607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Ann O'Maly]

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

This to me is so strange because all I see here on this forum is an OCD rehash of the  1914 issue  every time I open up my computer to come to this website .......and NO new interesting thoughts I can really think about.  Is this all this band of renegades can talk about?

Aw, how awful for you, suffering this way. Why don't you de-stress by ignoring all threads on this topic and start some new engaging and thought-provoking ones of your own? 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Who had this experience you mentioned above? 

It is mine. I never found them again. They were students and students come and go.

[Arauna]

Yes - to talk about neutrality is a good way to go..... and to show that we are one unified nation on the earth.... waiting for a heavenly government.  Jesus not coming back in the flesh....  I read rev 12 : 6-12 (excluding 11) and then talk about the signs on earth which indicates that Satan has been thrown down!  (They of course think that satan has been here since the beginning - but the scripture indicates that the signs of the end started when he was ejected from heaven and a SHORT time left.... )

One cannot go wrong if you stick to the main theme of the bible.....

I hope you meet more and give a good witness...... 

[Anna]

 

On 12/28/2017 at 2:44 PM, Arauna said:

why waste your time on this myopic quest and focus on the bigger picture - the theme of the Bible and how the government which is already ruling - invisibly - according to revelation 12

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest? If you are, I tend to agree with you wholeheartedly. Focusing on the bigger picture makes all else pale into insignificance. If you have read any of my posts you will know I do not like to get overly concerned with numbers and dates, I just find it curious when the Slave does so. My motto is: I am dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. However, when someone quotes specific numbers and dates at me, and does this consistently year after year....for years, calling them fact, then I like to know where those numbers and dates come from. That's all.

On 12/28/2017 at 2:44 PM, Arauna said:

They are the only ones who knows how this government is going to function..... but I guess you have problems with that too!

I don't quite know what you mean by that. Who do you mean by "only ones" and what do you mean by "know"?

[Witness]

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

You have exposed yourself in what you said above

Good, full transparency is important.  I will give you my real name, if you like.

I erased my answer I was working on, since it is obvious you are sold on “organization” as salvation and believe I “hate” God’s Nation, of which I am part of it.  That is an incredible thought – to hate my own fellow servant. (Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22)  Rom 12:9-21

 I have caused you quite a bit of distress, a sign that we are facing the “great tribulation”; when lies and truth are both revealed.  I am here because the “good news” involves the redemption of “Jacob”/spiritual “Israel”. Jer 31:10,11; Isa 27:6;48:20,21;49:5  

 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. ²² You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ²³ When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.

Any anointed one as well as all who leave the organization to follow Christ experience the above. They leave 1914 behind, false prophesies, idolatry, and “false christs”.  Jesus continued,

“Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:21-23

The Son of Man is soon to come, and the “towns of Israel” are the target of the “preaching work”.  (“Spiritual Israel” is defined in the Insight book). 

Take a look at 2 Thess 2:2

 “not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.”

This letter/teaching/prophesy was made by anointed ones  - “as if from us”.   I’m sure you agree that the GB are anointed ones; all the major leaders of the Wt. were anointed ones.  1914 has carried on relentlessly since it gave birth in Russel’s calculations using pyramidology.  It is proclaimed as God’s Kingdom ruling “in the heavens”/ Christ’s Kingdom established.

In verses 3,4 – the man of lawlessness is found in God’s Temple.  Can you tell me where God’s Temple is?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22

Verse 8  How is the “lawless one” revealed?  Rev 11:1-3 (John 20:22); Mal 3:1; Matt 10:40,20; Luke 21:15; Rev 22:16,6

Verse 9:  What does Satan use to “serve the lie”?  Rev 13:1,2,5-8;16:13-16; 20:7-9

Verse 10:  What “truth” is it that people refuse to love, which causes them to perish?  John 14:6;17:17;14:17; Heb 4:12

Verse 11:  What is the delusion?  Rev 13:1,2,5-8;16:13-16; 20:7-9; 13:11-17

Verse 12:   ^“and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

This wickedness is found where the Temple of God resides; where the “man of lawlessness” is found.  When we can identify the “man of lawlessness”, the “abomination standing in the holy place” (Matt 24:15)……when the anointed ones can discern the “lawless one” standing over them (the elder body)…… the scriptures tell us Christ is near; “even at the door”  Rev 3:20; Luke 12:37  If we open this door, he gives us assurance that he will “feed” us with spiritual abundance.

Rev 2:7; Isa 29:18; Ref 22:10,14; Eph 5:14; John 6:27,33,40,57; 14:21; 2 Pet 1:19; Matt 25:10

This is why I’m here – to tell you these things.  Rev 18:4-8

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest?

No, but putting all your time and energy (and long debates) into dates which were synchronized with Egyptian dates (and trusting these dates)  is an empty exercise like running after fluff ...   Trying to prove that these dates are more accurate than those which have given us 1914 - and the purpose of all of this?  To prove that the slave in NOT the slave! ...   

The best of it is: history on the ground is proving this date absolutely correct!  So I do not think these people have 'myopia' I think they are blind or ignorant of modern history! .... 

As I said before - this slave has produced a NATION on earth which has developed such a spirit of goodwill that they are doing the preaching work for FREE.  (To me, this is a miracle if one compares that to what is going on in the world today under secular and religious regimes). They are educating people to follow the principles of Jehovah without police having to patrol the streets.   These people are being prepared as citizens of a new world where no-one will be telling another what to do. Our facilitators on earth will only serve - not rule.  Complete freedom!  Jehovah will remove people who pose a further threat to his purpose during the 1000 years - the judgment day! 

Social studies 101..... Many of the great philosophers of the past were trying to create such an utopia and failed. (French revolution and Russian revolution are 2 examples).  Today JWs are indicating that a nation can live -in a wicked world- and show good intentions (altruism - without wanting anything back)  to other human beings without having a visible government over them.  ALL by free will!

Yes - there are many faults amongst the people (like israel of old - imperfect people do what imperfect people get up to) but have you noticed lately how the elders are constantly reminded not to dominate?  We, as a nation, are taught the principles of love, neutrality etc - so we can survive as a nation (no political or religious divisions) and obey by free will.  They are preparing us to remain NEUTRAL at Armageddon - which will be a crucial test!

There are people on this forum who are not part of this nation but pretend they are!        BUT they are here to get you OUT of this nation and jibe at you for identifying as a JW  and label you as  a ........slave to the 'slave" in what they say....They treat us like ignorant fools as though we are not Bereans (like they think they are) - when it is they who are the stray cats with no good alternative to offer.  Where is their NATION which the  bible speaks of will be under Zion in the time of the end?

 ²  In the final part of the days,*The mountain of the house of JehovahWill become firmly established above the top of the mountains,+And it will be raised up above the hills,And to it all the nations will stream.+  ³  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob.+ He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.”+

They use this forum for the purpose of so-called 'sophisticated' debate. Unfortunately I have seen no sophistication, not even good critical thinking - only a short-sighted pushing of personal ideas and debates on very old dates which were put down in stone in the early 19th century by the first Assyriologists. (not that I do not respect the work these people did at the time - I still have a few of their books in my library)..... BUT to base my everlasting life on the work of these people?  I am more sophisticated than that ...... and I am proud to be part of the nation mentioned in Isaiah above!

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

I have caused you quite a bit of distress,

Not distress - one of my best friends (who was like a child to me) who left the truth and became an apostate had this same OCD symptoms I see in you and the same stubborn myopic view. It hurts me to see you hurting yourself and others around you..... and there is hate behind your words for the slave... calling them the lawless one!   You do not even understand the history of Christianity....  ... and as I said before - the BIG picture is missing from your view (very short-sighted views, accusative and critical).

Where did you learn about the 144000 and the future government?   By yourself or from these same people that you now condemn and think you have more special insight than they.....

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Brother will betray brother to death

yes - sad to say - your hate is shining through.  I think you will be the first to betray the slave and will feel happy when they are destroyed ...... and what is more - you will rejoice when you see them get problems from the governments for their neutrality...... and you will think you are doing God a favour! .... as the scriptures indicate.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

This is why I’m here – to tell you these things.

Where is your nation (great crowd) that you have produced that will live through Armageddon - if you can prove this to me then I will look more closely at what you have to say..... bring me proof of your new world society that you have produced and where I can associate with them.  I would also like to meet with them so I can do field service as the bible indicates will be done in the "entire world " for FREE in the time of the end (matt 24:14). 

 

[JW Insider]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:04 AM, Gone Fishing said:

The year 607BCE is seen by Jehovah's Witnesses as the coincidence of 2 events: 

1. The desolation of the city of Jerusalem and the land of Judah.
2. The deposition of a king ruling as a representative of the family line of David, actually sitting on Jehovah's throne.

I am still of the opinion that this secular date of 607 doesn't matter that much. Millions of JWs believe it was when the city of Jerusalem and the land of Judea was desolated, and the year the last Davidic king was deposed. For many years now, I've known that there is overwhelming evidence against this date, and overwhelming evidence that it actually happened 20 years after the date that our publications promote. Again, I don't think anyone should make a big deal about a date, and the date is "in the same ball-park," only a couple of decades off. That's less than 1% error for an event that happened about 2,624 years ago.

Millions of Witnesses who accept it do not have any reason to look into it to make sure about it. Why should they? Witnesses should have no reason to be skeptical of the publications, and the publications state very clearly that 607 is the secular date for this Biblical event, without question. I think that it is to be expected, therefore, that most of us will merely defend the date 607 because of the way it is presented in the publications. It appears to be what we should do. It is transparent on this forum that defending 607 has become another way of defending "slave" itself, which has become part of the belief and faith that we naturally defend from a scriptural point of view:

• (1 Peter 3:15) . . ., always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have. . .

So all of us have that scriptural desire and reason to defend our beliefs, which is why I am sure that you and Arauna and others are presenting your views honestly, and with the right motive. My own reason for concern is not so much about the date itself, as explained above, but just an explanation of why I myself cannot honestly promote it. For me it's much more about honesty than the date itself. Looking very carefully and prayerfully at our own explanations in our publications I can see no Biblical reason to concern ourselves with either 607 or 587 or 539 or 537, whether the dates are correct or not. These dates are only as valuable to us as say 1513 B.C.E. or 740 B.C.E.

But I also believe I see evidence that the "slave" does not believe in 607, either. I believe the "slave" must feel trapped into this belief and have not yet found a clear way out. I base this opinion on the way in which the writers deal with evidence that reveals that the writers don't want the evidence questioned because they know what will be found. This shows a fear of the evidence. The very careful way in which they dealt with Furuli's evidence in October and November 2011 was very revealing. Even Insight shows that the writers knew more than they could say.

In fact, it is made to appear that this secular date has scholarly support. In many scholarly publications you will see a "c." for "circa" or "about" in front of a date, or else a range of dates is mentioned so that you can know that there is a measure of uncertainty. The Insight book does this too, in places -- but NEVER for 607. Here's an example:

• *** it-1 p. 192 Ashkelon ***
  In the prophecy of Amos (c. 804 B.C.E.) prediction was made of defeat for the ruler of Ashkelon. (Am 1:8) Secular history shows that in the succeeding century Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria made Asqaluna (Ashkelon) a vassal city. Jeremiah (after 647 B.C.E.) uttered two prophecies involving Ashkelon. While Jeremiah 47:2-7 could have seen some fulfillment when Nebuchadnezzar sacked the city early in his reign (c. 624 B.C.E.), the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:17-20, 28, 29 clearly indicates a fulfillment subsequent to the fall of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. Zephaniah’s prophecy (written before 648 B.C.E.) also foretold a coming desolation for Ashkelon, along with other Philistine cities, after which the remnant of Judah would eventually occupy “the houses of Ashkelon.” (Zep 2:4-7) Finally, about 518 B.C.E., Zechariah proclaimed doom for Ashkelon . . .

In fact, the 607-date chronology is inserted into quotes and references from authorities as if it were referenced from there when it was not.

*** it-1 p. 1025 Hamath ***

• According to an extant cuneiform inscription (British Museum 21946), after the battle of Carchemish in 625 B.C.E. (Jer 46:2), Nebuchadnezzar’s forces overtook and destroyed the fleeing Egyptians in the district of Hamath. (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 99) In this same area, a few years earlier, Pharaoh Nechoh had taken King Jehoahaz captive. (2Ki 23:31-33) Then in 607 B.C.E., with the fall of Jerusalem, . . .

*** it-2 p. 480 Nebuchadnezzar ***

• The inscriptions further show that news of his father’s death brought Nebuchadnezzar back to Babylon, and on the first of Elul (August-September), he ascended the throne. In this his accession year he returned to Hattu, and “in the month Shebat [January-February, 624 B.C.E.] he took the vast booty of Hattu to Babylon.” (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 100) In 624 B.C.E., in the first official year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar again led his forces through Hattu; he captured and sacked the Philistine city of Ashkelon.

*** it-1 p. 1267 Jehoiachin ***

• It appears that Jehoiakim died during this siege and Jehoiachin ascended the throne of Judah. His rule ended, however, a mere three months and ten days later, when he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar in 617 B.C.E. (in the month of Adar, according to a Babylonian chronicle). (2Ki 24:11, 12; 2Ch 36:9; Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. Grayson, 1975, p. 102)

*** it-2 p. 481 Nebuchadnezzar ***

• One fragmentary Babylonian text, dated to Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year (588 B.C.E.), does, in fact, mention a campaign against Egypt. (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, p. 308)

*** it-1 p. 238 Babylon ***

• That year, 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem was laid desolate, was a significant one in the counting of time until Jehovah, the Universal Sovereign, would set up the world ruler of his choice in Kingdom power. . . . One cuneiform tablet has been found referring to a campaign against Egypt in Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year (588 B.C.E.).

Grayson and Pritchard, although referenced as authorities, actually offer contrary evidence, showing that the event marked here for 624 was actually 604, 625 was actually 605, 617 was 597, and the event marked here for 588 is actually 568 -- therefore the date marked 607 would actually be 587.

So although the Jerusalem event marked 607 was actually 587/6, according to all the referenced authorities found in Insight (these and dozens of others, including those not referenced), the Insight book chooses to refer to 607 as if it has never been questioned. Insight mentions the date 607 authoritatively, about 150 times.

To keep 607 in the limelight and evidently to avoid questions about thinking about the Biblical definition of the 70 years, the Insight book not only says 607 was Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year, but also claims it was his "1st year" by another reckoning. Compare these two claims from Insight:

*** it-1 pp. 1185-1186 Image ***

• Images in the Book of Daniel. In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship (evidently counting from the time of his conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.), the Babylonian king had a dream . . .

*** it-1 p. 463 Chronology ***

• the city fell in his 11th year (607 B.C.E.), corresponding to Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th year of actual rule (counting from his accession year in 625 B.C.E.).

So Nebuchadnezzar's accession year was both 625 and 607 according to the Insight book. Yet Grayson, Pritchard and a thousand other sources would agree that it was 605.

Also, to keep 607 in the limelight the events of 598 and 589 through 587 are sometimes tied to just 607 as the "pivotal" year. For example, note that this last siege lasted for a year and a half, and a siege prior to this was about 10 years earlier. 

*** it-2 p. 1065 Tammuz, II ***

• It was on the ninth day of this fourth month (Tammuz) that Nebuchadnezzar breached the walls of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. after an 18-month siege.

Insight often admits that the siege was dated 2 years earlier and 10/11 years earlier, but notice the shorthand sometimes preferred for referencing Jerusalem's siege:

*** it-1 p. 1242 Jackal ***

• Babylon’s siege of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. brought the stress of famine, with the result that mothers treated their own offspring cruelly. Thus Jeremiah appropriately contrasted the cruelty “of my people” with the jackals’ maternal care.—La 4:3, 10.

The point, of course, is that the one date most in question of all dates that the Society uses, is always presented as if it is the one date least in question. It is repeated 150 times in the Insight book alone. And dates that fall within the period, including 625, 624, 617, 609, 607, 539 and 537 (more likely, the actual dates 605, 604, 598, 589, 587, 539 and 538) -- these dates make up the majority, by far, of all the dates ever mentioned in the entire Insight book, including all mentions of 29 C.E. and 33 C.E. put together.

Compare the case of 607 carefully with how we deal with evidence or "no evidence" in other doctrinal matters. I thought it was very revealing. In matters like "stauros" and several others, for example, the publications don't show the same fear and avoidance of the evidence.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

Post 1786

There is much in what you say that I believe to be utter nonsense. Your views on how the FDS treats 607 BCE and its importance generally are eccentric, to say the least. WT Chronology has been consistent with its value not only in Bible Chronology but also in terms of its significance to Bible Prophecy and Theology.for after all, it introduced the 'Gentile Times'.

The evidence for 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the Exile is well established not only from the biblical perspective and its chronological data but also from NB Chronology with a little 'fine tuning'because of a shortfall or 'Gap' of twenty years. There have over many decades attempts made by our critics, some have become apostates to discredit our wondrous Chronology for such attempts began in the early sixties culminating in COJ's Gentile Times Reconsidered first published in 1983. I have examined all of these materials over the years and found these to be wanting, failing to properly recognize the 'seventy years of Jeremiah as a definite historic period of desolation of Judah, exile in/for Babylon and servitude to Babylon.

Further, our Chronology is suitably anchored to the well established pivotal date 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon thus giving this scheme much scholarly credence whereas most other schemes are based on Absolute Dates that lie outside the NB Period. This Chronology facilitates the counting backwards to Adam in 4026 BCE whereas other schemes fail to address these matters for various reasons with the exception mainly of James Ussher who provided a traditional base for our Chronology.

WT Chronology has the added strength of its simplicity and avoids much of the technical issues of Calendation that prevents many schemes from positing fixed dates for various biblical events, the best example of such confusion is the 587/86 BCE controversy which remains unresolved to this day. Also, there are many different dates assigned to the reigns of the Divided Monarchy which Edwin Thiele devoted much of his scholarship to resolve which again highlights the importance of Methodology. In contrast, our Chronology has a scheme for the Divided Monarchy that is workable and intelligible, first published in 1944 in The Kingdom Is At Hand .

The well-established date 607 BCE secures the modern date 1914 CE as the time of the birth of God's Kingdom which contextualizes the subject eschatologically in harmony with the view of prominent German Theologians in the earlier part of the 20th century who pioneered scholarship about the Kingdom. The date 1914 according to historians is the most celebrated date in our modern history and providentially it marked the end of the Gentile times again a subject on which Christendom's most prominent Clergy fixated on especially with the capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 CE.

The 'eschatological hope' of Jehovah's Witnesses is well amplified in Early Christian Historiography especially pertaining to the Lukan writings of Luke and Acts as according to Prof. Gary Trompf who writes much on Retributive Justice discussed throughout the biblical narrative. Such recent studies in Historiography, in my opinion, undergird our interpretation of the Danielic and Lukan descriptions of the 'seven times'-'Gentile Times' beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 1914 CE. In short, our Chronology has no 'dead ends' it is prophetic, build faith, adds life and flesh to biblical history. It alone works whereas all other schemes fail.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Here is a longer version of your second  Insight book quote just to clarify that it was the 11th year of Zedekiah's reign  and that Insight: was not referring to yet another  different regnal period for Nebuchadnezzar-

Yes, a lot of Witnesses are quick to deny this because they don't realize that the Watchtower has promoted two different regnal periods for Nebuchadnezzar. And it's completely unnecessary if you are willing to accept the Bible's timeline. The Bible's timeline is corroborated by archaeological evidence, too. But the Bible's timeline is not that helpful for pushing 1914, so it's adjusted here to put more emphasis on 607.

And it wasn't just done for Nebuchadnezzar. A lot of Witnesses are probably not aware that the timeline has been tampered with so that Jehoiakim has "yet another different regnal period" too.

Your quote from page 463 is actually one I was about to include because it very clearly shows some of the points I was making. Thanks. If the 11th year of Zedekiah marked a regnal period for Nebuchadnezzar that started in 607, then this really is "yet another different regnal period for Nebuchadnezzar" that started in 625. Don't you agree? The Insight book is numbering Nebuchadnezzar's reign from two different accession years: 625 and 607. Neither is correct, of course, from the perspective of the Biblical and historical evidence. The point is clearly to avoid the idea that Nebuchadnezzar was taking exiles from this early in his reign, which would lend support to the idea in Jeremiah (and Daniel) that the 70 years for Babylon in Jeremiah referred to the period of Babylon's greatest domination. Of course, Daniel also agrees with the Babylonian archaeological records here, too, which state that Babylon was taking things from Judea from the very earliest years of his reign, or even before, during his father's reign.

And, as I said, the Watchtower chronology also prefers to give Jehoiakim "yet another different regnal period" because this one also fits the Biblical and secular chronology, but does not fit the Watchtower "chronology" as well. (Here again, the Bible also fits the archaeological evidence in both cases, but this is not as important, evidently, as force-fitting 1914.) Compare these two references from "Insight."

*** it-1 p. 576 Daniel ***

• This was in Jehoiakim’s third year (as tributary king to Babylon), which third year started in the spring of 618 B.C.E. (Da 1:1)

*** it-2 p. 480 Nebuchadnezzar ***

• This took place in the fourth year of Judean King Jehoiakim (625 B.C.E.)

Counting from his first year as his accession year, Jehoiakim's third year would have been about 625 B.C.E, not 618 (both Watchtower dates) based on the date range below, where his accession year would be 628, first year 627, second year 626 and third year 625. 625 is of course Watchtower-speak for 605 the same year that Babylon beat both Assyria and Egypt making a last stand together at the battle of Carchemish.

** it-1 p. 1268 Jehoiakim ***

• Jehoiakim’s bad rule of about 11 years (628-618 B.C.E.)

The reason the Watchtower doesn't like the Bible's account here is because it would have Nebuchadnezzar beginning his devastations and depredations in Judea even earlier than 625, which would mean that the 70 years that Jeremiah speaks of for Babylon's domination would clearly be closer to 90 instead of 70 years.

But both Babylonian records and the Bible shows that the devastation began even earlier, from very near the very beginning of the 70 years that the nations would begin serving Babylon. Note:

• (2 Kings 23:36-24:1) 36 Je·hoiʹa·kim was 25 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 11 years in Jerusalem. . . . In Je·hoiʹa·kim’s days King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came against him, and Je·hoiʹa·kim became his servant for three years.. . .

Biblical and secular chronology would put the start of Jehoiakim's reign in about 608 B.C.E, which would be the earliest that Judea under Jehoiakim could have suffered depredations under Nebuchadnezzar. [And no later than 600 to account for 3 years of servitude.] (That's 608+20=628 in Watchtower chronology.)

In fact it was "early in Jehoiakim's reign" that Jeremiah already had an eye on Babylon and the destruction of Jerusalem:

*** it-1 p. 1268 Jehoiakim ***

• Early in Jehoiakim’s reign Jeremiah warned that unless the people repented, Jerusalem and her temple would be destroyed.

In fact the incursions by Egypt, Assyria and Babylon could have been nearly simultaneous for a time around 609 up through about 605 as the third year of Jehoiakim would have included the battle of Carchemish, won by Babylon, after a few years of battles in 609 when Egypt's Necho killed Judah's King Josiah, and Babylon overtook Assyria's Harran. Carchemish would would have then been in the third official year of Jehoiakim's reign. The situation fits 2 Kings 24:1-7:

• (2 Kings 24:1, 2, 7) . . .In Je·hoiʹa·kim’s days King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came against him, and Je·hoiʹa·kim became his servant for three years. However, he turned against him and rebelled. 2 Then Jehovah began to send against him marauder bands of Chal·deʹans, Syrians, Moʹab·ites, and Amʹmon·ites.. . . Never again did the king of Egypt venture out of his land, for the king of Babylon had taken all that belonged to the king of Egypt, from the Wadi of Egypt up to the Eu·phraʹtes River.

In those years from 609 through 605, Egypt and Assyria are finally boxed in and Babylon is the primary, ascendant power, having toppled Assyria as the power to fear back in 609, and having been the strongest power for Judea to fear since that date.

And, as mentioned, even though the Watchtower publications cannot accept it, we have the Biblical statement in Daniel which is corroborated in the Babylonian Chronicles:

• (Daniel 1:1-4) 1 In the third year of the kingship of King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah, King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. 2 In time Jehovah gave King Je·hoiʹa·kim of Judah into his hand, along with some of the utensils of the house of the true God, and he brought them to the land of Shiʹnar to the house of his god. He placed the utensils in the treasury of his god. 3 Then the king ordered Ashʹpe·naz his chief court official to bring some of the Israelites, including those of royal and noble descent. 4 They were to be youths without any defect, of good appearance, endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and discernment, and capable of serving in the king’s palace.. .

Notice that this is a perfect fit for 605 B.C.E. (625 Watchtower date), even though the Watchtower dating scheme does not like the term "third year of Jehoiakim" here. So it has to be reinterpreted in the Watchtower as closer to the end, not the beginning of Jehoiakim's reign.

A portion of the archaeological evidence is mentioned in Insight, where Hattu clearly includes Judea, and 625 is "Watchtower-speak" for 605, and 624 is 604:

*** it-2 p. 480 Nebuchadnezzar ***

• Historical notices in cuneiform inscriptions presently available about Nebuchadnezzar somewhat supplement the Bible record. They state that it was in the 19th year of Nabopolassar’s reign that he assembled his army, as did his son Nebuchadnezzar, then crown prince. Both armies evidently functioned independently, and after Nabopolassar went back to Babylon within a month’s time, Nebuchadnezzar successfully warred in mountainous territory, later returning to Babylon with much spoil. During the 21st year of Nabopolassar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar marched with the Babylonian army to Carchemish, there to fight against the Egyptians. He led his forces to victory. This took place in the fourth year of Judean King Jehoiakim (625 B.C.E.).—Jer 46:2.

  The inscriptions further show that news of his father’s death brought Nebuchadnezzar back to Babylon, and on the first of Elul (August-September), he ascended the throne. In this his accession year he returned to Hattu, and “in the month Shebat [January-February, 624 B.C.E.] he took the vast booty of Hattu to Babylon.” (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 100) In 624 B.C.E., in the first official year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar again led his forces through Hattu; he captured and sacked the Philistine city of Ashkelon. During his second, third, and fourth years as king he conducted additional campaigns in Hattu, and evidently in the fourth year he made Judean King Jehoiakim his vassal. (2Ki 24:1)

 

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

WT Chronology has been consistent with its value not only in Bible Chronology but also in terms of its significance to Bible Prophecy and Theology.for after all, it introduced the 'Gentile Times'.

It's fine to believe this, but it's false to claim that the evidence supports it. We have already gone through dozens of examples showing that the Watchtower's chronology is inconsistent. Of course, even more inconsistency is introduced through mixing up the Gentile Times into this. You may have missed previous discussions on that particular topic.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The evidence for 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the Exile is well established not only from the biblical perspective and its chronological data but also from NB Chronology with a little 'fine tuning'because of a shortfall or 'Gap' of twenty years.

The Bible chronology fits the archaeological evidence from NB chronology. There is no evidence for 607. To get anywhere near 607 you have to accept 539, which you have no right to do if you are going to reject 539 by claiming that Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year was 607. If you are honest, you are forced to reject 539 if you accept 607. You can't cherry pick a range of dates that are interwoven and interlocked through tens of thousands of tablets and at least 10 other completely independent lines of evidence. You can claim whatever you want, but you'd have to show evidence if you are honest.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Further, our Chronology is suitably anchored to the well established pivotal date 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon thus giving this scheme much scholarly credence whereas most other schemes are based on Absolute Dates that lie outside the NB Period.

Your chronology is not at all anchored to 539. By choosing 607 as Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year you have rejected 539. Claiming you still want it after you reject it is dishonest. This is probably a difficult concept for anyone who has not really studied the data, and I suspect now, for many reasons, that you have never studied the data. This would explain why you have failed to present or counter any evidence and have merely repeated the mistaken logic and declared it "wondrous."

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

WT Chronology has the added strength of its simplicity and avoids much of the technical issues of Calendation that prevents many schemes from positing fixed dates for various biblical events, the best example of such confusion is the 587/86 BCE controversy which remains unresolved to this day.

Your repetition of this particular point tells me again that you have not paid attention even to the Watchtower's explanation or have decided to use the fact that the Bible gives two different counting methods as an opportunity to try to bluster those who will not look into it for themselves. Bluster in this case would be dishonest, but you have failed to give any evidence that you mean to do anything else.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

In contrast, our Chronology has a scheme for the Divided Monarchy that is workable and intelligible, first published in 1944 in The Kingdom Is At Hand .

That's fine. But it's meaningless with respect to the Watchtower's misuse of the NB period which is unintelligible and unworkable.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The well-established date 607 BCE secures the modern date 1914 CE as the time of the birth of God's Kingdom which contextualizes the subject eschatologically in harmony with the view of prominent German Theologians in the earlier part of the 20th century who pioneered scholarship about the Kingdom.

The date 607 is not well-established until at least a tiny piece of evidence can be shown. You have failed to show evidence, but you apparently wish to continue blustering that it is "wondrous" and "well-established." Although you might have a doctrine that makes the same mistakes of prominent German theologians, it is still out of harmony with the words of Jesus. Jesus said that the parousia would come as a surprise and that the times and seasons were only in the Father's jurisdiction. Besides it is even out of harmony with the German theologians in that the Watchtower tied the predictions for 1914 with the reinstatement of the Israelite nation and the demise of all other nations and institutions in 1914. The failure of Israel to dominate in 1914 showed that the Gentile Times prediction failed. John Aquila Brown did not tie the Gentile Times to the 2,520 years having noticed that Revelation only ties the number 1,260 to Jesus words about the Gentile Times. The Bible never mentions "SEVEN Gentile Times." (The closest is Revelation's mention of THREE AND ONE-HALF Gentile Times.)

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The date 1914 according to historians is the most celebrated date in our modern history and providentially it marked the end of the Gentile times again a subject on which Christendom's most prominent Clergy fixated on especially with the capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 CE.

The capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 is a direct admission of the failure of the Gentile Times doctrine. If the Gentile Times had truly ended in 1914, there would be no Gentile forces to capture Jerusalem after 1914. Russell's fixation on the topic of the Jews repatriation to Palestine (Zionism) made him (in)famous, but all those predictions failed, and Rutherford finally dropped them all after 1926.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Such recent studies in Historiography, in my opinion, undergird our interpretation of the Danielic and Lukan descriptions of the 'seven times'-'Gentile Times' beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 1914 CE.

His study doesn't support our theory at all. Also, Jesus made it clear that the Gentile Times had not started before his own day which would be necessary for the Watchtower's theory to work. More importantly, the Bible undermines the Watchtower's theory. 607 is pseudo-archaeology, but it fails on every other point, too.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

In short, our Chronology has no 'dead ends' it is prophetic, build faith, adds life and flesh to biblical history. It alone works whereas all other schemes fail.

Jesus said that this kind of prophecy would be wrong, so I assume that if it builds faith, it must be the wrong kind of faith. Faith in a date, perhaps. Paul said we need nothing to be written to us about dates because the parousia comes as a surprise, like a thief in the night. And the worst part has been all the dead ends that have resulted from our chronological speculations over the years. So far, all the schemes have failed. It's surely better to listen to words of Jesus. He said that if someone claims to be able to show that the end is near, not to go after him. He said that no one would know the day or the hour. He said the parousia will be as sudden as visible as lightning. Surely, we have so many more valuable doctrines to focus on rather than disrespectfully toying with these words of Jesus.

• (2 Peter 3:8-15) 8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, . . . 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence [PAROUSIA] of the day of Jehovah, t. . . .14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU,

[Witness]

On 12/29/2017 at 10:44 PM, Arauna said:

By yourself or from these same people that you now condemn and think you have more special insight than they.....

I was hoping you would provide scriptures with your opinions.  In what you did provide to Anna, do you realize that the “house of the God of Jacob” is God’s Temple?  They are Zion, the “New Jerusalem”, not under Zion.  1 Pet 2:5; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 7:15    If you take just a moment and read the verses you will see that God’s dwelling is within the hearts of faithful anointed ones.  “New Jerusalem” is the Bride/priesthood.   Rev 21:2,3;3:12  Jesus made it very clear that there is no earthly “mountain” where worship is given; but only “in spirit and truth”.    John 4:23,24

On 12/29/2017 at 10:44 PM, Arauna said:

and there is hate behind your words for the slave... calling them the lawless one!

I never said the GB was the “man of lawlessness”, although they practice “lawlessness” by allowing God’s servants to be “trampled” upon.  Dan 8:9-14   I said it is the elder body/”Gentile” Beast from the Sea.  They are directed by the GB to wield power over God’s anointed ones – and all.  Enough power to disfellowship the GB’s “fellow slaves” for refusing to believe in an organization as Zion, just one of the many lies generated by a “false prophet”.  Rev 13:1,7,11,15  I do believe we have gone through all of this before, under another topic.

On 12/29/2017 at 10:44 PM, Arauna said:

You do not even understand the history of Christianity.

How did you reach that summation when we haven’t touched on it?  Is it because I don’t seek a date, or pursue chronology to fabricate 1914?

I do hope the “OCD” tendencies that your friend has developed is because of realizing Jesus’ words hold more power than those of a Wicked Slave.  Matt 7:13,14; Matt 24:48-51  Perhaps her/his vision has finally come into focus.  Luke 12:51; 1 Pet 2:21; Mark 8:35

I noticed you didn’t respond to 2 Thess 2:1-12; how unfaithful anointed ones proclaim the “day of our Lord”, and how the “man of lawlessness” “sits” in the Temple of God; and how the two are connected. I will be happy to explain the true meaning of the Great Crowd, once we get passed this, and as a new thread; if you like.

While you exonerate an organization (Rev 13:4), I exonerate God’s Son as the only source of salvation.  Acts 4:12   And along with His Son, I exonerate the true God and Father.  Ps 113:5-9  Scriptures do not express that I should give allegiance to any earthly organization. Nor does Jesus.  John 4:13,14,21-24 The anointed inside the organization are ‘held hostage’ by the Beast. I was also, caught with a bait of initial truth and brought in to the final testing ground of Satan’s making.   Luke 22:31  And God allows his people to face it.  2 Thess 2:9-12

Awake, awake, Zion,

    clothe yourself with strength! (Rev 12:1)

Put on your garments of splendor,

    Jerusalem, the holy city.

The uncircumcised and defiled

    will not enter you again. (Rev 22:15; 21:27;11:2; Mark 13:14)

Shake off your dust;

    rise up (Isa 60:1), sit enthroned, Jerusalem.

Free yourself from the chains on your neck,

    Daughter Zion, now a captive."  Isa 52:1,2

I hope you can see that this does not imply “organization” but anointed individuals making up a whole; the Temple of God. Fear tactics and promise of “peace and security” keep “Zion” captive under the “wicked slave”.  Only a remnant will “awake” and be brave enough to listen to Christ.   Amos 7:1-3; Isa 10:10; 1 Thess 5:3; Rev 14:7; 7:10

On 12/29/2017 at 10:44 PM, Arauna said:

and as I said before - the BIG picture is missing from your view (very short-sighted views, accusative and critical).

 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:13,14

If you fix your eyes on Satan’s world to see “SIGNS” of the coming of Christ, you are indeed, short-sighted.  Matt 16:2,3  This is not “accusative or critical” it is based on scripture.

On 12/29/2017 at 10:44 PM, Arauna said:

I would also like to meet with them so I can do field service as the bible indicates will be done in the "entire world " for FREE in the time of the end (matt 24:14). 

Nothing comes free connected with the Watchtower.  Once an individual takes the bait and enters, it is imperative to dedicate oneself to the organization.  One becomes pidgeon-holed by a title and clicked into a hierarchy, either as acceptable or not acceptable.  The organization requires your labor to uphold physical treasures, contrary to Jesus’ admonition.  Matt 6:19-21   Every conceivable way to extract money is presented to the newcomer – from “ice cream money” to the title of one’s house; even the appalling attempt to gain money from The Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation to be used by the organization!

The Watchtower is not the early temple where God’s spirit dwelled and the place of worship; but it is where God’s spiritual Temple (1 Cor 3:16,17) is trampled upon. Matt 24:15   It is an invented corporation fulfilling the selfish desires of men, and a god that requires upkeep. 

The Father requires exclusive devotion, does He not?  Ex 20:4,5; Matt 22:36,37; Rom 1;21,22,25

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26  "As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." 

But of course, this is not what is taught.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”  John 8:31-33 

Living water does not come from an organization polluted by Satan’s world.  It comes from Christ. John 7:38  Truly, that is “good news”.

 

[Arauna]

Speaking to you is like speaking to a Muslim...... no proper chronology - and scriptures applied to elevate your own form of belief ...... and of course the constant OCD 'accusations'.    

You expect me to believe that an isolated person sitting in a room somewhere and touting tons of scriptures out of context (too many to address here and waste my time ) is the true light from God......

If you are part of a group of so-called enlightened ones (the truly 'clean' people of god as you are presenting yourself) - like you, they must be scattered on the earth in isolated locations - Question: how can they accomplish the preaching work which will be done in an organized way to ALL the earth before the end comes? Jehovah is a god of order not disorder....      

I have asked this kind of question before and you do not answer me: where is the nation or the great crowd you have helped to produce.....  I see you are not answering any of these kind of questions but instead you start quoting scriptures to try and indicate how corrupt and domineering the slave is.  

There is no logic in what you put forward....   and Jehovah is very logical.    The muslims believe that Jesus is going to come back in the flesh to fight the war with the Jews and then he is going to die..... no reason given for the future death   (he did not die before because God miraculously saved him).... just like that- no reasons given why Jesus did not die before and will have to come and die in future - no proper chronology that fit into each other  - and one is expected to accept it because he is Allah (no logic).  

Jehovah is not illogical.  Your chronology has NO logic..... it does not fit.... and half the prophecies can be thrown out with the way you present the dates. (Your way of thinking is to set yourself as a highly enlightened isolated member of the 144,000 who has been trod on by the rest of your brothers.....and your special insight has not been accepted) 

Chronology is important and also the reasons why Jehovah did every action (nothing was without an extremely good reason) - especially when dealing with Muslims one has to bring out the logic of each action of Jehovah.  Why does Jehovah have a nation on earth today who is being trained as future subjects - and who is training them?  isolated individuals?

You are living in a bubble because the information you give is as inconsistent as the teachings in the Qur'an - it has all the hallmarks of someone who is using existing scriptures to promote their own trajectory - just like Mohammad - who used the Talmud and gospels to project his own version of the true reality.