607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

he capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 is a direct admission of the failure of the Gentile Times doctrine. If the Gentile Times had truly ended in 1914, there would be no Gentile forces to capture Jerusalem after 1914.

This is not about the "earthly Jerusalem"  it was about an establishment of the kingdom in 'heaven' - which was an earthly kingdom before in the time of Israel - when Sedekia was the last king.

This is the kind of reasoning that mixes up the earthly Jerusalem (which was destroyed for a second time in 70CE ) - with the establishment of the "heavenly" kingdom.   When you come up against this type of reasoning (which is illogical) - what is there to say..... I just rest my case. 

And these people will be adamant that there is no proof for 607 and will quote all the defective sources to prove their case.  It reminds me of the Christians of this world who  believe that Israel has a major place in the outworking of God's purpose in future just because fleshly israel we re-established in 1948. 

Any case - referring to Russel - again and again - when this group of people were the  (Elijah) who prepared the way for the slave in 1914 - as brought out in our new publication....  we have surely had much more light since then.......  as signs since 1914 has proved.

Any case - please answer:  When is the fulfillment of  Revelation 12: 7-13. No long answer needed ..... just give short answer - please. 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Short answer .....

 

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is not about the "earthly Jerusalem"  it was about an establishment of the kingdom in 'heaven' - which was an earthly kingdom before in the time of Israel - when Sedekia was the last king.

I agree. I don't know why, but @scholar JW and even some of the accounts tied to @AllenSmith have brought up this old idea that the 1914 Gentile Times doctrine was also proved to be correct through Zionist activities. I know that some people still believe this, but clearly you and I do not, and the Watchtower publications have provided a lot of good scriptural information to explain why it's not about earthly Jerusalem.

I'm guessing that "scholar JW" and "Allen Smith" bring it up because they are aware that this was the meaning of "Gentile Times" prior to 1914, and they realize that in order to say that we predicted it in advance, that something should have happened to earthly Israel. After all, the only prediction about 1914 that we can still claim to have gotten right from "decades in advance" of 1914 is the prediction that the Gentile Times would end that year. All the predictions that 1914 would be the end, and not the beginning of the times of distress had to finally be thrown away. All we had to do, of course, is change the meaning of "Gentile Times" so we could claim that we at least got that part right. There is a level of hubris, presumptuousness, haughtiness, ego, and pride which has always been a part of Bible prophecy predictions. They fail 99% of the time, which then results in either humility or dishonesty. You can guess what most religious leaders choose.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

And these people will be adamant that there is no proof for 607 and will quote all the defective sources to prove their case.

Every honest person who has looked carefully at the evidence has admitted that there is no proof for 607. If you read the "Chronology" article in the Insight book more carefully, you will realize that even the WTS is admitting that they are basing their own belief about the secular date 607 on the same defective sources. It has nothing to do with a belief related to fleshly Israel in modern times.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Any case - referring to Russel - again and again - when this group of people were the  (Elijah) who prepared the way for the slave in 1914 - as brought out in our new publication.

Yes, Russell is being brought up again and again in the publications. A kind of resurgence especially since the 2014 centenary. I'm in favor of learning from the past so as not to repeat mistakes, to choose the good and discard the bad, and learn humility, and learn how Jehovah can accomplish his purposes through imperfect people, often in ways they don't even understand at the time. We can appreciate the blessings they enjoyed, especially as they overcame so many obstacles as a very small group which has now grown to millions. But I am not in favor of re-writing history and putting a false spin on it just so we can try to attach a measure of that success to ourselves. It's like a person who longs for the days of old, their "glory days" which is fine up to a point, but loses its good, encouraging effect when they start enhancing that history with "adjusted" stories that sound more impressive.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Any case - please answer:  When is the fulfillment of  Revelation 12: 7-13. No long answer needed ..... just give short answer - please. 

Revelation was written to be an encouragement in all time periods when Christians sigh and groan through the present system of things, filled with war, pestilence, famine and death, and still therefore eagerly call out "Come! Lord Jesus."

Christians were given a "taste" of the glory of Jesus' kingship during the activities and proofs of the first century, and that glimpse should be enough for us to realize that we don't need to know everything that is going on behind the scenes in order to "persevere" until Jesus is manifested again at the end, the parousia (sudden, highly visible royal visitation) the synteleia (final conclusion; end of all things), the manifestation, the revelation, the judgment. He appeared "once for all time" as King and Priest according to the manner of Melchizedek, King and Priest. Revelation provides a vision, based on the glimpses of the glory revealed in the first century, and reveals how much greater and more real that glory must be in the "behind-the-scenes" heavenly enactments of those events, both past, present and future. In this way, Revelation brings the promises even closer to us so we can keep it close in mind.

Revelation is a parallel, in vision form, to the same admonition to endure to the end that we get in many other passages of scripture which are not in vision form. For example:

• (1 Timothy 6:11-16) 11 However, you, O man of God, flee from these things. But pursue righteousness, godly devotion, faith, love, endurance, and mildness. 12 Fight the fine fight of the faith; get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses. 13 Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

Note that the foundation here is that Jesus is already King of Kings [same point made in Revelation 1:5; 17:12], yet we continue to endure faithfully until a future manifestion or revelation of that same Kingship, when it can again be said that "Jehovah has become King!" based on the fulfilled promise of the Kingdom through Christ when he battles the nations, brings them to ruin [true End of Gentile Times], judging and rewarding the resurrected dead.

• (Revelation 11:17, 18) . . .“We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

Revelation 12 is this same history of Jesus' appointment and divine protection in vision form, using Biblical imagery from the past. It provides assurance that the promises will come no matter what obstacles arise, even death. Here is the same promise in non-vision form:

• (Romans 8:31-39) 31 What, then, are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who will be against us? 32 Since he did not even spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, will he not also, along with him, kindly give us all other things? 33 Who will file accusation against God’s chosen ones? God is the One who declares them righteous. 34 Who will condemn them? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, more than that the one who was raised up, who is at the right hand of God and who also pleads for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 Just as it is written: “For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we have been accounted as sheep for slaughtering.” 37 On the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious through the one who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That "short period of time" might make sense to you as a period of 100 or 200 years, depending on how long the overlapping generation is defined. But there is nothing in scripture that says it is one "generation," or that it is less than 2,000 years or even less than 1 year. Perhaps it is the same time period that is also called "one hour" as the kingdoms being brought to ruin think that they must cooperate against the Lamb if they are to have any chance of survival:

• (Revelation 17:12-14) 12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

I do not claim that this way of reading Revelation is the right way or true way, but it brings me comfort and encouragement, probably in a similar way to the way in which it brought comfort and encouragement to the first readers of Revelation in Ephesus, Pergamum, etc. I don't claim to know any more about the signs or the times and seasons than they did. If you find comfort in believing that Jesus took his full power and kingship in 1914, that's fine, too. Although I'm sure that, by comparison, you will be in even more awe of the power of that kingdom over the times of the gentile nations when that power is more fully manifested. And I'm sure you appreciate the glimpses of that power and glory that Jesus revealed in the past as recorded in scripture. So in this we are not so different, and I do not think there is any value in demeaning whatever meaning you currently give to this intermediate manifestation of that kingdom in 1914.

But with respect to honesty about the past, we do know that there is no evidence for the date 607. But, if one wishes, they can still find other reasons to look back at 1914. For many of us, I can tell it gives us a sense of superiority and self-righteousness that we, of all peoples, were able to predict 1914, decades in advance. But exactly what were we able to predict?

We were able to predict that it meant Armageddon would be completed in the surrounding months, that the great tribulation would be completed, and that it would usher in a time of peace before 1915. And, as the end of the times of power given to the nations (Gentile Times) it would also see the collapse into chaos of all nations and political institutions of all kinds except for the nation of Israel -- the Gentiles had had truly their day. It was "the end of the World" in that sense. So, in order to continue to be right and not admit a failure, we (WTS) loudly proclaimed that the "World had ended in 1914." That worked well through the war, but soon lost its value as 100% of the predictions for 1918 failed, too. We continued to say that Armageddon had actually started in 1914, because all we had to do was keep extending the meaning of Armageddon and weakening its Biblical meaning so that it was more related to the fight between "Labor and Capital." We also had a clever reason for continuing to say that the "great tribulation" had started in 1914, but that the break in the tribulation was the same one Jesus predicted saying that the days were cut short "on account of the chosen ones." This explanation was in effect when I was baptized, and didn't change until a few years later:

*** w99 5/1 p. 16 par. 11 “Let the Reader Use Discernment” ***

• However, in later years we have come to see things differently. On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the “Peace on Earth” International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave an electrifying talk. In reviewing the previous understanding of Jesus’ prophecy, Brother Franz said: “The explanation was given that the ‘great tribulation’ had begun in 1914 C.E. and that it was not allowed to run its full course then but God stopped World War I in November of 1918. From then on God was allowing an interval for the activity of his anointed remnant of elect Christians before he let the final part of the ‘great tribulation’ resume at the battle of Armageddon.”

Now, the only remaining portion of the prediction that we claim we got right was the prediction that the Gentile Times would end in 1914. We still claim that we were right about that, but had to change the definition of the term "Gentile Times" in order to keep claiming that we at least got that part right.

So, hopefully, you can see that I am only interested in the  repeated misuse of the doctrine by which we like to claim superiority because we wish to be "right at all costs." If it's at the cost of honesty and integrity, we should clean it up. I wonder how many people that we talk to in our ministry have been able to see through the false claims and hubris and this becomes the reason they give no further respect for the wonderful truths that we also could share with them.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

Ppst 1789

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

's fine to believe this, but it's false to claim that the evidence supports it. We have already gone through dozens of examples showing that the Watchtower's chronology is inconsistent. Of course, even more inconsistency is introduced through mixing up the Gentile Times into this. You may have missed previous discussions on that particular topic.

2

It is not false to claim that evidence supports 607 BCE. The calculation is simple, derived from the biblical data with a well recognized pivotal date and is consistent with the NB period by the simple insertion of 20 years to bring reconcile both schemes of chronology.. You do not like this to be the case because you do not like this methodology but that is your problem not mine. There is inconsistency in WT Chronology just your misreading the WT publications. The Gentile Times is a valid prophetic period long recognized by many Bible Students.

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The Bible chronology fits the archaeological evidence from NB chronology. There is no evidence for 607. To get anywhere near 607 you have to accept 539, which you have no right to do if you are going to reject 539 by claiming that Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year was 607. If you are honest, you are forced to reject 539 if you accept 607. You can't cherry pick a range of dates that are interwoven and interlocked through tens of thousands of tablets and at least 10 other completely independent lines of evidence. You can claim whatever you want, but you'd have to show evidence if you are honest.

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Bible Chronology can only fit NB Chronology if the Gap of 20 years is identified and inserted into the period in order to harmonize both systems. There is abundant evidence for 607 BCE and to say otherwise is simply displays ignorance or hubris. The pivotal date or anchor date is essential for any Chronology so we have wisely selected 539 BCE and we have every right to make such a choice because of the Methodology adopted by WT scholars.The matter of 'cherry-picking' dates is your problem, not mine for we have no need for such nonsense.Yes we can all make claims but one must be honest and follow the evidence where it leads, I have done just that and I have determined by means of an examination of all of the facts that 607 BCE is on the money.

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16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Your chronology is not at all anchored to 539. By choosing 607 as Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year you have rejected 539. Claiming you still want it after you reject it is dishonest. This is probably a difficult concept for anyone who has not really studied the data, and I suspect now, for many reasons, that you have never studied the data. This would explain why you have failed to present or counter any evidence and have merely repeated the mistaken logic and declared it "wondrous."

22 hours ago, scholar JW said:

WT Chronology is indeed anchored to 539 BCE just read our publications. The biblical data makes mention of Neb's 18th and 19th year in connection of the Fall of Jerusalem and we have no difficulty with using both in calculating 607 BCE. In contrast, our critics simply cannot reconcile the 18/19th years thus cannot determine the precise date for the Fall with the vague 586/587 BCE scenario. What a joke!!!

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Your repetition of this particular point tells me again that you have not paid attention even to the Watchtower's explanation or have decided to use the fact that the Bible gives two different counting methods as an opportunity to try to bluster those who will not look into it for themselves. Bluster in this case would be dishonest, but you have failed to give any evidence that you mean to do anything else

Simplicity is everything in science otherwise you have gobblygook. The WT publications have explained to its readers the different dating systems, counting methodology, time units, different calenders etc.which any half decent work on Chronology would do. There is no need to bluster as all of these matters are explained in full and simply so that the reader can work out the matters himself.

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That's fine. But it's meaningless with respect to the Watchtower's misuse of the NB period which is unintelligible and unworkable.

It is a matter of competence and by means of our tabulation of the Divided Monarchy, we can prove that we have used the biblical data correctly for most other scholars present widely different schemes for the Divided Monarchy. If a scholar cannot get this right then how can one be trusted with a much shorter period =NB Period which in fact overlaps the latter phase of the Divided Monarchy. Also problematic is a simple fact that there is a missing 20 years found when one compares both periods of history.

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The date 607 is not well-established until at least a tiny piece of evidence can be shown. You have failed to show evidence, but you apparently wish to continue blustering that it is "wondrous" and "well-established." Although you might have a doctrine that makes the same mistakes of prominent German theologians, it is still out of harmony with the words of Jesus. Jesus said that the parousia would come as a surprise and that the times and seasons were only in the Father's jurisdiction. Besides it is even out of harmony with the German theologians in that the Watchtower tied the predictions for 1914 with the reinstatement of the Israelite nation and the demise of all other nations and institutions in 1914. The failure of Israel to dominate in 1914 showed that the Gentile Times prediction failed. John Aquila Brown did not tie the Gentile Times to the 2,520 years having noticed that Revelation only ties the number 1,260 to Jesus words about the Gentile Times. The Bible never mentions "SEVEN Gentile Times." (The closest is Revelation's mention of THREE AND ONE-HALF Gentile Times.

The date 607 is well established despite your protestations to the contrary. The evidence has long been presented simply in our publications easily understood by the reader. The Gentile Times was mentioned by Jesus and its period expired in 1914 and was recognized by leading clergy who equated the fact of the matter to the events of Jerusalem in 1917. However, Bible Students correctly applied those 'times' to the Kingdom of Heaven when in fact about that time of 1914, German theologians had casted the Kingdom in an eschatological context which of course can be associated with 1914 and its significance both to modern history but to Bible Prophecy as discussed by Daniel and later cited by our Lord Jesus. Interestingly, John Aquila Brown had first linked the words of our Master and Saviour in Luke 21;24 with the 'seven times' of Daniel ch.4.which is the basis of our doctrine today. You are correct the Bible does not refer to 'seven Gentile Times' but to the Lukan 'Gentile Times' which is equated to the Danielic 'seven times'.

 

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The capture of Jerusalem by Allied forces in 1917 is a direct admission of the failure of the Gentile Times doctrine. If the Gentile Times had truly ended in 1914, there would be no Gentile forces to capture Jerusalem after 1914. Russell's fixation on the topic of the Jews repatriation to Palestine (Zionism) made him (in)famous, but all those predictions failed, and Rutherford finally dropped them all after 1926

The capture of Jerusalem in 1917 had nothing to do with the outworking of the Gentile Times for it had expired three years earlier but it was the interpretation of many prominent clergy

 

is  that it was recognized by some clergy  the validity of the Gentile Times doctrine even if not fully understood as was the case of the early Bible Students.

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

His study doesn't support our theory at all. Also, Jesus made it clear that the Gentile Times had not started before his own day which would be necessary for the Watchtower's theory to work. More importantly, the Bible undermines the Watchtower's theory. 607 is pseudo-archaeology, but it fails on every other point, too

Jesu s' words make it perfectly that the Gentile Times had begun much earlier according to Daniel's prophecy as shown by the Greek tense of the verb used by Him. The date 607 BCE does not represent pseudo archaeology but in fact harmonizes well with modern biblical archaeology especially in reference to the 'Myth of the Empty Land' hypothesis.

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus said that this kind of prophecy would be wrong, so I assume that if it builds faith, it must be the wrong kind of faith. Faith in a date, perhaps. Paul said we need nothing to be written to us about dates because the parousia comes as a surprise, like a thief in the night. And the worst part has been all the dead ends that have resulted from our chronological speculations over the years. So far, all the schemes have failed. It's surely better to listen to words of Jesus. He said that if someone claims to be able to show that the end is near, not to go after him. He said that no one would know the day or the hour. He said the parousia will be as sudden as visible as lightning. Surely, we have so many more valuable doctrines to focus on rather than disrespectfully toying with these words of Jesus.

• (2 Peter 3:8-15) 8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, . . . 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence [PAROUSIA] of the day of Jehovah, t. . . .14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU,

Our wondrous Cable of Chronology is valid and accurate well supported in the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy. It anchors the Parousia which began in 1914 CE as we patiently heed the coming of sweet Jesus our beloved Lord and Master who during His Parousia beginning in the celebrated year of 1914 has overseen the work of the true Church during the time of Harvest.

scholar JW

Please pardon any scripting or posting errors

[Anna]

On 12/30/2017 at 1:44 AM, Arauna said:

On 12/29/2017 at 7:34 PM, Anna said:

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest?

No, but putting all your time and energy (and long debates) into dates which were synchronized with Egyptian dates (and trusting these dates)  is an empty exercise like running after fluff ...   Trying to prove that these dates are more accurate than those which have given us 1914 - and the purpose of all of this?  To prove that the slave in NOT the slave! ...   

 

I think you might be coming to rash conclusions when you say those trying to disprove 1914 are doing so only to discredit the Slave. I am not saying no one does that, but I feel that those who honestly try to understand WT dates, and then find these dates faulty, do it the other way around. They begin to distrust the Slave on the evidence of their findings. Please don't attack me for saying this as I myself have not found proof for 607 or 587 either way. I am in a completely privileged neutral zone. I am neither for nor against. One thing I have noticed though, and excuse me if I am wrong,  (I may have missed your other posts), but it seems you have not presented any solid counter argument  against  587, only your feelings in that it's like "running after fluff", and criticism and motives of those who present arguments against 607. What you say would not stand up in a trial at all.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....

On 12/30/2017 at 1:44 AM, Arauna said:

As I said before - this slave has produced a NATION on earth which has developed such a spirit of goodwill that they are doing the preaching work for FREE.  (To me, this is a miracle if one compares that to what is going on in the world today under secular and religious regimes). They are educating people to follow the principles of Jehovah without police having to patrol the streets.   These people are being prepared as citizens of a new world where no-one will be telling another what to do. Our facilitators on earth will only serve - not rule.  Complete freedom!  Jehovah will remove people who pose a further threat to his purpose during the 1000 years - the judgment day! 

Social studies 101..... Many of the great philosophers of the past were trying to create such an utopia and failed. (French revolution and Russian revolution are 2 examples).  Today JWs are indicating that a nation can live -in a wicked world- and show good intentions (altruism - without wanting anything back)  to other human beings without having a visible government over them.  ALL by free will!

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on this at all.

What I find fascinating, and puzzling at the same time though, is how some friends will immediately class others as defectors if they do not believe in 607 or 1914. To give an example, on another forum, one poster made the comment that we should be wary of this one particular JW scholar because he does not support 607. Why it is so imperative to you and others, that in order to belong to this NATION, one has to believe in some specific date? In practical terms, what on earth is the saving attribute of a date? Yes, I know it was supposed to be the establishment of God's kingdom, which is the instrument by which all things will be reconciled to God, but come on, are we to be SO fixated on a date where believing in it or not is the difference between being saved or damned? God's kingdom will accomplish all those things regardless of the date it is established, won't it? As was pointed out quite clearly in the 2017 convention video, we are dedicated to Jehovah God, not a date! Surely a date has no baring on your sentiments above about the NATION ?

I think that if beginning today, the Slave never mentioned the dates 607 or 1914  again, but merely the destruction of Jerusalem, and  God's Kingdom, no one would be upset and think we have gone apostate. Probably no one but a few who are keyed in, and those at Bethel, would even notice. In fact, the new generation of Witnesses as I have observed does not even believe Armageddon will come any time soon. (I have heard some young ones speculate around 50 years). And the generation who believed their children would not grow up in this system, but who have grand children now, have reconciled themselves with the possibility that they will die before Armageddon comes. I think this is good. Because remember, we serve Jehovah, not a date. Abraham never saw the complete fulfillment of the promise made to him either, what makes us think we have to? Don't get me wrong, it would be nice of course, but I refuse to get anxious  for a date, or even an approximate time period. You have probably seen me quote a father talking to his daughter saying "plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime but lead your life as if it will come tomorrow". The father is long dead, and the daughter possibly too, as she was born in 1923. You can read her life story in  w04 12.1 Trusting in Jehovah’s Loving Care.

In any case, all this talk about the gentile times calculations are not something Russell came up with. The originator of these calculations was William Miller of the second Adventists. (of course there were others even before him, but Russell associated with Miller). So if we go and dig down to the grass roots, to find the beginning of this idea,  really, we have William Miller to thank for it. But I'm not quite comfortable with that thought. I'm not comfortable with the thought that 1914 evolved from one of the branches of Christendom!

http://www.readex.com/blog/calculating-second-coming-19th-century-america-selected-items-american-pamphlets-1820-1922

I am sure you will agree that because the Bible gives us some numbers and a chronology, it has forever been the quest of believing mankind since the death of Christ, to crack the code of His promised second coming. Especially with the beginning of Adventist movements folks have been trying to figure out the key to WHEN. Russell and his associates were also interested in when. As you probably know, Russell even used the Pyramids to try to calculate Christ's second coming. So the whole period of the Second Awakening revival was focused on figuring all this out. And from that fertile ground came OUR "magical" dates. In fact if you look,  there have been and are "magical" dates floating around all the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ

 

 

 

[Anna]

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

Speaking to you is like speaking to a Muslim..

Please, when you address someone specifically, it would be helpful if you mentioned who, otherwise it gets confusing. Thanks!

[scholar JW]

Anna

I appreciate your comments in your last post on Chronology and particular the attitude of the present day Witnesses to the End. However, I disagree with your comment about the relevance of dates particularly such as the 607/ 587-86BCE controversy and 1914 CE. Although, Chronology should not become an ' Article of Faith' as part of some Creed or as primary doctrine nevertheless there are several good reasons for Christians or Bible Students to be interested and challenged by such an "extremely complex and almost esoteric field" of study(Finegan, Handbook Of Biblical Chronology , 1964, p.v). Jack Finegan lists several reasons for the importance of Dates and Chronology as:

1. To address the concern to comprehend the whole sweep of God's administration of the world and the world's end.

2, To demonstrate the high antiquity of biblical traditions over against pagan ones or in short the Sacred versus the Profane.

3. To show the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy

4. To determine the date of Church festivals and in our case the date of the Memorial

These key four points are sourced as follows (op.cit.p.139, pars.230-233)

scholar JW

University of Sydney

[Anna]

19 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

.....several good reasons for Christians or Bible Students to be interested and challenged by such an "extremely complex and almost esoteric field" of study......

......lists several reasons for the importance of Dates and Chronology as:

1. To address the concern to comprehend the whole sweep of God's administration of the world and the world's end.

2, To demonstrate the high antiquity of biblical traditions over against pagan ones or in short the Sacred versus the Profane.

3. To show the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy

4. To determine the date of Church festivals and in our case the date of the Memorial

I agree completely, but this is just it, and here is the problem: How many friends that you know actually do this?? As opposed to how many just accept the information they are presented with by the organization? How many friends that you know can actually explain 607 and 1914? Be honest?

[scholar JW]

 

Anna

Well, I did say that Chronology is 'extremely complex subject so it is not surprising that only a very few Witnesses would be competent in explaining 607 and 1914. In fact, amongst the entire worldwide brotherhood there are possibly only two brothers who have publicly demonstrated competence in Chronology and these brothers are Rolf Furuli in Norway and Neil Mc Fadzen from Australia.

scholar JW

 

[Anna]

29 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

 

Anna

Well, I did say that Chronology is 'extremely complex subject so it is not surprising that only a very few Witnesses would be competent in explaining 607 and 1914. In fact, amongst the entire worldwide brotherhood there are possibly only two brothers who have publicly demonstrated competence in Chronology and these brothers are Rolf Furuli in Norway and Neil Mc Fadzen from Australia.

scholar JW

 

Ok. So how is what you said previously even relevant then? And does it make sense that something that is a complex subject, frequented only by a minority, should play such a decisive role by which all are judged either favorably or unfavorably as @Arauna seems to point out.

And by the way what's wrong with the French brother Gerard Gertoux, is he not competent in chronology?

 

[Arauna]

 

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Also problematic is a simple fact that there is a missing 20 years found when one compares both periods of history.

Assyrian chronology was synchronized with Egyptian chronology and those 20 years are hard to find because of this. The father you go back in time -  the gap becomes more than 300 years.  To meticulously count and use Bible chronology here is better than any secular sources....the secular sources are not reliable.

 

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The pivotal date or anchor date is essential for any Chronology so we have wisely selected 539 BCE

This is the best SECULAR date to SYNCRONIZE with a Biblical date....and work your dates back from this point.....  And what is more this date is accepted by all biblical and secular scholars as accurate. Greek and Babylonian sources can be used to come to the same conclusion -  without a doubt. If you are a meticulous scholar you will choose the best date that can be corroborated from various sources and work back from there

2 hours ago, scholar JW said:

To address the concern to comprehend the whole sweep of God's administration of the world and the world's end

This is where the bigger picture (overall consistency of the promises of Jehovah) comes in - to understand the entire administration of Jehovah throughout the ages and how he has given timelines to prove periodically to those people which he is using at the time (for his purpose) that his "restoration project' for the earth is still on track and on time and moving ahead to its full completion.

This proves the accuracy of the entire bible and its "reality" so one knows this is the absolute truth - not just a blind faith - because the evidence is there that everything is happening on time in its outcome is reliable. It gives your faith vigor to know exactly where you are in time.

Prophesy a few hundred years ahead of time on many occasions carried the nation that Jehovah was using to go forward and wait for fulfilmment and "see the hand" of Jehovah! 

1 hour ago, Anna said:

How many friends that you know actually do this??

How many worldly people do this?  When people learn the truth from JWs they are impressed by the logic they have never seen before in the explanation of Jehovah's purpose and the many things they learn about the mortality of the soul, the last days and where we are in the time line - and it all fits into a logical picture.  This carries them for a long time and often is sufficient until death. No fault in that.....       To be a good debater is not important but to understand the truth and obey Jehovah.

No extra points to us older folks who start scratching under the surface.....  I just did this years ago because I had a need...... and the time line and the "overall" consistency of definite time points being met by Jehovah exactly as predicted (70 weeks prophecy - the world empires and 1914 ) also contributed to me seeing the entire Bible as the only "reality" there is.....  so I am glad I did the exercise.  I often use this when talking to atheists! ... to prove the bible is the only source of reality. I use it together with things happening on the ground.

I always ask:  why am I doing this?  or this other person doing this?  This is why I ask the questions here on this forum when I see scriptures being misapplied or so much credence given to secular material (that is not proven to be infallible) and this held up to discredit the dates given by the slave and therefore the entire "administration" of Jehovah throughout the ages being called into question.  

It indicates a lack of understanding of the overall bigger picture....  and it seems to be a process where people are bogged down in one small area of detail only to be failing to see the wonder and miracle of a larger overall "reality".     Failing to understand 1914 really water's the truth down somewhat and allows one to automatically reject many of the scriptures that are available to show where we are in the stream of time such the dream of Nebuchadnezzar relating to the gentile times.

Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.... the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak..... 

 

 

[Ann O'Maly]

16 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Interestingly, John Aquila Brown had first linked the words of our Master and Saviour in Luke 21;24 with the 'seven times' of Daniel ch.4.which is the basis of our doctrine today.

  I'm amazed (or am I? I shouldn't be really) that you still claim this, repeating the Proclaimers book's error. I've lost count how many times you've been corrected on this point over the past decade or so by several individuals. @JW Insider has just corrected you again! and yet you persist. 

I'll c&p a portion of my email to you from 2012:

Quote

Specifically, and as you surely already know, Brown understood the seven times of Dan. 4 as 2520 years running from 604 BC (Neb's 1st year) to 1917. In his chapter discussing it (in Vol. 1), he nowhere equated the seven times of Dan 4 with the Gentile times of Luke 21. However, he did equate Dan. 12:7's period of "a time, times and a half" or 1260 (lunar or 'Mohammedan') years with Luke 21's Gentile times (p. vii, xi, etc.). 

Readers can see for themselves: https://www.scribd.com/document/299825677/The-Even-Tide-by-John-Aquila-Brown-1823