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Jack Ryan

1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses

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9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

One work in progress at that time was Herbert W Armstrong. One of his works from 1956 accumulated to his booklet of 1975 prophecy. His magazine, “good news” spoke about Armageddon in our lifetime. That magazine was published in July 1975.

So, this idea that 1975 only came from the Watchtower, lacks facts and vision….

[I'm repeating here a post which is a response I just made to this claim about Armstrong, as it was moved to a new topic:]

And, don't forget that, in 1956, Herbert W Armstrong supposedly stole the idea from the February 1, 1955 Watchtower, which put the end of 6,000 years within one year of 1976:

*** w55 2/1 p. 95 Questions From Readers ***

  • In 1953 in preparing the chart that appears in the book “New Heavens and a New Earth” a one-year error was brought to light. By the aid of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the difference between the two numbers appearing at Genesis 7:6 and Genesis 7:11 became apparent, especially since there are two different Hebrew words here maintaining a distinct difference. At Genesis 7:6 the number 600 referring to Noah’s age means 600 full years, being what is generally termed a cardinal number. Whereas at Genesis 7:11 the number “600th,” an ordinal number, means 599 full years plus a portion of another year. . . .  Inasmuch as previously our chronology considered Noah as 600 full years old when he entered the ark, instead of the actual 599 years and some months, as we now see, this has meant that the preflood dates must be shrunk by one year, this bringing Adam’s creation for the fall of 4025 B.C. Incidentally, Jesus, who became the second or “last Adam,” was born in the fall of the year around the first of October.—1 Cor. 15:45, NW.
  • It is well to understand that all Bible chronology dates for events prior to 539 B.C. must be figured backward from the Absolute date of 539 B.C. In the sure date of 607 B.C. for the fall of Jerusalem we have an anchor for the chronology establishment of the important year of 1914. By an overwhelming number of physical facts occurring since 1914, this great turning-point year in man’s history, 1914, has been abundantly confirmed.
  • According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years. Almost all independent chronologists assume incorrectly that, as soon as Adam was created, then began Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period of the creative week. Such then figure that from Adam’s creation, now thought to be the fall of 4025 B.C., why, six thousand years of God’s rest day would be ending in the fall of 1976. However, from our present chronology (which is admitted imperfect) at best the fall of the year 1976 would be the end of 6,000 years of human history for mankind, 6,000 years of man’s existence on the earth, not 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh seven-thousand-year period. Why not? Because Adam lived some time after his creation in the latter part of Jehovah’s sixth creative period, before the seventh period, Jehovah’s sabbath, began. . . .
  • The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.

Of course, just a decade or so later, the Watchtower began minimizing the amount of time it would have taken for a perfect man to name all the animals if Jehovah brought them to him in a steady stream. The flaw in this reasoning was that angels would surely know that amount of time that Jehovah had kept a secret, so they would be aware of the day and the hour "when 6,000 years of Jehovah's present rest day come to an end."

There is also evidence that Fred W. Franz, who wrote the article above, in 1955, began recalculating in the early 1970's and wanted to begin publishing October 1974 as the date for the end of the 6,000 years of human history. F.W.Franz, I am told, thought this would have strengthened the 1975 argument. But this was supposedly one of the few times when N.Knorr put his foot down and told him he had caused enough trouble with 1975, and that Knorr thought that this vacillation would actually weaken the faith that people put in the Watchtower.

You probably already know this, but to your point, many Witnesses had to be counseled not to listen to Armstrong's radio program, especially in the late 1960's and early 1970's when many Witnesses claimed that he sounded exactly like the Watchtower.

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@DefenderOTT

I know that you have already said (elsewhere) that you were not the originator of much of the post you offered above. Just to help clarify what you are saying, I noticed that the first four paragraphs are exactly what can be seen from a person who wrote this on YAHOO ANSWERS about 6 years ago. https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111008133433AA7SDXA Those are the 4 paragraphs that start and then end as follows:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975.

. . . . They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

Then you apparently added your own words in the fifth paragraph above:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?

Then it appears that you went back to quoting YAHOO ANSWERS, quoting the next three paragraphs, which started and ended, thus:

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. . . . .  Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!

Then apparently you added your own words again to finish up the discussion.

15 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world....

I only went to the trouble of mentioning all this because I would like to respond at some point to those claims from YAHOO ANSWERS.

For reference, here is the remaining part of the quote that was found on YAHOO ANSWERS. Although it's mostly wrong, it's also partly correct, and it's well written, and I expect that the points will come up from time to time:

Quote

Those who question this fact are like a woman in her ninth month questioning whether she is pregnant!!

True Christians continue to “put spiritual things first” and place material things as less important. And when Christians make a decision to give up some material things they don’t later complain and blame others because they may not have some benefits that others have.

The accusation that Jehovah's Witnesses have claimed to be inspired prophets or have tried to foretell the future is absolutely false and a misrepresentation.

The flat-out truth is that the Watchtower Society has NEVER claimed to give prophesies, to be inspired or to be infallible. These accusations are deceptive because they blatantly rip the Watchtower's words out of context.

Notice this sentence in the "Purpose" statement that appeared in EVERY issue of the Watchtower up to the mid- 70's: ***"No, The Watchtower is no inspired prophet, but it follows and explains a Book of prophecy..."***

"Since today we have the complete inspired Scriptures, God is not giving any more inspired visions or dreams. However, Jehovah's people today are seeing the fulfillment of many of the inspired visions and dreams that God's servants had in ancient times...Not that these prophesy in the sense of foretelling events under inspiration, but rather in that they are making public proclamation of the inspired dreams and visions long ago recorded."--Watchtower, 1 January 1971,

There are scores of similar Watchtower quotes that go back to the 1800's.

Neither Russell, the Watchtower nor any JW's has EVER claimed to give prophecies nor to be inspired. They never claimed infallibility in their teachings.

The early Witnesses did not "predict" anything, they simply delved into the Bible trying to see how prophecies already recorded in the Bible were going to be fulfilled. Sometimes their understandings were a little off and they willingly corrected them.

Sincerely,

BAR-ANERGES

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know that you have already said (elsewhere) that you were not the originator of much of the post you offered above. Just to help clarify what you are saying, I noticed that the first four paragraphs are exactly what can be seen from a person who wrote this on YAHOO ANSWERS about 6 years ago. https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111008133433AA7SDXA Those are the 4 paragraphs that start and then end as follows:

Sorry Mate!

Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

1975 article.jpg

1975 article2.jpg

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3 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

LOL! Thanks for the information. Google returned this same general content that you posted in about 11 places, but after checking several of them, the ones I checked were missing the fifth paragraph and the last paragraph found on your post, which is why I assumed that you might have added both these paragraphs yourself. My apologies for the assumption that you had provided both of the extra paragraphs as your own comment. It looks to me now as if you only added the final sentence/paragraph: "There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world.... " The versions I found on YAHOO ANSWERS didn't have the missing paragraphs, but some had versions of the 10 extra paragraphs that I quoted from the longer version in the last post. These versions are each a bit different, but repeat many of the key paragraphs. Examples:

My goal was to make sure that if I responded, I was going to be able to separate the part you wrote from the part you quoted. So thanks for helping me out on that point. Apparently, as you have now pointed out, you got your version from a place that perfectly matches http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/09/did-jehovahs-witnesses-organization.html

I had already glanced at that sight, but didn't inspect it because it was so quickly obvious that it was about 10 paragraphs too short to be the original answer. Anyway, the "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" blog also agrees that it came originally from YAHOO ANSWERS and from BAR-ANERGES.

Not that these differences mattered much to the point being discussed, but I thought the author (BAR-ANERGES) wrote a very good thesis to discuss under this topic, because it is a fairly complete general answer that matches much of what I myself have said to people, in defense of 1975, and what my parents and many others typically say. So I thought it would be good to address all of it. (Along with anything you might have said in defense of it.)

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I have not made it a secret that I think we are currently hurtling toward the same problem we created for ourselves in the 1970's. Therefore, I think it's very important that we don't forget this part of our history, as we can learn from it. I think we learn just as much from the defensive attempts, like the one on "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" linked above. In fact, I think the mistakes made back in the 1960's and early 1970's with respect to 1975 were very trivial compared to the lessons we can learn about our own egos, our pride and our honesty. Honesty is a form of faithfulness, and that's the only reason that this discussion might still be important to some of us today.

Are you in anyway suggesting that BAR-ANERGES was not telling the truth? if so, were you there, I was, and I agree with his conclusion.

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