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Brother Rando

The trinity and it’s false theology.

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You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?

Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)

According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 

If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?

Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)

Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 

    Hello guest!
   A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  

    Hello guest!
, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read 
    Hello guest!
)

Those who deny 

    Hello guest!
and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26)

Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.

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5 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?

Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)

According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 

If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?

Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)

Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 

    Hello guest!
   A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  

    Hello guest!
, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read 
    Hello guest!
)

Those who deny 

    Hello guest!
and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26)

Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.

I had to speak with a Trinity believer the other day and the conservation goes as followed:

Who is God?

Jesus.

Ok so who is the mediator?

Jesus

Who raised the Christ from the Dead?

God.

But you just said Jesus is the medator and that Jesus is God? If Jesus is God who did he raise from the dead and who is his mediator.

in a high tone of voice: JESUS IS GOD AND HE RAISED HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD

But the bible says God raised Jesus from the dead, making him Lord and whatnot.

Who is the one who died?

Jesus

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Jesus

>_< Jesus is the Son

Is Apostle Paul and John lairs?

No.

Then why do you not believe God raised Jesus from the dead and that Paul addresses Jesus as a mediator to men to mankind?

No answer. begins to insult me for speaking bible truth.

(it leads to nonsense and some power ranger-sque evading tactics to not answer the question)

And then he goes on to Christian/Religious Infighting

You deny Jesus and all that jazz, yet he cannot answer questions that derive from the bible itself.

 

Trinitarians are like circus clowns, they do one thing, the next second, they do something else, in a sense, they do the same with the bible, adding things in there and twisting what the scriptures even means, leads to utter nonsense.

It comes to a point that even Muslims have to teach and refute Trinity believers on their own bible.

 

 

Other than that, good post, you do justice to those who are fed up with the Trinity, the very confusing doctrine that is part of the Christian decline problem.

 

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When sharing a teaching from Christ, trinitarians tend to reject the Words of Christ, and then substitute foreign teaching contrary to what Jesus Christ said.  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."(Mark 10:18)

Trinitarians hate this scripture because Jesus Christ said it.  They claim he was wrong and that HE is God alone.

Pay attention to the beginning   "Why do you call ME good?"  Then they say you are saying Jesus is bad!!  I'm simply showing what Jesus did say.  Please stop putting words in Jesus mouth and claim I'm the one saying it.  IT's DISHONEST.

If Jesus is God alone, then what happened to 'the three separate persons"? Then getting louder they start to scream INSULTS.

If jesus is God, then why does Jesus state  "No one is good--except God alone."

 

If Jesus was God then, wouldn't Jesus have said "thank You"????  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."(Mark 10:18) is a scripture that trinitarians forgot to delete from the Bible. :P

 

 

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Of course not.

 

CHRISTIANS will be saved.

 

JW's DENY Jesus, DENY the Holy Spirit, DENY hell and DENY the cross.


Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Gal. 2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus" 

Acts 4:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

 

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
 

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27 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

JW's DENY Jesus, DENY the Holy Spirit, DENY hell and DENY the cross.

JWs adhere to the teachings of Jesus, they do not believe Jesus is God for there is a clear distinction between God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) and Jesus, who is the Son of God. Is it hypocrisy if one, such as yourself, speak ill of another man who does the work of spreading the good news gospel, yet you do not adhere to command and commission? The answer is clear.

Clearly you do not have the Holy Spirit because of what you just posted breaks a very clear quality of what a Christian must profess, but you read the bible don't you? This should be very evident to you and we know what Jesus says about those who do not adhere to the law (Matthew 7:23), especially to someone such a s yourself who have no idea of what the Law of which every True Christians is bounded to.

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Gal. 2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus" 

Acts 4:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Quote yet no explanation. A dog who barks but does not bite, is no dog at all. You also make a small misstep on your part here.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

  • Mormons do not preach the good news gospel, they believe they can be equal to God, they also believe God himself actually had intercourse with virgin Mary, they also only adhere to the book of Mormon and hold a strong view in polygamy and child marriage.
  • JWs, are Restorationist, nuff said. Hardcore Bible pressed also, meaning stick to what the bible says, always.
  • SDA believe in the Trinity, so technically, they are JWs who accept the Trinity. They also believe being part of the nation to fight for a cause.

Clearly you do not read the bible very much, unless you are here to troll, it can easily be seen.

Your picture show holds no foundation also. therefore, your spirit has been tested, 1 John 4:1.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

JWs adhere to the teachings of Jesus, they do not believe Jesus is God for there is a clear distinction between God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) and Jesus, who is the Son of God. Is it hypocrisy if one, such as yourself, speak ill of another man who does the work of spreading the good news gospel, yet you do not adhere to command and commission? The answer is clear.

Clearly you do not have the Holy Spirit because of what you just posted breaks a very clear quality of what a Christian must profess, but you read the bible don't you? This should be very evident to you and we know what Jesus says about those who do not adhere to the law (Matthew 7:23), especially to someone such a s yourself who have no idea of what the Law of which every True Christians is bounded to.

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

Quote yet no explanation. A dog who barks but does not bite, is no dog at all. You also make a small misstep on your part here.

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

  • Mormons do not preach the good news gospel, they believe they can be equal to God, they also believe God himself actually had intercourse with virgin Mary, they also only adhere to the book of Mormon and hold a strong view in polygamy and child marriage.
  • JWs, are Restorationist, nuff said. Hardcore Bible pressed also, meaning stick to what the bible says, always.
  • SDA believe in the Trinity, so technically, they are JWs who accept the Trinity. They also believe being part of the nation to fight for a cause.

Clearly you do not read the bible very much, unless you are here to troll, it can easily be seen.

Your picture show holds no foundation also. therefore, your spirit has been tested, 1 John 4:1.

You bring up a lot of ignorant statements trying to excuse your(?) religion.

 

Study the history of the watchtower. They have NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.

 

I prefer to address one topic per comment, so will address the Biblical Jesus topic here.

 

Please address one at a time for any further comments, please.

 

JW's DENY the Jesus of the Bible.

 

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.
The Bible says that God the father is God.
The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 


John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

 

   HELL

In the New Testament, 162 passages speak about unrepentant people going to hell, and 70 of these were described by Jesus, as he warned people to avoid it.

When the unsaved die, they go immediately to hell. Later, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth, the unsaved will leave hell, receive their resurrected bodies, go to the Great White Throne Judgment and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they remain forever (Revelation 20:11-15).

I. FOUR BIBLE WORDS THAT DESCRIBE HELL:

1. GEHENNA1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15).

Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire).

Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (gehenna).

Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into
 
        hell fire” (gehenna).       
Matthew 23:15    “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna)       
        than yourselves.”       
Matthew 23:33    “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna).       
Mark 9:43    “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the       
        fire that never shall be quenched.”       
Mark 9:45    “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the       
        fire that never shall be quenched.”       
Mark 9:47    “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of       
        fire).       
Luke 12:5    “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna).       
James 3:6        “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna).     

2. HADES86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times. Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead.

Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades).

Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.
Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments931 (punishment)”

v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different.
Acts 2:27    “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).”
Acts 2:31    “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).”

Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven. Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment.

Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved.

Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.”

Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment
 
of unbelievers and of demons.           
2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire    taking vengeance on them that know not God, and       
    obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”       
Matthew 13:42, 50    “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.”       
Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47    “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.”       
Isaiah 66:24    “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against       
    me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”       
    Mark9:44,46,48.           
Isaiah 33:14    “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?       
    Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?”       
Matthew 18:8    “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.”       
Matthew 25:41    “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil       
    and his angels.”           
Jude 7    “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of       
    eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing).       
Revelation 19:20    “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image.       
    These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”       
Revelation 20:10    “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for       
    the ages of the ages).       
Revelation 20:14,15    and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”       
Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with    fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment       
    ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest       
    (respite) day nor night...”     

3. SHEOL7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol.

Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.” Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”
4. TARTARUS5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment.

2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible.

“If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

II. WHAT IS HELL (GEHENNA and HADES) LIKE?

1.     UNQUENCHABLE FIRE: “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12. Hell “fire” is real “fire” because the same Greek word (pur) for fire is used for both. “It rained fire and brimstone...” Matthew 17:15 and Luke 17:29. 

    The rich man in hades said: “I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:24. 

2.     MEMORY AND REGRET. Abraham said to the rich man in hades “remember” in Luke 16:25. Lost people will remember their sins and the times that they rejected the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins and their need for Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. They will remember how Christians told them the plan of salvation. 

3.     THIRST. The rich man in hell begged Abraham to “send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue” (Luke 16:24), yet this was refused. Imagine going without water for one day, let alone for eternity without water. 
    Jesus Christ offers in John 7:37, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.” 

4.     SEPARATION. People in hell will experience a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between them and God. They took all the good things of life for granted when they were on earth. They will be forever separated from all the good gifts of God. Many unbelievers joke that “I won't be lonely in hell, as all my friends will be there.” Friendship means nothing under everlasting torment. 

5.     INJUSTICE AND FILTHINESS OF SIN are in hell. Revelation 22:11. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy let him be filthy still.” No one likes people treating them unjustly, nor do people like being abused in a filthy manner. The unsaved will experience these conditions forever in hell. 

6.     HOPELESSNESS FOR ALL ETERNITY. Hell is the everlasting dwelling place of the unsaved. Sooner or later they will realise that they are in hell to stay there forever, with no escape. In Luke 16:26, Abraham told the rich man in hell: “They which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us.” 

7.     STINK OF SULPHUR. “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (sulphur); which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8. 

8.     EYESIGHT, HEARING, TOUCH, TASTE AND SMELL are senses that people possess in hell. The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 could “see” Abraham, “hear” his voice, “touch” the flames, desire to “taste” water, and “smell” the sulphur. Revelation 21:8. 

9. THE DEVIL and DEMON ANGELS will accompany the Christ rejecters forever.

10. UNSATISFIED DESIRES. Both of the rich man's requests were denied in Luke 16:19-31. He requested a drop of water to cool his tongue, and for Lazarus to return to tell his five unsaved brothers how to be saved and avoid hell. Both requests were denied. How many times a day do you want something and get it? In hell, no one ever gets what they want.

11. PLACE OF WORMS. “Where their worm dieth not...” Mark 9:44,46,48.

Worm means maggot. If the maggots do not die, and the people own the maggots, then neither do the people die or get annihilated in hell.

12.     TORMENT and PUNISHMENT. “In hell, he lift up his eyes being in torments.” Luke 16:23. 

13.     SHAME and HATRED. “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. People suffering in hell will get a resurrection body. They will be judged, and sent to the lake of fire in shame at their sins. They will experience everlasting contempt, hating their situation forever. 

14.     DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL. “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.” Mark 6:11. 
    Those who reject Christ most often, will receive greater punishment. Matthew 10:15. 

15.     WEEPING, WAILING, GNASHING OF TEETH. “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12 and 13:49,50. People who today are arrogant, proud Christ-rejecters will be wailing and gnashing their teeth in hell. 

16.     HADES IS IN THE EARTH. Amos 9:2 “though they dig into hell ...”, 

Isaiah 14:9 “hell from beneath”, Ephesians 4:9 “descended into lower parts of earth”, Numbers 16:33 “they went down alive into the pit”,
Psalm 63:9 “those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.”

17. HELL IS ORIGINALLY PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

“Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41.
How does one get to hell? By neglecting to receive Christ as Saviour. Hebrews 2:3 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” How does one avoid hell? By receiving Christ as their Saviour. John 1:12.

Christians should work harder to rescue people from hell, and seek to build their church to better achieve this task, both at home and overseas.
Question 1:  Does “hell” mean “grave” where good and bad must go?

Answer: No, because in Luke 16:19-31 both men went to the grave, but the soul of Lazarus was comforted, and the soul of the rich man was tormented.
Question 2:  How can a loving God send people to hell?

Answer: People send themselves to hell by rejecting Christ. God is loving in sending Christ to die for our sins, but God is just in punishing sin.

III. JESUS' STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS in Luke 16:19-31.

An unbelieving rich man who had abundant material possessions and food in this life, died and went to hell. A believing poor man named Lazarus who had nothing in this life but sickness and poverty, died and was carried by the angels into the comfort of paradise. The suffering rich man in hell made two requests of Abraham in paradise:

i) To send Lazarus to put one drop of water on his tongue to relieve his suffering.

The rich man, who refused to show mercy to Lazarus in need, now begged that Lazarus might show mercy to him in his need (v.24). The rich man declares the greatness of his torment saying: “I am in torment (agony) in this fire (or flame).” v.24.
Lesson:    Material things have only temporary, not eternal value. Luke 16:25.

Abraham responded by calling him “son”. This means that he was a son of Abraham by flesh, not by faith. The rich man trusted his wealth and his physical descent from Abraham for his salvation. Christ showed that neither reason was sufficient for salvation. At death, one's eternal destiny is settled. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (v.26). The rich man could remember his false confidence in wealth, and his wrong devotion to it. This story refutes "soul-sleep", because the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort, and the other suffering torment.

Note: Hades had two sections: paradise and hell punishment. Jesus emptied the paradise section when He rose from the dead and took the Old Testament believers’ souls to heaven. Eph. 4:8-10; John 20:17.

“Torment” is used four times and means sorrow and grief.
Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not comfort the rich man:
a)    The rich man had received his reward (Matthew 6:2,5,16), and he had left God out of his life.
b)The great gulf separated them.

ii) To send Lazarus back to warn his five brothers. Luke 16:27-31.

The rich man did not say: “I'm glad my brothers will come here, we'll have a wonderful time together.”
People sometimes say: "I want to go to hell. All my friends will be there." Answer: There is no friendship in hell. Hell is a place of torment and loneliness.

Lesson: People in hell have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it, BUT WE CAN! What are you doing?
v.29-31: Abraham said that the only thing that could prevent his five brothers from coming to hell was:
Hearing the Word of God, and responding to it by faith in Christ as Saviour.

A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the Pharisees wanted to kill him (John 11:43-57; 12:10).
God had spoken many times to the rich man while on earth:
1.     God permitted him to have riches, but not attributing his riches to God’s goodness, he did not repent. 
    “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Romans 2:4-5. 
2.     Lazarus would have witnessed to him, but his pride rejected Lazarus’ message. 
3.     Old Testament scriptures spoke to him. 
4.     Lazarus dying first, should have reminded him how he would also die. In hell he was still self-centred, praying for his comfort and for the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners. C.S. Lewis says: “The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.” 

Lessons from the rich man and Lazarus:

1.     The souls of men do not die with their bodies. 
2.     The souls of men are conscious after death, not asleep until resurrected. 

3.     The righteous at death are taken immediately to a place of happiness and the wicked are sent to a place of misery and torment. 
4.     Wealth does not protect us from death. 
5.     We should not envy the rich, as riches can blind us to the reality of eternity. 
6.     We should seek a better inheritance than this life can give. 
7.     The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great of torment, burning flame, and insatiable thirst, forever. 

8.     Hell is a place of suffering beyond the grave. If not, this story has no meaning. 

9.     There will never be any escape from hell. The gulf is fixed. 
10.     God warns us to prepare for death through: 
His Word.

His Holy Spirit pleading with sinners. His servants.
His goodness leading us to repentance. Pleadings of friends.
Heaven.
If all that would not move sinners, then what would? He threatens hell.
11.     God will give us nothing more to warn us. No dead man will return to tell us what he has seen. If he did, no one would believe him. If you will not hear Christ or the Bible, there is nothing you will hear. You will never be persuaded, and you will never escape the place of torment. 
12.     We see the amazing folly of those wanting to go to hell. They have been deceived. 

IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF HELL FOR US TODAY

1.     Soul winning is important. When people get angry at a preacher preaching on soul winning, they are doing the devil's work. 
2.     We need to become fishers of men. Matthew 4:19. 
3.     If we are busy pulling souls out of the fire, we will not waste our time fighting other Christians. We will seek to maintain unity in our church. 
4.     We see our Church as of great importance in rescuing people from hell. Rescuing people from hell is a major purpose of churches. 
5.     Hell focuses our attention on eternity, taking our attention off petty present things like latest worldly fashions which pale into insignificance in the light of lost people going to an eternal hell. 
6.     Hell makes us train workers to be soul winners. 
7.     It gives us a love for people to win to Christ and to train in the Bible. 
8.     It makes us use our time wisely so that all we do helps in some way to rescue people from hell. 
9.     Hell makes us mission minded so that we try to win lost people to Christ overseas. For example, Roman Catholics in Africa grew from 52 million in 1980 to 92 million in 1993. 

10.     Hell and eternal judgment is the sixth principle of the Doctrine of Christ, so it must be emphasised in our doctrinal teaching. “the foundation of ……eternal judgment.” Hebrews 6:1,2. 
11.     Hell will give us a better testimony as Christians. If we sin, people will go to hell. 
12.     Hell will stop us backsliding because we will realise that our job is important to accomplish in rescuing people from hell. “For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36. What is your answer to this question? 

Conclusion

Are you really saved?

Have you received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, trusting Him alone to save you, not your religion or your good works?

If you are saved, then what are you doing to tell people how Jesus Christ can save them from hell?

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

Prove it.

 

The cross is despised by JWs as a pagan symbol. JWs think that Christ was nailed to a
straight upright pole called a stake, without a crossbeam. This is refuted by Thomas in
John 20:25 ‘Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails..’ Two nails here proves
a crossbar was used; one nail would mean a stake. Paul gloried in the Cross (Galatians
6:14).

 

JWs deny that Jesus died on a cross, claiming that Jesus was nailed to a torture stake (an
upright pole without any cross beam).

 

In their NWT they translate ‘cross’ as ‘torture stake’.

Definition: Cross in Greek is ‘stauros’ (4716) meaning ‘a Roman cross consisting of a
straight piece of wood erected in the earth, often with a transverse beam fastened across it’s
top and another piece nearer the bottom on which the crucified persons feet were nailed.’ (S.
Zodhiates, Complete NT Word Study, p.1308). They illustrate Christ’s death on a single pole
with his arms straight above his head with a single nail pinning his hands to a torture stake.

Question: Did one nail fasten Jesus’ hands above his head, or did two nails hold his hands
to the opposite ends of a cross beam?

Answer:

1) ‘But he (Thomas) said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,
and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not
believe’. (John 20:25). Both the KJV and NWT have plural ‘nails’, one used for each
hand, totalling 2 nails.

Ask: If Jesus was crucified on an upright stake, why does John 20:25 say that nails
(plural) were used, instead of a single nail?

2) When Jesus spoke of Peter’s future crucifixion, He said that Peter’s hands would be
stretched forth (out) as crucified on a crossbeam and not above his head on a pole. ‘But when you grow old you will stretch out your hands . . .’ (John 21:18,19 NWT).

Ask: From John 21:18,19 how can crucifixion be on an stake if the hands are outstretched?

3) Matthew 27:37 proves a cross crucifixion instead of a stake crucifixion:
‘And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE
JEWS’. If Jesus had died on a stake, it would have said, ‘over or above his hands’.

Ask: If Jesus was crucified on an upright stake, why does Matthew 27:37 say that a sign
was placed above Jesus’ head instead of above Jesus’ hands?

4) Early WT literature stated that Christ was crucified on a cross. Examples include:
Creation, p.265, 336; WT 1 Jan 1891 p.1277; ‘beginning with its issue of 15 Oct. 1931
the WT no longer bore the cross and crown symbol on its cover’ (1975 Yearbook, p.148).

Ask: Does a true prophet of God change position on important topics like this?

5) The WT ignores the facts that:
a) the Greek word ‘stauros’ means a cross as well as a stake, and
b) Romans did execute prisoners on crosses: the horizontal bar was called the
‘patibulum’. Prisoners were made to carry the ‘patibulum’ to their place of execution’
(Seneca, De Vita Beata 19:3; Epistola 101:12; Tacitus, Historicae, Vol 4, p 3)

6) WT claims that the cross was not used until after 312 AD as the sign of crucifixion, but
the cross has been discovered in excavations of Christian tombs much earlier than 312 AD.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

 

Your comment shows a vast ignorance of Scripture, my friend.

I think you have been brainwashed by a cult.

If you are a JW, that is not surprising since you are commanded NOT to think for yourself.

1983 "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)

1983 "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )

So, Jesus did not create everything?

You say God is a liar, then.

 

The Bible says " For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Notice here Jesus is also before ALL things. ALL.

Also, we read "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

I can quote the Greek and Hebrew if you like. But, you won't listen to anything that does not come from the watchtower, right?

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

 

You are very ignorant, my friend.

Show me some Bible verses as i have the refutations of ALL of the standard JW arguments.

ie: JW's use John 14:28 - ‘The Father is greater than I’ to say Jesus is not God or not equal to God.

If you are a JW, i know you are NOT ALLOWED to read this.


Watchtower teaching: The JW book Let God be True, 1946, p.110 says that Jehovah is
greater than Jesus in his office and person. Jehovah they say is intrinsically greater than
Jesus, and hence Jesus cannot be God Almighty. The JW book Reasoning from the
Scriptures, p.410, says, ‘The fact that Jesus is lesser than Jehovah proves that He cannot be
God in the same sense that Jehovah is’.

The Bible Teaching: In John 14:28 Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ
had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of
incarnation as a man. The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as
touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here
contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the Father’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Key: Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better
(Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a
greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.
i) The distinction is made clear in Hebrews 1:4 where ‘better’ (Gk: kreitton) is used to
teach Jesus’ superiority over the angels in His nature and position.
ii) This difference between ‘greater’ and ‘better’ is seen in this example:
‘The President of a country is greater (Greek: meizon) in position than his people,
but as a human being he is not better (Greek: kreitton) in nature than his people’.
iii) Jesus in becoming a man, not only took on a lower position than the Father, but also
took on a lower position than the angels. ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little
lower than the angels for the suffering of death’. (Hebrews 2:9)

Ask:‘Do you agree that a President is greater in position but not better in nature than his
people?’

Ask: ‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in
nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher
position and not his higher nature than Jesus?

Q: How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)

1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered
His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine
briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some
occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He
did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)

3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a
servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to
weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of
His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father
to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.

10. Mark 13:32 ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels . .
neither the Son, but the Father’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Christ was ignorant of the day of His return,
He cannot be Almighty God because God knows all things.

Bible teaching: Christ before His incarnation was one in person and one in nature (100% God)
Christ after his incarnation was one in person,but two in nature (100% God and 100% man).
He who had always been God, now took on a human nature at his incarnation. The attributes
of Christ’s human nature and divine nature are both correctly attributed to His one person.
Thus Christ at the same time had seemingly contradictory qualities, possessing both human
and divine natures:

He was finite, and yet infinite;

He was weak, and yet omnipotent;

He was increasing in knowledge, and yet omniscient;

He was limited to one place at a time, and yet omnipresent.

In Christ’s incarnation, His one person possesses the attributes of both divine and human
natures. Whatever is true of either His human nature or divine nature is true of His one
person. Christ sometimes operated as a man, and sometimes operated as God, all in the
one person. Christ in His human nature knew hunger (Luke 4:2), weariness (John 4:6) and
sleepiness (Luke 8:23). Christ in His divine nature was omniscient (John 21:17), omnipresent
(John 1:48) and omnipotent (John 11).

Key: At different times, Christ operated under the major influence of one or the other of
His two natures. He operated in the human sphere to achieve His purposes in salvation.

Both of Christ’s natures operated in many Gospel events:
i) Christ’s desire to eat a fig as he approached a fig tree reflected that natural ignorance of
the human mind (Matthew 21:19). (ie: in His humanity He did not know from a distance
that there was no fruit on the tree). But then He revealed His divine omnipotence by
causing the fig tree to wither.
ii) Jesus in His divine omniscience knew that Lazarus had died, so he set off for Bethany
(John 11:11). When Jesus arrived, He asked (in His humanness, without exercising His
omniscience) where Lazarus had been laid (v 34). Jesus, as the God-man is
simultaneously omniscient as God (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit), and yet
ignorant of some things as man (along with mankind).
iii) Jesus in Mark 13:32 was speaking from the vantage point of His humanity, as one
member of the human race who was not omniscient (not knowing the date of His return).
As a man his knowledge was increasing. As God it was infinite. If Jesus was speaking
from the vantage point of His divinity, He would not have said the same thing.
Note: In Christ’s divine nature, He is just as omniscient as the Father. ‘He knew what was in
man’ (John 2:25). ‘Now are we sure that thou knowest all things’ (John 16:30).
‘Lord, thou knowest all things’ (John 21:17).
‘In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge’ (Colossians 2:3)

Ask: ‘Can anyone other than God be omniscient?’ (No).
Ask: ‘Since Christ had both a human and divine nature, and since He used His omniscience
often, can you see that Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He said that He
didn’t know the day or the hour of His return?

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1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

You bring up a lot of ignorant statements trying to excuse your(?) religion.

There not statements, they're fact, proven, time and time again. This is the very reason why people tend to have problems with Christians to begin with, for at times such ones do not recognize the problem they have yet remain ignorant of it, as well as the teachings itself. I am not a Jehovah's Witnesses, I am very strict on the bible, Christian history, theology and a list of other things. When someone makes a claim to something that is not of the bible and is not pertaining to the Christology of what is true, it can and will be called out. You are not the first, nor will you be the last, regardless of who you are. If you knew the Christ, you would know how to treat others, mainly to those who are clearly seeking what is true rather than what is false.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

tudy the history of the watchtower. They have NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.

I study many religions, even Islam. If you know what the bible teaches, you broke one thing regarding those who seek what is true. You have also proven the status of mainstream Christianity.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

it has, if you take into account what God had said from the beginning of the prophet of whom he speaks that he will put his word. Something as such, the bible speaks about, something as such, one has to adhere to.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.
The Bible says that God the father is God.

You say this, but many seem to speak otherwise and confuse the two. I have also addressed such things of which you claim in another post before, you may want to check some of what you address via scripture, for it is known God has a sole dwelling place.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.

Did Jesus really say He was God?

John 8:58, attempting to compare ego eimi with ego eimi ho on is futile, it is rather weak and silly when one can see ego eimi I AM is not ego eimi I AM THAT I AM. The fact that you try to compare the two and see it as selfsame just proves my point further to what I addressed before.

John 1:1 The word is indeed from God, the Word itself is God and the man who speaks God's Word is also called the Word. What you missed is Deuteronomy 18:18 where God made mention of the prophet who is to come, Jesus, for it is very evident. That is why the people have wait for the Messiah who revealed himself in John chapter 4, and even today, they still await for him. You do not read the verses for context and you miss cross references

John 20:28? Typical. I made a post for that today, look it up on Bible Discussion, what is explained there just halted your resolve.

Hebrews 1 is of Jesus' exaltation, especially as to what he addressed in Matthew 28:18, we also know Jesus is Lord because God made him Lord upon resurrection and has exalted him, making him far superior to those in heaven. I have also addressed Isaiah 44:6 and what Jesus himself said in Nazareth when he had the scroll of Isaiah in hand. So the claim you are attempting to make holds no water.

Revelations 1:17 is regarding the risen Jesus in why he is deemed the firstborn out of the dead, as well as the being the first of the fruits, the new creation of which he is the first and last of, the beginning of the new creation as they say, which consist of the new earth and the new heavens.

Again. such things have already been mentioned, addressed in detailed comments by me, clearly to post everything at once here will take up quite  few pages, and I am known for detailed and concise information.

Apparently you fail to see the cross-references to Psalms 18:31, such verses point directly to the Father, for you did state God is the Father.

The funny thing is you are mixing even the law of the Jews to make it seem as though Jesus is God, a very weak attempt, friend, very. Even a Shia can spot such mistakes. The irony is there is 2 passage you mentioned that shatters your claim entirely,a law of which Jesus professed a child, as did his human parents, who also professed this law, but you do not know it.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

Look at what Jesus said a few verses after that, his response in challenge to these Jews, he revealed that he was God's Son. Jesus even spoke of the written law of which God himself had said, in Psalms 82:1, 6, which can also be seen in 1 Corinthians 8:5. For the law speaks of men being gods, for that is indeed the law of which Jesus professed what was written and cannot be broken.

Again, your cross references should tell you that, even bible hub makes mention of such references, yet you remain blind as a bat to such, yet have the audacity to speak of cross-references in another claim of yours. You are sure making yourself the one in the wrong here.

Also, Jesus and his disciples are one, so are true Christians, perhaps a read further in John, and a bit more in Colossians and Ephsians will reveal this simple fact to you, and even a few verses back from verse 30, Jesus speaks of the flock being one with the shepherd. Why ignore these and say on John 10:30? Hypocritical much?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

So by your logic, a blind man is God also? (John 9:9) I AM, to be brief, is a common Greek saying, ego eimi means I exist, in Exodus its ego eimi ho on, meaning I am that I am/choose to become, ion Hebrew, it's eyeh asher eyeh.

There is no Torah context because outside of the Torah I AM or I AM HE/BEEN has been used. You are trying to make a claim that holds no foundation, you fail to explain context also.

 

Since you mentioned Muslims, they know the context very very well, even one of them who is clearly not a fan of Christians, Hamza Myatt, the Lion of Speaker's Corner. Muslims have something big in common with Christians, they recognize the law of which Jesus professed as a child, which can be seen in sura 112, whereas the verse itself in the bible is in the Torah. They also recognize the difference in I AM (ego eimi) and I AM THAT I AM (eog eimi ho on).

Jesus wouldn't be addressing he is the God of Israel, if a Jew who profess the law, Jesus, recognized what the law is, how can you call him a God? This is what Galatians 4:4 says what it says.

God himself is bounded by no law or Law Covenant.

As for blasphemy, I suggest you read and understand what Leviticus 24:16, Matthew 9:2,3 and Matthew 26:64, 65 even says and understand what it means.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Clearly you cannot see for you are blind, and your disdain for a group makes you a broken man

Already addressed

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/57385-john-2028-my-lord-and-my-god/

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

God dwells in True Christians also, for such ones are also one with God as well as with the Christ

Colossians 2:10, Ephesians 1:20, 21 and 1 Peter 3:22

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

 

Addressed Thomas already 2 Peter 1:1-3 "God of". Peter's testimony further proves he recognize Jesus is God's Son, the clearest of them all is seen in Matthew 16. What kills your claim is what he addressed in 1 Peter 1:3, he identifies the Father as the only God.

You use that other verse in question because it reads out "knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord," the irony is further down the chapter, we know Peter was a witness on that mountain when Jesus transfigured and God spoke, he even, again identifies God as the Father in the same chapter, verse 17.

And it seems you like to Westernize the word proskuneos. David was worshiped by his servants, does not make him God, so was angels when they met Lot. The bible makes it clear total servitude and religious worship is for God and He alone, any worship by means of honor and respect is not religious worship.

You revealed yourself to be an Arian, who is in favor of Jesus religious worship instead of God the Father, who do you think his anger is going to blaze towards for a man who breaks God's Law?

 

God's blood? You do realize God is incorruptible right? Your credibility just put on a cape and flew out the window, friend.

You also have many errors in this response, and the obvious copy and paste nonsense you are spreading.

Therefore, a dog who barks, and does not bite, is not a dog at all.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

Deu. 18:18

Also comparing theon and theos on I see? θεόν (THEON) is clearly different from θεὸς (THEOS)

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

You shot yourself in the foot just now: as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Cracks on the boat, yeah?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Read what was addressed.

Do you not know what was written of which Jesus speaks of? Verses down he says both the scriptures cannot be broken, same goes for what is written, and he reveals to us he is God's Son. Take into account the cross references to because since you brought it up, start using them.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Actually the cross references make a direct point tot he LAW itself, Jesus quoted what was WRITTEN, anything WRITTEN derives from the LAW, this can be found in Deu. 5:9 for religious worship of God the Father, 6:13 of the Shema Law, Deu. 10:20 religious servitude. You claim to know Jesus but fail to realize "what is written and what is foretold" comes from that of the Law itself and the Old Testament?

That is very telling you that you fail to realize that. That just shows you copy and paste but spare no time to read. How do you claim faith if you fail to recognize what "it is written" means?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Addressed Isaiah 44:6. Also it points to Revelations 22:13 and several verses in Isaiah. Revelations 1:17, Jesus is the first and the last of the new creation that consist of the new heavens and earth, in addition to those who make up the Spiritual House, God even presents the bride, the chosen 144,000, to the Lamb. God is the first and the last regarding Adam and Eve and everything after that prior to Christ's death and the authority and power he gave to the Christ, his Son.

 

Revelations 1:8 is God the Father, we get more information on several verses such as Exodus 6:3, that even makes a direct reference to the Father himself.

El Shaddai, the one and True Elohim, is always the Father, Abba.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

Clearly you do not grasp that this ONE Jesus speaks of, is the Father,perhaps you should read further down that verse. Again, G\The Father here is identified as God, you shot yourself in the foot, another time.

 

As for the rest of your claims, half of them I addressed in the past, and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that I see from such ones like you, such ones in Hyde, such ones in the US, such ones in the EU, such ones in Dubai, such ones in the Middle East, like I say here, I've been around and I know quite a lot.

Everything else here and what you addressed afterwards have already been disproved, but a clear copy and paste coming from you is and will not help your resolve.

A man who does not know what Jesus professed in regards to the law is a lost man, blind even. You pasted a verse that you didn't explain that Jesus holds to high importance regarding the law, which in itself, kills any claim you make about him being God, ironically.

Therefore the errors and twisting of of verses can be seen from a mile away.

That being said, you claim to know the Christ and say others deny him, yet you fail to recognize even the most basic thing every man knows Jesus for, to quote what is written, if you got that wrong out of your bag of errors, you've proven yourself to be not as credible as you claim.

 

Just another typical mainstream who happens to cross paths with me, one who lacks biblical hermeneutics.

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2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Your comment shows a vast ignorance of Scripture, my friend.

 

No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Show me some Bible verses as i have the refutations of ALL of the standard JW arguments.

You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

ie: JW's use John 14:28 - ‘The Father is greater than I’ to say Jesus is not God or not equal to God.

According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only,  bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

If you are a JW, i know you are NOT ALLOWED to read this.

Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.

As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.

God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards. The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9). We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.

John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.

Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works (John 5:36, 14:10,), hence why Jesus has mentioned time and time again to believe in him and the one who has sent him, this was also the affirmation of the early church, who, in turn are also one in Christ, such can easily be seen by the epistles of Apostle Paul. We later found out in John 17:20-23 that Jesus prays (his final one) that Christians will be one with the Father and he himself just as he is one with the Father. With this information in mind, it is very evident of what is being said here. It does not mean they are therefore God. Here we can see clearly that Jesus sees this oneness in terms significantly different than what the this hate preacher would have us believe. For this reason, such blind ones usually disingenuously disregard John 17 when citing John 10:30 for the sake of their accursed doctrine. And it is very clear they do this for a reason, nonsense of which is being seen here in public.

It is also good to see that Jesus explains how he was one with the Father - United Will For Christ Lord, Jesus tells us that he did not come to do his own will but only the will of the Father (John 6:38), and we know 100% God sent his Son, the messenger, the prophet, to speak His Word to the people so they believe he is from God the Father, in addition to his works to further prove himself that he was indeed sent. He also tells us he only said what the Father told him to say, hence why the Father is indeed, greater than the Son (John 8:26,28, 12:49-50; 14:24) He was not able to do anything from himself, by himself, as the Muslims say it, he cannot do anything on his own (cannot do a single thing), but only what he saw the Father doing (John 5:19), and Jesus kept his Father's word (John 8:55). Throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus reminds us over and over in similar ways. He was one with the Father in terms of purpose and will because he always obeyed the Father and kept His word. Jesus did not do his own will. There was only one will between the Father and Son, the Father's will.

My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish His work. (John 4:34, cr. 17:1-5).

Long story short, for I am not going to go full out thread mode on this verse itself, there is a whole long to be said here, but clearly this is not the thread to post such, but with every fact and evidence we have, even the brief ones mention. If we are honest, we can see that he, Jesus, was one with the Father the same way his disciples are expected to be with God, in the unity of the Holy Spirit in terms of purpose and will. In such a manner in which he was praying in Gethsemane for all believers to be one with him and the Father, they in us, and us in them. Clearly, the oneness of Jesus and the Father in these passages refers to oneness of function in the unity of the Holy Spirit of God. He was one with the Father in purpose and will and for this reason he prays for his disciples to be one with him and the Father, just as we are one.

So when we look at what Jesus had said, The Father is Greater than I am, for the head of the Christ is God, we take into seriousness of what he met by that response and take into context what the bible gives us information on, clearly this has not been addressed, let alone fully, John 10:30, I got one in the chamber for that one, but I will not speak more in depth for it is quite the response that demands a thread.

Hebrews 1:4 informs us clearly on Jesus' exaltation, in fact, the majority of Hebrews 1 and what the author of Hebrews is trying to convey, such has always fulfilled prophecy hence Jesus being at the right hand side of his Father. He does not prove that he is God for the one who has exalted him in Heaven is the one who has risen him, the one who has made him Lord (Acts 2:36). This is why Paul makes it known to the early church to believe and thank in God the Father, for our Lord Jesus Christ, for God resurrected him, and made him superior to that of his Spirit Being counterparts, for this one has God given authority and power and will soon carry out judgement in his Father's name, for God is Justice, and the Lamb will enact Justice against the wicked by means of his Father. Exlation was not really due to nature, per-say, it was due to what role Jesus had in God's will and purpose, the very fact that Jesus tasted death for us, as stated in the other verse you posted, Hebrews 2:9, what was not mentioned by you is that Jesus' death opens the way for the New Covenant. Moreover, God's grace by means of his Son's sacrifice is evident, providing amnesty for us, and a chance to repent and seek salvation, of which is deemed a hard fight to maintain as read in Jude 3. We are not immune to sin or death, so maintaining faith is key, for even in death, the opportunity for a resurrection is very possible, but should you stray away from God's Laws or what the bible teaches, death is what you'll be continuing to embrace. That being said, Jesus was clearly lower for he was the only begotten, the only one to be birthed as a man, the only one to become flesh in this regard, born of a woman, into the Law of which he profess, learning about his God and Father, eventually becoming the Christ and doing the works of his Father and spreading the gospel of good news, with followers who listen, he died for us, he had risen, made known of the promise of what his Father will give, which took place at Pentecost, he had ascended and was exalted by his Father, being far soupier than this angelic counterparts in Heaven, battled with Satan and is now ready to enact Justice in the name of his Father and bring about the Spiritual House in regard of the New Creation, and when he gives back the Kingdom to his Father, God himself will put an end once and for all to death itself and death/hades, will be no more, for that is the last enemy and onward, God's purpose as is flourishes.

Athanasian Creed, that just proves me point even more, another thing is, what you do not realize is what seems to be lacking, the many important features which you, a Trinitarian claim to believe.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in
nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher
position and not his higher nature than Jesus?

God the Father's position is not temporary. God has and will always be the one above all, he is the Eternal King, the El Shaddai, Almighty. You think the Father's position of being higher is temporary? God clearly has not filled out a job application for positions, friend. No one is equal to him nor is anyone above him, he is the One True God of Israel, he is my Father, your Father, he is My God, your God.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)

Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God is not to be, according to Paul, considered equal to God. This is coming from a man who understood one of the greatest and foremost laws of which Jesus professed as an adult as well as being a child, as did the Jews in those days, to us Christians today, as well as today's Jews and Muslims who profess this from birth until their death. A common thing we all share and a worldwide acknowledgment of such. But clearly, you do not know of which I speak, thus brings who is really ignorant according to your claim. Moreover, the scriptures show us that bowing down before God the Father's Anointed One is to bow down before God the Father Himself because His Anointed One executes the authority of His throne. Nowhere does it states to religiously worship and show total servitude to God's chosen one, if we are honest, we would know the obvious answer to that.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered
His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine
briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some
occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He
did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)

1. Being God and a Man at the same time is like saying you can be moral and immortal at the same time. What you missed about Jesus' transfiguration is that there were witnesses, Peter was one of them, they also bore witness to God speaking to Jesus and Peter, James and John were present. In fact, Peter made acknowledgment of this in his testimony, of what he had witnessed that day. So one cannot say to mankind if only 3 people were present that day, and we later see of what Jesus had said to them afterwards (Matthew 17:9).

2. Jesus was not all knowing. We know he is unaware of the day or hour of Judgement itself, is is very evident for we see this in Mark 13:32 (also mentioned in Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7) and we know only God the Father knows as the other verses have stated and this one (1 Thess. 5:1,2). In addition, Jesus cursed a Fig Tree, for Jesus said the following in Mark 11:14 and the response from Peter (Simon Peter) in Mark 11:21 was also mentioned.

If we are honest, we know that that Jesus is not all knowing unlike God the Father. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and was present on earth, as the Son of Man, to teach the teachings of his Father, for what he says is not based on his originality, again John 14:10, but of the Father’s. Jesus also made this known several times, as well as in John 12:49. We also see in John 5:36 Jesus stated he was assigned such a task by God the Father.

You are also taking the verse out of context, John 2:24, 16:30 (Jesus was not the one speaking the things known in question is what he taught that came from the Father), 20:17 (again, of what Jesus taught that came from the Father, take a good look at John 10:14,15 also)

John 3:13 does not prove omnipresence. Mainly when you take into context Acts 2:34, John 6:38, 8:23, 42. Jesus was in Heaven, then he was on earth as a man, had died, had risen, returned to Heaven, taken by a cloud and two angels. And then theirs Mattias who joined the crew, Judas' replacement.

According to the Old Testament, God is not like a man or a son of man and we know God is incorruptible. So you are calming you have 2 Gods now? Binitarian I suppose. Anyways, you can clear see in Matthew 28:18 that authority and power was given to Jesus, who gave it to him, God the Father, Ephesians 1:20, 21 an Philippians 2:9 is cr'd with this verse.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a
servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to
weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

Yet somehow death is a possibility, as well as a sense of trouble? Finding himself to be a human being, Jesus had no thought of exalting himself or regarding a plunder to be equal to God. Rather, he humbled himself becoming obedient to death. Recognizing his humanity, Jesus humbled himself before his God serving his God doing God's will even in the face of death. Jesus did not come to be served by to serve and give his life. He learned obedience from what he suffered. As he himself taught, those who humble themselves will be exalted and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. Jesus did not exalt himself over others. Let us be reminded what Apostle Paul is teaching the Philippians. Not to think of themselves as superior over others but to humbly serve them in love. Jesus is their example and as children of God, even as he was a child of God, they are to walk in his footsteps. In the next chapter, Paul himself offers himself as an example, for he emptied himself counting all things as loss to know Christ and to be conformed to his death.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of
His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father
to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.

Even when he has risen and is made Lord, Jesus is nowhere equal to or above his Father, who is God, no mater how you try to knock it. As a baby, as a child, a teen, into adulthood, to his death, in Hades, being risen, returning to heaven,being exalted, nowhere, was he equal to his Father. Seriously, one has to be really honest with themselves and read for context in the passages than assume. The factor here too, you claim 2 Gods, when there is one.

The truth of the matter is simple, Jesus' comment about his Father is true, as is the very evidence of the bible speaks for itself (John 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3, 15:28, Php. 2:5, 6). In addition to that, we have words from John, Paul and Peter, such ones affirmed what the law is all about and clearly, they know that God is the only Father, and that Jesus is the Son, and out of the two, John and peter, they were witnesses of God speaking to Jesus, and had made acknowledgment of such.

That being said, Trinitarians as well as Binitarians do not like context, even when said context speaks against their beliefs and doctrine.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

10. Mark 13:32 ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels . .
neither the Son, but the Father’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Christ was ignorant of the day of His return,
He cannot be Almighty God because God knows all things.

Jesus is indeed ignorant of the day and the hour. The bible makes it clear several times and even acknowledges that God the Father, regarding that day, is said to be on time and like a thief in the night. The only thing you have to worry about is the sword that Jesus will be bringing to a firefight (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53).

To say this is a JW teaching is absurd and pure tom foolery, you do not take what the bible says seriously, don't you?

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Bible teaching: Christ before His incarnation was one in person and one in nature (100% God)
Christ after his incarnation was one in person,but two in nature (100% God and 100% man).
He who had always been God, now took on a human nature at his incarnation. The attributes
of Christ’s human nature and divine nature are both correctly attributed to His one person.
Thus Christ at the same time had seemingly contradictory qualities, possessing both human
and divine natures:

You have 2 Gods now, whres your 3rd one? Other than that, God has an obvious nature that does not have anything to do with man, that is, incorruptible. Like I said before, the bible says it also, God is not a man nor a son of man, he does not tell lies, nor can he die or taste death, he is not like men like us and he is the life giver, the God of the living and the also the dead.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

He was finite, and yet infinite;

He was weak, and yet omnipotent;

He was increasing in knowledge, and yet omniscient;

He was limited to one place at a time, and yet omnipresent.

He's not everywhere at once, nor is he all knowing, etc. Learn what the bible speaks about Jesus and about God. One has a dwelling place, one roam the earth, risen back to Heaven and remains at the right hand of God.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

in Christ’s incarnation, His one person possesses the attributes of both divine and human
natures. Whatever is true of either His human nature or divine nature is true of His one
person. Christ sometimes operated as a man, and sometimes operated as God, all in the
one person. Christ in His human nature knew hunger (Luke 4:2), weariness (John 4:6) and
sleepiness (Luke 8:23). Christ in His divine nature was omniscient (John 21:17), omnipresent
(John 1:48) and omnipotent (John 11).

The bible does not say Jesus operates as both a man and a God. Do not add to the Scriptures please, for that is a silly explanation.

Luke 4:2 we all know the temptation, Jesus, quoted what was written also for verse 3 points to Deu. 8:3, even Satan recognize that Jesus is God's Son and clearly what happen after this confrontation, angels from God came to minister to Jesus. God's Spirit is upon Jesus, do you not believe his words in the same chapter in verse 18? Not to mention, Jesus had the Scroll of Isaiah in hand while he was in a Synagogue in Nazareth, and again, he quotes what is written, that should tell you something. As for Luke 8:23, the Father is clearly with Jesus, which in turn, enables him to do such miracles such as this. If we are using logic here, those of God and those who are enemies of God can also perform miracles too, it does not make either of them God, example in Exodus 17, Moses kept his hands up so the Israelites would prevail in battle, should he lower it, the tables turn quickly, with Aaron's help, Moses kept his hands up for such a miracle to continue on until the Israelites won, that does not make Moses God, as did the others who also perform miracles too. John 4:6, Jesus was legitimately tired from his travels. Clearly the man needed to drink due to his weariness. John 21:17 was already addressed, I believe several times. John 1:48 Not omnipresent, granted with what was said the brief conversation between Philip Nathaniel (Bartholomew) regarding The Messiah and the Laws of Moses that speak of the prophet. It was obvious he would recognize of the one God said in the days of old of who is to come (Deu. 18:18), in addition to what Go said to Abraham and what God had already set in motion after Adam and Eve sinned. The prophet of who the people await as the Messiah, that is, Jesus. The irony is you added a verse from John 4, everyone knows of whom the Samaritans were waiting for, they kept the Torah, and even today they, still residing in Mount Gerizim, await Jesus to return. John 11 perhaps because, again, God is with him? You seem to forget that the Father is literally, always with Jesus, granted what he said in verse 4, clearly Go asks and God gives, as seen in verse 22, verse 27 Jesus is the Christ is the Son of God and what went down in verse 41-42, the one who sent him, the one who abides in him, enabled him to perform such a miracle, as later on, his God' given authority will enable him to perform resurrection at a larger scale.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Key: At different times, Christ operated under the major influence of one or the other of
His two natures. He operated in the human sphere to achieve His purposes in salvation.

Yet clearly God was with him and that is why he is able to do what he does, he does not do such on his own, therefore, the Father being with him, Jesus was able to do such things, as with anyone God is with as seen in the bible.

Jesus does not have his own purpose, he he cannot do a single thing without the Father, the Father enables his purpose and will through his Son.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

wall of text

Yet you still attempt to add things to scripture and continue to equal Jesus to the Father. Anything more you wish to share with the class? The bible discussion room is already booked on the holy spirit.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘Can anyone other than God be omniscient?’ (No).

Only the Father, not Jesus. But than again, you believe in many Gods, so perhaps for you, the answer is multiple choice.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘Since Christ had both a human and divine nature, and since He used His omniscience
often, can you see that Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He said that He
didn’t know the day or the hour of His return?

Jesus was very unique, there is no question about that, but he is not God, for a variety of reasons, i.e. law of the Jews. Judging on what the chapter is about, Jesus was not shifting back and forth in what he had to say. Jesus was speaking about the end time and tribulations that is to come and informing us what it is all about. There is no shifting in nature as you claim, if that was the case, it would be evident in most of the 37 verses, yet somehow only 1 verse you make this claim and not o the others. Another factor is you show a total disregard of what others have said about Go'd Judgement Day against the wicked. He was not talking about his return, just simply the day of which God had already set for what is to come, such a day is set by the Father himself, according to Paul.

 

That being said, I can get to your other responses that have many errors, at this point it is sheer bible defense, not only you are bad mouthing another faith, you are turning the scriptures into a Frankenstein monster that I believe you do not even makes sense. 100% man 100% God? Since you like to mention Muslims also, Speaker's Corner will have a field day with the claims you make and since 2015, such claims is causing the decline in what you believe, surely it would have been your faith opponents, but that didn't work out too well now did it?

 

At the end of the day, you are not putting scripture into context, you claim the other faith denies Jesus yet you do not take Jesus'words seriously. That is hypocrisy, for you are breaking scripture, as seen what is written and said by Jesus himself, and you are adding to the Word, of which God made a Law in this regard in Moses day.

Surely, you can do better than copy and paste, it was not the typos I was looking at, it was the broken context and jumbling of words and passages. You claim to know Jesus yet do not know what it is written means, come on now, the most novice of any bible reader, even a novice JW can spot that silliness easily. You fail to open your eyes to what the bible says, therefore, the ignorance claim of which you speak, is sitting on your table, not on my table for clearly there is a distinction, one who knows the bible, the other who quotes from a source with pre-determine responses, passages and other fortune cookie nonsense.

Therefore, it is safe to say who is really saved, those who know what the bible teaches, and those who are not saved, clearly blind, speak of an accursed doctrine.You don't like the word Trinity, but you should it, the Creed comment was obvious.

With that said, I would make a response to your other claims, I see error and confusion, but you are not worth the time after you fail to see Jesus quoting a law, and the fact you put 2 specific verses in your responses that automatically disqualifies everything you have said in your copy/paste comments. Talk about taking an arrow to the knee.

Like I said before, a dog with a bark but no bite is not a dog at all.

 

Clearly,  maintaining ignorance to falsehood, does not matter if you are a JW, former or not, falsehood will not get you saved.mainly if you accept it and ignore the truth. period.

 

 

FYI, as a small remark to your HELL comment, I guess by your logic David may be there also (Psalms 139:8).

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On 6/19/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jesus.defender said:

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

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@Anna Exactly, 100% right. The funny thing is, they never want to read beyond verse 30, because they know it would stop their claims dead in it's tracks. The same goes for John 20:28, only this time, they don't want to read before - knowing that Thomas was not present when the risen Jesus appeared, and only then when the disciples came and then Jesus was revealed to Thomas, to his shock, he said what he said, and the passage itself is regarding seeing is believing, especially when Thomas is being talked about for he doubted that Jesus had risen. Hence why one can call back to what Jesus had said which connects with this passage, John 14:10-11; 12:44-45.

It is pure annoyance when people deny the truth itself that comes from the scriptures, at the same time, they HATE when someone is right for saying what is 100% correct to what the bible says, they remain in denial, they accept "as is" claims from mainstream Christian, example John 10:30, such ones say this proves Jesus is God, but when told the truth, they don't want to hear it. This also goes for those who are ignorant or misinformed about one's faith, why they believe this and that when it come from scripture, for such ones have more sense than those who believe in what the man-made version of Christianity that is professed by a lot of people around the world who do not accept what is true.

Not to mention the type of Christians (Molech believers) who take delight in the death of others, or the fact that since they believe in fire torment and that God is omnipresent, being there 24/7 to watch endless torment of people, these types of Christians do not know ANYTHING about what Gehenna is nor do they know what Hades is. Such ones fail to see that God himself, emotionally, reacted to fire torment in the Old Testament. For God the Father said it best himself:  I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination. (this is but one of many verses regarding such). Mainstream ones do not know this, yet they practice this doctrine that is false of fire torment.

The very reason why salvation is only vital by those who profess 100% what the bible says, those who follow accordingly to how the church is structured and operate, as did the 1st century Christians, or organization, as they say, the very word that is not fun to use by, in this case, JW opponents, they fail to see a faith itself is pretty much Religious organization, no matter how hard they try to knock it.

SHE the church, the people IS the church, and HER teaches will remain intact, anyone who says otherwise of HER and HER people, is clearly not taking anything seriously, be it the bible or the church or what God says.

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On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.

 

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.

According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only,  bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my friend. :)

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards.

 

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9).

Yes, God DID create all things. I have no problems there. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." 

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

 

We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

 

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.
 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works

That is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

 

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

 

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

 

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On 6/21/2018 at 9:57 AM, Anna said:

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him.

 

“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” 

 

 

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The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.

2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.

3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855

‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.

John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).

All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).

All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)

4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.

5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)

6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”

7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.

8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?

9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5

10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.

11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.

12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.

13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?

14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.

15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.

16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.

17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God

18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.

19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.

20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).

Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?

21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).

22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”

23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.

24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.

25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.

26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God

27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.

28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24

29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35

30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.

The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.

31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.

Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.

Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty

32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.

Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.

Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.

Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.

Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ

33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”

35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.

36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.

37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1

38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”

39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”

Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.

40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”

In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.

41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.

42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.

43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.

44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).

45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.

“For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).

Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.

46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.

One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”

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THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD SEEN IN NATURE.

Question: How is the Trinity of the Godhead seen in nature as in Romans 1:20 ‘for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Answer: a) We see God’s eternal power in earthquakes, volcanoes, wind, millions of stars, galaxies, waves, floods, lightning, sun, moon, nuclear bombs, etc.

b) We see the Trinity of the Godhead with so many things coming in ‘threes’, reminding us of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all three members of the creator Godhead. Examples include:

1) The Physical Universe: Space, mass, time.

2) Space: 3 dimensions of space are: length, breadth, height.

3) Mass: 3 phases of matter are: solid, liquid, gas.

4) Time: 3 tenses of time are: past, present, future.

5) Light: 3 directions of light wave oscillation are: horizontal, 
vertical, back and forward.

6) Colours: 3 primary colours of light are: red, blue, yellow.

7) Kingdoms: 3 Kingdoms are: Animal, vegetable, mineral.

? Animal: 3 main kinds of Animal are: fish, bird, land animals.

9) Minerals: 3 main kinds of Minerals are: igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic.

10) Heavens: 3 heavens are: atmosphere, space, God’s throne.

11) Man: 3 components of Man are: body, soul (personality), spirit. (I Thess. 5:23).

12) Divine institutions: 3 Divine institutions are: marriage, human government, church.

13) Musical notes: 3 notes make up a musical chord.

14) Sub-atomic particles: 3 main sub-atomic particles are: proton, electron, neutron,.

15) Mankind: 3 divisions of the human race: Jew, Gentile, Church of God. (I Cor.10:32).
 

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Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Hupostasis or ὑπόστασις which Walter says refers to the nature and substance the Father and Son share

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 


John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

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      5. both accept worship (Exodus 34:14; I Chronicles 16:29; Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:9)
      6. both laid the foundation of the earth (Psalm 102:24-27; Isaiah 48:13; Hebrews 1:10-12)
      7. One God has created mankind (Mal. 2:10; Prov. 16:4; Isaiah 44:24; Col 1:16; John 1:3)
      8. both are the Shepherd (Psalm 80;1; Gen 49:24; John 10:11; Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4)
      9. both are from Everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 7:3).
      10. both are the First and Last (Isaiah 44:6; Revelation 1:17,18; Rev. 2:8; See p.54).)
      11. both are the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:5-7; 22:13-16; See p.54)
      12. both come and Reward (Isaiah 40:10; 62:11; Revelation 22:12)
      13. both are unchangeable (Malachi 3:6: Hebrews 13:8)
      14. both have unsearchable riches (Romans 11:33; Ephesians 3:8)
      15. both are the Holy One (Isaiah 43:15; Acts 3:14)
      16. both are omnipresent and fill all things (Psalm 139:7; Jer. 23:24; Eph. 4:10; John 3:13)
      17. both are omniscient (Psalm 147:5; Prov. 14:3; John 21:17; John 16:30; Colossians 2:3)
      18. both are omnipotent (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:3)
      19. both are eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Hebrews 7:3; Micah 5:2)
      20. both own the everlasting Kingdom (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 7:14; II Peter 1:11)
      21. both are Lord of all (Psalm 103:19; Matthew 11:25; Acts 10:36)
      22. both are the only Saviour (Isaiah 43:11; Titus 1:3,4; Philippians 3:20; II Peter 1:1; 3:18; Luke 2:11; Hebrews 5:9; Acts 4:12)
      23. both are the Truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6)
      24. both are sinless (Deuteronomy 32:4; Hebrews 4:15)
      25. both are in the beginning (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1)
      26. both God and the Son are the Judge (Psalm 82:8; John 5:22), but the Father is not the Judge (John 5:22 ‘The Father judgeth no man’).
      27. both are our Hope (Psalm 39:7; I Timothy 1:1)
      28. both shelter believers under their wings (Psalm 91:2,4; Matthew 23:37)
      29. both are our Redeemer (Psalm 130:7,8; Isaiah 44:6; Galatians 3:13; Titus 2:14)
      30. the glory of both was seen by Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3,5; John 12:41)
      31. both are the Rock (Deuteronomy 32:3,4,18; Psalm 18:31; I Corinthians 10:4)
      32. both are to be looked to for salvation (Isaiah 45:22; John 1:29; John 6:40)
      33. to both shall every knee bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:10,11)
      34. the enemies of both shall perish (Psalm 92:9; Philippians 3:18,19)
      35. both send the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28; John 16:7)
      36. to both shall all men come (Psalm 65:2; Isaiah 45:24; John 12:32)
      37. both forgive sins (Exodus 34:7; Mark 2:5,7; Colossians 3:13)
      38. both blot out sin (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 1:3; I John 1:7)
      39. both still storms (Psalm 107:29; Matthew 8:26)
      40. both own the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:20; Romans 8:9)
      41. both seek the lost (Ezekiel 34:16; Luke 19:10)
      42. to both are applied 10 aspects of the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13; see page 954)
      43. both receive believers to glory (Psalm 73:24; John 14:3)
      44. both are our One Master (Malachi 1:6; Matthew 23:8,10)
      45. both are served by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; Colossians 3:24)
      46. both lead believers to living waters (Psalm 23:2; Revelation 7:17)
      47. both correct believers (Proverbs 3:12; Revelation 3:19)
      48. both prepare a place for believers in heaven (Hebrews 11:16; John 14:2)
      49. both are all in all (I Corinthians 15:28; Colossians 3:11)
      50. both are known by believers (Galatians 4:9; Philippians 3:10; John 17:3)
      51. both are cleaved to by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; John 15:4)
      52. both are the light of the world (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12)
      53. both are the Light of the New Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:19,20; Revelation 21:23)
      54. both give eternal life (Psalm 36:9; John 10:28)
      55. both are called ‘My Lord and my God’ (Psalm 35:22,23; John 20:28)
      56. both are our Righteousness (Isaiah 45:24; I Corinthians 1:30; Jeremiah 23:5,6)
      57. both have the same voice as of many waters (Ezekiel 43:2; Revelation 1:15)
      58. both are witnessed to by believers (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 1:8)
      59. both own the peace given to believers (Philippians 4:7; John 14:27)
      60. both own the gospel (I Thessalonians 2:2; Romans 1:16)
      61. both give saving grace (Titus 2:11; Acts 15:11)
      62. both are our peace (Judges 6:24; Ephesians 2:14)
      63. both are pierced and looked upon (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37)
      64. both sanctify believers (Exodus 31:13; I Corinthians 6:11)
      65. both give victory to believers (Psalm 98:1; I Corinthians 15:57)
      66. both heal people (Exodus 15:26; Matthew 9:35)
      67. both equally own the churches (I Corinthians 15:9; Romans 16:16; I and II Thess. 1:1)
      68. both own the Kingdom (Matthew 6:33; Rev. 11:15).
      69. both are glorified by the Gentiles (Isaiah 24:15; II Thessalonians 1:12; Matthew 12:21)
      70. both own the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6; Philippians 1:6; II Thessalonians 2:2)
      71. both give grace to believers (Romans 5:15; Colossians 1:6; II Cor. 8:9; Galatians 6:18)
      72. both own the same glory (Romans 5:2; II Corinthians 8:23)
      73. both own the same love (John 5:42; II Corinthians 5:14)
      74. both own the same Word (Psalm 119:11; I Thessalonians 2:13; Colossians 3:16)
      75. both own salvation (Luke 3:6; Jonah 2:9; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 2:10)
      76. both were served equally by Paul (Titus 1:1; Romans 1:1);and by James (James 1:1)
      77. both own the commandments (I John 5:3; John 14:15)
      78. both had their way prepared by John the Baptist (Isaiah 40;3; Mark 1:1-3)
      79. both search all hearts (Psalm 139:1; Revelation 2:23)
      80. both own the same flock (I Peter 5:2; John 21:15,16)
      81. both ascend on high, lead captivity captive, and give gifts to men (Psalm 68:17,18; Ephesians 4:7-10)
      82. both are like a Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Mark 2:19,20)
      83. both receive the glory of God alone forever and ever (Isaiah 42:8; Galatians 1:4,5; I Peter 5:10,11; II Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:21; I Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:5,6)
      84. both are the source of fruit (Hosea 14:8; John 15:5)
      85. both are our source of strength (Psalm 119:28; Philippians 4:13)
      86. both give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:29)
      87. both shall appear at Christ’s return (Psalm 102:16; Zechariah 14:3,4,5; Titus 2:13)
      88. both will come to earth (Isaiah 40:10; Revelation 22:7,12,20)
      89. both are to be trusted in (Jeremiah 17:7; Ephesians 1:12; John 14:1)
      90. both are our King (Isaiah 6:5; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 19:16; I Timothy 6:14,15)
      91. both will wound their enemies’ heads (Psalm 68:21; 110:6)
      92. both take vengeance (Romans 12:19; II Thessalonians 1:7,8)
      93. both will be opposed by the Antichrist’s armies (Isaiah 34:22; Revelation 19:19)
      94. both will fight against the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 19:11,13,21)
      95. both will destroy death (Isaiah 25:8; II Timothy 1:10).
      96. both receive the faith of believers (I Thessalonians 1:8; Galatians 3:26)
      97. both are our life (Deuteronomy 30:20; Colossians 3:4)
      98. both are to be prayed to (Matthew 6:9; Acts 7:59)
      99. both raised up Christ (Acts 2:32; John 2:19,21)
      100.both own all of the other (John 16:15)
      101.both enter the east gate of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 44:1,2; Luke 19:37-45)
      102.the man on the throne in Ezekiel 1:26 is identified as the God of Israel in Ezek 10:20
      103.both names are placed on the same level in the baptism formula (Matthew 28:19)
      104.both fellowship equally with believers (I John 1:3).
      105.both comfort believers (Isaiah 66:13; Philippians 2:1).
      106.both receive doxologies of worship in heaven (Revelation 5:8-10; 5:11,12; 5:13,14).
      107.both jointly send grace and peace to the churches (Romans 1:7).
      108.both the love of the Father and love of the Son are an equal privilege given to us.(John 14:21)
      109.both jointly declare themselves to be Jehovah, “I am the first,& I am the last”(Isaiah 44:6)
      110.both come to his temple, ‘the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple.’(Malachi 3:1; Mat 21:13)
      111.both are the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6; John 1:49).
      112. both can be blasphemed (God-Rom.2:24; HS-Luke 12:10; Christ-Luke 22:65; Acts 13:45; 18:5,6; 26:9,11)
      113.both are always with all believers (Matthew 28:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
      114.both are the one lawgiver (God-Rom.7:22; Christ-Gal.6:2; HS-Rom.8:2; James 4:12).
      115.both have the same face (Revelation 22:3,4)
      116.both have the same Name (Revelation 22:3,4)
      117.both own the same servants (Revelation 22:3)
      118.both are the Temple of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22)
      119.Heavens are the work of thy hands (Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:10-12)

      Since both Jesus and the Father have these same attributes, both are Jehovah God.
      There are not 2 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. One who has these attributes must be God.
      The Lord’s Prayer is devoted to worshipping the Father. Jesus conceals His personal glory
      in this prayer as seen by other Scriptures which are just as true of Christ as the Lord’s Prayer
      is of the Father.
    • By Jesus.defender
      The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God
      1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.
      2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.
      3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855
      ‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.
      John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).
      All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).
      All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)
      4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.
      5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)
      6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”
      7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.
      8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?
      9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5
      10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.
      11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.
      12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.
      13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?
      14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.
      15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.
      16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.
      17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God
      18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.
      19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.
      20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).
      Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?
      21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).
      22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”
      23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.
      24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.
      25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.
      26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God
      27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.
      28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24
      29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35
      30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
      The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.
      The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.
      31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.
      Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.
      Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.
      Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty
      32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.
      Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.
      Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.
      Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.
      Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ
      33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”
      35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.
      36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.
      37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1
      38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”
      39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”
      Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.
      40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”
      In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.
      41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.
      42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.
      43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.
      44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).
      45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.
      “For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).
      Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.
      46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.
      One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”
    • By Brother Rando
      Scientists are among the most intelligible people on earth, or at least, they would like us to think they are.  One must consider the source, that a significant number of scientists are atheists, denying the possibility of a higher intelligence.  Imagine this scenario, youÂ’re a scientist who studied our universe for countless years.  Then a Bible Student comes to your House and shows you one simple scripture.  “He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, Suspending the earth upon nothing;” (Job 26:7)  That one simple scripture proves a higher intelligence does it not?  If you think that Scientists will suddenly acknowledge that the Bible is a Book of truths and knowledge, then think again.  There is a huge monetary motive for rejecting the Bible.  If these things are already explained, then there is not such a huge call to fund Billions of dollars for Educational Programs, and what about their position?  Job security is a huge motivation in itself.
      Here’s another: “He wraps up the waters in his clouds, So that the clouds do not burst under their weight;” (Job 26:8)  Simple isn’t it? The findings in Science is actually backing up the Bible. 
      At one time, our earth in its infancy didn’t rotate.  How do I know this?  Deductive Reasoning from Scripture.  “After that God saw that the light was good, and God began to divide the light from the darkness. ?God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.” (Genesis 1:4-5)  This is when the earth first began to rotate on its axis to cause a division of Day and Night.  Really good Science!   
      Fractal Patterns, Golden Angles, and the Fibonacci numbers are Repeated Intelligent Patterns/Designs that are expressions of a Highly Intelligent Designer, Jehovah God.
       

    • By sami
      ONE OR THREE?
      In his book TWO BABYLONS, Alexander Hislop traces the various mythologies back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”.
      Historian Arthur Wainwright can find no doctrine remotely resembling the doctrine of the Trinity taught in Judaism until the time of Philo in the first century AD. And we know that Philo, even though he was a Jewish priest, was heavily influenced by Greek pagan thought.
      The idea of a “plural” God was far from the Hebrew mind.
      The pagan idea of a triad is very old. Sumerians, according to Morris Jastrow, paid homage to a triad of El-lil, “god or lord of the storm”, Ea, “water deity” of Eridu on the Persian Gulf, and Anu, sun god of Ur-uk.
      El-lil, was called “the father of Sumer” (“Shinar”), and “chief of gods”, “creator and sustainer of life”. The universe was apparently up among these three “pre-eminent” deities.
      Later, Marduk, the “firstborn” of Ea, and the patron deity of Babylon, is made “god of the earth”,
      and his symbol, oddly enough, is the dragon. He was called “Bel” or “Baal” (lord).
      Ashur, the god of the Assyrian capital was a “sun god”, and his consort or wife was Ishtar, the “great mother” goddess of Nineveh, a city founded by Ninus or Nimrod.
      Ishtar, known as Ashtoreth to the Phoenicians, and Astarte to the Greeks, was often portrayed riding on a lion. She was called the daughter of the moon, and identified in astrology as the Roman Venus (“goddess of love”). She was also known as Nana or Madonna (Lady). From whence comes the title and worship of Mary as the Madonna and queen of heaven.
      Ishtar has a bloody history as a goddess. She was reputedly the murderer of her consort Tammuz (variously known as Baal, Adonis, the Egyptian Osiris, the Greek Bacchus, or simply Nimrod). Queen Semiramis later brought forth an illegitimate son, which she claimed was Nimrod resurrected. He was called El-Bar, or “God the Son”, and “the Branch of Cush”. Thus was formulated one of the ancient triadic patterns of “father, mother, son”
      Franz Cumont tells us that triads were very common in the religion of the Chaldeans. The Babylonian triad became the Syrian triad of Hadad, Atargatis, and Simios. In Rome, this triad was Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury. Not only did the triadic pattern of deity spread throughout the world, but Cumont remarks on the continuing influence of the Babylonian priesthood after the fall of Babylon from political leadership.
      The ancient Greeks impressed with the wisdom of the Babylonians. Franz Cumont said, “Philosophy claimed more and more to derive its inspiration from the fabulous wisdom of Chaldea (Babylon) and Egypt”.
      According to Cumont, the “entire neo-platonic school is heavily indebted to the Chaldeans (Babylonians)”. It was the neo-platonic school of philosophy which influenced the Catholic fathers, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.
      Porphyry reveals that the neo-platonists had incorporated Babylonian and Persian demonology into their philosophical system.
      The Greek philosopher Plato, greatly influenced the Catholic fathers. He was acquainted with Babylonian wisdom, and had traveled to Babylonia, Israel, and Egypt.
      Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD) of Alexandria was the man who attempted to fuse the strict monotheistic theology of the Hebrew religion with the transcendental theology and philosophy of the Greek platonists.
      He, Philo, had a profound influence upon the Catholic fathers, and therefore upon the development of the Catholic Trinity.
      For one looking into Philo’s work will see that his conception of the Logos, with some modifications, is very similar to later trinitarian teaching on the Catholic Logos.
      Charles Semisch has stated, “The early (Catholic) Fathers only poured the contents of the scriptures into a Philonian vessel: they view the biblical passages through a Philonian medium”.
      I thought that the quote by historian Will Durant is quite appropriate: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.
      . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” In the book Egyptian Religion, where Siegfried Morenz says: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
      Morenz goes on to say “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
      Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity said : “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
      Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.”
      The book…. The Paganism in Our Christianity said this of the trinity doctrine: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
    • By Jack Ryan
      The Bible clearly shows where it is written that he himself says he does not. Only the Father knows.
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY
      Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:
      i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.
      Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.
      ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.
      Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.
      iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).
      Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).
      Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).
      iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.
      Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.
      Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’
      This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’
      v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 
      They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.
      They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
      ‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)
      Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.
      They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

      1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers
      The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.
      In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:
      1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
      2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.
      We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.
      The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.
      The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:
      i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
      ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
      but also calls Christ ‘God’
      iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
      iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
      Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
      v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
      vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
      vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45
      2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:
      i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.
      ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..
      iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.
      iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
      ‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)
      - About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?
      - 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.
      - 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.
      - The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.
      - The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.
      v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.
      vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.
      This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).
      vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.
      Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
      ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
      “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
      [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
      ‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
      The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.
      Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.
      3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33
      ‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’
      Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.
      Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.
      i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.
      ‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)
      ‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
      As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
      ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?
      iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?
      Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.
      I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
      having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
      ‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
      ‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.
      5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29
      ‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?
      Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4
      If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.
      It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’
      The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’
      Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?
      If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
      then we have proved the Trinity.
      i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
      ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
      (1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
      (2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
      (3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
      (4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
      (5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
      (6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
      (7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
      (8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
      (9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
      (10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
      (11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
      (12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
      In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘??????’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
      (13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
      (14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)
      6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:
      (1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
      (2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:
      ‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).
      ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6
      ‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26
      ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22
      ‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7
      ‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8
      ‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4
      ‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.
      (3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:
      Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
      the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’
      I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’
      Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’
      Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.
      II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.
      (4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:
      a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
      b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
      c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
      d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
      12:10.
      e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
      f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.
      Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?
      Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?
      Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY

      Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
      Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
      Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
      1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

      Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
      Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.

      Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
      This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
      i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
      ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
      iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
      What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
      Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
      He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
      article (tou):
      Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
      Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
      i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
      The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
      ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
      ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.

      iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
      iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).

      Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
      2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
      JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
      shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:

      i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
      ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
      iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
      iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
      Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
      This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
      Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
       
      3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
       
      JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
      II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’

      How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
      4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
      Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
      outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
      Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
      corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).

      5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
      none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?

      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
      ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
    • By Jack Ryan
      Holy Land's 'oldest church' found at Armageddon
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. First published on Mon 7 Nov 2005 05.28 EST Prisoners help unearth remains at jail on site of final biblical showdown

      As if Megiddo, the biblical city of Armageddon - scene of three millennia of battles, the last cavalry charge of the first world war and the final showdown between good and evil - did not have enough on its plate. Archaeologists now claim to have unearthed the remains of the oldest Christian church discovered in the Holy Land.
      Unfortunately for Israel's beleaguered tourism industry, the find was made behind the walls of one of the country's maximum security prisons.
      Inmates were put to work alongside the specialists to excavate a corner of Megiddo jail for the construction of a new cell block ready for the next intake of Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants.
      Toiling behind the barbed wire and watchtowers, they uncovered a detailed and well-preserved mosaic, the foundations of a rectangular building, and pottery dated to the third or early fourth century. One of several inscriptions on the mosaic floor in ancient Greek said the building was dedicated to "the memory of the Lord Jesus Christ".
      Other inscriptions name a Roman army officer, Gaianus, who donated money to build the floor, and a woman called Ekoptos who "donated this table to the God Jesus Christ in commemoration". The table is believed to have served as an altar.
      "There are no crosses on the mosaic floor," said Yotam Tepper, an archaeologist who led the dig on behalf of the Israeli Antiquities Authority. "In their place is a picture of two fish lying side by side - a very early Christian symbol.
      "This is an extremely dramatic discovery, because such an old building of this type has never been found either in the land of Israel or anywhere else in the entire region. The structure and the mosaic floor date back to the period before Christianity became an officially recognised religion, before St Constantine.
      "Normally we have from this period in our region historical evidence from literature, not archaeological evidence. There is no structure you can compare it to - it is a unique find."
      The Roman empire forbade Christian rituals before AD313 and Christians were forced to worship in secret. The earliest churches, until this discovery at Megiddo, include the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, said to stand on the site of Christ's crucifixion, dating from about AD330, and the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. The inscriptions at Megiddo were interpreted by Professor Leah Di Segni of the Hebrew University.
      "I was told these were Byzantine but they seem much earlier than anything I have seen so far from the Byzantine period. It could be from the third or the beginning of the fourth century," she said.The use of the word "table" in one inscription instead of "altar" might advance the study of Christianity, she said, because it is widely believed that rituals based on the Last Supper were held around a table used as an altar.
      The church might never have been discovered had it not been for the needs of Israel's ever-demanding security apparatus. Megiddo prison is home to about 1,200 "security prisoners" who are held in "administrative detention" without ever being told exactly what it is they are accused of.
      The prison is a series of fenced-in compounds with the bulk of inmates sleeping in long brown army tents enclosed by barbed wire and surrounded by open sewers. The prisoners nicknamed the jail "Jabaliya" after a poor and overcrowded refugee camp in the Gaza strip.
      Megiddo has long been described by religious scholars and archaeologists as the most important biblical site in Israel. Over the centuries, more than 25 cities rose and fell at Megiddo. Some were powerful commercial centres on the ancient thoroughfare between Egypt and Mesopotamia.
      Five of the conflicts fought in the 30-mile-wide Jezreel valley around Megiddo are recorded in the Old Testament. The New Testament names Armageddon - a Greek corruption of the Hebrew word "har", meaning mount, and Megiddo - as the scene of the final great battle between good and evil.
      Some specialists remain sceptical about the latest discovery. "I think this is a little myth to boost tourism," said Michel Piccirillo, a respected biblical archaeologist. "The idea that it is ancient comes from the pottery and the shape of the letters on the inscriptions, but this is not definitive."
      Israel's tourism minister, Avraham Hirchson, is not deterred. "If we nurture this properly, then there will be a large stream of tourists who could come to Israel. There is great potential ... " he told national television.

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    • By Brother Rando
      The Book of Daniel is the angel Gabriel’s witness to Daniel about God’s Kingdom.  Gabriel gives details about God’s Kingdom, what that Kingdom will do for mankind, and he witnesses about the coming Messiah and identifies to Daniel who the Ruler of God’s Kingdom would be.
      “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,” (Daniel 2:44)
      “You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.  “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” (Daniel 9:25-26) The Hebrew word Messiah is translated ‘Christ’ in English.  The prophecy mentions “7 weeks, also 62 weeks”—a total of 69 weeks.  Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years. If we count from 455 B.C.E., a period of 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) The Jews in 29 CE where in expectation of the arrival of the Messiah!  “Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?”  (Luke 3:15)
      In the final Chapter of Daniel, Gabriel gives detailed information about the Ruler of God’s kingdom that would mark the End of the Gentile times.  At that time, “
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. — Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  The prophecy is detailed to Daniel in the following scripture from Gabriel. “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1) Yes in 1914, Michael the Great Prince stands up to begin Ruling as King of God’s Kingdom.  Michael is the Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6, the Prince of Peace, the Angel of Great Counsel who is Wisdom in Proverbs 8.  Michael is the one Philippians spoken of has being given the Name. “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus,  who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.  No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.  More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake” (Philippians 2:5-8)
      For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,  so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—  and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)
      “And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne.” (Rev 12:5)  “And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.  So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Rev 12:7-9)
      Notice what the following verse calls Michael. “I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
      “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!  And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.” (Rev 12:10-11)
      “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)  Commanding Call, an Archangel’s Voice and with God’s Trumpet all point to the Word of God, the Lord himself Jesus Christ.  “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4)
      Then Gabriel tells Daniel: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12:9-10)
      “If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing,  among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
      “For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake.” (2 Corinthians 4:5)  “For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10) “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
      This is a small synopsis of the scriptures of the glorious good news about the Christ.  To gain understanding to keep on living: “Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time,  while you throw all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you.” (1 Peter 5:6-7)
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    • By The Librarian
      The Final Week of Jesus’ Life on Earth - timeline.pdf
      The Final Week of Jesus’ Life on Earth - scriptures.pdf
      The Final Week of Jesus’ Life on Earth - audio only.zip
      The Final Week of Jesus’ Life on Earth - scriptures & audio.pdf
    • By Brother Rando
      The Memorial of Christ is not the Last Supper that the world continues to celebrate. The Last Supper can also be rendered the Last Passover Meal. The Jewish Day began at Sunset.  Since the Sun sets at various times, the Passover Supper would begin after the Sun disappeared from the Horizon with darkness setting in. The Last Passover Meal was Nisan 14th, 33 CE with the abolishment of the Old Covenant.
      When evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples. ?While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to you, one of you will betray me.” (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )   The event that concluded the Last Passover Meal was the dismissal of an unfaithful apostle.  Jesus answered: “It is the one to whom I will give the piece of bread that I dip.” So after dipping the bread, he took it and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. ?After Judas took the piece of bread, then Satan entered into him. So Jesus said to him: “What you are doing, do it more quickly.”  ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. )  “So after he received the piece of bread, he went out immediately. And it was night.” ( Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) After dismissing the betrayer from the midst of the Faithful Disciples, Jesus instituted a new teaching for His Faithful Followers.  Notice, the whole world wasn’t invited, but those who proved to be faithful and trustworthy up to this point.  Since the founding of the Christian Congregation on Pentecost 33 CE, Christians have been commemorating the death of Jesus Christ every Nisan 14th.  With one simple command,  his faithful sheep “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Please join us for the annual observance of the death of Jesus Christ. This year it will be held on  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .   Search for your 
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    • By The Librarian
      The Holy Bible > List of Biblical Persons > Jesus Christ

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  or posts tagged "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ"
      Jesus (/ˈdʒiːzəs/; Greek: Ἰησοῦς Iesous; 2 B.C.E. (timeline) to 33 C.E.), also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, is the Son of Jehovah God and the awaited Messiah of the 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .The name Jesus (Gr., I·e·sous′) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.” The name itself was not unusual, many men being so named in that period. He is also referred to as Jesus Christ, from the Greek Khri·stos′, the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi′ach(Messiah), and means “Anointed One.” Our Modern day, most widely used Gregorian calendar uses the terms B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini = Year of our Lord in Latin) basing our current year of 2014 as the year since his supposed birth according to a medieval estimate.

      The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. In heaven he was known as Michael the Archangel. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo′gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,”Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, His firstborn Son. This is direct opposition to the popular and later teaching of the Trinity by the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
      Sir Isaac Newton weighed in on the identity of Michael the Archangel

      That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

      Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”—Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

      Jesus began his life billions of years before the first human ever existed (Compare Mic 5:2.) and was used by his father in the creation of all of the universe (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17) and the other angels and spirit creatures in heaven (Da 7:9, 10; Re 5:11),

      Jesus was conceived by 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  being transferred from his heavenly life as Michael the Archangel into the womb of a virgin named Mary who was engaged to Joseph. He was born in Bethlehem as a human baby in the year 2 B.C.E.. A star shined above his birthplace guiding astrologers to pay tribute to him.
      He was later raised in Nazareth where  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  
       
       
      See also:
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Is Jesus a "Mediator" for God and All Men?  
      The Memorial of the Death of Jesus Christ
    • By Brother Rando
      Praised be {Jehovah} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 1:3) Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (John 17:1)  This means everlasting life, their coming to know YOU, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. (John 17:3)  I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. (John 17:6)  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. (John 17:22)  Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. ?I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.” (John 17:25-26)
      You must pray, then, this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. ?Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.” (Matthew 6:9-10)  Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; ?whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it. (Matthew 17:13-14)  Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32)  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)  Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)  No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him,and I will resurrect him on the last day. (John 6:44)
      “That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” 
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    • By The Librarian
      Jesus looked for secluded areas to pray in contrast with long public prayers for the sake of appearance. 
      One of his shortest prayers was “Father,  into your hands I commend my spirit” (23:46)
      The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus “when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying” (3:21)
      and on and on...
      If following Jesus Christ in the gospel of Luke means doing as Jesus does, then prayer is a vital part of being a follower of Jesus. 
      Have you said a prayer yet today?
    • By Kurt
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Brother Rando
      Who would reject the Baptism in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ? The Answer may surprise you.  In fulfillment of prophecy Jesus stated, “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
      The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
      “The Demonstratio Evangelica” by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus’ actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” That “Name” is Jesus.
      The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:“It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”
      Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. “The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.” — Joseph Ratzinger (pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83.
      How did the Hebrew Book of Matthew 28:18-20 read? “Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations in MY Name,  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Hebrew Matthew 28:18-20)
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    • By Brother Rando
      Many religions teach that the soul is immortal and that it never dies. What is your take? Can the soul really die?
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