.” His 2,520-
year calculation did, however, play a part in the later linking of the “seven times”
with the Gentile Times in 1826. See The Gentile Times Reconsidered, pages 32-36,
for a full discussion of this development." - p. 179

So as usual Neil, your claims do not align with reality.

* Thanks go to Alan F for promptly providing the scan.