607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported?

[Foreigner]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

VAT4956 illustrates exactly what direction one needs to go to get to exactly the 18th and to get to exactly to the 19th year. That's the thing about an astronomical diary that tells you what year aligns to Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. From there you know what direction you need to go to reach the 18th and 19th years or any other prior year in his reign. And it does this from the front side. It does this from the back side. And it does this from both sides.

The word salad is the only one aggressively being, served. Therefore, the *FALSE* premise becomes that VAT4956 covers 37 years of Nebuchadnezzar ‘s reign with NO MENTION of a catastrophic event being mentioned, that scripture describes. Therefore, as far as this tablet is concerned, Jerusalem was destroyed in 605BC, 3 years after King Jeroiakim, upset Nebuchadnezzar, and then after being upset, even more, he had God’s House Destroyed in 587BC.  If other tablets have those types of observations? Then what does that tell us about this record keeping tablet, that can be speculated in, both ways? This tablet doesn’t have the value that ex-witnesses (faders) wish it to have.

 

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

If you go back to the post you made here on Saturday, 12/23, the one with the Map of the Ancient Near East, you can see that you went from a mistaken or unproven premise and then said that this [false premise] was why VAT4956 tells us nothing about the 18-19 years, and that VAT4956 can only be used to show what his first (accession) year was. As you said

 

 

A conjecture is only relevant to those that oppose the WT chronology by misleading hypothesis.

I believe the rest of your post has become irrelevant, and contradictory. Perhaps you feel better debating someone else since your tone has become "ad hominem" as you indicated on the last page, and I have no need for it. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have pointed it out before that JWs  establishment of 537BCE is NOT based on the Babylonian chronicles but mostly on Persian sources.

Establishment of 537 BCE for what exactly? The 539 BCE year for the overthrow of Babylon by the Persians is established using Babylonian sources - the Babylonian chronicles, the Babylonian kings list, and the Babylonian astronomical tablets.

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Middle east chronology is synchronized with Egyptology dates - and Egyptology dates are out with 300 years - with less as we get to the Greek Ptolemaic kings. Recently watched an interesting lecture by David Rohl.... fascinating evidence that the exodus did take place ...... if one looks in the right period.

The exodus occurred many hundreds of years before our period under discussion so the alleged discrepancy is irrelevant. Egyptian chronology synchronizes with neo-Babylonian dates very well. Rohl does not have an issue with NB dates and agrees with its established timeline. I think this has been pointed out to you before.

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

But people on this forum keep on hashing up these Babylonian chronicles of very old king lists as though they were inspired by God! But these ex-witnesses  have an agenda.... this is why they keep rehashing these unreliable old Babylonian king lists.  While these lists are helpful they are not to be trusted as the only source of information. 

The primary Babylonian sources are contemporaneous with the events under discussion so have more evidential weight than histories written by other nations hundreds of years later. 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Some of the Babylonian chronicles were copies of copies and written 250 years after Cyrus died. 

This is a non-argument. The Bible manuscripts are copies written long after the events they describe. So?

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

The organization give several good reasons why they do not use the Babylonian chronicles.

The Insight book uses the Babylonian chronicles to verify Bible events all the time. The organization needs the Babylonian chronicles. I don't know why you imagine otherwise. 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

The death of Cyrus  is given in Olympiads as 62, year 2. (531/530 B.C.E)  Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 9 years which substantiates his year of conquest as 539 BCE. (handbook of biblical chronology by Jack Finegan 1964. ) The kings which come AFTER Cyrus are also dated by these same methods and therefore the persian dates of succession are much more reliable. 

Except that Watchtower takes issue with dates of Artaxerxes I's reign, but that's a whole 'nother topic. Cuneiform tablets give Cyrus a reign of 8 years [Correction: Arauna was right - it was 9 years - my faulty memory]. Both neo-Babylonian and Persian dates of succession are reliable.

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Astronomical calculations can also be misleading because the most reliable information is only a 'total' eclipse ... because many eclipses occur in a 50 year period and many are not  properly described - which can be misleading such as in the case with king Ahab.....  Please read this information in the insight as well.  

False. The most reliable information is NOT 'only a total eclipse.' Planetary and lunar configurations measured relative to fixed stars are reliable information also, and can be useful for dating purposes. Babylonians did properly describe some lunar eclipses so that they can be dated accurately, thereby helping to fix the NB timeline.

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

There are people here who think they are smarter than Jehovah's spirit and smarter than the available written information on the middle east and persian dynasties.  They keep bringing up the same old rehash of these Babylonian dates which I call the typical OCD of those who have lost Jehovah's spirit.

I see you've utilized @JW Insider's list of ad hominem's and lobbed one out.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

Therefore, the *FALSE* premise becomes that VAT4956 covers 37 years of Nebuchadnezzar ‘s reign with NO MENTION of a catastrophic event being mentioned, that scripture describes.

Even after all this time you still appear confused about what VAT4956 is. It's a diary of some astronomical events that were observed in YEAR 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. When scholars of all kinds check these events against the year in which they must have happened they see that the year these observations were made can only match 568. Even Furuli admits that most of the readings on the tablet can only match 568.

Any amateur can also look up in an astronomy program to see what year is matched by these observations.

Now if you had a diary that observed the positions of the moon and planets for your 37th year you would also be able to look up what calendar year this must have been by using an astronomy program. But let's say you also:

• got married in your 18th year and
• got divorced in your 28th year and
• your house burned down in your 30th year and
• your father got sick in your 35th year

According to you, these other events in your life evidently didn't happen because you didn't mention them in that diary you kept in your 37th year.

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

Therefore, as far as this tablet is concerned, Jerusalem was destroyed in 605BC, 3 years after King Jeroiakim, upset Nebuchadnezzar, and then after being upset, even more, he had God’s House Destroyed in 587BC.

You must be confused about this tablet. Almost as if you are conflating it with some portions of the Babylonian Chronicles. "As far as this tablet is concerned" Jerusalem might have never existed and Jehoiakim might have been the Pharaoh of Egypt. Neither are mentioned at all. We know nothing of Jerusalem or Jehoiakim from the diary. We only know that it provides evidence to know in what year Nebuchadnezzar must have reigned from his accession year and every year after that up to his 37th year.

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

If other tablets have those types of observations? Then what does that tell us about this record keeping tablet, that can be speculated in, both ways? This tablet doesn’t have the value that ex-witnesses (faders) wish it to have.

I wish you didn't use superfluous question marks, partial sentences as full sentences, and superfluous commas in exactly the same way that Allen Smith does. It makes your writing just as hard to understand as his. But I agree that this tablet doesn't have the value that people give it. Furuli, for example, seems to pretend that it is the most important document in the evidence that Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year was 587. He apparently thinks that if you can damage its reputation that this would change a thing with respect to the date of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year. Darren Thompson admits to thinking about it in the same way. Scholars know that VAT4956 adds to the overwhelming evidence for the Neo-Babylonian chronology, but that we can take it or leave it and we would still have the same overwhelming evidence for the same Neo-Babylonian chronology. As you say, it's not that important.

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

I believe the rest of your post has become irrelevant, and contradictory.

Of course you do. And if you can point out any evidence of your claim anywhere, I'm always happy to change my opinion in favor of better evidence.

[Foreigner]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Even after all this time you still appear confused about what VAT4956 is. It's a diary of some astronomical events that were observed in YEAR 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. When scholars of all kinds check these events against the year in which they must have happened they see that the year these observations were made can only match 568. Even Furuli admits that most of the readings on the tablet can only match 568.

No confusion. But it does appear we are looking at the same thing differently. While you disagree with my view, I will disagree with yours. fair enough?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I wish you didn't use superfluous question marks, partial sentences as full sentences, and superfluous commas in exactly the same way that Allen Smith does.

We all wish for many things. I wish I wasn't compared to a person I don't know. That in itself is the embodiment of superfluous. I also wish other peoples opinions weren't "forced" upon me, as this has become at least, 4 times.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Of course you do. And if you can point out any evidence of your claim anywhere, I'm always happy to change my opinion in favor of better evidence.

I wish my above statement wasn't true, but here we have evidence of number 5.

I will extend the same courtesy when better evidence is presented without a misappropriation of historical facts and scripture by personal opinions. Once again, thank you.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

No confusion. But it does appear we are looking at the same thing differently. While you disagree with my view, I will disagree with yours. fair enough?

I never claim that anything I say is more than an opinion even if it comes across that way when presentation of strong evidence is assumed to be a statement that the opinion must be correct. One person's point of view can literally have a thousand times more evidence behind it than another's, but it doesn't absolutely mean that the person with better or more evidence is always right. We should all be willing to learn new things all the time, and I am always on the lookout to be able to find new and interesting evidence that can change my perspective. Jehovah doesn't change, but my personal views and opinions are always subject to correction. As I've said before, it's one of the primary reasons I like to share on the forum. It's an opportunity to accept correction and discover new and better evidence. It becomes another way to "make sure of all things" and to "hold fast to what is fine." So, of course it's fair enough that we both have a right to our opinions and both have a right to agree with or disagree with views expressed.

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

We all wish for many things. I wish I wasn't compared to a person I don't know. That in itself is the embodiment of superfluous. I also wish other peoples opinions weren't "forced" upon me, as this has become at least, 4 times.

What's "this" that has been "forced" upon you. Again, opinions aren't forced upon anyone. Opinions remain opinions. Only when we feel that the weight of evidence changes against our current view, would we in any way feel "forced" to change an opinion. But the statement of an opinion forces nothing. Even a preponderance of evidence forces nothing. If we feel "forced" it says more about our response to evidence; it says something good about own proper thinking abilities.

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Of course you do. And if you can point out any evidence of your claim anywhere, I'm always happy to change my opinion in favor of better evidence.

I wish my above statement wasn't true, but here we have evidence of number 5.

I get it. You are saying that my opinion is being "forced" on you for a fifth time now, because when you called my post irrelevant and contradictory above without even trying to show any evidence of that claim, I responded that I would happily change my opinion if you actually presented evidence that was better. Just so you know it's a true and honest offer. As you might have already seen, I have changed my opinion on several topics in just the last couple years since I began posting. It's one of the reasons I enjoy the forum.

Also, I can still enjoy learning about your personal opinions even if I don't hear evidence in favor of your opinion.

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

scribal error

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

never claim that anything I say is more than an opinio

I am not going to count all the red  'scribal errors' in the above presentation because these are all flimsy reasonings - and what is more - you know it.

As I said above -  it is a rehash of old rehashes - which frankly - are myopic because they do not take the OVERALL timeline into account.  I recall that we discussed this before, how 1914 came AFTER  the INDUSTRIAL revolution and how this was the first WORLD war - not only in its size but also in its scope of modern weaponry and use of chemicals weapons etc - which happened to begin a more and more sophisticated arms race which is now becoming something like star wars if you read what Russia is doing at present. 

Since 1914 the 'signs ' have been undeniable and your  reasonings have been unscholarly (like a pining old maid longing for the days that were when she had her glory - now gone.) Wake up and look around you at the world we are living in!  The proof for 1914 is here in real life AND BECOMING INCREASINGLY serious!  

Luck?  I would not say so - Jehovah's spiritual guidance.  The 70 week prophesy regarding Jesus' coming and all the other prophecies gives a timeline for Jehovah's overall plan which I call the "restoration project" under his Kingdom - which is the main theme running throughout the bible. Do you really think Jehovah will let the nation he is using, who have to preach about the Kingdom in the last days - misunderstand the main theme and its unseen arrival - the kingdom? We are the only ones who understand about the future government - the 144000..... Ah yes - but I recall you do not believe we need "signs" because you think Jesus is going to come back in the flesh?

Wake up!  We ARE an imperfect NATION who is living in reasonable harmony and peace in a increasingly irrational world where everything is more and more violent and chaotic!  Jehovah's nation is the only nation on earth today that is NEUTRAL to politics - which fits in with Revelation 17 & 18 - to get out of her. Their neutrality is a sign that they are the people of God because Satan's propaganda is going out into the world gearing everyone up to some form of hate and violence due to perceived injustices.  Brother will kill brother during Armageddon - for sure because everyone is becoming more and more divided with perceived injustice! 

The western world is facing demise - not only by the Islamic threat to use violence to take over the world (apart from a few other powerful people with money who have the same objective - to come out tops and have influence over peoples and nations)...... but also the progressive modernist philosophies which have infiltrated the entire West and all its highest institutions of learning - the universities.  Have you been watching what is going on or are you living in lala-land? The top philosophers of the world are now lamenting the condition of humans on earth and fear for the loss of Western civilization as we know it in the next few years.  

The environmental threats to the 'existence' on earth of humans in future are accelerating at an alarming rate while most governments do not care that we are facing EXTINCTION of the food chains in te sea and land. Climate change, garbage buildup, the poisoned water resources, deforestation, poisoned agricultural land etc. is progressing faster than expected.  Soon - ALL these combined threats will come to a head and cause major problems even in developed countries........ the writing is on the wall!!!

Jehovah is truly allowing for time since 1914 to prove that technological (advanced/developed) mankind cannot rule the world successfully..... the proof is here.  So stop shouting - the end should be here.  Jesus said this would happen.  Show patience - all the signs are here and the end is close.  Even if I die today - I have seen and read enough to know the proof is here on the ground! and in the news!

Most religions that were known for complacency are now becoming militant - Buddists are killing. Hindus as killing Muslims (and Christians) because they eat beef etc etc.  There is only one NATION that is totally committed to non-violence because they have been gently forged and educated to become ONE non-violent nation.  There are individuals who may not withstand the test but as a NATION we will survive.  How do you explain these teachings of non-violence in a world which is getting more violent?  It is the sign of Jehovah - the love that will be in his nation..... if you cannot see this you are more rebellious than I thought.  Your scholarliness has made you blind to everything else around you - like being locked up in a room for 50 years and the key thrown away..... living in the days of old...look forward.

Not only is Jehovah a time-keeper but he is pure logic.  If you look at the Bible itself it gives us a reason to know that the 8th king (in the timeline) as mentioned in revelation is already present and being ridden by false religion........ soon they will have to turn against religion to maintain peace and security - security is becoming a rare commodity as time is panting to its end (almost in slow motion like a movie one is watching over and over with the violence and bombs etc).

Jesus said: if your eye makes you stumble - take it out.  You have a pet OCD that you need to get out of your life  because it is making you stumble.... and weakening those who listen to you..... Jehovah loves you but what you are doing is misleading others when all the PRESENT signs are already here.

In 3 years, ISIS created such havoc in the middle east.  Now they are amongst us...... what do you think is waiting for the world?  America has its racial and, drug and divided political  issues...... and what is more - people are developing violent attitudes.... stability and TRUTH /ethics is GONE - FINITO - never to return!  No-one can fix what is happening now.... It is staring us in the face and some are too busy with their own agendas to notice!

 

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

I am not going to count all the red  'scribal errors' in the above presentation because these are all flimsy reasonings - and what is more - you know it.

Every one of those exact quotes were copied from our own Insight book to show that we appreciate the work of scholars, even those who deal with potential errors. It could easily have gone on to twice that length from the Insight book alone, or 100 times that length if we were to look at all the corrections to the Bible text that the NWT accepts from textual critics and scholars. I was addressing a false prejudice that we should dismiss the work of all scholars who have pointed out potential errors in the text.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I said above -  it is a rehash of old rehashes - which frankly - are myopic because they do not take the OVERALL timeline into account.

We can look at the evidence and call it a "rehash of old rehashes" or we can look at the flimsy lack of evidence in our repeated attempts to dismiss the evidence and see that as a "rehash of old rehashes." But it's pretty clear to me that we have barely even scratched the surface of the evidence against the Scripturalness of the 1914 theory, and yet it's always the same old flimsy ideas that get put forward as a defense, as if Ptolemy's Canon, VAT4956 were all-important, and as if Neo-Babylonian evidence is always tainted and untrustworthy -- except when we need it to cherry-pick data for a theory.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Since 1914 the 'signs ' have been undeniable and your  reasonings have been unscholarly (like a pining old maid longing for the days that were when she had her glory - now gone.)

Yes. It always comes back to whether we can claim we were right about 1914, and how, decades in advance, we predicted this particular change of an epoch, and that this is proof that Jehovah's spirit must have been backing this particular theory of Bible chronology. And this idea about our own history, untrue as it is, keeps getting repeated as if repetition is going to make it true.

I'm as convinced as you are that 1914 was an important historical date. And I'm also convinced that it is both dishonest and unscriptural to pretend that we were able to delve into Jehovah's jurisdiction over the times and seasons and predict this era decades in advance. It's true that I hope that our honesty will tear down these pretensions of secular scholarship that supposedly underpin the false doctrine. But I make no claims of being a scholar. My point is about honesty and the cleanliness of the congregation. If we see someone taking a false step, we should speak up to that person, and if they don't listen, we should take it to the congregation.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do you really think Jehovah will let the nation he is using, who have to preach about the Kingdom in the last days - misunderstand the main theme and its unseen arrival - the kingdom?

We have a wonderful and powerful Bible message that has an appeal based on common sense and a desire for truth. We don't participate in divisive politics and murderous wars. We worship a God that is knowable, and we don't turn him into a mysterious multi-personalitied entity. We don't teach that he literally punishes with torture, and we can therefore properly focus on his justice, mercy, patience and love. We use the Bible's principles, examples and motivations as the highest moral guide.

And, of course, there is much more that is wonderful and appealing and valuable about our doctrines and practices. But this doesn't mean that we have ever been right about chronology, just as we were never right about the hundreds of doctrines based on turning any and all Bible narratives and Bible parables into prophecies that were (more often than not) supposedly predicting events around 1918 and 1919, and adjusted as needed to refer to events in 1922, 1931, 1935, even as late as 1942.

It's human nature to want to get accolades, be presumptuous, be prideful, and want to bask in our own egos. It's also human nature to want to enhance our resume especially if we think it will make more people follow our lead. There is evidence that this is what we have been doing with chronology since the very first Watch Tower publications, and we could become complicit in the dishonesty if we find ourselves trying to ignore it at all costs.

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ah yes - but I recall you do not believe we need "signs" because you think Jesus is going to come back in the flesh?

You don't actually recall that from me. You did claim that this is what I thought on a couple of occasions, but I always corrected you. No I don't think that Jesus is going to come back in the flesh. I believe he returns as a powerful spirit creature and the entire world will get a glimpse of the glory of unapproachable light, during the revelation of his glory, the manifestation of his parousia.

• (1 Timothy 6:14-16) . . . until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. . . .
• (1 Peter 3:18-4:13) . . .He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. . . .  through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him. . . .   But the end of all things has drawn close. Therefore, be sound in mind, and be vigilant with a view to prayers.  Above all things, have intense love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. . . .  On the contrary, go on rejoicing over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.

The Bible does speak of an invisible presence, wherever two or three are gathered in his name, and that this situation would last until the "synteleia." (Matthew 28:20) But the Bible never speaks of an invisible "parousia." In fact the Bible says that the "parousia" is like lightning that shines brightly from one end of the horizon all the way to the other. That is hardly an illustration meant to convey invisibility. I don't doubt that we are seeing signs that indicate we are in the last days, and just as Timothy and Peter say, as quoted above, that Jesus has been in kingly power since his resurrection, so we know he rules as king and will continue to rule as king of his kingdom until the last enemy death is brought to nothing.

• (1 Corinthians 15:25, 26) 25 For he must rule as king [sit at God's right hand] until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

Our basic message that we preach is still therefore intact. I am only hoping that we no longer mix the message with murky secular chronology that associates Christ's return in Kingdom power with a generation of increased wickedness and bloodshed. I am hoping that we no longer mix the message with a murky secular chronology that makes a wicked violent idol-worshiping Gentile king represent the glorious Messianic Kingdom of Christ.

• (2 Corinthians 6:14-16) . . .For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?. . .

 

[Evacuated]

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"unity" in the cause of "truth" or of mere conformity to a false teaching?

If the suggestion here is that the unity experienced by Jehovah's Witnesses today is based on conformity to a "false teaching", then any of Jehovah's Witnesses who support such a view are standing on a very thin ice veneer over an abyss of apostasy.

So my last exasperated appeal on this much berated subject:

The year 607BCE is seen by Jehovah's Witnesses as the coincidence of 2 events: 

1. The desolation of the city of Jerusalem and the land of Judah.
2. The deposition of a king ruling as a representative of the family line of David, actually sitting on Jehovah's throne.

It is also seen as the starting point of 2 prophetic periods:

1. A period of desolation of the city of Jerusalem and it's environs (Judah)
2. A period of absence from the earthly scene of a King ruling on Jehovah's throne

The first period, is reckoned to span a 70 year period, terminating in the year 537 BCE with the implementing of a Persian decree allowing for the release of Jewish exiles and restoration of the literal City of Jerusalem as a center of worship.

The second period, otherwise known as the "Gentile Times", is reckoned to span a 2520 year period, terminating in the year 1914CE with Jehovah's decree placing rulership of the earth into the hands of Jesus Christ.

This simple construct has had much Scriptural and secular argumentation brought forth to support both it and many subordinate dependencies of understanding. These, to borrow a phrase, have been considerably "rehashed" elsewhere, as have opposing or alternative views. In fact, despite the ridiculing, battering, dissecting, and all but obliterating of what is commonly held by Jehovah's Witnesses on this matter, no one has yet come up with a simple alternative statement of belief that makes any real sense. Is this too much to ask??? (And no prizes to anyone just repeating the statements in a negative form!!)

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I am hoping that we no longer mix the message with a murky secular chronology that makes a wicked violent idol-worshiping Gentile king represent the glorious Messianic Kingdom of Christ.

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

He wasn't a gentile?

Nebuchadnezzar was a Gentile (as was Cyrus). Both were used to mete out a measure of Jehovah's punishment, from the beginning of the greatest punishment they had seen up until that time (Neb) and the means to an end of that punishment by freeing them from exile in Babylon (Cyrus).

The problem is the loose manner in which the prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar is treated. When haughty Nebuchadnezzar has been taught a lesson and recognizes his guilt, only then is he returned to his throne. Wicked Nebuchadnezzar's return to the throne represents the fact that the most righteous person ever, Jesus, can now sit on the throne of God's Messianic Kingdom in 1914. Did Jesus learn a lesson about haughtiness? Did he recognize his guilt so as to be placed on the throne? And how is it that we say that the times of Gentile kings ENDED in 1914, when it was represented by a CONTINUATION of Nebuchadnezzar's Gentile kingdom. For decades prior to 1914 (and another decade beyond 1914) we said that the Jewish nation in Palestine would be the only remaining kingdom on earth after 1914. Did God's Kingdom really crush and put an end to all the Gentile kingdoms in 1914. Is this what we want people to believe is meant by Jesus taking his great power and ruling as king?

When Greece (Antiochus Epiphanes) and Rome (under Titus/Vespasian) stood against Jehovah's center of worship in Jerusalem they were referred to as "the disgusting thing." Nebuchadnezzar starves and kills thousands of Jehovah's people, executes officials, burns Jehovah's temple to the ground and yet, somehow, this Gentile represents the non-Gentile Messianic Kingdom.

[Arauna]

Thanks Nana - I reread both articles -  Cyrus is known as the first person to show 'human rights' because he tolerated all other religions..... and participated in their rituals (just like Alexander the Great later did). He was anointed for the job (to send israel back to their land) by Jehovah and it is amazing how he came from a very small insignificant kingdom to become such a powerful ruler almost overnight. Jehovah overshadowed him because he was a brilliant diplomat - winning over many of the smaller persian tribes to unite.  By talking to all the troops (when his Median grandfather came up against him in war) he managed to unite them as well.  After he did the job for Jehovah (Babylon fell) he became power hungry and made war father to the North.

The date of Cyrus' death is confirmed.... so from there it is easy to count back....

To add to the information above -  I read a book about the last war Cyrus participated in (quite a few years ago) -  He died at the hands of a woman soldier (who came from the Amazonian tribes to the north).  One ghastly thing I remember was reading about these tribes and their customs.  When a person felt old and wanted to die - the person would let themselves be killed and the rest of the tribe would eat the person at a party.  This was the kind of people who became the nemeses of Cyrus.

I love to read how the spirit of Jehovah was active in all these instances and made things happen overnight..... So I trust Jehovah to lead his people in our time as well.  Collectively - Jehovah's spirit is working on all the humble ones.  Not the smart and the intelligent - but the humble ones.  Moses must have been well educated but after working with sheep for 40 years he felt himself too incompetent to speak to the Pharaoh. These are the kind of people Jehovah uses.  It boggles the mind. If an elder does not push his own individuality- it gives the Holy Spirit a better chance to work in the group.  I know that all have not yet leant this but I have seen how elders accomplish much more by true humility.

This is also true of the date 1914.  It was not mere luck - it was Jehovah's spirit. Something our skeptics do not understand. All the signs are here of the severe distress that is coming over the earth like a fog and it will settle like gloom when human organizations are no longer capable to provide any comfort or protection.

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

If the suggestion here is that the unity experienced by Jehovah's Witnesses today is based on conformity to a "false teaching", then any of Jehovah's Witnesses who support such a view are standing on a very thin ice veneer over an abyss of apostasy.

Let's not take this too far out of context. The suggestion was not generally about "the unity experienced by Jehovah's Witnesses today" but about historical value of the unity of belief we have held with respect to chronology. What I actually said was:

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I understand that it makes for better "unity" if we all just go along and gullibly agree with all things, but was it really better for all of us that we kept 1874 as a Biblical teaching up until 1943 and even kept 1878 as part of a Biblical teaching up until the 1960's? The problems that such chronological teachings caused in 1918, 1919, 1925, and 1975 were caused primarily through "unity" but was this really "unity" in the cause of "truth" or of mere conformity to a false teaching?

From the very start --from the first few issues of the Watchtower in 1879-- the idea has been that true Christians fell into two camps:

• "Wise virgins" who understood that a "Midnight Cry!" had gone out somewhere around 1859 (halfway between 1844 and 1874). 
• "Foolish virgins" who do not prepare based on the content of the call that began going out before 1874, and who therefore do not understand that the door to the marriage feast is closing, and the need to believe in this chronology as it is the specific thing that separates the wise from the foolish virgins. They need to believe in the chronology to get their lamps in order by 1878  . . . then by 1881.

The person responsible for bringing the news of this "midnight cry" "herald of the morning" or "herald of Christ's presence in 1874" would be the individual identified as the "faithful and wise servant." This belief that Jesus' presence had begun in 1874 was the basis for the name "Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence" since 1874. The belief that his presence had begun in 1874 remained with us until 1943/1944. 70 years of a false teaching. In those 70 years, how many spoke up against this false teaching? 

Due to the significance given to the year 1874 and a 40 year harvest timed from 1878 to 1918, the 1878 date remained with us from about 1922 until about 1961 as the beginning of the "Elijah" work, after which they were finally considered "false" doctrines. Although tying Russell to Elijah is evidently making a comeback.

*** w13 7/15 p. 11 par. 6 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***

• 6 What is the larger fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecy? During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer.

• *** kr chap. 2 p. 14 par. 6 The Kingdom Is Born in Heaven ***
  Those taking the lead among them—Charles T. Russell and his close associates—did, indeed, act as the foretold “messenger,”

But, still, the emphasis on dates was admitted to be the reason for the predictions that did not come true for 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925 the 1970's and then for the remainder of the twentieth century. All the predictions from the 1950's through the 1990's about how the generation that was old enough to witness and understand the sign in 1914 would not die out before Armageddon also turned out to be false predictions. The prediction that young persons ready to graduate high school in the late 1960's would never grow old in this system turned out to be false. The predictions from 1919 through 1925 that "millions now living will never die" turned out to be a false prediction.

Wisdom is proved righteous by its works. So I was talking about the practical aspect of our preaching work. Some of it has been tainted with the attraction of false predictions. The distraction of dates. The fact that Jesus said not to go after those who declare that they know the time is at hand. And we know that making false predictions in the name of Jehovah is a form of uncleanness. If we are truly concerned with keeping the congregation clean we should all do our part to help root out all forms of uncleanness.

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

no one has yet come up with a simple alternative statement of belief that makes any real sense. Is this too much to ask?

Jesus did; Peter did; Paul did. But it's no wonder so many missed it, with all this emphasis on dates.

[Evacuated]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus did; Peter did; Paul did. But it's no wonder so many missed it, with all this emphasis on dates.

Please!. We all know what Jesus Peter and Paul said.

And as for this continual regurgitating of old spiritual food, isn't a bit like trying to eat yesterday's manna? It was good at the time, and certainly did what Jehovah wanted it to do...then. But today? Don't we find it's just like the manna of old which , when saved beyond it's current need,  just "bred worms and stank"?