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Brother Rando

The trinity and it’s false theology.

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You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?

Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)

According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 

If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?

Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)

Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 

    Hello guest!
   A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  

    Hello guest!
, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read 
    Hello guest!
)

Those who deny 

    Hello guest!
and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26)

Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.

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5 hours ago, Brother Rando said:

You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?

Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)

According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 

If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?

Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)

Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 

    Hello guest!
   A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  

    Hello guest!
, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read 
    Hello guest!
)

Those who deny 

    Hello guest!
and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26)

Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.

I had to speak with a Trinity believer the other day and the conservation goes as followed:

Who is God?

Jesus.

Ok so who is the mediator?

Jesus

Who raised the Christ from the Dead?

God.

But you just said Jesus is the medator and that Jesus is God? If Jesus is God who did he raise from the dead and who is his mediator.

in a high tone of voice: JESUS IS GOD AND HE RAISED HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD

But the bible says God raised Jesus from the dead, making him Lord and whatnot.

Who is the one who died?

Jesus

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Jesus

>_< Jesus is the Son

Is Apostle Paul and John lairs?

No.

Then why do you not believe God raised Jesus from the dead and that Paul addresses Jesus as a mediator to men to mankind?

No answer. begins to insult me for speaking bible truth.

(it leads to nonsense and some power ranger-sque evading tactics to not answer the question)

And then he goes on to Christian/Religious Infighting

You deny Jesus and all that jazz, yet he cannot answer questions that derive from the bible itself.

 

Trinitarians are like circus clowns, they do one thing, the next second, they do something else, in a sense, they do the same with the bible, adding things in there and twisting what the scriptures even means, leads to utter nonsense.

It comes to a point that even Muslims have to teach and refute Trinity believers on their own bible.

 

 

Other than that, good post, you do justice to those who are fed up with the Trinity, the very confusing doctrine that is part of the Christian decline problem.

 

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When sharing a teaching from Christ, trinitarians tend to reject the Words of Christ, and then substitute foreign teaching contrary to what Jesus Christ said.  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."(Mark 10:18)

Trinitarians hate this scripture because Jesus Christ said it.  They claim he was wrong and that HE is God alone.

Pay attention to the beginning   "Why do you call ME good?"  Then they say you are saying Jesus is bad!!  I'm simply showing what Jesus did say.  Please stop putting words in Jesus mouth and claim I'm the one saying it.  IT's DISHONEST.

If Jesus is God alone, then what happened to 'the three separate persons"? Then getting louder they start to scream INSULTS.

If jesus is God, then why does Jesus state  "No one is good--except God alone."

 

If Jesus was God then, wouldn't Jesus have said "thank You"????  "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."(Mark 10:18) is a scripture that trinitarians forgot to delete from the Bible. :P

 

 

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Of course not.

 

CHRISTIANS will be saved.

 

JW's DENY Jesus, DENY the Holy Spirit, DENY hell and DENY the cross.


Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Gal. 2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus" 

Acts 4:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

 

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
 

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gospel-test-for-jws.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

JW's DENY Jesus, DENY the Holy Spirit, DENY hell and DENY the cross.

JWs adhere to the teachings of Jesus, they do not believe Jesus is God for there is a clear distinction between God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) and Jesus, who is the Son of God. Is it hypocrisy if one, such as yourself, speak ill of another man who does the work of spreading the good news gospel, yet you do not adhere to command and commission? The answer is clear.

Clearly you do not have the Holy Spirit because of what you just posted breaks a very clear quality of what a Christian must profess, but you read the bible don't you? This should be very evident to you and we know what Jesus says about those who do not adhere to the law (Matthew 7:23), especially to someone such a s yourself who have no idea of what the Law of which every True Christians is bounded to.

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Gal. 2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus" 

Acts 4:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Quote yet no explanation. A dog who barks but does not bite, is no dog at all. You also make a small misstep on your part here.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

  • Mormons do not preach the good news gospel, they believe they can be equal to God, they also believe God himself actually had intercourse with virgin Mary, they also only adhere to the book of Mormon and hold a strong view in polygamy and child marriage.
  • JWs, are Restorationist, nuff said. Hardcore Bible pressed also, meaning stick to what the bible says, always.
  • SDA believe in the Trinity, so technically, they are JWs who accept the Trinity. They also believe being part of the nation to fight for a cause.

Clearly you do not read the bible very much, unless you are here to troll, it can easily be seen.

Your picture show holds no foundation also. therefore, your spirit has been tested, 1 John 4:1.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

JWs adhere to the teachings of Jesus, they do not believe Jesus is God for there is a clear distinction between God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) and Jesus, who is the Son of God. Is it hypocrisy if one, such as yourself, speak ill of another man who does the work of spreading the good news gospel, yet you do not adhere to command and commission? The answer is clear.

Clearly you do not have the Holy Spirit because of what you just posted breaks a very clear quality of what a Christian must profess, but you read the bible don't you? This should be very evident to you and we know what Jesus says about those who do not adhere to the law (Matthew 7:23), especially to someone such a s yourself who have no idea of what the Law of which every True Christians is bounded to.

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

Quote yet no explanation. A dog who barks but does not bite, is no dog at all. You also make a small misstep on your part here.

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

  • Mormons do not preach the good news gospel, they believe they can be equal to God, they also believe God himself actually had intercourse with virgin Mary, they also only adhere to the book of Mormon and hold a strong view in polygamy and child marriage.
  • JWs, are Restorationist, nuff said. Hardcore Bible pressed also, meaning stick to what the bible says, always.
  • SDA believe in the Trinity, so technically, they are JWs who accept the Trinity. They also believe being part of the nation to fight for a cause.

Clearly you do not read the bible very much, unless you are here to troll, it can easily be seen.

Your picture show holds no foundation also. therefore, your spirit has been tested, 1 John 4:1.

You bring up a lot of ignorant statements trying to excuse your(?) religion.

 

Study the history of the watchtower. They have NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.

 

I prefer to address one topic per comment, so will address the Biblical Jesus topic here.

 

Please address one at a time for any further comments, please.

 

JW's DENY the Jesus of the Bible.

 

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.
The Bible says that God the father is God.
The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 


John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14

And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.

 

   HELL

In the New Testament, 162 passages speak about unrepentant people going to hell, and 70 of these were described by Jesus, as he warned people to avoid it.

When the unsaved die, they go immediately to hell. Later, at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth, the unsaved will leave hell, receive their resurrected bodies, go to the Great White Throne Judgment and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they remain forever (Revelation 20:11-15).

I. FOUR BIBLE WORDS THAT DESCRIBE HELL:

1. GEHENNA1067 referred to the continually burning rubbish dump on the south west side of Jerusalem, known as the valley of the sons of Hinnom (or Tophet). Jesus used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of everlasting punishment because hell is a place of filth and stink, a place of smoke and pain, a place of everlasting fire and suffering. This garbage dump was likened to hell. It is used as a name for the place of everlasting punishment of the lost. It occurs twelve times in the New Testament. It is the ultimate hell of fire. It is the same as the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15).

Matthew 5:22 “whosoever shall say, “Thou fool”, shall be in danger of hell fire” (gehenna of the fire).

Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 5:30 “And if thy right hand offend thee ... and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell” (gehenna).
Matthew 10:28 “...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (gehenna).

Matthew 18:9 “And if thine eye offend thee, ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into
 
        hell fire” (gehenna).       
Matthew 23:15    “Pharisees, ... ye make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna)       
        than yourselves.”       
Matthew 23:33    “Ye serpents,... how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (gehenna).       
Mark 9:43    “And if thy hand offend thee, ... two hands to go into hell (gehenna), into the       
        fire that never shall be quenched.”       
Mark 9:45    “And if thy foot offend thee, ... two feet to be cast into hell (gehenna), into the       
        fire that never shall be quenched.”       
Mark 9:47    “And if thine eye offend thee, ... two eyes to be cast into hell fire” (gehenna of       
        fire).       
Luke 12:5    “Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell” (gehenna).       
James 3:6        “the tongue is ... set on fire of hell” (set on fire by gehenna).     

2. HADES86 is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell (gehenna), the Lake of Fire. It is where unsaved departed spirits reside. Luke 16:23. Hades never denotes the physical grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost. Hades occurs 10 times in the New Testament, and Sheol, the Old Testament equivalent occurs 59 times. Hades is associated with privation, detention and just punishment of the unsaved dead.

Matthew 11:23 “Thou, Capernaum...shalt be brought down to hell” (hades).

Luke 10:15 Hades here expresses Capernaum's absolute overthrow, from pride to humiliation.
Matthew 16:18 “The gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it” (the churches’ attack). Luke 16:19-31 “And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments931 (punishment)”

v.23. Hades here has two compartments, close to each other, yet different.
Acts 2:27    “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades).”
Acts 2:31    “That his (Christ's) soul was not left in hell (hades).”

Christ here descended into the underworld of the departed (Ephesians 4:9,10), to take the believers in it (eg: thief on the cross) up to heaven. Believers now go to heaven at death, while unbelievers still go to hades at death, a place of punishment.

Revelation 1:18 “I (Christ) ... have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Revelation 6:8 “a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell (hades) followed with him.” Hades here is personified as the temporary destiny of the unsaved.

Revelation 20:13 “death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” Revelation 20:14 “death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire.”

Note: Fire is used 27 times in the New Testament to describe the after-death punishment
 
of unbelievers and of demons.           
2 Thessalonians 1:8 “In flaming fire    taking vengeance on them that know not God, and       
    obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”       
Matthew 13:42, 50    “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.”       
Matthew 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47    “cast into fire unquenchable, hell fire.”       
Isaiah 66:24    “... look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against       
    me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”       
    Mark9:44,46,48.           
Isaiah 33:14    “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?       
    Who among us shall dwell with the everlasting burnings?”       
Matthew 18:8    “Two hands or two feet be cast into everlasting fire.”       
Matthew 25:41    “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil       
    and his angels.”           
Jude 7    “Sodom and Gomorrha ... an example suffering the vengeance of       
    eternal fire.” (Literally: of fire eternal, the penalty undergoing).       
Revelation 19:20    “Beast, .. false prophet, ... and them that worshipped his image.       
    These were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”       
Revelation 20:10    “the devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (for       
    the ages of the ages).       
Revelation 20:14,15    and Rev. 21:8 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”       
Revelation 14:10,11 “tormented with    fire and brimstone ... the smoke of their torment       
    ascends up for ever and ever (for ages of ages), and they have no rest       
    (respite) day nor night...”     

3. SHEOL7585 is hades of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, it means the depth, abyss, pit, world of the dead, underworld. It occurs 66 times in the Old Testament (grave 31 times, hell 30 times, pit 3 times). Though all Old Testament people went to the grave, the souls of some will receive punishment in sheol.

Numbers 16:30 “Korah, Dathan and Abiram went down into the pit.” Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol).”
4. TARTARUS5020 is the deepest abyss of Hades; a place where evil angels are imprisoned in torment, awaiting judgment and everlasting punishment.

2 Peter 2:4 is its only reference in the Bible.

“If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

II. WHAT IS HELL (GEHENNA and HADES) LIKE?

1.     UNQUENCHABLE FIRE: “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12. Hell “fire” is real “fire” because the same Greek word (pur) for fire is used for both. “It rained fire and brimstone...” Matthew 17:15 and Luke 17:29. 

    The rich man in hades said: “I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:24. 

2.     MEMORY AND REGRET. Abraham said to the rich man in hades “remember” in Luke 16:25. Lost people will remember their sins and the times that they rejected the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins and their need for Jesus Christ to be their Saviour. They will remember how Christians told them the plan of salvation. 

3.     THIRST. The rich man in hell begged Abraham to “send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue” (Luke 16:24), yet this was refused. Imagine going without water for one day, let alone for eternity without water. 
    Jesus Christ offers in John 7:37, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.” 

4.     SEPARATION. People in hell will experience a “great gulf” (Luke 16:26) between them and God. They took all the good things of life for granted when they were on earth. They will be forever separated from all the good gifts of God. Many unbelievers joke that “I won't be lonely in hell, as all my friends will be there.” Friendship means nothing under everlasting torment. 

5.     INJUSTICE AND FILTHINESS OF SIN are in hell. Revelation 22:11. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy let him be filthy still.” No one likes people treating them unjustly, nor do people like being abused in a filthy manner. The unsaved will experience these conditions forever in hell. 

6.     HOPELESSNESS FOR ALL ETERNITY. Hell is the everlasting dwelling place of the unsaved. Sooner or later they will realise that they are in hell to stay there forever, with no escape. In Luke 16:26, Abraham told the rich man in hell: “They which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us.” 

7.     STINK OF SULPHUR. “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (sulphur); which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8. 

8.     EYESIGHT, HEARING, TOUCH, TASTE AND SMELL are senses that people possess in hell. The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 could “see” Abraham, “hear” his voice, “touch” the flames, desire to “taste” water, and “smell” the sulphur. Revelation 21:8. 

9. THE DEVIL and DEMON ANGELS will accompany the Christ rejecters forever.

10. UNSATISFIED DESIRES. Both of the rich man's requests were denied in Luke 16:19-31. He requested a drop of water to cool his tongue, and for Lazarus to return to tell his five unsaved brothers how to be saved and avoid hell. Both requests were denied. How many times a day do you want something and get it? In hell, no one ever gets what they want.

11. PLACE OF WORMS. “Where their worm dieth not...” Mark 9:44,46,48.

Worm means maggot. If the maggots do not die, and the people own the maggots, then neither do the people die or get annihilated in hell.

12.     TORMENT and PUNISHMENT. “In hell, he lift up his eyes being in torments.” Luke 16:23. 

13.     SHAME and HATRED. “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. People suffering in hell will get a resurrection body. They will be judged, and sent to the lake of fire in shame at their sins. They will experience everlasting contempt, hating their situation forever. 

14.     DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL. “It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.” Mark 6:11. 
    Those who reject Christ most often, will receive greater punishment. Matthew 10:15. 

15.     WEEPING, WAILING, GNASHING OF TEETH. “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12 and 13:49,50. People who today are arrogant, proud Christ-rejecters will be wailing and gnashing their teeth in hell. 

16.     HADES IS IN THE EARTH. Amos 9:2 “though they dig into hell ...”, 

Isaiah 14:9 “hell from beneath”, Ephesians 4:9 “descended into lower parts of earth”, Numbers 16:33 “they went down alive into the pit”,
Psalm 63:9 “those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.”

17. HELL IS ORIGINALLY PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS

“Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41.
How does one get to hell? By neglecting to receive Christ as Saviour. Hebrews 2:3 “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?” How does one avoid hell? By receiving Christ as their Saviour. John 1:12.

Christians should work harder to rescue people from hell, and seek to build their church to better achieve this task, both at home and overseas.
Question 1:  Does “hell” mean “grave” where good and bad must go?

Answer: No, because in Luke 16:19-31 both men went to the grave, but the soul of Lazarus was comforted, and the soul of the rich man was tormented.
Question 2:  How can a loving God send people to hell?

Answer: People send themselves to hell by rejecting Christ. God is loving in sending Christ to die for our sins, but God is just in punishing sin.

III. JESUS' STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS in Luke 16:19-31.

An unbelieving rich man who had abundant material possessions and food in this life, died and went to hell. A believing poor man named Lazarus who had nothing in this life but sickness and poverty, died and was carried by the angels into the comfort of paradise. The suffering rich man in hell made two requests of Abraham in paradise:

i) To send Lazarus to put one drop of water on his tongue to relieve his suffering.

The rich man, who refused to show mercy to Lazarus in need, now begged that Lazarus might show mercy to him in his need (v.24). The rich man declares the greatness of his torment saying: “I am in torment (agony) in this fire (or flame).” v.24.
Lesson:    Material things have only temporary, not eternal value. Luke 16:25.

Abraham responded by calling him “son”. This means that he was a son of Abraham by flesh, not by faith. The rich man trusted his wealth and his physical descent from Abraham for his salvation. Christ showed that neither reason was sufficient for salvation. At death, one's eternal destiny is settled. "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed" (v.26). The rich man could remember his false confidence in wealth, and his wrong devotion to it. This story refutes "soul-sleep", because the rich man and Lazarus were conscious, one enjoying comfort, and the other suffering torment.

Note: Hades had two sections: paradise and hell punishment. Jesus emptied the paradise section when He rose from the dead and took the Old Testament believers’ souls to heaven. Eph. 4:8-10; John 20:17.

“Torment” is used four times and means sorrow and grief.
Abraham gave two reasons why Lazarus could not comfort the rich man:
a)    The rich man had received his reward (Matthew 6:2,5,16), and he had left God out of his life.
b)The great gulf separated them.

ii) To send Lazarus back to warn his five brothers. Luke 16:27-31.

The rich man did not say: “I'm glad my brothers will come here, we'll have a wonderful time together.”
People sometimes say: "I want to go to hell. All my friends will be there." Answer: There is no friendship in hell. Hell is a place of torment and loneliness.

Lesson: People in hell have a concern for the lost, but they cannot do anything about it, BUT WE CAN! What are you doing?
v.29-31: Abraham said that the only thing that could prevent his five brothers from coming to hell was:
Hearing the Word of God, and responding to it by faith in Christ as Saviour.

A man named Lazarus did come back from the dead, and some of the Pharisees wanted to kill him (John 11:43-57; 12:10).
God had spoken many times to the rich man while on earth:
1.     God permitted him to have riches, but not attributing his riches to God’s goodness, he did not repent. 
    “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” Romans 2:4-5. 
2.     Lazarus would have witnessed to him, but his pride rejected Lazarus’ message. 
3.     Old Testament scriptures spoke to him. 
4.     Lazarus dying first, should have reminded him how he would also die. In hell he was still self-centred, praying for his comfort and for the safety of his family. He was not concerned about other lost sinners. C.S. Lewis says: “The safest road to hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts.” 

Lessons from the rich man and Lazarus:

1.     The souls of men do not die with their bodies. 
2.     The souls of men are conscious after death, not asleep until resurrected. 

3.     The righteous at death are taken immediately to a place of happiness and the wicked are sent to a place of misery and torment. 
4.     Wealth does not protect us from death. 
5.     We should not envy the rich, as riches can blind us to the reality of eternity. 
6.     We should seek a better inheritance than this life can give. 
7.     The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great of torment, burning flame, and insatiable thirst, forever. 

8.     Hell is a place of suffering beyond the grave. If not, this story has no meaning. 

9.     There will never be any escape from hell. The gulf is fixed. 
10.     God warns us to prepare for death through: 
His Word.

His Holy Spirit pleading with sinners. His servants.
His goodness leading us to repentance. Pleadings of friends.
Heaven.
If all that would not move sinners, then what would? He threatens hell.
11.     God will give us nothing more to warn us. No dead man will return to tell us what he has seen. If he did, no one would believe him. If you will not hear Christ or the Bible, there is nothing you will hear. You will never be persuaded, and you will never escape the place of torment. 
12.     We see the amazing folly of those wanting to go to hell. They have been deceived. 

IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF HELL FOR US TODAY

1.     Soul winning is important. When people get angry at a preacher preaching on soul winning, they are doing the devil's work. 
2.     We need to become fishers of men. Matthew 4:19. 
3.     If we are busy pulling souls out of the fire, we will not waste our time fighting other Christians. We will seek to maintain unity in our church. 
4.     We see our Church as of great importance in rescuing people from hell. Rescuing people from hell is a major purpose of churches. 
5.     Hell focuses our attention on eternity, taking our attention off petty present things like latest worldly fashions which pale into insignificance in the light of lost people going to an eternal hell. 
6.     Hell makes us train workers to be soul winners. 
7.     It gives us a love for people to win to Christ and to train in the Bible. 
8.     It makes us use our time wisely so that all we do helps in some way to rescue people from hell. 
9.     Hell makes us mission minded so that we try to win lost people to Christ overseas. For example, Roman Catholics in Africa grew from 52 million in 1980 to 92 million in 1993. 

10.     Hell and eternal judgment is the sixth principle of the Doctrine of Christ, so it must be emphasised in our doctrinal teaching. “the foundation of ……eternal judgment.” Hebrews 6:1,2. 
11.     Hell will give us a better testimony as Christians. If we sin, people will go to hell. 
12.     Hell will stop us backsliding because we will realise that our job is important to accomplish in rescuing people from hell. “For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36. What is your answer to this question? 

Conclusion

Are you really saved?

Have you received Jesus Christ as your Saviour, trusting Him alone to save you, not your religion or your good works?

If you are saved, then what are you doing to tell people how Jesus Christ can save them from hell?

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

 

They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.

Prove it.

 

The cross is despised by JWs as a pagan symbol. JWs think that Christ was nailed to a
straight upright pole called a stake, without a crossbeam. This is refuted by Thomas in
John 20:25 ‘Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails..’ Two nails here proves
a crossbar was used; one nail would mean a stake. Paul gloried in the Cross (Galatians
6:14).

 

JWs deny that Jesus died on a cross, claiming that Jesus was nailed to a torture stake (an
upright pole without any cross beam).

 

In their NWT they translate ‘cross’ as ‘torture stake’.

Definition: Cross in Greek is ‘stauros’ (4716) meaning ‘a Roman cross consisting of a
straight piece of wood erected in the earth, often with a transverse beam fastened across it’s
top and another piece nearer the bottom on which the crucified persons feet were nailed.’ (S.
Zodhiates, Complete NT Word Study, p.1308). They illustrate Christ’s death on a single pole
with his arms straight above his head with a single nail pinning his hands to a torture stake.

Question: Did one nail fasten Jesus’ hands above his head, or did two nails hold his hands
to the opposite ends of a cross beam?

Answer:

1) ‘But he (Thomas) said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails,
and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not
believe’. (John 20:25). Both the KJV and NWT have plural ‘nails’, one used for each
hand, totalling 2 nails.

Ask: If Jesus was crucified on an upright stake, why does John 20:25 say that nails
(plural) were used, instead of a single nail?

2) When Jesus spoke of Peter’s future crucifixion, He said that Peter’s hands would be
stretched forth (out) as crucified on a crossbeam and not above his head on a pole. ‘But when you grow old you will stretch out your hands . . .’ (John 21:18,19 NWT).

Ask: From John 21:18,19 how can crucifixion be on an stake if the hands are outstretched?

3) Matthew 27:37 proves a cross crucifixion instead of a stake crucifixion:
‘And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE
JEWS’. If Jesus had died on a stake, it would have said, ‘over or above his hands’.

Ask: If Jesus was crucified on an upright stake, why does Matthew 27:37 say that a sign
was placed above Jesus’ head instead of above Jesus’ hands?

4) Early WT literature stated that Christ was crucified on a cross. Examples include:
Creation, p.265, 336; WT 1 Jan 1891 p.1277; ‘beginning with its issue of 15 Oct. 1931
the WT no longer bore the cross and crown symbol on its cover’ (1975 Yearbook, p.148).

Ask: Does a true prophet of God change position on important topics like this?

5) The WT ignores the facts that:
a) the Greek word ‘stauros’ means a cross as well as a stake, and
b) Romans did execute prisoners on crosses: the horizontal bar was called the
‘patibulum’. Prisoners were made to carry the ‘patibulum’ to their place of execution’
(Seneca, De Vita Beata 19:3; Epistola 101:12; Tacitus, Historicae, Vol 4, p 3)

6) WT claims that the cross was not used until after 312 AD as the sign of crucifixion, but
the cross has been discovered in excavations of Christian tombs much earlier than 312 AD.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

 

Your comment shows a vast ignorance of Scripture, my friend.

I think you have been brainwashed by a cult.

If you are a JW, that is not surprising since you are commanded NOT to think for yourself.

1983 "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)

1983 "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )

So, Jesus did not create everything?

You say God is a liar, then.

 

The Bible says " For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Notice here Jesus is also before ALL things. ALL.

Also, we read "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

I can quote the Greek and Hebrew if you like. But, you won't listen to anything that does not come from the watchtower, right?

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.

 

You are very ignorant, my friend.

Show me some Bible verses as i have the refutations of ALL of the standard JW arguments.

ie: JW's use John 14:28 - ‘The Father is greater than I’ to say Jesus is not God or not equal to God.

If you are a JW, i know you are NOT ALLOWED to read this.


Watchtower teaching: The JW book Let God be True, 1946, p.110 says that Jehovah is
greater than Jesus in his office and person. Jehovah they say is intrinsically greater than
Jesus, and hence Jesus cannot be God Almighty. The JW book Reasoning from the
Scriptures, p.410, says, ‘The fact that Jesus is lesser than Jehovah proves that He cannot be
God in the same sense that Jehovah is’.

The Bible Teaching: In John 14:28 Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ
had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of
incarnation as a man. The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as
touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here
contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the Father’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Key: Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better
(Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a
greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.
i) The distinction is made clear in Hebrews 1:4 where ‘better’ (Gk: kreitton) is used to
teach Jesus’ superiority over the angels in His nature and position.
ii) This difference between ‘greater’ and ‘better’ is seen in this example:
‘The President of a country is greater (Greek: meizon) in position than his people,
but as a human being he is not better (Greek: kreitton) in nature than his people’.
iii) Jesus in becoming a man, not only took on a lower position than the Father, but also
took on a lower position than the angels. ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little
lower than the angels for the suffering of death’. (Hebrews 2:9)

Ask:‘Do you agree that a President is greater in position but not better in nature than his
people?’

Ask: ‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in
nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher
position and not his higher nature than Jesus?

Q: How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)

1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered
His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine
briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some
occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He
did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)

3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a
servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to
weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of
His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father
to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.

10. Mark 13:32 ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels . .
neither the Son, but the Father’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Christ was ignorant of the day of His return,
He cannot be Almighty God because God knows all things.

Bible teaching: Christ before His incarnation was one in person and one in nature (100% God)
Christ after his incarnation was one in person,but two in nature (100% God and 100% man).
He who had always been God, now took on a human nature at his incarnation. The attributes
of Christ’s human nature and divine nature are both correctly attributed to His one person.
Thus Christ at the same time had seemingly contradictory qualities, possessing both human
and divine natures:

He was finite, and yet infinite;

He was weak, and yet omnipotent;

He was increasing in knowledge, and yet omniscient;

He was limited to one place at a time, and yet omnipresent.

In Christ’s incarnation, His one person possesses the attributes of both divine and human
natures. Whatever is true of either His human nature or divine nature is true of His one
person. Christ sometimes operated as a man, and sometimes operated as God, all in the
one person. Christ in His human nature knew hunger (Luke 4:2), weariness (John 4:6) and
sleepiness (Luke 8:23). Christ in His divine nature was omniscient (John 21:17), omnipresent
(John 1:48) and omnipotent (John 11).

Key: At different times, Christ operated under the major influence of one or the other of
His two natures. He operated in the human sphere to achieve His purposes in salvation.

Both of Christ’s natures operated in many Gospel events:
i) Christ’s desire to eat a fig as he approached a fig tree reflected that natural ignorance of
the human mind (Matthew 21:19). (ie: in His humanity He did not know from a distance
that there was no fruit on the tree). But then He revealed His divine omnipotence by
causing the fig tree to wither.
ii) Jesus in His divine omniscience knew that Lazarus had died, so he set off for Bethany
(John 11:11). When Jesus arrived, He asked (in His humanness, without exercising His
omniscience) where Lazarus had been laid (v 34). Jesus, as the God-man is
simultaneously omniscient as God (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit), and yet
ignorant of some things as man (along with mankind).
iii) Jesus in Mark 13:32 was speaking from the vantage point of His humanity, as one
member of the human race who was not omniscient (not knowing the date of His return).
As a man his knowledge was increasing. As God it was infinite. If Jesus was speaking
from the vantage point of His divinity, He would not have said the same thing.
Note: In Christ’s divine nature, He is just as omniscient as the Father. ‘He knew what was in
man’ (John 2:25). ‘Now are we sure that thou knowest all things’ (John 16:30).
‘Lord, thou knowest all things’ (John 21:17).
‘In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge’ (Colossians 2:3)

Ask: ‘Can anyone other than God be omniscient?’ (No).
Ask: ‘Since Christ had both a human and divine nature, and since He used His omniscience
often, can you see that Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He said that He
didn’t know the day or the hour of His return?

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1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

You bring up a lot of ignorant statements trying to excuse your(?) religion.

There not statements, they're fact, proven, time and time again. This is the very reason why people tend to have problems with Christians to begin with, for at times such ones do not recognize the problem they have yet remain ignorant of it, as well as the teachings itself. I am not a Jehovah's Witnesses, I am very strict on the bible, Christian history, theology and a list of other things. When someone makes a claim to something that is not of the bible and is not pertaining to the Christology of what is true, it can and will be called out. You are not the first, nor will you be the last, regardless of who you are. If you knew the Christ, you would know how to treat others, mainly to those who are clearly seeking what is true rather than what is false.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

tudy the history of the watchtower. They have NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.

I study many religions, even Islam. If you know what the bible teaches, you broke one thing regarding those who seek what is true. You have also proven the status of mainstream Christianity.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

it has, if you take into account what God had said from the beginning of the prophet of whom he speaks that he will put his word. Something as such, the bible speaks about, something as such, one has to adhere to.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.
The Bible says that God the father is God.

You say this, but many seem to speak otherwise and confuse the two. I have also addressed such things of which you claim in another post before, you may want to check some of what you address via scripture, for it is known God has a sole dwelling place.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.

Did Jesus really say He was God?

John 8:58, attempting to compare ego eimi with ego eimi ho on is futile, it is rather weak and silly when one can see ego eimi I AM is not ego eimi I AM THAT I AM. The fact that you try to compare the two and see it as selfsame just proves my point further to what I addressed before.

John 1:1 The word is indeed from God, the Word itself is God and the man who speaks God's Word is also called the Word. What you missed is Deuteronomy 18:18 where God made mention of the prophet who is to come, Jesus, for it is very evident. That is why the people have wait for the Messiah who revealed himself in John chapter 4, and even today, they still await for him. You do not read the verses for context and you miss cross references

John 20:28? Typical. I made a post for that today, look it up on Bible Discussion, what is explained there just halted your resolve.

Hebrews 1 is of Jesus' exaltation, especially as to what he addressed in Matthew 28:18, we also know Jesus is Lord because God made him Lord upon resurrection and has exalted him, making him far superior to those in heaven. I have also addressed Isaiah 44:6 and what Jesus himself said in Nazareth when he had the scroll of Isaiah in hand. So the claim you are attempting to make holds no water.

Revelations 1:17 is regarding the risen Jesus in why he is deemed the firstborn out of the dead, as well as the being the first of the fruits, the new creation of which he is the first and last of, the beginning of the new creation as they say, which consist of the new earth and the new heavens.

Again. such things have already been mentioned, addressed in detailed comments by me, clearly to post everything at once here will take up quite  few pages, and I am known for detailed and concise information.

Apparently you fail to see the cross-references to Psalms 18:31, such verses point directly to the Father, for you did state God is the Father.

The funny thing is you are mixing even the law of the Jews to make it seem as though Jesus is God, a very weak attempt, friend, very. Even a Shia can spot such mistakes. The irony is there is 2 passage you mentioned that shatters your claim entirely,a law of which Jesus professed a child, as did his human parents, who also professed this law, but you do not know it.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

Look at what Jesus said a few verses after that, his response in challenge to these Jews, he revealed that he was God's Son. Jesus even spoke of the written law of which God himself had said, in Psalms 82:1, 6, which can also be seen in 1 Corinthians 8:5. For the law speaks of men being gods, for that is indeed the law of which Jesus professed what was written and cannot be broken.

Again, your cross references should tell you that, even bible hub makes mention of such references, yet you remain blind as a bat to such, yet have the audacity to speak of cross-references in another claim of yours. You are sure making yourself the one in the wrong here.

Also, Jesus and his disciples are one, so are true Christians, perhaps a read further in John, and a bit more in Colossians and Ephsians will reveal this simple fact to you, and even a few verses back from verse 30, Jesus speaks of the flock being one with the shepherd. Why ignore these and say on John 10:30? Hypocritical much?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

So by your logic, a blind man is God also? (John 9:9) I AM, to be brief, is a common Greek saying, ego eimi means I exist, in Exodus its ego eimi ho on, meaning I am that I am/choose to become, ion Hebrew, it's eyeh asher eyeh.

There is no Torah context because outside of the Torah I AM or I AM HE/BEEN has been used. You are trying to make a claim that holds no foundation, you fail to explain context also.

 

Since you mentioned Muslims, they know the context very very well, even one of them who is clearly not a fan of Christians, Hamza Myatt, the Lion of Speaker's Corner. Muslims have something big in common with Christians, they recognize the law of which Jesus professed as a child, which can be seen in sura 112, whereas the verse itself in the bible is in the Torah. They also recognize the difference in I AM (ego eimi) and I AM THAT I AM (eog eimi ho on).

Jesus wouldn't be addressing he is the God of Israel, if a Jew who profess the law, Jesus, recognized what the law is, how can you call him a God? This is what Galatians 4:4 says what it says.

God himself is bounded by no law or Law Covenant.

As for blasphemy, I suggest you read and understand what Leviticus 24:16, Matthew 9:2,3 and Matthew 26:64, 65 even says and understand what it means.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Clearly you cannot see for you are blind, and your disdain for a group makes you a broken man

Already addressed

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/57385-john-2028-my-lord-and-my-god/

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

God dwells in True Christians also, for such ones are also one with God as well as with the Christ

Colossians 2:10, Ephesians 1:20, 21 and 1 Peter 3:22

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 

 

Addressed Thomas already 2 Peter 1:1-3 "God of". Peter's testimony further proves he recognize Jesus is God's Son, the clearest of them all is seen in Matthew 16. What kills your claim is what he addressed in 1 Peter 1:3, he identifies the Father as the only God.

You use that other verse in question because it reads out "knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord," the irony is further down the chapter, we know Peter was a witness on that mountain when Jesus transfigured and God spoke, he even, again identifies God as the Father in the same chapter, verse 17.

And it seems you like to Westernize the word proskuneos. David was worshiped by his servants, does not make him God, so was angels when they met Lot. The bible makes it clear total servitude and religious worship is for God and He alone, any worship by means of honor and respect is not religious worship.

You revealed yourself to be an Arian, who is in favor of Jesus religious worship instead of God the Father, who do you think his anger is going to blaze towards for a man who breaks God's Law?

 

God's blood? You do realize God is incorruptible right? Your credibility just put on a cape and flew out the window, friend.

You also have many errors in this response, and the obvious copy and paste nonsense you are spreading.

Therefore, a dog who barks, and does not bite, is not a dog at all.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

Deu. 18:18

Also comparing theon and theos on I see? θεόν (THEON) is clearly different from θεὸς (THEOS)

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

You shot yourself in the foot just now: as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Cracks on the boat, yeah?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Read what was addressed.

Do you not know what was written of which Jesus speaks of? Verses down he says both the scriptures cannot be broken, same goes for what is written, and he reveals to us he is God's Son. Take into account the cross references to because since you brought it up, start using them.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Actually the cross references make a direct point tot he LAW itself, Jesus quoted what was WRITTEN, anything WRITTEN derives from the LAW, this can be found in Deu. 5:9 for religious worship of God the Father, 6:13 of the Shema Law, Deu. 10:20 religious servitude. You claim to know Jesus but fail to realize "what is written and what is foretold" comes from that of the Law itself and the Old Testament?

That is very telling you that you fail to realize that. That just shows you copy and paste but spare no time to read. How do you claim faith if you fail to recognize what "it is written" means?

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Addressed Isaiah 44:6. Also it points to Revelations 22:13 and several verses in Isaiah. Revelations 1:17, Jesus is the first and the last of the new creation that consist of the new heavens and earth, in addition to those who make up the Spiritual House, God even presents the bride, the chosen 144,000, to the Lamb. God is the first and the last regarding Adam and Eve and everything after that prior to Christ's death and the authority and power he gave to the Christ, his Son.

 

Revelations 1:8 is God the Father, we get more information on several verses such as Exodus 6:3, that even makes a direct reference to the Father himself.

El Shaddai, the one and True Elohim, is always the Father, Abba.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

Clearly you do not grasp that this ONE Jesus speaks of, is the Father,perhaps you should read further down that verse. Again, G\The Father here is identified as God, you shot yourself in the foot, another time.

 

As for the rest of your claims, half of them I addressed in the past, and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that I see from such ones like you, such ones in Hyde, such ones in the US, such ones in the EU, such ones in Dubai, such ones in the Middle East, like I say here, I've been around and I know quite a lot.

Everything else here and what you addressed afterwards have already been disproved, but a clear copy and paste coming from you is and will not help your resolve.

A man who does not know what Jesus professed in regards to the law is a lost man, blind even. You pasted a verse that you didn't explain that Jesus holds to high importance regarding the law, which in itself, kills any claim you make about him being God, ironically.

Therefore the errors and twisting of of verses can be seen from a mile away.

That being said, you claim to know the Christ and say others deny him, yet you fail to recognize even the most basic thing every man knows Jesus for, to quote what is written, if you got that wrong out of your bag of errors, you've proven yourself to be not as credible as you claim.

 

Just another typical mainstream who happens to cross paths with me, one who lacks biblical hermeneutics.

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2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Your comment shows a vast ignorance of Scripture, my friend.

 

No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Show me some Bible verses as i have the refutations of ALL of the standard JW arguments.

You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

ie: JW's use John 14:28 - ‘The Father is greater than I’ to say Jesus is not God or not equal to God.

According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only,  bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

If you are a JW, i know you are NOT ALLOWED to read this.

Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.

As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.

God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards. The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9). We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.

John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.

Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works (John 5:36, 14:10,), hence why Jesus has mentioned time and time again to believe in him and the one who has sent him, this was also the affirmation of the early church, who, in turn are also one in Christ, such can easily be seen by the epistles of Apostle Paul. We later found out in John 17:20-23 that Jesus prays (his final one) that Christians will be one with the Father and he himself just as he is one with the Father. With this information in mind, it is very evident of what is being said here. It does not mean they are therefore God. Here we can see clearly that Jesus sees this oneness in terms significantly different than what the this hate preacher would have us believe. For this reason, such blind ones usually disingenuously disregard John 17 when citing John 10:30 for the sake of their accursed doctrine. And it is very clear they do this for a reason, nonsense of which is being seen here in public.

It is also good to see that Jesus explains how he was one with the Father - United Will For Christ Lord, Jesus tells us that he did not come to do his own will but only the will of the Father (John 6:38), and we know 100% God sent his Son, the messenger, the prophet, to speak His Word to the people so they believe he is from God the Father, in addition to his works to further prove himself that he was indeed sent. He also tells us he only said what the Father told him to say, hence why the Father is indeed, greater than the Son (John 8:26,28, 12:49-50; 14:24) He was not able to do anything from himself, by himself, as the Muslims say it, he cannot do anything on his own (cannot do a single thing), but only what he saw the Father doing (John 5:19), and Jesus kept his Father's word (John 8:55). Throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus reminds us over and over in similar ways. He was one with the Father in terms of purpose and will because he always obeyed the Father and kept His word. Jesus did not do his own will. There was only one will between the Father and Son, the Father's will.

My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish His work. (John 4:34, cr. 17:1-5).

Long story short, for I am not going to go full out thread mode on this verse itself, there is a whole long to be said here, but clearly this is not the thread to post such, but with every fact and evidence we have, even the brief ones mention. If we are honest, we can see that he, Jesus, was one with the Father the same way his disciples are expected to be with God, in the unity of the Holy Spirit in terms of purpose and will. In such a manner in which he was praying in Gethsemane for all believers to be one with him and the Father, they in us, and us in them. Clearly, the oneness of Jesus and the Father in these passages refers to oneness of function in the unity of the Holy Spirit of God. He was one with the Father in purpose and will and for this reason he prays for his disciples to be one with him and the Father, just as we are one.

So when we look at what Jesus had said, The Father is Greater than I am, for the head of the Christ is God, we take into seriousness of what he met by that response and take into context what the bible gives us information on, clearly this has not been addressed, let alone fully, John 10:30, I got one in the chamber for that one, but I will not speak more in depth for it is quite the response that demands a thread.

Hebrews 1:4 informs us clearly on Jesus' exaltation, in fact, the majority of Hebrews 1 and what the author of Hebrews is trying to convey, such has always fulfilled prophecy hence Jesus being at the right hand side of his Father. He does not prove that he is God for the one who has exalted him in Heaven is the one who has risen him, the one who has made him Lord (Acts 2:36). This is why Paul makes it known to the early church to believe and thank in God the Father, for our Lord Jesus Christ, for God resurrected him, and made him superior to that of his Spirit Being counterparts, for this one has God given authority and power and will soon carry out judgement in his Father's name, for God is Justice, and the Lamb will enact Justice against the wicked by means of his Father. Exlation was not really due to nature, per-say, it was due to what role Jesus had in God's will and purpose, the very fact that Jesus tasted death for us, as stated in the other verse you posted, Hebrews 2:9, what was not mentioned by you is that Jesus' death opens the way for the New Covenant. Moreover, God's grace by means of his Son's sacrifice is evident, providing amnesty for us, and a chance to repent and seek salvation, of which is deemed a hard fight to maintain as read in Jude 3. We are not immune to sin or death, so maintaining faith is key, for even in death, the opportunity for a resurrection is very possible, but should you stray away from God's Laws or what the bible teaches, death is what you'll be continuing to embrace. That being said, Jesus was clearly lower for he was the only begotten, the only one to be birthed as a man, the only one to become flesh in this regard, born of a woman, into the Law of which he profess, learning about his God and Father, eventually becoming the Christ and doing the works of his Father and spreading the gospel of good news, with followers who listen, he died for us, he had risen, made known of the promise of what his Father will give, which took place at Pentecost, he had ascended and was exalted by his Father, being far soupier than this angelic counterparts in Heaven, battled with Satan and is now ready to enact Justice in the name of his Father and bring about the Spiritual House in regard of the New Creation, and when he gives back the Kingdom to his Father, God himself will put an end once and for all to death itself and death/hades, will be no more, for that is the last enemy and onward, God's purpose as is flourishes.

Athanasian Creed, that just proves me point even more, another thing is, what you do not realize is what seems to be lacking, the many important features which you, a Trinitarian claim to believe.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in
nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher
position and not his higher nature than Jesus?

God the Father's position is not temporary. God has and will always be the one above all, he is the Eternal King, the El Shaddai, Almighty. You think the Father's position of being higher is temporary? God clearly has not filled out a job application for positions, friend. No one is equal to him nor is anyone above him, he is the One True God of Israel, he is my Father, your Father, he is My God, your God.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)

Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God is not to be, according to Paul, considered equal to God. This is coming from a man who understood one of the greatest and foremost laws of which Jesus professed as an adult as well as being a child, as did the Jews in those days, to us Christians today, as well as today's Jews and Muslims who profess this from birth until their death. A common thing we all share and a worldwide acknowledgment of such. But clearly, you do not know of which I speak, thus brings who is really ignorant according to your claim. Moreover, the scriptures show us that bowing down before God the Father's Anointed One is to bow down before God the Father Himself because His Anointed One executes the authority of His throne. Nowhere does it states to religiously worship and show total servitude to God's chosen one, if we are honest, we would know the obvious answer to that.

3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered
His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine
briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some
occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He
did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)

1. Being God and a Man at the same time is like saying you can be moral and immortal at the same time. What you missed about Jesus' transfiguration is that there were witnesses, Peter was one of them, they also bore witness to God speaking to Jesus and Peter, James and John were present. In fact, Peter made acknowledgment of this in his testimony, of what he had witnessed that day. So one cannot say to mankind if only 3 people were present that day, and we later see of what Jesus had said to them afterwards (Matthew 17:9).

2. Jesus was not all knowing. We know he is unaware of the day or hour of Judgement itself, is is very evident for we see this in Mark 13:32 (also mentioned in Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7) and we know only God the Father knows as the other verses have stated and this one (1 Thess. 5:1,2). In addition, Jesus cursed a Fig Tree, for Jesus said the following in Mark 11:14 and the response from Peter (Simon Peter) in Mark 11:21 was also mentioned.

If we are honest, we know that that Jesus is not all knowing unlike God the Father. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and was present on earth, as the Son of Man, to teach the teachings of his Father, for what he says is not based on his originality, again John 14:10, but of the Father’s. Jesus also made this known several times, as well as in John 12:49. We also see in John 5:36 Jesus stated he was assigned such a task by God the Father.

You are also taking the verse out of context, John 2:24, 16:30 (Jesus was not the one speaking the things known in question is what he taught that came from the Father), 20:17 (again, of what Jesus taught that came from the Father, take a good look at John 10:14,15 also)

John 3:13 does not prove omnipresence. Mainly when you take into context Acts 2:34, John 6:38, 8:23, 42. Jesus was in Heaven, then he was on earth as a man, had died, had risen, returned to Heaven, taken by a cloud and two angels. And then theirs Mattias who joined the crew, Judas' replacement.

According to the Old Testament, God is not like a man or a son of man and we know God is incorruptible. So you are calming you have 2 Gods now? Binitarian I suppose. Anyways, you can clear see in Matthew 28:18 that authority and power was given to Jesus, who gave it to him, God the Father, Ephesians 1:20, 21 an Philippians 2:9 is cr'd with this verse.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a
servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to
weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

Yet somehow death is a possibility, as well as a sense of trouble? Finding himself to be a human being, Jesus had no thought of exalting himself or regarding a plunder to be equal to God. Rather, he humbled himself becoming obedient to death. Recognizing his humanity, Jesus humbled himself before his God serving his God doing God's will even in the face of death. Jesus did not come to be served by to serve and give his life. He learned obedience from what he suffered. As he himself taught, those who humble themselves will be exalted and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. Jesus did not exalt himself over others. Let us be reminded what Apostle Paul is teaching the Philippians. Not to think of themselves as superior over others but to humbly serve them in love. Jesus is their example and as children of God, even as he was a child of God, they are to walk in his footsteps. In the next chapter, Paul himself offers himself as an example, for he emptied himself counting all things as loss to know Christ and to be conformed to his death.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of
His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father
to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.

Even when he has risen and is made Lord, Jesus is nowhere equal to or above his Father, who is God, no mater how you try to knock it. As a baby, as a child, a teen, into adulthood, to his death, in Hades, being risen, returning to heaven,being exalted, nowhere, was he equal to his Father. Seriously, one has to be really honest with themselves and read for context in the passages than assume. The factor here too, you claim 2 Gods, when there is one.

The truth of the matter is simple, Jesus' comment about his Father is true, as is the very evidence of the bible speaks for itself (John 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3, 15:28, Php. 2:5, 6). In addition to that, we have words from John, Paul and Peter, such ones affirmed what the law is all about and clearly, they know that God is the only Father, and that Jesus is the Son, and out of the two, John and peter, they were witnesses of God speaking to Jesus, and had made acknowledgment of such.

That being said, Trinitarians as well as Binitarians do not like context, even when said context speaks against their beliefs and doctrine.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

10. Mark 13:32 ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels . .
neither the Son, but the Father’.

Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Christ was ignorant of the day of His return,
He cannot be Almighty God because God knows all things.

Jesus is indeed ignorant of the day and the hour. The bible makes it clear several times and even acknowledges that God the Father, regarding that day, is said to be on time and like a thief in the night. The only thing you have to worry about is the sword that Jesus will be bringing to a firefight (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53).

To say this is a JW teaching is absurd and pure tom foolery, you do not take what the bible says seriously, don't you?

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Bible teaching: Christ before His incarnation was one in person and one in nature (100% God)
Christ after his incarnation was one in person,but two in nature (100% God and 100% man).
He who had always been God, now took on a human nature at his incarnation. The attributes
of Christ’s human nature and divine nature are both correctly attributed to His one person.
Thus Christ at the same time had seemingly contradictory qualities, possessing both human
and divine natures:

You have 2 Gods now, whres your 3rd one? Other than that, God has an obvious nature that does not have anything to do with man, that is, incorruptible. Like I said before, the bible says it also, God is not a man nor a son of man, he does not tell lies, nor can he die or taste death, he is not like men like us and he is the life giver, the God of the living and the also the dead.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

He was finite, and yet infinite;

He was weak, and yet omnipotent;

He was increasing in knowledge, and yet omniscient;

He was limited to one place at a time, and yet omnipresent.

He's not everywhere at once, nor is he all knowing, etc. Learn what the bible speaks about Jesus and about God. One has a dwelling place, one roam the earth, risen back to Heaven and remains at the right hand of God.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

in Christ’s incarnation, His one person possesses the attributes of both divine and human
natures. Whatever is true of either His human nature or divine nature is true of His one
person. Christ sometimes operated as a man, and sometimes operated as God, all in the
one person. Christ in His human nature knew hunger (Luke 4:2), weariness (John 4:6) and
sleepiness (Luke 8:23). Christ in His divine nature was omniscient (John 21:17), omnipresent
(John 1:48) and omnipotent (John 11).

The bible does not say Jesus operates as both a man and a God. Do not add to the Scriptures please, for that is a silly explanation.

Luke 4:2 we all know the temptation, Jesus, quoted what was written also for verse 3 points to Deu. 8:3, even Satan recognize that Jesus is God's Son and clearly what happen after this confrontation, angels from God came to minister to Jesus. God's Spirit is upon Jesus, do you not believe his words in the same chapter in verse 18? Not to mention, Jesus had the Scroll of Isaiah in hand while he was in a Synagogue in Nazareth, and again, he quotes what is written, that should tell you something. As for Luke 8:23, the Father is clearly with Jesus, which in turn, enables him to do such miracles such as this. If we are using logic here, those of God and those who are enemies of God can also perform miracles too, it does not make either of them God, example in Exodus 17, Moses kept his hands up so the Israelites would prevail in battle, should he lower it, the tables turn quickly, with Aaron's help, Moses kept his hands up for such a miracle to continue on until the Israelites won, that does not make Moses God, as did the others who also perform miracles too. John 4:6, Jesus was legitimately tired from his travels. Clearly the man needed to drink due to his weariness. John 21:17 was already addressed, I believe several times. John 1:48 Not omnipresent, granted with what was said the brief conversation between Philip Nathaniel (Bartholomew) regarding The Messiah and the Laws of Moses that speak of the prophet. It was obvious he would recognize of the one God said in the days of old of who is to come (Deu. 18:18), in addition to what Go said to Abraham and what God had already set in motion after Adam and Eve sinned. The prophet of who the people await as the Messiah, that is, Jesus. The irony is you added a verse from John 4, everyone knows of whom the Samaritans were waiting for, they kept the Torah, and even today they, still residing in Mount Gerizim, await Jesus to return. John 11 perhaps because, again, God is with him? You seem to forget that the Father is literally, always with Jesus, granted what he said in verse 4, clearly Go asks and God gives, as seen in verse 22, verse 27 Jesus is the Christ is the Son of God and what went down in verse 41-42, the one who sent him, the one who abides in him, enabled him to perform such a miracle, as later on, his God' given authority will enable him to perform resurrection at a larger scale.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Key: At different times, Christ operated under the major influence of one or the other of
His two natures. He operated in the human sphere to achieve His purposes in salvation.

Yet clearly God was with him and that is why he is able to do what he does, he does not do such on his own, therefore, the Father being with him, Jesus was able to do such things, as with anyone God is with as seen in the bible.

Jesus does not have his own purpose, he he cannot do a single thing without the Father, the Father enables his purpose and will through his Son.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

wall of text

Yet you still attempt to add things to scripture and continue to equal Jesus to the Father. Anything more you wish to share with the class? The bible discussion room is already booked on the holy spirit.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘Can anyone other than God be omniscient?’ (No).

Only the Father, not Jesus. But than again, you believe in many Gods, so perhaps for you, the answer is multiple choice.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ask: ‘Since Christ had both a human and divine nature, and since He used His omniscience
often, can you see that Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He said that He
didn’t know the day or the hour of His return?

Jesus was very unique, there is no question about that, but he is not God, for a variety of reasons, i.e. law of the Jews. Judging on what the chapter is about, Jesus was not shifting back and forth in what he had to say. Jesus was speaking about the end time and tribulations that is to come and informing us what it is all about. There is no shifting in nature as you claim, if that was the case, it would be evident in most of the 37 verses, yet somehow only 1 verse you make this claim and not o the others. Another factor is you show a total disregard of what others have said about Go'd Judgement Day against the wicked. He was not talking about his return, just simply the day of which God had already set for what is to come, such a day is set by the Father himself, according to Paul.

 

That being said, I can get to your other responses that have many errors, at this point it is sheer bible defense, not only you are bad mouthing another faith, you are turning the scriptures into a Frankenstein monster that I believe you do not even makes sense. 100% man 100% God? Since you like to mention Muslims also, Speaker's Corner will have a field day with the claims you make and since 2015, such claims is causing the decline in what you believe, surely it would have been your faith opponents, but that didn't work out too well now did it?

 

At the end of the day, you are not putting scripture into context, you claim the other faith denies Jesus yet you do not take Jesus'words seriously. That is hypocrisy, for you are breaking scripture, as seen what is written and said by Jesus himself, and you are adding to the Word, of which God made a Law in this regard in Moses day.

Surely, you can do better than copy and paste, it was not the typos I was looking at, it was the broken context and jumbling of words and passages. You claim to know Jesus yet do not know what it is written means, come on now, the most novice of any bible reader, even a novice JW can spot that silliness easily. You fail to open your eyes to what the bible says, therefore, the ignorance claim of which you speak, is sitting on your table, not on my table for clearly there is a distinction, one who knows the bible, the other who quotes from a source with pre-determine responses, passages and other fortune cookie nonsense.

Therefore, it is safe to say who is really saved, those who know what the bible teaches, and those who are not saved, clearly blind, speak of an accursed doctrine.You don't like the word Trinity, but you should it, the Creed comment was obvious.

With that said, I would make a response to your other claims, I see error and confusion, but you are not worth the time after you fail to see Jesus quoting a law, and the fact you put 2 specific verses in your responses that automatically disqualifies everything you have said in your copy/paste comments. Talk about taking an arrow to the knee.

Like I said before, a dog with a bark but no bite is not a dog at all.

 

Clearly,  maintaining ignorance to falsehood, does not matter if you are a JW, former or not, falsehood will not get you saved.mainly if you accept it and ignore the truth. period.

 

 

FYI, as a small remark to your HELL comment, I guess by your logic David may be there also (Psalms 139:8).

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On 6/19/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jesus.defender said:

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

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@Anna Exactly, 100% right. The funny thing is, they never want to read beyond verse 30, because they know it would stop their claims dead in it's tracks. The same goes for John 20:28, only this time, they don't want to read before - knowing that Thomas was not present when the risen Jesus appeared, and only then when the disciples came and then Jesus was revealed to Thomas, to his shock, he said what he said, and the passage itself is regarding seeing is believing, especially when Thomas is being talked about for he doubted that Jesus had risen. Hence why one can call back to what Jesus had said which connects with this passage, John 14:10-11; 12:44-45.

It is pure annoyance when people deny the truth itself that comes from the scriptures, at the same time, they HATE when someone is right for saying what is 100% correct to what the bible says, they remain in denial, they accept "as is" claims from mainstream Christian, example John 10:30, such ones say this proves Jesus is God, but when told the truth, they don't want to hear it. This also goes for those who are ignorant or misinformed about one's faith, why they believe this and that when it come from scripture, for such ones have more sense than those who believe in what the man-made version of Christianity that is professed by a lot of people around the world who do not accept what is true.

Not to mention the type of Christians (Molech believers) who take delight in the death of others, or the fact that since they believe in fire torment and that God is omnipresent, being there 24/7 to watch endless torment of people, these types of Christians do not know ANYTHING about what Gehenna is nor do they know what Hades is. Such ones fail to see that God himself, emotionally, reacted to fire torment in the Old Testament. For God the Father said it best himself:  I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination. (this is but one of many verses regarding such). Mainstream ones do not know this, yet they practice this doctrine that is false of fire torment.

The very reason why salvation is only vital by those who profess 100% what the bible says, those who follow accordingly to how the church is structured and operate, as did the 1st century Christians, or organization, as they say, the very word that is not fun to use by, in this case, JW opponents, they fail to see a faith itself is pretty much Religious organization, no matter how hard they try to knock it.

SHE the church, the people IS the church, and HER teaches will remain intact, anyone who says otherwise of HER and HER people, is clearly not taking anything seriously, be it the bible or the church or what God says.

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On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.

 

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.

According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only,  bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my friend. :)

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards.

 

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9).

Yes, God DID create all things. I have no problems there. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." 

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

 

We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

 

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.
 

 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 PM, Space Merchant said:

Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works

That is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

 

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

 

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

 

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On 6/21/2018 at 9:57 AM, Anna said:

Your posts are pretty much off topic and it seems you are going on a rant, but I couldn't help noticing the above statement.

Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

"“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.+ 23  I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one,* so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me".

Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him.

 

“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” 

 

 

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The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God

1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.

2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.

3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855

‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.

John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).

All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).

All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)

4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.

5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)

6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”

7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.

8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?

9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5

10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.

11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.

12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.

13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?

14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.

15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.

16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.

17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God

18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.

19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.

20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).

Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?

21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).

22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”

23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.

24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.

25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.

26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God

27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.

28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24

29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35

30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.

The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.

31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.

Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.

Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty

32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.

Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.

Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.

Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.

Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ

33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”

35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.

36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.

37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1

38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”

39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”

Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.

40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”

In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.

41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.

42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.

43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.

44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).

45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.

“For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).

Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.

46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.

One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”

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THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD SEEN IN NATURE.

Question: How is the Trinity of the Godhead seen in nature as in Romans 1:20 ‘for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

Answer: a) We see God’s eternal power in earthquakes, volcanoes, wind, millions of stars, galaxies, waves, floods, lightning, sun, moon, nuclear bombs, etc.

b) We see the Trinity of the Godhead with so many things coming in ‘threes’, reminding us of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all three members of the creator Godhead. Examples include:

1) The Physical Universe: Space, mass, time.

2) Space: 3 dimensions of space are: length, breadth, height.

3) Mass: 3 phases of matter are: solid, liquid, gas.

4) Time: 3 tenses of time are: past, present, future.

5) Light: 3 directions of light wave oscillation are: horizontal, 
vertical, back and forward.

6) Colours: 3 primary colours of light are: red, blue, yellow.

7) Kingdoms: 3 Kingdoms are: Animal, vegetable, mineral.

? Animal: 3 main kinds of Animal are: fish, bird, land animals.

9) Minerals: 3 main kinds of Minerals are: igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic.

10) Heavens: 3 heavens are: atmosphere, space, God’s throne.

11) Man: 3 components of Man are: body, soul (personality), spirit. (I Thess. 5:23).

12) Divine institutions: 3 Divine institutions are: marriage, human government, church.

13) Musical notes: 3 notes make up a musical chord.

14) Sub-atomic particles: 3 main sub-atomic particles are: proton, electron, neutron,.

15) Mankind: 3 divisions of the human race: Jew, Gentile, Church of God. (I Cor.10:32).
 

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Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things.  It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc.  "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Hupostasis or ὑπόστασις which Walter says refers to the nature and substance the Father and Son share

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there  that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us). 


John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος  ",  "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am  you will die in the sins of you

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There is no such scripture that states what you claim.  Not a single scripture states, 'Jesus is God'  nor does the trinity even mention Jesus in its doctrine.  Not only did the KJV remove God's Name but also removed 'theos' from Rev 1:8 and John 1:18....

When trinitarians can't show a single scripture that (God is made up of three separate persons) they throw their own doctrine under the bus, and then switch to modalism that to falsely proclaim that Jesus is God. 

Cough cough... Both doctrines exclude that Jesus is "the Christ the son of the living God' (Matthew 16:16)  Therefore, both man-made doctrines fight against the Christ.  "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7)

Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)

About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

“I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.” (Rev 22:16)

Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)

Even Paul identifies this angel as the ‘I am’. “For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” 

    Hello guest!

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John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Who was Moses speaking to?? (

    Hello guest!
)  

“I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared.  Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him.” (Exodus 23:20-21) This angel not only Leads but can pardon sins, if not, he can destroy the sinners.

(1 Corinthians 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

(1 Corinthians 10:9-10) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.”

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” (Luke 4:34)

Daniel 12:2 is about this scripture to those waking up in the dust. “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)  Commanding Call, Archangel’s Voice, and God’s Trumpet, are all associated with the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, the Son of Man, the Chief Agent of Life whom is in Charge of the Resurrection.

If I were to show you all the scriptures about Jesus being an angel, I guess I could just give you Any Old Bible and tell you to just read it…..

 

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5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

Not really, for I made references to that sole verse for a reason, you fail to see what I was alluding to, thus the silliness in the copy/paste comments that you made in respond. You are not the first Trinitarian I have seen, nor are you the last, but all Jesus Thumpers who consider him as a God are all identical, and very flat in explanation and not on biblical hermeneutics.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

Paul never tells us what Jesus regarded and or considered; he tells us what Jesus did not consider or regard equal to God the Father. Even Jesus himself did not regard or consider to such - the idea of being equal to God, hence the comment, Jesus is not equal with God, at all, whatsoever. He did not regard a plunder to be equal to God, period. This was something Jesus did not do and Paul tells us further down the line that to tell us what Jesus did do in contrast to what he did not do.

You are, for this is common coming from a person who has posted comments back to back within seconds of each other, you only sing your song to those who want to listen, not to those who do not.

I am not American either, nor were you referred to as one, but one thing is certain, you can read, comprehend, and understand as well as respond in English. Triggered means (of a response) caused by particular action, process, or situation. Pertaining to what I have said in a single comment, you went on your merry little way to seek what man man understanding you can find and post in not once, not twice, but several times to a minor comment of which you yourself do not know what I was aiming for, which is ironic because it would seem you still fail in grasping what I stated about the verse I posted.

Your posts however, have many errors in it, and I am not the only one who sees that.

 

Therefore, using Philippians 2:5-8 will not help your case, specifically verse 6. It has been talked about a lot and has been correctly confuted in both context and a great deal of biblical hermeneutics.

That we must recognize to ourselves who Christ Jesus is, The Son of God, The Lamb who has been sent with God abiding in Him, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance and or the likeness as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death when he, Christ Jesus, was crucified.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my frie?nd. :)

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

When it comes to scripture, I am very strict, to the point I give lecture and or critical criticism, I blame the CSE community who consist of those who are up there in their Theology since I have grown in such a community, who is often critical. I am neutral with you, and clearly it is known as to how my view of the Trinity is, I see it as unbibical and for many many years, I come across the same people like you, day in and day out, with the same response and such only prompts me to correct, nothing more. I can be a bit brash when I stumble unto honesty and clearly ones who have been misguided, and I do not take kindly to those who call everyone who strives to do what the bible says only to be marked as denying Christ, the same end-all nonsense that only comes from the Trinitarian camp, and with the experience I have, I can point out many wrong to people to claim this as well as Molech worshiping Christians and any from the mainstream. You have proven yourself to be the obvious candidate.

Oh, I am a Christian, and clearly I, as a Christian, will do what is necessary to defend scripture, as I have stated time and time again, to many, even to your Trinitarian scholars, Jay Smith and the like - you are no different.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

You haven't proven anything. I know what Emmanual (Immanual) means, any man who utters sheer hermeneutics, knows the bible page to page, book to book and knows passages even by the slightest of thought. Such ones like myself take the bible with the utmost seriousness as well as Christian History of all men.

I am not a one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, however, I have studied their Christology and understand where they are coming from, as with any Restorationist Christian, for Restorationist tend to be closer to what is truth than most. They do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe Hell is the lake of fire (for clearly Hell cannot be cast into Hell), they do not believe Jesus is God, and a list of other things. The defense comes when people make lies about Restorationist, they say they have guns under their churches, they say they have altered the bible when clearly they follow the oldest source, and it has been proven by even the most critical opponents to Trinitarianism, and the like.

You can believe in the tooth fairy, or Caesar the Ghost, I am what I am, and I know what I know. When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

One should be able to speak truth out of all the misconceptions that are out there, an example would be the comment you made: They deny Jesus. That is false, it is evident this claim of yours is very untrue and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that comes from the same people straight out of the mainstream, what is also untrue is the teaching that everyone who denies the Trinity will be tossed into the fire and be tormented with God overlooking them for an entirety, this is utterly false and clearly you do not know God's reaction in the old Testament to such a thing, the very reason I alluded to what I would have been said, an clearly, you missed it.

You can't stick to the Word of God because you are adding mainstream ideals to the scripture. This is the very reason why people like you are having a declining mainstream church, when people find out about the false explanation of verses and passages, they just leave Christianity altogether, and the irony is even Muslims are pointing this out, and I have made mention to this proof before, that being said, the mainstream adaptation of Christianity does not follow the church, nor does it follow the scripture, and clearly, you remain ignorant of this, as do your mainstream brothers and sisters who sees the truth in the bible, but turns away from it. You can quote the Watchtower until the cows come home, but actual facts, and biblical hermeneutics will put you in place, no matter how you knock. Us at CSE know everything, for the community itself is strictly bible based and we are harden in knowledge because of what the bible says, as well as our knowledge in the history of the church and Christianity itself, like a fire, what the bible says will and always will prevail.

The fact you do not know the oldest and most reliable source, further proves my claim - You do not know your bible as well as you think, and the fact you stated that, well, it proves what we say about the mainstream Trinitarians of Christendom.

A shame, but bless be those who wake up from the misguidance of the mainstream and seek and apply scriptural proof, woe to those who know of such and remains ignorant.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".?

There is no problem, for what I say is truth and always will be truth, I do not make the Father or his Son appear as a Triune being or a being who works out of modes - no, such a thing are utter heresies and does not follow our Apostolic Age brothers and sisters of old.

The Father is the One and Only True God, and such is affirmed and made in testimony from individuals like Peter, Paul, John and many more, even our Lord, Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus, as a child, a born Jew under the Law, had to recite, learn, pray, observe the Old Testament as well as learn of who the God of Israel is and what he has done for the people, hence the very law of which is considers the foremost commandment he profess, well into his adulthood.

What you fail to see in Isaiah 9:6 is the very context of what this verse says. The facts regarding this verse/passage show us that such names are given to people as well as places, for these names do not mean that these people are places are therefore God. Moreover, it show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes, mainly if the verse is taken into context just as what such was done in a similar fashion regarding Hezekiah, a son of David (forefather), who will sit on the throne of David. Anyone who understands the context of this verse will recognize what this verse is referring to, describing even, what God the Father Yahweh/Jehovah will accomplish through this child-son. The context is there, yet you do not see it because you are an obvious mainstream who allows himself to be blind.

 

Don't see why you are quoting Psalms 10:16, that verse is passage referring to God the Father. This merely tells us that God is King forever and ever and it is a direct reference to Exodus 15:18, Psalms 145:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:34 and 1 Timothy 1:17 - exactly. If Strong's is solely applied for the Hebrew Old Testament verses, we see of whom it points to - ??????? which refers to Yahweh/Jehovah aka YHWH/YHVH (

    Hello guest!
), God Almighty (El Shaddai). - 
    Hello guest!

As for Daniel 6:26, which also points to Daniel 3:29, is also referring to God the Father, who is indeed the God of Daniel, the very same and only God to Sha'drach, Me'shach and A'bed'ne'go.

As for the last statement you made, clearly you have no idea what biblical hermeneutics even means. Such ones who speak of hermeneutics are clearly well disciplined in scripture and history pertaining to the church and Christianity of old, therefore, I know quite a lot, I am able to speak Greek as well as Hebrew, of which I thank my professor for, who dwells in Israel's history, as well as the Old Testament.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

They were mentioned to make a point, something of which you did not see regarding to what I made the response to. We are on track, the question is, why do you not see it yet?

This was brought up because I stated the following to your claim: God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus

The very reason why I continued on to say: this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

Both of them knew what Jesus' role was, Zechariah, being the one to speak to Gabriel before, referred to Jesus as the Horn of Salvation, the one to bring deliverance to the people, the one who has been talked about, etc.

The fact that you didn't see or understood, further proves my point. Mainstream Christians like you do not read for context nor do you bear absolute understand of a passage correctly, the ironic part, it does not take a Jehovah's Witness to tell you when the very Bible says it clearly.

We know of John's role due to what Gabriel, as well as what Zechariah had said we we see it, we know it. Jesus' Baptism, John's Testimony.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

But you are either confusing the two or calling one the other.

Jesus was sinless and pure compared to us sin filled individuals. Jesus was flesh though, he was tired, hungry, angry, troubled and yet fearful, and not all knowing. Unlike us God was with him 100% of the way, hence Jesus as his chosen Messiah.

God the Father is certainly not like us men, however your copy/paste response says otherwise, perhaps next time re-read hat you post.

For the last bit, the Head of the Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3, 15:27, 28) - that alone should be very clear to you. If Christ is clearly greater than us men, which is evident, God himself is clearly above Christ, for no one is equal to or above God. God is the life-giver, he raised the Christ out of the death, for we know God the Father is the God of the Living and the Dead, is is that great, as if the Old Testament had not made it any clearer, especially regarding the whole temple fire situation that was immense to the point even the people on the outside of the temple made reaction to it, or the fact that the Moses being the one to speak to God for the Israelites were in fear of God for not only he was great, they feared him.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.

As always, and no, what you made response to regarding John 10:30 is incorrect. If we had to accept your mainstream stance on this verse, we should be calling the Disciples God also, clearly this will not still well with any man. In John 14:28, it means what it means, the very fact that it makes a direct references to verses that further proves Jesus' position when compared to the Father only solidifies truth rather than a Trinitarian claim. Moreover, at John 10:29 (cf. 1 Peter 1:4, 5), he tells us the Father is greater than all, including as to what God has given Jesus. Statements like this are generally ignored by Trinitarians making this claim.

As the representative sent by God, Christ Jesus acted on God's behalf. If you so dearly what to equal Jesus to God, the only thing you can equal - acting on God's behalf as his representative (Shaliah) on earth, coming in flesh with the very Words God put in his Prophet's mouth. As for all this power and what God can do, clearly Jesus does not have such going for him, even when he has risen and made superior to the angels, for the Father is and will always be greater than him for he is the Head of the Christ, and clearly Jesus, in this respects is not equal to the Father, whatsoever, the servant is always equal in what he can do and what his master can do, but in power, position and status, the servant will never surpass or be greater, perhaps better than his master.

Jesus was sent, came in the name of God the Father, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Clearly divine sonship, for this is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God, as seen in Romans 8:14 (see John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory, and did not come in his own name, but, he came in the name of the only God his, Father - God Almighty (El Shaddai).

As someone who knows Greek quite well, I can see that you tend to mix in your own mainstream theology into the passage, you do realize such a word has other occurrences in scripture, right? Using it for this sole verse and being ignorant of the others, adding your own man made understanding to such, is very revealing, perhaps, more revealing that a red dot on a large white sheet of paper - it shows. 

Also its meizón  (??????) it's number is  3187, in addition, it is comparative to/of 3173, mégas.

If God is above all and is clearly a God of all his sons and all those who dwell the earth, as well as being above the one he has risen and made clear, for God is indeed the God of both the living and the dead, clearly, God is very, very powerful and very great, for he is indeed, God Almighty (El Shaddai).

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

hat is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

But it is what the cross-references says and the context of how Jesus is one with the Father. When I say something and affirm it, there is a reason behind it, pertaining to everything I say and make reference to. I do not apply man's understanding, as you have, I merely apply sheer biblical hermeneutics and nothing more.

I bring up points to correct you, I do not expect, nor do I care about response from you, but should you do make some response that is of ill-intent, dishonest, false, ignorant, silly, foolish, slander, false accusations, expect to be corrected, and I always deliver with every truth I speak, for I speak of what the bible teaches and what the passages convey, nothing more and I speak against lies made in regards to history of Christianity and scripture, nothing more - for I defend solely what the bible says and what it teaches with strict seriousness.

My comments are always like this, I am known for this, that being said, maybe perhaps when you make comments, do not make an obvious copy/paste from a single minded source, and put everything into one response instead, none of us here for s 3 paged response to 1 verse and or passage. Fit everything into one page and maybe you will not get a point for point lecture on errors of which you have professed.

I have read what you said, I never shy away from reading anything from anyone, for any man who professes  and studies biblical hermeneutics is open to hear from all men, and even the bible informs us to be very good hearers and not be forgetful, something I apply for a very long time.

 

As for @Anna response, it is indeed correct. You call her wrong for it is not her answer, you call her wrong because she is most likely one of Jehovah's Witnesses and or adhere to the Non-Trinitarian faith of which they profess. The irony, even non JWs or non Christians understood this passage, very clearly, Muslims even, ones like Hamza Myatt.

Your response: No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

As I have stated before, Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father. What you also missed is the very Laws those Jews follow, a Law of which God himself had said to which Jesus made mention of in verse 34, 35. The law of which he speaks of (clearly cannot be broken) is found in Psalms 82:6

We see here that God has said the following: I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It also makes a direct reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5

  • For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

We see further on that Jesus made it clear that he was sanctified as well as being sent by the Father into this world and claimed to be, even said, that he is God's Son.

Now, when we are honest with the CONTEXT and the attitude and state of these Jews, these Pharisees, we see exactly as to why this situation is and how it came to such.

In the Gospel accounts, Christ Jesus did not spare any words concerning the Pharisees. In the Gospel of John just two chapters earlier, Jesus had explained how these Jews could not understand him because they were children of the devil, and the words he spoke could not be heard by them because they were so blindly caught up in their own desires to do the will of their father Satan. We know this because of John 8:38-47.

Now if we are being honest, we are to appreciate what Jesus said here, for it is clear. Jesus had said these Jews were not able to comprehend what he was saying to them because they were children of the devil and wanted to do the desires of Satan the Devil. They couldn't understand Jesus because they were not of God at all (Pharisees). Therefore, it is a bit absurd to suggest and or assume that these Jews are necessarily stating an accurate understanding of Jesus at verse 33 in John 10. They did the works of their father the devil and the devil is the father of lies and clearly such ones were indeed lairs. Not only do we find the Jews clearly dumbfounded throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus said these men were liars and murderers who wanted to kill him. Which calls into questions such ones like yourself, as to why do Trinitarian mainstreamers like you regard the words of these evil men as if they were spoken by God Himself? Jesus said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were evil men who were not of God. This fact alone presents a serious problem for the Trinitarian interpretation of verse 33 since the interpretation in question, the very one being professed, relies entirely on the premise that they did indeed understand Jesus and were accurately portraying who he was. Hence, the very reason why we have people like you claiming these Jews completely understood Jesus when Jesus declared they did not and could not understand what he was saying to them because they were of the devil and blinded by their desires to do their father's will.

So Anna's response here: Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

Is right because Jesus was in direct line of sight of the Pharisees, and we already know how they view Jesus, and clearly, they are not like fan girls seeking an autograph from someone they admire.

Anna's Response: On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

Which is also indeed true, but you still ignore biblical fact.

Anna's response: Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

For this is indeed what Jesus made it clear to us as what being one even means, it does not make him God, nor his disciples and or those of the early Church.

And lastly,: In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

Which is exactly and 100% true. Yet you still act out how you are in your triggered and rant filled antics,and yet you call yourself, Jesus Defender. All I see is another typical Trinitarian out of the mainstream, for such ones like you will no longer blind anyone else from here on out, and a whole lot of us are making this so.

The more you know, the better.

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Not really, for I made references to that sole verse for a reason, you fail to see what I was alluding to, thus the silliness in the copy/paste comments that you made in respond. You are not the first Trinitarian I have seen, nor are you the last, but all Jesus Thumpers who consider him as a God are all identical, and very flat in explanation and not on biblical hermeneutics.

Paul never tells us what Jesus regarded and or considered; he tells us what Jesus did not consider or regard equal to God the Father. Even Jesus himself did not regard or consider to such - the idea of being equal to God, hence the comment, Jesus is not equal with God, at all, whatsoever. He did not regard a plunder to be equal to God, period. This was something Jesus did not do and Paul tells us further down the line that to tell us what Jesus did do in contrast to what he did not do.

You are, for this is common coming from a person who has posted comments back to back within seconds of each other, you only sing your song to those who want to listen, not to those who do not.

I am not American either, nor were you referred to as one, but one thing is certain, you can read, comprehend, and understand as well as respond in English. Triggered means (of a response) caused by particular action, process, or situation. Pertaining to what I have said in a single comment, you went on your merry little way to seek what man man understanding you can find and post in not once, not twice, but several times to a minor comment of which you yourself do not know what I was aiming for, which is ironic because it would seem you still fail in grasping what I stated about the verse I posted.

Your posts however, have many errors in it, and I am not the only one who sees that.

 

Therefore, using Philippians 2:5-8 will not help your case, specifically verse 6. It has been talked about a lot and has been correctly confuted in both context and a great deal of biblical hermeneutics.

That we must recognize to ourselves who Christ Jesus is, The Son of God, The Lamb who has been sent with God abiding in Him, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance and or the likeness as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death when he, Christ Jesus, was crucified.

When it comes to scripture, I am very strict, to the point I give lecture and or critical criticism, I blame the CSE community who consist of those who are up there in their Theology since I have grown in such a community, who is often critical. I am neutral with you, and clearly it is known as to how my view of the Trinity is, I see it as unbibical and for many many years, I come across the same people like you, day in and day out, with the same response and such only prompts me to correct, nothing more. I can be a bit brash when I stumble unto honesty and clearly ones who have been misguided, and I do not take kindly to those who call everyone who strives to do what the bible says only to be marked as denying Christ, the same end-all nonsense that only comes from the Trinitarian camp, and with the experience I have, I can point out many wrong to people to claim this as well as Molech worshiping Christians and any from the mainstream. You have proven yourself to be the obvious candidate.

Oh, I am a Christian, and clearly I, as a Christian, will do what is necessary to defend scripture, as I have stated time and time again, to many, even to your Trinitarian scholars, Jay Smith and the like - you are no different.

You haven't proven anything. I know what Emmanual (Immanual) means, any man who utters sheer hermeneutics, knows the bible page to page, book to book and knows passages even by the slightest of thought. Such ones like myself take the bible with the utmost seriousness as well as Christian History of all men.

I am not a one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, however, I have studied their Christology and understand where they are coming from, as with any Restorationist Christian, for Restorationist tend to be closer to what is truth than most. They do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe Hell is the lake of fire (for clearly Hell cannot be cast into Hell), they do not believe Jesus is God, and a list of other things. The defense comes when people make lies about Restorationist, they say they have guns under their churches, they say they have altered the bible when clearly they follow the oldest source, and it has been proven by even the most critical opponents to Trinitarianism, and the like.

You can believe in the tooth fairy, or Caesar the Ghost, I am what I am, and I know what I know. When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

One should be able to speak truth out of all the misconceptions that are out there, an example would be the comment you made: They deny Jesus. That is false, it is evident this claim of yours is very untrue and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that comes from the same people straight out of the mainstream, what is also untrue is the teaching that everyone who denies the Trinity will be tossed into the fire and be tormented with God overlooking them for an entirety, this is utterly false and clearly you do not know God's reaction in the old Testament to such a thing, the very reason I alluded to what I would have been said, an clearly, you missed it.

You can't stick to the Word of God because you are adding mainstream ideals to the scripture. This is the very reason why people like you are having a declining mainstream church, when people find out about the false explanation of verses and passages, they just leave Christianity altogether, and the irony is even Muslims are pointing this out, and I have made mention to this proof before, that being said, the mainstream adaptation of Christianity does not follow the church, nor does it follow the scripture, and clearly, you remain ignorant of this, as do your mainstream brothers and sisters who sees the truth in the bible, but turns away from it. You can quote the Watchtower until the cows come home, but actual facts, and biblical hermeneutics will put you in place, no matter how you knock. Us at CSE know everything, for the community itself is strictly bible based and we are harden in knowledge because of what the bible says, as well as our knowledge in the history of the church and Christianity itself, like a fire, what the bible says will and always will prevail.

The fact you do not know the oldest and most reliable source, further proves my claim - You do not know your bible as well as you think, and the fact you stated that, well, it proves what we say about the mainstream Trinitarians of Christendom.

A shame, but bless be those who wake up from the misguidance of the mainstream and seek and apply scriptural proof, woe to those who know of such and remains ignorant.

There is no problem, for what I say is truth and always will be truth, I do not make the Father or his Son appear as a Triune being or a being who works out of modes - no, such a thing are utter heresies and does not follow our Apostolic Age brothers and sisters of old.

The Father is the One and Only True God, and such is affirmed and made in testimony from individuals like Peter, Paul, John and many more, even our Lord, Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus, as a child, a born Jew under the Law, had to recite, learn, pray, observe the Old Testament as well as learn of who the God of Israel is and what he has done for the people, hence the very law of which is considers the foremost commandment he profess, well into his adulthood.

What you fail to see in Isaiah 9:6 is the very context of what this verse says. The facts regarding this verse/passage show us that such names are given to people as well as places, for these names do not mean that these people are places are therefore God. Moreover, it show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes, mainly if the verse is taken into context just as what such was done in a similar fashion regarding Hezekiah, a son of David (forefather), who will sit on the throne of David. Anyone who understands the context of this verse will recognize what this verse is referring to, describing even, what God the Father Yahweh/Jehovah will accomplish through this child-son. The context is there, yet you do not see it because you are an obvious mainstream who allows himself to be blind.

 

Don't see why you are quoting Psalms 10:16, that verse is passage referring to God the Father. This merely tells us that God is King forever and ever and it is a direct reference to Exodus 15:18, Psalms 145:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:34 and 1 Timothy 1:17 - exactly. If Strong's is solely applied for the Hebrew Old Testament verses, we see of whom it points to - יְהוָ֣ה which refers to Yahweh/Jehovah aka YHWH/YHVH (

    Hello guest!
), God Almighty (El Shaddai). - 
    Hello guest!

As for Daniel 6:26, which also points to Daniel 3:29, is also referring to God the Father, who is indeed the God of Daniel, the very same and only God to Sha'drach, Me'shach and A'bed'ne'go.

As for the last statement you made, clearly you have no idea what biblical hermeneutics even means. Such ones who speak of hermeneutics are clearly well disciplined in scripture and history pertaining to the church and Christianity of old, therefore, I know quite a lot, I am able to speak Greek as well as Hebrew, of which I thank my professor for, who dwells in Israel's history, as well as the Old Testament.

They were mentioned to make a point, something of which you did not see regarding to what I made the response to. We are on track, the question is, why do you not see it yet?

This was brought up because I stated the following to your claim: God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus

The very reason why I continued on to say: this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

Both of them knew what Jesus' role was, Zechariah, being the one to speak to Gabriel before, referred to Jesus as the Horn of Salvation, the one to bring deliverance to the people, the one who has been talked about, etc.

The fact that you didn't see or understood, further proves my point. Mainstream Christians like you do not read for context nor do you bear absolute understand of a passage correctly, the ironic part, it does not take a Jehovah's Witness to tell you when the very Bible says it clearly.

We know of John's role due to what Gabriel, as well as what Zechariah had said we we see it, we know it. Jesus' Baptism, John's Testimony.

But you are either confusing the two or calling one the other.

Jesus was sinless and pure compared to us sin filled individuals. Jesus was flesh though, he was tired, hungry, angry, troubled and yet fearful, and not all knowing. Unlike us God was with him 100% of the way, hence Jesus as his chosen Messiah.

God the Father is certainly not like us men, however your copy/paste response says otherwise, perhaps next time re-read hat you post.

For the last bit, the Head of the Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3, 15:27, 28) - that alone should be very clear to you. If Christ is clearly greater than us men, which is evident, God himself is clearly above Christ, for no one is equal to or above God. God is the life-giver, he raised the Christ out of the death, for we know God the Father is the God of the Living and the Dead, is is that great, as if the Old Testament had not made it any clearer, especially regarding the whole temple fire situation that was immense to the point even the people on the outside of the temple made reaction to it, or the fact that the Moses being the one to speak to God for the Israelites were in fear of God for not only he was great, they feared him.

As always, and no, what you made response to regarding John 10:30 is incorrect. If we had to accept your mainstream stance on this verse, we should be calling the Disciples God also, clearly this will not still well with any man. In John 14:28, it means what it means, the very fact that it makes a direct references to verses that further proves Jesus' position when compared to the Father only solidifies truth rather than a Trinitarian claim. Moreover, at John 10:29 (cf. 1 Peter 1:4, 5), he tells us the Father is greater than all, including as to what God has given Jesus. Statements like this are generally ignored by Trinitarians making this claim.

As the representative sent by God, Christ Jesus acted on God's behalf. If you so dearly what to equal Jesus to God, the only thing you can equal - acting on God's behalf as his representative (Shaliah) on earth, coming in flesh with the very Words God put in his Prophet's mouth. As for all this power and what God can do, clearly Jesus does not have such going for him, even when he has risen and made superior to the angels, for the Father is and will always be greater than him for he is the Head of the Christ, and clearly Jesus, in this respects is not equal to the Father, whatsoever, the servant is always equal in what he can do and what his master can do, but in power, position and status, the servant will never surpass or be greater, perhaps better than his master.

Jesus was sent, came in the name of God the Father, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Clearly divine sonship, for this is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God, as seen in Romans 8:14 (see John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory, and did not come in his own name, but, he came in the name of the only God his, Father - God Almighty (El Shaddai).

As someone who knows Greek quite well, I can see that you tend to mix in your own mainstream theology into the passage, you do realize such a word has other occurrences in scripture, right? Using it for this sole verse and being ignorant of the others, adding your own man made understanding to such, is very revealing, perhaps, more revealing that a red dot on a large white sheet of paper - it shows. 

Also its meizón  (μείζων) it's number is  3187, in addition, it is comparative to/of 3173, mégas.

If God is above all and is clearly a God of all his sons and all those who dwell the earth, as well as being above the one he has risen and made clear, for God is indeed the God of both the living and the dead, clearly, God is very, very powerful and very great, for he is indeed, God Almighty (El Shaddai).

But it is what the cross-references says and the context of how Jesus is one with the Father. When I say something and affirm it, there is a reason behind it, pertaining to everything I say and make reference to. I do not apply man's understanding, as you have, I merely apply sheer biblical hermeneutics and nothing more.

I bring up points to correct you, I do not expect, nor do I care about response from you, but should you do make some response that is of ill-intent, dishonest, false, ignorant, silly, foolish, slander, false accusations, expect to be corrected, and I always deliver with every truth I speak, for I speak of what the bible teaches and what the passages convey, nothing more and I speak against lies made in regards to history of Christianity and scripture, nothing more - for I defend solely what the bible says and what it teaches with strict seriousness.

My comments are always like this, I am known for this, that being said, maybe perhaps when you make comments, do not make an obvious copy/paste from a single minded source, and put everything into one response instead, none of us here for s 3 paged response to 1 verse and or passage. Fit everything into one page and maybe you will not get a point for point lecture on errors of which you have professed.

I have read what you said, I never shy away from reading anything from anyone, for any man who professes  and studies biblical hermeneutics is open to hear from all men, and even the bible informs us to be very good hearers and not be forgetful, something I apply for a very long time.

 

As for @Anna response, it is indeed correct. You call her wrong for it is not her answer, you call her wrong because she is most likely one of Jehovah's Witnesses and or adhere to the Non-Trinitarian faith of which they profess. The irony, even non JWs or non Christians understood this passage, very clearly, Muslims even, ones like Hamza Myatt.

Your response: No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

As I have stated before, Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father. What you also missed is the very Laws those Jews follow, a Law of which God himself had said to which Jesus made mention of in verse 34, 35. The law of which he speaks of (clearly cannot be broken) is found in Psalms 82:6

We see here that God has said the following: I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It also makes a direct reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5

  • For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

We see further on that Jesus made it clear that he was sanctified as well as being sent by the Father into this world and claimed to be, even said, that he is God's Son.

Now, when we are honest with the CONTEXT and the attitude and state of these Jews, these Pharisees, we see exactly as to why this situation is and how it came to such.

In the Gospel accounts, Christ Jesus did not spare any words concerning the Pharisees. In the Gospel of John just two chapters earlier, Jesus had explained how these Jews could not understand him because they were children of the devil, and the words he spoke could not be heard by them because they were so blindly caught up in their own desires to do the will of their father Satan. We know this because of John 8:38-47.

Now if we are being honest, we are to appreciate what Jesus said here, for it is clear. Jesus had said these Jews were not able to comprehend what he was saying to them because they were children of the devil and wanted to do the desires of Satan the Devil. They couldn't understand Jesus because they were not of God at all (Pharisees). Therefore, it is a bit absurd to suggest and or assume that these Jews are necessarily stating an accurate understanding of Jesus at verse 33 in John 10. They did the works of their father the devil and the devil is the father of lies and clearly such ones were indeed lairs. Not only do we find the Jews clearly dumbfounded throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus said these men were liars and murderers who wanted to kill him. Which calls into questions such ones like yourself, as to why do Trinitarian mainstreamers like you regard the words of these evil men as if they were spoken by God Himself? Jesus said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were evil men who were not of God. This fact alone presents a serious problem for the Trinitarian interpretation of verse 33 since the interpretation in question, the very one being professed, relies entirely on the premise that they did indeed understand Jesus and were accurately portraying who he was. Hence, the very reason why we have people like you claiming these Jews completely understood Jesus when Jesus declared they did not and could not understand what he was saying to them because they were of the devil and blinded by their desires to do their father's will.

So Anna's response here: Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

Is right because Jesus was in direct line of sight of the Pharisees, and we already know how they view Jesus, and clearly, they are not like fan girls seeking an autograph from someone they admire.

Anna's Response: On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

Which is also indeed true, but you still ignore biblical fact.

Anna's response: Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

For this is indeed what Jesus made it clear to us as what being one even means, it does not make him God, nor his disciples and or those of the early Church.

And lastly,: In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

Which is exactly and 100% true. Yet you still act out how you are in your triggered and rant filled antics,and yet you call yourself, Jesus Defender. All I see is another typical Trinitarian out of the mainstream, for such ones like you will no longer blind anyone else from here on out, and a whole lot of us are making this so.

The more you know, the better.

I am not going to address this pathetically long post, so congratulations, you got what you wanted.

Now, you can play the "haha, you cannot refute anything i say" game or the "i won" game if that makes you feel better.

 

you are a fool brainwashed into your unitarian cult and instead of having a dialog on one point at a time, you make absurdly long posts in the hope the other person will give up.

 

Well, you win.

 

I give up on you.

 

God bless.

 

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5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I am not going to address this pathetically long post, so congratulations, you got what you wanted.

Typical. Everything I address is always in a single post when a response is required. I do not seek what I want, I merely address what is truth out of the bundle of lies and or conspiracy people will bring up, I did it before, and I will do it and always will do it again - especially when met with individuals like you, who are all the same, especially the "you deny Jesus"category.

I suggest you check thyself before thee wreckth thyself, for if I last recall the only absurdity of a long post originated with you and you alone (5 pages, back to back, a clear copy and paste full of errors and boosting it as truth, is indeed, pathetic, such of which will make even a novice among JW look more experienced in regards of which you have displayed:

 

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now, you can play the "haha, you cannot refute anything i say" game or the "i won" game if that makes you feel better.

When it comes to the Bible and Theology, and the Christology of others, it is no game. God does not play games with anyone, nor any serious one who applies biblical study and understanding in their everyday lives. If you want to play games, I suggest you find yourself a local playground, perhaps one with a jungle jim.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

you are a fool brainwashed into your unitarian cult and instead of having a dialog on one point at a time, you make absurdly long posts in the hope the other person will give up.

Typical. Clearly you do not know my actual stance, for I have said before, I am an independent biblical Unitarian, one that believes Jesus as indeed pre-existed not to be compared with other Unitarians who do not. The funny thing is, I had yet to address anything pertaining to such, but I can see you making checks you are not willing to cash and I can address one thing further proves why you mainstream are at fault. And no, I am no brainwashed into anything, with what I know and my experience, you say this because all you want to do is throw a jab at me, a jab that is seen as weak and flails, unable to make contact.

You speak of long posts, but if I last recall, you were the one who make more than 3 page long posts to a single response I made, to be ignorant of what you made post of in regards to a single comment I made, that is very hypocritical, for I make a direct response all in 1 post and 1 post alone, which is very evident starting from page 5 and onward.

But people like you do not like biblical explanation, you see a verse, accept it as is without further research and or study, Jesus wants teachers, not "as is" mainstreams of today's Christendom who lack understanding.

I do not expect people to give up, so do not make a claim you cannot cash, I expect people to learn out of the mist of their own dishonesty, and when I am met with a response, as I said here, time and time again, I always response, even directly. But it would seem truth itself is too much for you to bear.

Cult? That is cute. What is funny is the hypocrisy is there. You deceive millions by means of twisting the truth, you accept it, embrace it. Mainstream Christianity stick together and always will and always have until judgement day, the very day they will see for themselves that it is indeed too late. You have broken the church, you have allowed people to not take the bible seriously and continue to lead a double life in sinning, you do nothing in regards of the Great Commission, there are parts of the world that do not know God and they expect the favor of knowing the truth, not some man made silliness came out of the 4th century, where is is clear that your people would even kill to push the Trinity. The history is there, and people know it, the very reason why real Christians around the globe is teaching what is right, what is truth against your mainstream theology that has plague this world like a spreading virus to an open wound. And such ones like you will attack and make speak of conspiracy about others, only to push your biblical, even kicking those who are down to justify the absurdity of the mainstream teachings.

Clearly, you, are no defender, nothing more than a pawn, a blind one to the mainstream, the truth is presented before you, it does not take a JW to even show you that, but you refuse it, you remain ignorant of it and therefore you will be the very person to preach and rant about a false doctrine only to be met with individuals like me, and trust me, there are those who are far worse and can be beyong stirct and critical.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Well, you win.

I give up on you.

God bless.

You can continue to say that. I am not here for games - games are for children. I am here to discuss truth from the bible itself an speak against falsehood of anther's Christology, especially when such ones like yourself is quick to accuse others when the gas is very low.

Perhaps next time, read your Bible more and know what truth is, and open your eyes to see you have been taught by those who deceive, but is is 100% fact, that JW opponents are more crazed and blind than others, one such as yourself.

That being said, you call those blind and or brainwashed, yet you take the words of Satan's followers seriously when Jesus made it clear as to what he said before, THAT, my friend, is a problem, and you not knowing that only proves the very point I make time and time again, and I made acknowledgement of that, yet you continue to refuse the very bible you read, for @Anna comment was direct from the bible, and the bible alone, and still you remain ignorant.

So it is safe to say that those who do not adhere to truth, those who do not apply God's Law, those who do not recognize or apply what Jesus entrusted his disciples with, etc. there is no question on who will be saved and who will not.

I will put this verse here so you know:

  • Matthew 7:22, 23 - (22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?Â’ (23) But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

As I said, this is no game an this is no win/lose situation, I expect you to LEARN and APPLY what the bible says. For you do not see it, but the reality is, this is indeed a LIFE OR DEATH situation, the JWs are smart enough to also see this hence the very reason they are deemed Restorationist, you have to be also and thread carefully. If not, clearly when Jesus comes, with a sword in hand, he will not recognize you, best to make the effort to be recognize rather than not being recognize, for if you have forgotten, the end times and tribulations conclusion will be far worse than what has already been done in ancient times.

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Where is "Christ" in the trinity doctrine?    The trinity excludes him.  The three persons have no names. It is a generic formula borrowed and copied from pagan religions. Jesus Christ is completely absent from 

    Hello guest!
.

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@Brother Rando The fun factor is, Lord Jesus Christ affirmation of the law of which he was brought up into as a child defeats the Trinity doctrine catastrophically (Mark 12:28-34; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Deuteronomy 6:4), as well as Jesus' position as a mediator regarding both practitioners and benefactors. This also  goes for the Testimony of John the Baptist and Simon Peter, both of whom who bore witness to God the Father speaking to Jesus, as well as the crowd as seen in John 12, in addition to Paul's affirmation of the Law and what he had sent to the Early Christian Church and clearly states Jesus not being considered equal to God in Philippians 2:6, onward you see of whom Paul was referring to, lastly, we have Jesus himself affirming that the Father is indeed his God (John 20:17, Revelations 3:2) as well as to the very end of his life, he cried out to God (Matthew 27:46, foretelling - Psalms 22:1,Isaiah 53:10, Mark 15:34).

 

That being said, both the Law and mediatorship ultimately destroys the Trinitarian claim, for everyone is aware that Jesus had read the Old Testament and knows about who His God is and what His God had done for the people.

People know such truths, but they refuse to listen.

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Yes...  "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus," (1 Timothy 2:5)

and  "God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed"  (Acts 2:36) 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/24/2018 at 6:45 AM, Brother Rando said:

Where is "Christ" in the trinity doctrine?    The trinity excludes him.  The three persons have no names. It is a generic formula borrowed and copied from pagan religions. Jesus Christ is completely absent from 

    Hello guest!
.

You and your organisation do NOT understand the Bible OR what Christians believe.

You cannot PROVE your beliefs. 

The early church fathers believed the trinity, despite what your stupid book "should you believe the trinity?" states. But, unlike that laughable book, _I_ can provide quotes from the church fathers to back up my assertion.

The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.

-They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
-‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)

Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’. They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:


i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.


ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..

iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends.Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.

iv) JWs quote HislopÂ’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they donÂ’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from HislopÂ’s quote:
‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)
- About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?
- 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.
- 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.
- The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.
- The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.

v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings
have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.

vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.
This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).

vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point. Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk * ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’   [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]

‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:


‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the
Trinity was right or wrong.

The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.

 

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On 6/24/2018 at 1:06 AM, Space Merchant said:

Typical. Everything I address is always in a single post when a response is required. I do not seek what I want, I merely address what is truth out of the bundle of lies and or conspiracy people will bring up, I did it before, and I will do it and always will do it again - especially when met with individuals like you, who are all the same, especially the "you deny Jesus"category.

I suggest you check thyself before thee wreckth thyself, for if I last recall the only absurdity of a long post originated with you and you alone (5 pages, back to back, a clear copy and paste full of errors and boosting it as truth, is indeed, pathetic, such of which will make even a novice among JW look more experienced in regards of which you have displayed:

 

When it comes to the Bible and Theology, and the Christology of others, it is no game. God does not play games with anyone, nor any serious one who applies biblical study and understanding in their everyday lives. If you want to play games, I suggest you find yourself a local playground, perhaps one with a jungle jim.

Typical. Clearly you do not know my actual stance, for I have said before, I am an independent biblical Unitarian, one that believes Jesus as indeed pre-existed not to be compared with other Unitarians who do not. The funny thing is, I had yet to address anything pertaining to such, but I can see you making checks you are not willing to cash and I can address one thing further proves why you mainstream are at fault. And no, I am no brainwashed into anything, with what I know and my experience, you say this because all you want to do is throw a jab at me, a jab that is seen as weak and flails, unable to make contact.

You speak of long posts, but if I last recall, you were the one who make more than 3 page long posts to a single response I made, to be ignorant of what you made post of in regards to a single comment I made, that is very hypocritical, for I make a direct response all in 1 post and 1 post alone, which is very evident starting from page 5 and onward.

But people like you do not like biblical explanation, you see a verse, accept it as is without further research and or study, Jesus wants teachers, not "as is" mainstreams of today's Christendom who lack understanding.

I do not expect people to give up, so do not make a claim you cannot cash, I expect people to learn out of the mist of their own dishonesty, and when I am met with a response, as I said here, time and time again, I always response, even directly. But it would seem truth itself is too much for you to bear.

Cult? That is cute. What is funny is the hypocrisy is there. You deceive millions by means of twisting the truth, you accept it, embrace it. Mainstream Christianity stick together and always will and always have until judgement day, the very day they will see for themselves that it is indeed too late. You have broken the church, you have allowed people to not take the bible seriously and continue to lead a double life in sinning, you do nothing in regards of the Great Commission, there are parts of the world that do not know God and they expect the favor of knowing the truth, not some man made silliness came out of the 4th century, where is is clear that your people would even kill to push the Trinity. The history is there, and people know it, the very reason why real Christians around the globe is teaching what is right, what is truth against your mainstream theology that has plague this world like a spreading virus to an open wound. And such ones like you will attack and make speak of conspiracy about others, only to push your biblical, even kicking those who are down to justify the absurdity of the mainstream teachings.

Clearly, you, are no defender, nothing more than a pawn, a blind one to the mainstream, the truth is presented before you, it does not take a JW to even show you that, but you refuse it, you remain ignorant of it and therefore you will be the very person to preach and rant about a false doctrine only to be met with individuals like me, and trust me, there are those who are far worse and can be beyong stirct and critical.

You can continue to say that. I am not here for games - games are for children. I am here to discuss truth from the bible itself an speak against falsehood of anther's Christology, especially when such ones like yourself is quick to accuse others when the gas is very low.

Perhaps next time, read your Bible more and know what truth is, and open your eyes to see you have been taught by those who deceive, but is is 100% fact, that JW opponents are more crazed and blind than others, one such as yourself.

That being said, you call those blind and or brainwashed, yet you take the words of Satan's followers seriously when Jesus made it clear as to what he said before, THAT, my friend, is a problem, and you not knowing that only proves the very point I make time and time again, and I made acknowledgement of that, yet you continue to refuse the very bible you read, for @Anna comment was direct from the bible, and the bible alone, and still you remain ignorant.

So it is safe to say that those who do not adhere to truth, those who do not apply God's Law, those who do not recognize or apply what Jesus entrusted his disciples with, etc. there is no question on who will be saved and who will not.

I will put this verse here so you know:

  • Matthew 7:22, 23 - (22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?Â’ (23) But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

As I said, this is no game an this is no win/lose situation, I expect you to LEARN and APPLY what the bible says. For you do not see it, but the reality is, this is indeed a LIFE OR DEATH situation, the JWs are smart enough to also see this hence the very reason they are deemed Restorationist, you have to be also and thread carefully. If not, clearly when Jesus comes, with a sword in hand, he will not recognize you, best to make the effort to be recognize rather than not being recognize, for if you have forgotten, the end times and tribulations conclusion will be far worse than what has already been done in ancient times.

 

God bless you.

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@Jesus.defender An the copy and paste antics keeps on going, as for our early Christian counterparts, they were entirety Subornationist, even during the Apostolic Age times (such I had already addressed months ago). The funny thing is this is has nothing to do with the bible, just your obvious disdain for a Non-Trinitarian group, JWs.

Also I am is not the same as I am that I am (ego eimi) that I am/eyeh asher eyeh (ego eimi ho on), please do not confuse such, and it further proves you are as lost as can be.

That being said, a man who is blind, misguided, does not show Berean like traits cannot bless anyone, for he, the man who blesses, is already lost and totally unaware.

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@Jesus.defender Well Sir. You have no understanding because you have been counted 'wicked' and have already took the number of the beast.  .  

Jesus never claims to be the I AM THAT I AM... The "I am" is God's Representative.  I'm not witnessing to you for you to gain salvation but rather that the 'wicked' be counted as wicked so the righteous can go on living on a paradise Earth as you are being Destroyed.  "Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalms 37:10-11)

The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it."(Psalms 37:29)  

God is a title that can assigned in the Godhead. The Godhead is not a person nor it is in the trinity doctrine.  The Godhead is a Divine Arrangement of Authority,  Jesus is the Word of God and called the Great Prophet, Paul also referred to himself as the I AM also and so did the angel Gabriel.

"I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared.  Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him." (Exodus 23:20-21)

If God  is "I AM that I AM" then who is the angel that appeared to Moses in the burning Bush.  Have you never read that No Man has Seen God at any time except his only begotten son??  If the angel would contain God's Name with in him, would that be "I am" ?  God's Name is Jehovah and God made Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)  Jesus means 'Jehovah is Salvation" .... my name is in him." (Exodus 23:20-21)

Jesus is the Lord, the Angel of God's Presence, the one to inspect the Temple. "Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts." (Malachi 3:1 Darby)  

The wicked have no understanding. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it." (Matthew 23:37)
 

To reject Jesus Christ as the Angel of God’s Presence you would have to reject this scripture, the Word of God.  “In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them and carried them all the days of old.” (Isaiah 63:9 Darby)

1) You would have to reject that Jesus Christ was afflicted with our sins.

2) You would have to reject that Jesus Christ is our Salvation.

3) You would have to reject that Jesus Christ loved us or felt pity for us.

4) You would have to reject that Jesus Christ is our Redeemer.

5) You would have to reject that Jesus Christ died for our sins once and for all time.

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Exodus 23:20-21 KJV)

Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Luke 9:35)   

    Hello guest!

Jesus when translated means ‘Jehovah is Salvation’. “For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:39)  

    Hello guest!

"Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:10)  Those counted wicked are already dying the second death for denying Jesus as 'the Christ, the son of the living God' (Matthew 16:16)

To request a free home Bible Study click 

    Hello guest!
.
 

I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” (Rev 16:16)  You're no Christian but an IMPOSTOR.   "So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)  If I was to believe your false theology that Jesus is God, then can we conclude that God  has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs??  The snake is still twisting scripture. So God was worse than the angels until an angel gave God a Name?  Koo koo for Coco Puffs...

"And though my physical condition was a trial for you, you did not treat me with contempt or disgust; but you received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14) 

 

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@Brother Rando It is impossible to reason with a Trinitarian, such ones are way too dense in the skull compared to a child who listens and understands of what the scriptures mean and from the one who teaches said scriptures to him. Like his kind, such ones will use 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 as well as a dozen of other verses said to have been forged, added, not following the oldest source. It is known to everyone that Trinitarians have forged 1 John 5:7 for the original verse says the following: For there are three that testify [witnesses]: for this original form is of the oldest source around the 4th century, we see Trinitarians use this verse, but its forged counterpart that is used by the KJV, as seen here: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Such has been changed via TR/JC 16th century. The same goes for 1 Timothy 3:16 for GOD was added into the verse to make Jesus appear as God when in reality, the 4th century source does not say GOD anywhere in this verse.

The hypocrisy is that not only the Truth Deserter is not only a Trinitarian, he is clearly a JW opponent (who follows a man who is both an atheist and a Wiccan paganist) of some of the worse kind, for they spout everything and anything to say JWs are in the wrong, yet they do not have anything to back it up. The Truth Deserter stated in his other post JWs omitted the verse to paint them as wrong, when in reality, the verses in question are not of the original source, the most damaging thing is many people found out about the forgeries and additions that originated from the 16 century tom foolery, even Muslims as well as those who do not follow a Christian denomination and are totally neutral, up and down the UK in Speaker's Corner will bring this truth to light to the point that Trinitarians have nothing to say about their falsehood. They also like to use 1 Peter 1:1-2, but never address the second portion of verse 2 nor do they go on to verse 3 because Simon Peter addresses the only true God as the Father, then again, any testimony made by Peter, Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus and last but not least, God, utterly destroys silly claims such ones make. And they most efintaly will not agree with Paul either, for what Paul had addressed about Jesus in Galatians 4:14.

It is even funnier when they attempt to sing and dance to defend the whole Adulterous Woman passage (John 8:1-11) or prove that the Holy Spirit is a person, but when the critical questions are asked, they refuse to answer.

For any man who defends forgeries, it is as if he is throwing a snowball into a roaring furnace, for such an action will not yield any result, only further proves that the Trinitarian doctrine an its followers are decreasing.

A little something should any Trinitarian have something to say about removed Bible verses: 

    Hello guest!

That being said, they are ignorant, but only a handful among them listen to reason for such ones do not no any better compared to their dense headed counterparts, but it would seem we have quite the fish on this hook, and out of the bible, there is but 3 verses that utterly destroys their claims and doctrine in it's place.

Other than that, my reaction with hardcore Trinitarians is the same when they flail like fish to defend falsehood, they make agnostics look good to some degree:

tenor.gif

 

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1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:

@Jesus.defender Well Sir. You have no understanding because you have been counted 'wicked' and have already took the number of the beast.  .  

 

Ok, thank you for that.

 

You are right. I AM a wicked, dirty, rotten, filthy sinner just like you.

 

God bless you.

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@Brother Rando It is impossible to reason with a Trinitarian, such ones are way too dense in the skull compared to a child who listens and understands of what the scriptures mean and from the one who teaches said scriptures to him. Like his kind, such ones will use 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 as well as a dozen of other verses said to have been forged, added, not following the oldest source.

 

LOL. You, sir are an idiot.

 

forged? added? Right, WHEN and by WHOM? 

 

DONT copy and paste, i know you hate that, and dont refer people to a website.

 

Come on, WHEN and WHO?

 

funny how not even a dozen verses in the Bible can convince you. Your response? Oh, those passages are forged or added.

And you are stupid to think that the EARLIER a document is, that automatically makes it TRUE.

you are a ridiculous and sad person.

 

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@Jesus.defender None of your verses say that Jesus is God.  If so, the account would read something like this. When God was 12 years old, God got lost. God's Parents were stricken with worry and panic. Three days later God's Parents found God in his House. God's Parents rebuked God for worrying them. 

The Delusional Trinity claims each separate persons in the trinity is God by himself.

It then lists God the Father to be God, that's one god, then  God the Son to be God to be a second god, then God the holy Spirit to be God, a third god.

Isn't listing the three separate persons each as God a contradiction?  It then goes to say the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is Not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father or the Son.

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However a trinitarian  would not claim that Jesus is God but rather that Jesus is the second person of the trinity. But if they said that, they would nullify their own doctrine because the trinity excludes Christ because it denies Christ, it's an Anti-Christian doctrine. This is the Catholic trinity... nothing Christian about But it get worse.  The trinitarian of the 2nd to 4th Century condemn  Sabellianism  has HERESY...

                                                                     

                                                                   The person on the board claiming to be a Jesus Defender, actually worships the Celtic trinity.  It's a hybrid of the trinity and modalism/sabellaism   Sabellianism the modalistic doctrines of Sabellius, 3rdentury prelate, especially that the Trinity has but one divine essence and that the persons are only varying manifestations of God not really persons.   Also called Modalistic Monarchianism. — Sabellian, n.,adj.  NOTICE the doctrines totally omit Jesus Christ from them!  How is the Celtic trinity represented by the one so-called Jesus Defender is claiming?  The three parts are symbolized  by three interlocking 666's.  Its called the circle of confusion. because this demonic teaching denies Jesus Christ at all angles and you go around and around like a dog or snake chasing its own tail, always CHANGING but never coming to an accurate knowledge of Christ.   It is also called the Celtic Knot, the snake has him engulfed and has a deathly strangle hold of him robbing his life little by little...... It simply denies Christ altogether by claiming Jesus is God all by himself.  Some say Jesus is Jehovah and they slam Holy Spirit in rejecting it totally.  Speaking against Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.  

Jubilee Bible 2000
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.

The verse for salvation is so so simple. "For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)   Notice his claims about Jesus is that he is God ....  and he certainly doesn't believe God raised him up from the dead because he claims Jesus is God.

Teaching the Son is the Father is also a LIE... "Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 9)

 

Cletic Knot.png

 

 

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120 verses say 'Jesus is God"???   I was asking for just one....  AND I'M STILL Waiting.....   just one would suffice...  You know if you stop hiding your religion I can tell you which trinity you believe in.  But I think I probably got it down pretty accurate.  Baptists claim to be trinitarians but when they can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up God, they switch to the other heretical teaching of modalism.  They drop the Father and Holy Spirit.... why would you jump out of the frying pan into the fire?? 

Jesus was begotten, so at one time he never was... all the angels existed before the Abraham.  Where is the scripture that states Jesus is the I AM that I AM????   None of the trinities state that either....  This follow verse was written 96 CE 63 years after Jesus ascended to Heaven. "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him," (Rev 1:1)

Whose this angel with glory?? "After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory." (Rev 18:1)

If Jesus is God, then who gave him this authority? An Angel??  "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18) 

Why do trinitarians claim Jesus is Co-equal to his Father, then claim in the same breath that Jesus is God??   I mean if Jesus is God?  Then who would be Co-equal with him??   Another God???  "the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)   I never found the word Co-Equal in ANY SCRIPTURE.  Are you know going to claim that when a couple gets married they actually become in flesh in a literal sense??   They don't work together as a team for one purpose??  What about John 17:22 when Jesus prayed to his Father... ooppps...  Why did Jesus pray?  Didn't he know his OWN THOUGHTS??   I wonder if he knew what he was going to ask himself to do??  lol  Round and round we go... but you're not coming out.... you're stuck.... 

Could the trinity doctrine be your golden calf??    If Jesus is God, then who raised him from the DEAD??   

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brother Rando said:

120 verses say 'Jesus is God"???   I was asking for just one....  AND I'M STILL Waiting.....   just one would suffice...  You know if you stop hiding your religion I can tell you which trinity you believe in.  But I think I probably got it down pretty accurate.  Baptists claim to be trinitarians but when they can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up God, they switch to the other heretical teaching of modalism.  They drop the Father and Holy Spirit.... why would you jump out of the frying pan into the fire?? 

Jesus was begotten, so at one time he never was... all the angels existed before the Abraham.  Where is the scripture that states Jesus is the I AM that I AM????   None of the trinities state that either....  This follow verse was written 96 CE 63 years after Jesus ascended to Heaven. "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him," (Rev 1:1)

Whose this angel with glory?? "After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory." (Rev 18:1)

If Jesus is God, then who gave him this authority? An Angel??  "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18) 

Why do trinitarians claim Jesus is Co-equal to his Father, then claim in the same breath that Jesus is God??   I mean if Jesus is God?  Then who would be Co-equal with him??   Another God???  "the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)   I never found the word Co-Equal in ANY SCRIPTURE.  Are you know going to claim that when a couple gets married they actually become in flesh in a literal sense??   They don't work together as a team for one purpose??  What about John 17:22 when Jesus prayed to his Father... ooppps...  Why did Jesus pray?  Didn't he know his OWN THOUGHTS??   I wonder if he knew what he was going to ask himself to do??  lol  Round and round we go... but you're not coming out.... you're stuck.... 

Could the trinity doctrine be your golden calf??    If Jesus is God, then who raised him from the DEAD??   

 

 

 

 

 

I can post links showing the trinity to be true. We can post links to eachother and get nowhere.

 

Your problem is you have been brainwashed by the watchtower and are not allowed to think for yourself. ( "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22),  "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 ) )

 

Just because, for example you cannot find the word "trinity" ( which in itself is not important ) in the Bible does not mean it does not exist. The words "theocracy" or "theocratic kingdom"  are not there either, so if you want to go down that route...

 

If anyone would like to discuss things, i am happy to go through verses that you think disprove the "trinity", but let us do it ONE verse per message.

 

In fact, i will start a new thread with just a few passages that support the "trinity" so the messages do not get out-of-hand or too long.

Believe it or not, i am not a bad person. I am fully capable of a polite, friendly dialog. Do not confuse passion for arrogance or rudeness.  Of course, i am human and it is not always easy to turn the other cheek and i succumb to emotions sometimes and give abuse back.

 

If i do not address something that someone wants, there IS a good reason and is not because i don't HAVE rebuttal or reply. maybe the person is generally too rude, maybe the message is too long, maybe it is a red herring, maybe it is off-topic.

 

In the experiences i have had with JW's locally and on social media, a great many of them ( with all due respect ) do not know what Christians believe and your printed material i have found contains many falsehoods, misquotes and outright lies. I have a magazine by my computer desk that talks, for example about spiritists and how we ought to have nothing to do with them. What the article fails to mention is that the watchtower used the words of KNOWN spiritist and mediam johannes greber in the translation of the nwt and "Aid to Bible Understanding".

 

The booklet "Should you believe in the trinity" is at best, laughable and contains many lies and misquotes. I have a whole list of rebuttels for that booklet alone WITH SOURCES.

 

I think the average JW puts the average Christian to shame. They dress appropriately, lead seemingly good lives and go door to door. We Christians ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

 

However, when they blacklist a house because the owner knows the Bible, that's another thing.

 

Sorry for going off-topic a bit. I am just typing what i feel is needed.

BTW: I hate those symbols people use to express the "trinity". Some of them ARE occultic symbols. Just because someone used that symbol to describe the "trinity" does not make the concept occultic.

 

I mean, you guys used the pyramid and calculated the end of the world ( THAT didn't work out, did it?! ) using the measurements of the pyramid as well as astrology was used in some of your publications so lets not start casting stones at eachother. 

 

You ASSUME that people using those symbols are Christian, BTW

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Charles Taze Russell's.JPG

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Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.


God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent


There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.


The Bible says that God the father is God.


The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )


The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11


The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.


Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.


We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us that's the way it is.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ok, thank you for that.

You are right. I AM a wicked, dirty, rotten, filthy sinner just like you.

God bless you.

He called you such because you are speaking of slander, you incite Christian Infighting (a big problem with the West), you bring forth a doctrine that it's even biblical, you use the information from a Wiccan to spread interfaith hate, you are an advocate of breaking God's Laws which is the case with the mainstream, let alone adhering to false ones, and the list goes on. 

We are all indeed sinners, but there is a clear line between those who know they are imperfect vs. those who are imperfect, but sin openly and being ignorant of it.

Other than that, a man who wants others to break God's Law, a man who incite religious infighting, a man who's Spirit has been tested (1 John 4:1) cannot bless anyone. You fit the bill.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.

You are the first of few who say this, this is interesting, either you are learning or you are totally unaware.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent

Indeed, God is the only God, the only true one, and this only God is the Father, according to His testimony, the testimony of Jesus, as well as the testimony of Peter, Paul, and John, the Son of Zechariah and Elizabeth, as well as a list of others.

There is no question that HE, is the only God, the only one, the very one that all young Jews profess as a child and read the Old Testament about, this includes Jesus.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that God the father is God.

Very true, however your other posts tend to be very contradicting to this response.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )?

  • John 8:58 - This verse does not prove Jesus is God for if you recognize what the sons of the Devil were doing verses before and even chapters in what they wanted to do to Jesus. Moreover, I AM (ego eimi) does not prove anything, for not only it is a common Greek saying, Jesus was only making acknowledgement that he pre-existed before Abraham, no mention of him being El Shaddai, Yahweh/Jehovah. This has already been covered here

 

  • John 1:1 - This verse speaks of the Genesis Act of Creation, hence verses 3-6 and the mention John the Baptist several verses onward. The Word if from God because it is His spoken Word, the Word became flesh because Jesus was the one who became a man, the Word is God because we clearly see that God himself had said the following about the coming prophet in Deuteronomy 18:18, also the very one mentioned in Isaiah (also scroll of Isaiah as seen in Luke 4). God had said that he will raise up for them a prophet, one that is like their brothers (Jews). he continues to say that He  will put His words in his mouth, and this prophet will speak to them all that He will command of this prophet. Therefore we know the Word is God because the Word is of God, Jesus, who is the prophet, is the Word because he speaks God's Word, and from the very beginning the Word, that originated from God spoke everything into existence. Further evidence we also have is the Tanakh/Old Testament (they focused specifically on the Torah) of which the Samartians strictly follow, for they lived apart from the Jews and their area was Mount Gerizim, for they awaited this Prophet who speaks God's Word, and we see this unfold in John chapter 4 when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan Woman at the Well of Jacob, despite how Samaritans and Jews view each other, but for Jesus, he ha the utmost respect for the Samaritans and didn't go bashing their views, as you are doing, for Jesus set an example for us to follow. It was here that Jesus revealed himself to be the Messiah, the one sent by God, and clearly we see the reaction of the woman, and eventually the Samaritan people. God is the Word, the Word is of God.

 

  • John 20:28 - Quoting from my article, the facts that come straight from the very pages of the scriptures in the Bible shows us that Thomas was confessing what Jesus had taught him - to see Jesus is to see the Father (John 14:10-11; 12:44-45). That human flesh named Jesus declares the Father (John 1:18). In fact, the entire point of the Gospel of John is to illustrate how the man Jesus made God the Father known. Since there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is put before us, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which had the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God. This can be found here

 

  • Hebrews 1:8 - This verse speaks of Jesus' clear exaltation, after being brought back to life in spirit by God and made Lord. Moreover, Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation of Psalm 45:6. The above translation of Hebrews 1:8 is another example of Trinitarian bias expressed by the mainstream. For it is here that such ones like you try to claim that God the Father is addressing Jesus as "O God." This translation crudely violates the context for the sake of Trinitarian tradition. In addition, such ones make no acknowledgment of the quotation in order to push their doctrine, which is the case with you making a reference to this verse and not taking it into context. When we really take this verse into context, the truth can easily be seen and it should be evident to people that the weight of the evidence if taken into context is clearly against the Trinitarian translation. For the Trinitarian translation not only results in an absurd statement concerning the whole God's God thing, it results in an ancient Davidic King (Psalms 45) who lived long before Jesus being called "God." Trinitarians inconsistently translate ho theos at Hebrews 1:8-9 and the implications are that God has a God and God's God anoints God so that God will make God to be above God's peers. It's ridiculous on the face of it. Clearly that does not sound right at all. Another thing is you have not taken into context the writer of Hebrews also. That being said it is also good to address what God called all his children as seen in Psalms 82:6 (verse 1 is a reference), and it being referenced yet again in 1 Corinthians 8:5 and as to what Jesus had said in John 10:34, 35.

 

  • Isaiah 44:6 - The scriptures shows that "His Redeemer" is a reference to Israel's Redeemer, you, Deserter, as a Trinitarian, show a total disregard to contextual facts. For it is known that the passage here is referring to Israel's redeemer who is Yahweh of Hosts their God. The irony here is you believe in 3 Gods, when the testimony of God (Book of Joel) himself in another verse says otherwise

 

  • Revelations 1:17 - The scriptures shows that the risen Jesus is the First and the Last because he, God's Word, is where the new creation of God begins, which is as clear as day when taking into account the Revelations of John. An even bigger problem that is posed to you Trinitarians is that your claim will be demanded an answer, but such ones like you will not say a word. At Revelation 1:1, we read that God gave this Revelation to Jesus and he communicated this Revelation to John through his angel, which leads to who, in question, then communicated with John? It is abundantly  clear that these title(s) refer to creation and Jesus is the Beginning of the new creation since he is the Firstborn out of the Dead (The first of the Firstfruits). Everything begins and ends with the Father's Word. Now, the Genesis act of creation was accomplished by means of His, God's, spoken Word and that is why we find He is the first and the last in the book of Isaiah. He is where the Genesis act of creation began and since He will judge the world through a man He has appointed, He is where it will also end. God the Father has created by means of His spoken Word and judges the world through His word at the end of the ages. God the Father will judge the world through him (Acts 17:31) and God the Father creates all things anew in him (Colossians 1:16-18; Revelation 21). God the Father now creates all things through the risen Christ, His Word become flesh. The new creation begins and ends at the Father's Word: the risen man, Jesus, who has been made Lord, who has been exalted.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11

Nowhere in Acts 5:3, 4 does it say by your claim that: The Holy Spirit is God -false

We clearly see what it says in the verse:

  • (3) But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? (4) While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

Nowhere in Romans 8:11 does it say, by your claim that the Holy Spirit is God, utterly false, for we can see the verse:

  • If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

The funny thing is, you are using verses from a man who has profess the foremost commandment, that alone speaks against the Trinity belief, moreover, this man, Paul, has affirmed the Law, that puts you in error, 100%.

What proves more fatal is the cross-references also, for that alone defeats your doctrine, Deserter.

But what, it would seem you have shot yourself on the foot with this response because previously, you had stated: The Bible says that God the father is God. You can't have 3 Gods if there is only 1, but it would seem you religiously worship 3 being in denial by also stating there is 1, that is being hypocritical to your own belief.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.

Oh the irony, you mentioned a verse that shattered your own doctrine, the very law that speaks of the Father being the only God, a law of which Jesus himself had quoted. Not to mention you also stated a verse that 100% disqualifies Jesus as being God for he acts as an in-between for God and a group of men to man kind, technically, you have defeated yourself with this response, and to add more fuel to the fire, for a man who claims to be a Jesus Defender, you have no idea of what Law I am speaking of, of which Jesus professed even as a child, you also mentioned a verse of which Paul made an affirmation of the Law,  you have no idea of what Jesus is regarding being an in between of 2 parties, you have no idea of what God's Law actually is that further provides a major blow to your own doctrine.

Either you are learning, or you are inflecting yourself, wounding yourself, in this sense, figuratively, religous seppuku (??).

Indeed, the only True God is the Father and no one else, not even this so called Holy Spirit Person, nor is it Jesus, for God is the only Father, in addition to that, even Jesus recognize the Father as God several times in the New Testament.

Perhaps next time, read the verse first and maybe make such a comment. Also as for Psalms 18:31 does not state Jesus is God. Anyone with a brain and some sense can read and see that this verse is regarding God the Father:

  • For who is God, but the LORD [YHWH]? And who is a rock, except our God?—

If you want to take it a step further, even in Hebrew, it further proves the one being mentioned is indeed the Father:

  • ????? ???? ????????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????????????

The funny thing the ALL CAPS is a dead giveaway too.

Moreover, we have the cross-references for this verse that solidifies this simply truth: Psalms 86:8, Isaiah 45:5, Deuteronomy. 32:31, 1 Samuel 2:2, and 2 Samuel 22:32-43.

Then again acknowledging the Father to be God, just as Paul and Jesus had, as did others, is very close, but no cigar because you are in total defense of a heresy you know to be false.

Open your eyes, Deserter.

It is people like you who is the very result of those, unaware, make fun of the bible:

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Such cannot be allowed to pass, therefore the truth has to be known, it MUST be known.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.

Yet you contradict yourself in your several of your responses.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us that's the way it is.

Yet when he speaks by means of His Word, you ignore it. Basic reading comprehension and biblical study by means of understanding and research further proves that the only God is the Father.

As for the other comment, Jehovah's Witnesses are not like other Christians, they are Restorationist Christians who are Non-Trinitarian, on the other side of the spectrum, for the Christians of this day and age are 100% mainstream (New Agers included) and do not mind shedding the blood of other Christians in cold bloodied brutality in order to protect their nation, the Christians tossed into the well is an example, and I believe I made mention to such regarding the White Hats of which the US mainstream Christians support, in addition, they like to use uninspired passages with the inspired to push their belief on others, unfortunately for you many, MANY people wised up, but for you, you accept and choose to be blind and continue to dwell in darkness, tripping over yourself and shambling in the dark like a mad man (like Bob the Builder, James White, Jay Smith, David Wood, etc.)

 

That being said, you have not proven anything in this regard, you have not proven that Jesus is God or that of the Spirit yet you claim the one God to be the Father, for it is true, the only God is the Father, according to the testimony of others.

Biblical Hermeneutics and the study and understanding of one's Christology will and always prevail over false truths and false teachers

 

As for your foolish claim

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LOL. You, sir are an idiot.

forged? added? Right, WHEN and by WHOM? 

DONT copy and paste, i know you hate that, and dont refer people to a website.

Come on, WHEN and WHO?

funny how not even a dozen verses in the Bible can convince you. Your response? Oh, those passages are forged or added.

And you are stupid to think that the EARLIER a document is, that automatically makes it TRUE.

you are a ridiculous and sad person.

The only foolish man that is here, is you, for if I was foolish, I would not be that knowledgeable of the scriptures and I would be ignorant of truth, but your silly insult is nothing more than a leaf in the breeze, nothing more, Deserter.

The fact that you are unaware of the forgeries shows, I would like to see you try and defend 1 John 5:7, or that of the Acts 8:37, John 8:1-11, Mark 16:9-20 and a list of other verses. Try as you may - you will fail.

I don't hate copy and paste, but the constant back to back copy and paste posts only shows you yield upon hat man has taught you, and not of God.

And no you have no convinced me, you claim Jesus is God when Jesus himself professed a law and he is an in-between for God and men, you claim the Holy Spirit is God, let alone a person, yet you fail to make the claim, and this Godhood claim when no one knows the day or the hour but God himself, in addition, you claim God became flesh when the Old Testament and the words of Job says otherwise. You cannot even convince a child with such heresy, how then will you teach to the nation? For such ones who want to know truth will not adhere to the nonsense that you are teaching, that is why your doctrine, the Trinity, is killing your own faith base when Christianity of the mainstream is on a rapid decline, to the point that even Islam is surpassing you, mind you, this excludes Christian minorities that have nothing to do with the mainstream. For you are declining in China, the UK, the US, the list goes on, for people are tired of your heresy and falsehood when they themselves look at what the bible really says.

I only made a mention to several uninspired text nowhere did I state ALL verses are forged, you are a fool to think of such because I made mention to this to everyone here before you crawled out of the crevice of which you came. There is well over a dozen verses that have been forged, FACT, there has been verses that has been changed, FACT, there has been verses that have been made up by man, FACT, and because of this people tend to stick to the oldest source, FACT. A Fact that has been proven here, is you are utterly unaware of this source of which the bible based upon and no we are not talking about God's Word, we are talking about something physical before the Bible itself came to be.

Example, Trinitarians believe that Jesus saved an Adulterous Woman, based off the passages as seen in John 8:1-11 (if you want to take is a step further John 7:53-8:11), however, this verses are not in the original source, they never were in there to begin with, someone very later on added these verses to make a complete continuation of chapter 8. For there is a reason as to why a majority of bibles have omitted Pericope Adulterae. You have a problem if you accept this to be true, yet cannot defend it, the same goes for the other verses in question, everyone knows about 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 and a number of other things, especially as to the inspired passages itself of which Trinitarians will twist in their favor, example, John 10:30, John 8:58 to name a few.

NOTE: The Greek manuscripts show fairly clear evidence that John 7:53—8:11 was not originally part of John’s Gospel.

It isn't stupidity, it is only stupid to those that dwell in falsehood, yet have the audacity to call themselves a Jesus defender, more of a joke if you ask me as well as hypocrisy. The reality is, God's Word is there, its in the oldest source, but to add on to God's Word, that is where the falsehood lies, and those who accept and believes it, such ones like you, will often defend it when the only source we have from back in the day ultimately crushes the belief of which you deem as true regarding specific verses, you have shown me to be in the right with the verses you posted, not realizing some of the verses in question are cited by you, that my friend, is stupidity and foolish.

Sad person? This coming from a man who made claims that there are 2 other Gods besides the Father then turn back to say only the Father is God? Very telling and quite most, evident. Like I say to everyone here, to the CSE, to those in Islam, to the Jews, to the Satanist, to the Anti-Religious, to the Lost ones, I speak the truth and will defend the truth and nothing but the truth, for I adhere strictly to scripture and what the bible says in addition to the understanding of one's Christology, mainly with those who follow what is true and what is not true.

 

I suggest you start opening your eyes, Deserter because you keep them shut, on purpose even. And spare insults, for you are making checks you cannot cash from the very beginning.

Also, "LOL" in caps? I am sure you are grown, such meaningless fortune cookie nonsense is unnecessary, save that for your buddies of your at work.

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You still haven't produced one simple scripture that states, Jesus is God?  Where is it??  Is that why you changed your stance that Jesus is Jehovah?  No scripture of that either. .....  Nor can you show one in Your Pagan Doctrines...  

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.

None of those state that Jesus is God.  Why are you lying?  Oh... I remember the Scripture on why you are lying.  "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son" (

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See how your true colors come out when you teach that Jesus is God?  You publicly denied the Father and the Son. You keep denying that Jesus is the Christ, that is why I say you are dying the second death.  Only those hurl into Gehenna begin to weep and gnash their teeth. Today, I am happy to report this prophecy has come true for you.  "Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,  and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be." (Matthew 13:40-42)

See that, the Son of Man sends his angels to collect you and because you have been pitched into the fiery furnace, your weeping and gnashing of teeth has begun.  You are being brought to Nothing.... "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thess 2:8)    

Jesus is not God nor is he ALL KNOWING as you claim.  According to Jesus' own teaching... he states, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)  Geez... claiming Jesus is All knowing has been exposed by by the spirit of his mouth, but I NEVER met an honest trinitarian... they all lie and twist in the same manner of their father who Jesus called the Father of the LIE.  You sure work hard in denying the Christ.

 

 

 

 

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WHen trinitarians can’t show a scripture of three separate persons make up one God, they then switch to Modalism, saying “Jesus is God”. The trinity is like a three legged stool. Remove one leg and the trinity comes tumbling down.

So they hurl insults and accusations. When the teaching of the demons get expose, they tend to taunt, scream, and hurl accusations. But very soon they will be abyssed. So now let’s carry on to John 1:1c.

Other translations:

1808: “and the Word was a god” – Thomas Belsham The New Testament

1822: “and the Word was a god” – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

1829: “and the Word was a god” – The Monotessaron;

1863: “and the Word was a god” – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

1864: “and a god was the Word” – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)

1867: “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God” – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible

1879: “and the Word was a god” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)

1885: “and the Word was a god” – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

1911: “and the Word was a god” – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)

1935: “and the Word was divine” – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago

1955: “so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

1956: “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity” – The Wuest Expanded Translation[16]

1958: “and the Word was a god” – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed” (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);

1970, 1989: “…and what God was, the Word was” – The Revised English Bible
1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

1975: “and the Word was a god” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

1978: “and godlike sort was the Logos” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin

2017: “In the origin there was the Logos, and the Logos was present with GOD, and the Logos was god;” – The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart.[18]

John 1:1c is rendered in the feminine sense relating to Christ divinity. Words like Deity, Divine, Wisdom, Beginning are all feminine nouns that describe Christ’s Divinity as a Divine Creation.   To request a free home Bible Study click 

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.

Bible scholars proclaim that theos can only be rendered in the Masculine Sense but is that 'the truth"??

Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god

Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

Jesus admitted of coming from the 'gods' which the Word of God was sanctified and came.   Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say you of him, whom the Father has sanctified, and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:34-36)     

 

 

 

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 2:32 AM, Brother Rando said:

You still haven't produced one simple scripture that states, Jesus is God?  Where is it??  Is that why you changed your stance that Jesus is Jehovah?  No scripture of that either. .....  Nor can you show one in Your Pagan Doctrines...  

 

Do you want those particular words "Jesus is God" ? You won't find them. Nor will you find "computer" or "Jehovahs Witnesses".

 

I have shown time and time again that Jesus claimed to be God, but you are so brainwashed by your cult you cannot refute those passages and instead simply quote other passages that you think support your theory.

 

I have started another thread, but i see you have not bothered to go there.

I have NEVER changed my stance that Jesus is Jehovah God.

 

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None of those state that Jesus is God.  Why are you lying?  Oh... I remember the Scripture on why you are lying.  "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son" (

    Hello guest!
)

 

Oh, my ignorant, idiotic friend. I never said those passages state that Jesus is God, you fool.

 

Quote

 

See how your true colors come out when you teach that Jesus is God?  You publicly denied the Father and the Son. You keep denying that Jesus is the Christ, that is why I say you are dying the second death.  Only those hurl into Gehenna begin to weep and gnash their teeth. Today, I am happy to report this prophecy has come true for you.  "Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness,  and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be." (Matthew 13:40-42)

 

 

"true colors" ? blah blah blah.

Quote

 

See that, the Son of Man sends his angels to collect you and because you have been pitched into the fiery furnace, your weeping and gnashing of teeth has begun.  You are being brought to Nothing.... "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thess 2:8)    

But you JW's dont believe in a fiery furnace! LOL.

Thanks for condemning me to a place you think does not exist!

 

Quote

 

Jesus is not God nor is he ALL KNOWING as you claim.  According to Jesus' own teaching... he states, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)  Geez... claiming Jesus is All knowing has been exposed by by the spirit of his mouth, but I NEVER met an honest trinitarian... they all lie and twist in the same manner of their father who Jesus called the Father of the LIE.  You sure work hard in denying the Christ.

 

You can keep repeating your mantra "Jesus is not God" as much as you like. It does not make it true.

 

Like i have said, i have started another thread with 4 verses that support my position, so lets discuss those 4 passages.

 

You have never met an honest trinitarian?

 

Well, i have never met an honest JW. The watchotwer has proven themselves to be dishonest, liars and as a leading Greek scholar says "diabolical deceivers", so lets not play the honesty claim.

 

I have told you why i dont address ALL your points.

 

If you want to pick ONE verse that you think supports your position, present it and lets discuss it.  ONE verse.

 

I know the standard, robotic ones JW's use and i can address each and every one. 

 

But, ONE verses per comment.

 

If you dare.

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On 6/26/2018 at 2:04 AM, Space Merchant said:

He called you such because you are speaking of slander, you incite Christian Infighting (a big problem with the West), you bring

Hang on, one thing at a time.

 

slander?

 

Please be more specific. WHO have i slandered? Please quote.

Quote

 

forth a doctrine that it's even biblical, you use the information from a Wiccan to spread interfaith hate, you are an advocate of breaking God's Laws which is the case with the mainstream, let alone adhering to false ones, and the list goes on. 

 

Like i said to your buddy, you can chant your mantra about the trinity as much as you want. Does not make it true.

 

Go to my new thread and address the 4 passages i mentioned.

But, you won't. I know.

wiccan? LOL. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

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We are all indeed sinners, but there is a clear line between those who know they are imperfect vs. those who are imperfect, but sin openly and being ignorant of it.

Yes, those who recognize they are sinners and are born again have their sins blotted out. They are STILL sinners and still sin, though.

 

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There is no question that HE, is the only God, the only one, the very one that all young Jews profess as a child and read the Old Testament about, this includes Jesus.

Ah, the shema. Yes, i believe the shema too.

 

Remember too, BTW: that Jesus is called "Everlasting Father".

 

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Very true, however your other posts tend to be very contradicting to this response.

  • John 8:58 - This verse does not prove Jesus is God for if you recognize what the sons of the Devil were doing verses before and even chapters in what they wanted to do to Jesus. Moreover, I AM (ego eimi) does not prove anything, for not only it is a common Greek saying, Jesus was only making acknowledgement that he pre-existed before Abraham, no mention of him being El Shaddai, Yahweh/Jehovah. This has already been covered here

 

It sure does fit the bill. Moses asked God what His name was. Jesus said it was ego eimi. Jesus used the SAME name.

please DONT tell me to go to another thread. keep everything in this one please.

 

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  • John 1:1 - This verse speaks of the Genesis Act of Creation, hence verses 3-6 and the mention John the Baptist several

That's NOT what the text says. It says Jesus created ALL things. It does NOT say Jesus created ALL things in the Genesis Act of Creation.

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  •  
  • verses onward. The Word if from God because it is His spoken Word, the Word became flesh because Jesus was the one who became a man, the Word is God because we clearly see that God himself had said the following about the coming

Yes, and Jesus is the Word.

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  •  
  •  
  • prophet in Deuteronomy 18:18, also the very one mentioned in Isaiah (also scroll of Isaiah as seen in Luke 4). God had said that he will raise up for them a prophet, one that is like their brothers (Jews). he continues to say that He  will put His words in his mouth, and this prophet will speak to them all that He will command of this prophet. Therefore we know the Word is God because the Word is of God, Jesus, who is the prophet, is the Word because he speaks God's Word, and from the very beginning the Word, that originated from God spoke everything into existence. Further evidence we also have is the Tanakh/Old Testament (they focused specifically on the Torah) of which the Samartians strictly follow, for they lived apart from the Jews and their area was Mount Gerizim, for they awaited this Prophet who speaks God's Word, and we see this unfold in John chapter 4 when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan Woman at the Well of Jacob, despite how Samaritans and Jews view each other, but for Jesus, he ha the utmost respect for the Samaritans and didn't go bashing their views, as you are doing, for Jesus set an example for us to follow. It was here that Jesus revealed himself to be the Messiah, the one sent by God, and clearly we see the reaction of the woman, and eventually the Samaritan people. God is the Word, the Word is of God.

 

Amen, we may know the Word is God. Jesus is the Word.

 

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  • John 20:28 - Quoting from my article, the facts that come straight from the very pages of the scriptures in the Bible shows us that Thomas was confessing what Jesus had taught him - to see Jesus is to see the Father (John 14:10-11; 12:44-45). That human flesh named Jesus declares the Father (John 1:18). In fact, the entire point of the Gospel of John is to illustrate how the man Jesus made God the Father knownSince there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is put before us, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which had the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God. This can be found here

 

Again, DONT direct me to another thread or link, please.

 

So, you are saying that Thomas merely believed what Jesus taught. So Jesus taught that He was God. Yes, to see Jesus IS to see the Father because Jesus is God and the Father is God.

Thomas addresses Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God’, thus recognizing Jesus as Jehovah God the Son. Jesus commended Thomas on his belated acknowledgement of Jesus as God.

Now, what is the Jewish penalty for blasphemy? Stoning to death. So, If Jesus is not God, this statement should of resulted in a stoning.

So, did Jesus pick up stones? No, Jesus commended Thomas for believing that Jesus was both Lord and God.

 

Thomas addresses Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God’, thus recognizing Jesus as Jehovah God the Son. Jesus commended Thomas on his belated acknowledgement of Jesus as God.


Thomas wasn’t calling Jesus ‘a god’; he was calling Jesus his Lord and his God. If Jesus was not Almighty God, He would have corrected Thomas by saying something like, ‘No, I am just a god, a lesser god. Jehovah is the only true God. You must not put me in Jehovah’s place. Only Jehovah may be called my Lord and my God.’ But Jesus said no such nonsense. He commended Thomas for recognizing Him as the true God. If Thomas said ‘My Lord and my God’ as an emotional exclamation of astonishment, as
 

 

it is such a shame you refuse to read my PDFs.

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On 6/22/2018 at 8:42 PM, Jesus.defender said:

No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him.

They thought they knew what he was saying, but evidently they didn't. Because Jesus immediately refuted such thoughts:

John 5: 18-24 This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

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19  Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.
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For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.
20  For the Father has affection for the Son
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and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.
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21  For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive,
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so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
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22  For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,
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23  so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
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24  Most truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes the One who sent me has everlasting life".

I cannot help but see that Jesus is talking about himself, and a separate person; his father.

John 10:30 -36 ( living Bible)

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Then again the Jewish leaders picked up stones to kill him.

32 Jesus said, “At God’s direction I have done many a miracle to help the people. For which one are you killing me?”

33 They replied, “Not for any good work, but for blasphemy; you, a mere man, have declared yourself to be God.”

34-36 In your own Law it says that men are gods!” he replied. “So if the Scripture, which cannot be untrue, speaks of those as gods to whom the message of God came, do you call it blasphemy when the one sanctified and sent into the world by the Father says, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Jesus took this opportunity to clarify he is NOT God, but that God is his father

 

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5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Hang on, one thing at a time.

slander?

Please be more specific. WHO have i slandered? Please quote.

Perhaps look at what you started with before this discussion came into play. In addtion to that, you boast about Jesus being God when he is clearly not.

Jesus never claimed to be God, never considered to be or take plunder of God (according to Paul), and Jesus was a born Jew of the Law, who professed his Father is his God.

If you have forgotten, when Jesus was crucified he said this: Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me)

Those who saw this even recognized what he was saying, let alone who Jesus was, a few verses later, Certainly this was God’s Son.

g

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Like i said to your buddy, you can chant your mantra about the trinity as much as you want. Does not make it true.

Go to my new thread and address the 4 passages i mentioned.

But, you won't. I know.

wiccan? LOL. You don't know what you are talking about.

I have gone to your threads it what I see is a one-sided warzone in combination with verses of which you bring up, of which you bare no understanding of and apply man man understanding and exegesis to fit your belief of a Triune God.

Other that that, a majority of threads I do check, I choose to comment if need be, and it will always be the same, one denying what is true and what is deemed false.

I stated Wiccan because the biggest voices of JW opponents consist of pangans, Trinitarians, and atheists. The Wicca/Wiccans is a pagan practice, the irony is, such ones, like yourself, still follow these people because they share the same hate as you do.

That is funny though, someone such as yourself considers what is being said as a mere mantra, further proves my point, that Trinitarians lack biblical hermeneutics.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Yes, those who recognize they are sinners and are born again have their sins blotted out. They are STILL sinners and still sin, though.

Which begs to question, do you even know what it means to be Born Again or the very origins of Baptism itself?

John the Baptist didn't just baptize people for nothing, there is a deep history as to why he does it, in addition to all that is regarding repentance.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

That's NOT what the text says. It says Jesus created ALL things. It does NOT say Jesus created ALL things in the Genesis Act of Creation.

You may want to re-check that passage regarding John's Introductory. The response of yours just further proves, you lack knowledge of what the Bible says.

What I say is indeed true and it is fact: John 1:1 - This verse speaks of the Genesis Act of Creation, hence verses 3-6 and the mention John the Baptist several

  • (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) He was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In him was life, and the life was the light of men. (5) The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

We know in the very beginning God created everything and he created everything by means of this one, his Son, for all that God had made is done through His Son, the very reason why Jesus himself marveled at what his Father had done, for God the Father took delight in His Son, as if Proverbs can make that any clearer.

An honest exploration of the Word in John 1:1 is the Word proclaimed through Jesus in his ministry as seen in the four gospel accounts and the Word he proclaimed was the proclamation of God the Father Himself, "the Word was God." The funny thing is you missed want the Torah even states as seen in Deuteronomy 18:18.

He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father in terms of the things Jesus did. God is Life (for God is the Living God) and Jesus fully expressed that Life in the very words he spoke and the works he did, again, God put HIS Word in this Prophet's mouth, the very Word of which THIS Prophet speaks (Deuteronomy 18:18 once again, Deserter).

God is Truth and Jesus fully expressed that Truth by everything he had said and everything he had done. God is Light and Jesus fully expressed the Light of the Father in all the words he spoken and works he did in the name of his God, hence why Jesus, who proclaims the Father, is also called the Light. God is Love and the flesh, the man, named Jesus fully expressed the Father's Love, the same man who had been crucified for your sins. The Word of God was something Jesus always kept. The Word became flesh, that is, the man named Jesus. Jesus came so that we might know the Father and Jesus fully expressed the Father in all the things he did because he always kept His Father's Word (His Spoken Word). Jesus' words and works were not his own but the Father's, for Jesus does and always had done the Will of His Father. The Word is God for Jesus had proclaimed it, in addition to why he is called the Word because he was the one to Speak what came from God and did not do this on his own originality, but everything done and said in the name of his God and Father.

  • (6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. (7) He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. (8) He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. (9) The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (10) He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

It is very obvious that John the Baptist was not alive, didn't even exist during the Genesis Act of Creation. Trinitarians will like to point out the first several verses, but when they get from verse 3 and onward, they shy away pretty quickly because the mention of John when they want to stick to the very beginning, let alone any mention of Houtos and Autos. We know Jesus is not only the Light because of His Father, but Jesus is also the Light of men, for he came into this world that was made through him. Apostle Paul also makes this very clear also.

Nowhere in chapter 1 of John stated that Jesus made everything, for it it had, it would contradict many, many things. For we clearly see that God made everything through him, by means of him, which is also stated many times in scripture, to think otherwise is being hypocritical.

  • (11) He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. (12) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This one is pretty evident, for it is informing us in regards to Jesus' time on earth and how the people reacted to what he had to say, some who believed and have been positive with him, and on the other side of the spectrum, those who were clearly against him, were very negative towards him, even wanting him dead. I really need not say much of this because this is very obvious.

  • (14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (15) (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)

We know this prophet to be Jesus, the very man who speaks God's Word, for indeed the Word is God the Word who proclaims the Word is the flesh, Jesus, and if we are to apply Jewish Law (Law of the Jews) Jesus is technically godlike/a god pertaining to what God the Father had said regarding his Sons, in addition to those on earth, as well as His only-begotten, I believe I made mention of this before prior to you going coo-coo for Jehovah's Witnesses.

Therefore, what I say is truth, the very reason why Trinitarians do not read in between verses in John Chapter 1 is very, very evident, this goes for the manuscript cherry picking a couple of verses down the line.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Yes, and Jesus is the Word.

Seems you are learning, however you have yep to grasp what is being said. The very reason Trinitarians do not speak as much of God's Spoken Word, otherwise it would make them look as though they believe in 4 Gods.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Amen, we may know the Word is God. Jesus is the Word.

As I said, you have yet to understand.

For God's Spoken Word is of God. The flesh who proclaims the Father speaks God's Word, hence as to why Jesus is called the Word of God. That is why I bring up Deuteronomy 18:18, there is other verses I left out on purpose for a reason because Trinitarians fail to make acknowledgement of what is seen in the Torah because it would backfire on them. Unlike your people, I do not shy away from what is true.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Again, DONT direct me to another thread or link, please.

Unfortunately I have to because you keep spouting the same thing over and over again, and such a thing I had address, and I even provide what the bible speaks of to further my point. You do not see past John 10:30, John 1:1 or John 20:28 for context, you accept As Is because it benefits your belief, for truth causes your belief to scatter like a piece of ice, smashed on to solid pavement.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

So, you are saying that Thomas merely believed what Jesus taught. So Jesus taught that He was God. Yes, to see Jesus IS to see the Father because Jesus is God and the Father is God.

Clearly you do not understand what Thomas was stating at all, the very reason why the whole seeing is believing was even the thing, you clearly ignore what was said prior to Jesus meeting with Thomas because it only paints you as a lair.

The very reason I linked the my own thread by means of biblical hermeneutics.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Thomas addresses Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God’, thus recognizing Jesus as Jehovah God the Son. Jesus commended Thomas on his belated acknowledgement of Jesus as God.

No. Thomas said what he said because he did not believe, he was not present when Jesus had risen and roamed about and even when the Disciples told him, he was still in disbelief, only when Jesus appeared, he understood clearly of what Jesus had taught him, if you have forgotten, Thomas indeed followed Jesus before he was killed, he was also present when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life and was very aware of what Mary had said.

Ah and yes, Jesus is indeed the Son of the Most High, and no Jesus didn't command Thomas, we see what Jesus had said the following verse. What part of Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe, did you not understand?

We later see in the next verse Jesus performing more signs for his followers of which is is not known and or written in the scroll, this is why John 21:25 says hat it says.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now, what is the Jewish penalty for blasphemy? Stoning to death. So, If Jesus is not God, this statement should of resulted in a stoning.

You do realize what Jesus called those who are clearly influenced by Satan, do you? You also fail to read further on as to what Jesus himself had said.

7 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

So, did Jesus pick up stones? No, Jesus commended Thomas for believing that Jesus was both Lord and God.

You just said before God is the Father and that Jesus is God's Son - you tend to contradict yourself, that is common, for even the most lost among the Trinitarian Koopa Troop. And No, Jesus, especially in that state and indoors, was unable to pick up any stone, for if you read the Bible, you would realize that the Disciples came first and Jesus appeared out of nowhere before them at Thomas' dwelling.

If Thomas indeed believed Jesus is God he would have said something when Mary even stated Jesus is God's Son. Thomas didn't believe that the Christ had risen and for Jesus to appear, having Thomas examine the wounds up close, now coming to the realization that His Lord had indeed risen and that what Jesus had said regarding the Father, was indeed true, the very reason why he said My Lord and my God, if you want to go full blown out original text, the Lord of me and the God of me.

The funny thing though, several verses back, we have Jesus calming he has a God, who is his Father prior to meeting with Thomas.

7 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Thomas wasn’t calling Jesus ‘a god’; he was calling Jesus his Lord and his God. If Jesus was not Almighty God, He would have corrected Thomas by saying something like, ‘No, I am just a god, a lesser god. Jehovah is the only true God. You must not put me in Jehovah’s place. Only Jehovah may be called my Lord and my God.’ But Jesus said no such nonsense. He commended Thomas for recognizing Him as the true God. If Thomas said ‘My Lord and my God’ as an emotional exclamation of astonishment, as

No he was not saying "a god", now you are just evading. Your biggest problem you have to address now is you claim that Jesus is being called here, a few verses back, Jesus claimed to have a God, that is, the Father, fact. You have just proven here you belief in more than one God.

 

Jesus said to her [Mary], “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Clearly, Thomas was not present. Where was he? Chillin' at his dwellings, only to later be met with the other disciples, who had already known about the risen Christ, and when he was told about the situation, he stated he does not and never will believe it, then suddenly the man himself, appears out of nowhere in their midst, despite the doors being locked and not even opened up, out of the blue and calm he tells them may you have peace. The disciples already knew for it was no surprise, but this indeed surprised Thomas, would else would have surprised Thomas?

Indeed Yahweh is the true God he is Lord, Jesus is Lord, Abraham is Lord, David is Lord, the list goes on, but the only one is above all, even above Jesus, is God the Father.

Of course Thomas was in awe and in shock, he didn't believe that Jesus had risen - Seeing is Believing and happy is the one who sees and believes.

That being said, everything and anything I have stated on my thread regarding that ONE verse, you cannot refute at all, which is seen by the obvious evading by throwing in the a god or godlike verses when the subject of the matter is My God.

I would also like to address that Jesus had called the Father His God several times in the Bible.

My Lord and My God! Thomas finally believes, for he now sees and takes into account what Jesus had taught plain and simple.

7 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I am going to start more precise threads on the main passages that JW's use to imply that Jesus is not God.

It is not Jehovah's Witnesses you have to worry about. Your biggest concern is the majority of those who are not for the Trinity and its falsehood and its clear tampering of the Bible. You can speak ill all day about others, but there is enough proof to paint you as false.

No man is going to believe Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit, or the mysterious forth person that some of you guys allude to, therefore, such things must be spoken against and refuted.

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23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Perhaps look at what you started with before this discussion came into play. In addtion to that, you boast about Jesus being God when he is clearly not.

 

That is not slander. He CLEARLY is.

 

23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Jesus never claimed to be God, never considered to be or take plunder of God (according to Paul), and Jesus was a born Jew of the Law, who professed his Father is his God.

 

Yes He did and i showed you the references. But you say those references have been corrupted or added, but you cant PROVE that excuse.

 

23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

If you have forgotten, when Jesus was crucified he said this: Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me)

Check out my other postings, Of course Jesus WHILST ON EARTH had a God. Would you expect Him to be an ATHEIST?! LOL.

 

23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

 

Those who saw this even recognized what he was saying, let alone who Jesus was, a few verses later, Certainly this was God’s Son.

 

Of course Jesus was Gods' son. That doesn't mean He was not also God the son.

 

23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I have gone to your threads it what I see is a one-sided warzone in combination with verses of which you bring up, of which you bare no understanding of and apply man man understanding and exegesis to fit your belief of a Triune God.

If you are not willing to discuss them one at a time or reject them or ignore them, i will no longer bother with you.

You are deceitful, devious, brainwashed and ignorant.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

They thought they knew what he was saying, but evidently they didn't. Because Jesus immediately refuted such thoughts:

John 5: 18-24 This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

    Hello guest!
19  Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.
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For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.
20  For the Father has affection for the Son
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and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.
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21  For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive,
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so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants to.
    Hello guest!
22  For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,
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23  so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
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24  Most truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes the One who sent me has everlasting life".

I cannot help but see that Jesus is talking about himself, and a separate person; his father.

 

Yes, WHILST ON EARTH, Jesus DID has a God the father. Would you expect Him to be an atheist? That doesnt mean He is not inferior to God the father. I know what passage you will bring up and i already have a refutation for that. Also, It does not stop Jesus from being God the son.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

 

 

John 10:30 -36 ( living Bible)

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 Then again the Jewish leaders picked up stones to kill him.

32 Jesus said, “At God’s direction I have done many a miracle to help the people. For which one are you killing me?”

33 They replied, “Not for any good work, but for blasphemy; you, a mere man, have declared yourself to be God.”

34-36 In your own Law it says that men are gods!” he replied. “So if the Scripture, which cannot be untrue, speaks of those as gods to whom the message of God came, do you call it blasphemy when the one sanctified and sent into the world by the Father says, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Jesus took this opportunity to clarify he is NOT God, but that God is his father

 

Terrible translation, my friend. 

Jesus did NOT claim He wasn't God.

 

The key passage is "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

 

The key word is "your".

And notice the spelling of god. "god". not "God". and, it DOES make a difference.

 

Thank you for the polite and nice reply. I appreciate it.

 

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11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

That is not slander. He CLEARLY is.

Clearly you are very dense on what is said.

11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Yes He did and i showed you the references. But you say those references have been corrupted or added, but you cant PROVE that excuse.

Jesus never has claimed to be God at all, nor has he said anything to this regard, and like I said, his position between God and men, the very fact that Jesus professed the law that is a clear acknowledgment of the one who professes has a God, disproves everything and anything you say.

I have proved it, and I can do it again, but you will make the same response over and over, for this is common among you Trinitarians, for when proven wrong, you keep going, like a broken record, that is why I compared you to Bob The Builder, for when proven wrong, you resort to all the mental gymnastics and silliness to evade what is being asked and or push a claim that is 100% false.

Jesus never claimed to be God, Jesus never referred to himself as God, Jesus never took plunder to or to be regarded as God.

I doubt you can find any verse that we see Jesus verbally claiming he is God or that he is the Father, for everything when put to the test and or challenged, Jesus refers to himself as the Messiah, the one who has been sent by the Father, and or that he is God's Son.

The sad reality is, even demons know who Jesus is, and clearly demons cannot be in the presents of God regardless, but knowing that Jesus is sent by the Father, you can see how Jesus dealt with them, even shutting them up.

That being said you've yet to prove anything, but you rely on the butchered works of others to push your claim anyways, for it is evident you cannot express anything on your own expect deceitfulness and hatred.

11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Check out my other postings, Of course Jesus WHILST ON EARTH had a God. Would you expect Him to be an ATHEIST?! LOL.

The weak atheist joke is very stale. Jesus as a child was born into the law and the law requires that he learned about His God who is his Father, the very reasons why Jesus said what he said in Mark 12:28-34 when he spoke with the scribes. Jesus always quotes what is written because anything that is written is of the law, but seeing what you have stated before, you do not believe in anything that is written or what Jesus said is written, hence what you posed days ago.

Indeed, Jesus did have a God and that God is his Father, the one who abides in him and does the works, and yet you call Jesus God when there is only one, and that one God is the Father - not Jesus.

That is why we are encouraged, even told in scripture to thank God, the Father for our Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:3), and it does not stop only at this verse, for Paul was quite explicit on what he had written to the churches and its congregation.

 

God's own testimony further proves that no one is equal to him or above him, for he is the only God (Joel 2:27 along with CR)

You are grown, no need for this LOL all caps nonsense.

11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Of course Jesus was Gods' son. That doesn't mean He was not also God the son.

According to the verse that comes out of the bible, Jesus is indeed God's Son. We find this passage of which I had quoted in the following gospel account.

  • Matthew 27:54 -  When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

references being Mark 15:39 and Luke 23:47.

The verses say it clearly, as well as explicitly over and over of who Jesus truly is, the Son of God. To make the claim that Jesus is God and seeing him cry out to His God is absurd. Trinitarians will see this passage as some scooby-doo mystery nonsense, but the Bible makes it very clear. Deserter, you make it very obvious that you are keeping your eyes closed, and your so called exegesis has nothing to show for it.

11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

If you are not willing to discuss them one at a time or reject them or ignore them, i will no longer bother with you.

You are deceitful, devious, brainwashed and ignorant.

I am willing, but I make a response to every point you make, if you want to keep it focused on one thing, stop addressing multiple things at once.

You call me deceitful? That is cute. For last I check, you believe that God can die, when the Bible says God is incorruptible. You believe Jesus to be God when Jesus says he is the Son. You believe Thomas sees Jesus as God, when we know of Thomas' situation and the very fact he was with Mary on the day Lazarus was brought back to life, witnessing Mary saying the following: She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”, read up on John chapter 11. You believe the Holy Spirit to be God but the Spirit is not even a Person, you also commit a gross error when you believe that this so called person of yours was present to people like Mary, Zechariah, and several others. You believe in a 4th God also, the Spoken Word, but fall on your back and roll around like a madman ranting about a Triune God, when the reality is, there is only one God and that is the Father. You push verses out of context to fit your belief, yet any man or woman can see, with context to the passage of the truth and nothing but the truth. You also bring forth ignorance, because you do not know what the Bible says and apply weak and silly exegesis as well as man made understanding into the verses of which you put out of context.

As for brainwashing: Jesus.Defender ".... The Father is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God" and according to the Trinity, the Spoken Word is also God. You speak of 3 and allude to a fourth, but go back and contradict yourself and say only the Father is God, you are zig zagging even your own claims, friend. At this rate, you make the late cult of Attis members from ancient Asia Minor times look like heroes - and that is not a good thing.

Nothing more than a Deserter, and

    Hello guest!
, just like him, you are slandering left and right that will make even the most experience one cringe at your errors.

With that being said, you have not proven anything, the only thing you have proven is the falsehood of the Trinitarian belief, the same goes for your modalistic counterparts.

Also, @Anna is correct on what she had said. You only deem her as wrong because what she had said has already made you beneath that of a fool who does not know what he is talking - a worm beneath notice, as they say.

The only deceit, brainwash ignorant tom foolery that is being expressed is only by you, as for the other person @Brother Rando, you only say such to him because of his faith and the group he follows. He is right, but what you only see his the name of his group and nothing more, hence your response. The irony he, all that he had said is of the bible, but you fail to see that because like I said, you keep your eyes shut on what the bible teaches.

 

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11 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Yes, WHILST ON EARTH, Jesus DID has a God the father. Would you expect Him to be an atheist? That doesnt mean He is not inferior to God the father. I know what passage you will bring up and i already have a refutation for that. Also, It does not stop Jesus from being God the son.

I think the biggest problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe Jesus and God are two separate beings, somehow designate Jesus to a low position. But that is not the case at all. I will not deny that Jesus (when not in human form) is god-like. A powerful spiritual being like God. This position allows perfectly for a son father relationship. The father was first and the son was second. Just like it is with humans who have a family, with the father being the head, so it is with the spiritual heavenly family also. God is the head over all the other spiritual beings including his only begotten son, who he created exclusively by himself before anything else was created. Indeed a very lofty and special position for Jesus. All the other spiritual beings were also called sons of God, as are even humans, but only Jesus had a unique beginning, that being personally created by his father. The point is he had a beginning, whereas God did not. Also Jesus is able to think and act independently of God. Jesus is god, or if you like, even god the son. But he is not Almighty God. He is not one half of a Siamese twin nor clone with Almighty God. I do not see the Bible teaching that. God did not disembody himself and send one part, the "Jesus" part, to the earth. I do not see the Bible teaching that either. What I do see the Bible teaching is that, at great pain to himself, he sent his most precious son to the earth, to become a human, so that he could buy back what Adam and Eve lost. Because Jesus is able to act and think independently of God, the sacrifice had validity. If Jesus was God, then how would the sacrifice even work? It would make no sense at all....

 

 

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1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

@Anna Unfortunately, this Trinitarian, Jesus Deserter, is very dense and clearly unable to adhere to what the bible really says.

Well, he/she interprets it the way he/she wants to, because for some reason he/she thinks it's better for God to be in three joined pieces, rather than a whole.

I find that when someone has this conviction, then there is actually no point of arguing. Only persons who are open minded admit that the teaching of the trinity makes no sense.....

It is interesting to see that if a person has no prior bias (no prior knowledge of the Bible or Christian religions) and they read all of the Hebrew scriptures, they naturally conclude that God and Jesus are two separate beings. 

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3 hours ago, Anna said:
  13 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Yes, WHILST ON EARTH, Jesus DID has a God the father. Would you expect Him to be an atheist? That doesnt mean He is not inferior to God the father. I know what passage you will bring up and i already have a refutation for that. Also, It does not stop Jesus from being God the son.

I find this quote interesting. I wanted to know why he changed his view from Jesus being God the Son to "Jesus is Jehovah" and he stated he never changed.  According to the trinity doctrines one person is never the other.   But I am alone in witnessing that Jesus is "the Christ, the son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16)  The same ones that scream "JESUS is GOD" don't give witness about Jesus being the Christ. I often ask the householder what trinity doctrine proclaims Jesus  being the Christ? 

Most tell me to leave and so my witness about Jesus Christ is withdrawn from the household.  We don't force salvation on anyone.  But I ask them,  Was Peter the first Pope?  Most, not all, say Yes!   Then I ask them, "Is the Pope Infallible?"   They have all stated 100% YES.

I then give in to them.  And nod my head, you know what I think, you are probably right.  So let's take a look at what Peter stated many years AFTER Jesus was Resurrected to Heaven.  Here....  tell me what you think.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (

    Hello guest!
)   Of course, they tell me they NEVER SEEN THIS SCRIPTURE. NEVER......

I then ask, "If Jesus is God, then WHO is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?"   A few ask me to come in.  Most, shout that I don't believe in Jesus Christ!  Weird isn't it?  I'm the only one sharing this verse with them about our Lord Jesus Christ and the Catholic Priests do not.  To the ones who are humble, when I return 99% never open their door ever again.

To the few who do.  I ask again.  "If Jesus is God, then WHO is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?"   Nobody has even said the Trinity, or that Jesus is God.  Never, not after reading what Peter wrote.  Some have even told me Jehovah?  Yahweh?  

Let's see what the bible states.  Here, can you read this scripture for me?  “That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” (

    Hello guest!
)

Wanna know a secret?  The trinity doctrine never states, "Jesus is God".   Jesus is ABSENT from the trinity doctrine.  It certainly never states that "Jesus is God the Son". 

Wanna know another secret??  Neither does the Bible... ANY BIBLE     The phrase "Jesus is God"  OR  "Jesus is God the SON" is ABSENT.  Matter of fact, where is our Lord Jesus Christ in the trinity doctrine?  And they call me brainwashed??  

How is it that the Son is now the Father??  When the trinity doctrine claims the Son is NOT the Father....  oh well.... When I walk away from that household, the Angel of Salvation comes with me.  The Angel who pardons sins also grants salvation.... this Angel is the ego' eimi    "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23 KJV) 

    Hello guest!

All of a sudden, the same people who claim the Pope and the KJV is infallible, choose not to believe?   "So, then, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" (

    Hello guest!
)

 

 

 

 

 

trinity.png

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On 6/28/2018 at 7:43 AM, Anna said:

I think the biggest problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe Jesus and God are two separate beings,

 

Hang on, Christians also believe this.

 

On 6/28/2018 at 7:43 AM, Anna said:

 

somehow designate Jesus to a low position. But that is not the case at all. I will not deny that Jesus (when not in human form) is god-like.

Nope, He was still God, but He was also MAN. 

 

On 6/28/2018 at 7:43 AM, Anna said:

A powerful spiritual being like God. This position allows perfectly for a son father relationship. The father was first and the son was second. Just like it is with humans who have a family, with the father being the head, so it is with the spiritual heavenly family also. God is the head over all the other spiritual beings including his only begotten son, who he created exclusively by himself before anything else was created. Indeed a very lofty and special position for Jesus. All the other spiritual beings were also called sons of God, as are even humans, but only Jesus had a unique beginning, that being personally created by his father. The point is he had a beginning, whereas God did not. Also Jesus is able to think and act independently of God. Jesus is god, or if you like, even god the son. But he is not Almighty God. He is not one half of a Siamese twin nor clone with Almighty God. I do not see the Bible teaching that. God did not disembody himself and send one part, the "Jesus" part, to the earth. I do not see the Bible teaching that either. What I do see the Bible teaching is that, at great pain to himself, he sent his most precious son to the earth, to become a human, so that he could buy back what Adam and Eve lost. Because Jesus is able to act and think independently of God, the sacrifice had validity. If Jesus was God, then how would the sacrifice even work? It would make no sense at all....

"f Jesus was God, then how would the sacrifice even work? It would make no sense at all...."

 

Because God only is sinless and ONLY a sinless sacrifice would work

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2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Because God only is sinless and ONLY a sinless sacrifice would work

What makes you think Jesus wasn't sinless?

 

2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:
On 6/27/2018 at 3:43 PM, Anna said:

I think the biggest problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe Jesus and God are two separate beings,

 

Hang on, Christians also believe this.

Attempts have been made to define the trinity, but they sound so alienated from what the Bible says, it's almost sounds like trying define a multiple personality disorder. In fact reading some explanations of what the trinity is supposed to mean really puts my brain in a pretzel.

Here is one: " What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because he regards the Son as a “You,” even though he regards himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being”  and " The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being". I have no idea how someone could have come up with something like that from reading the Bible.

I think I would rather go and solve abstract algebra than attempt to logically understand this gobbledygook....

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3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Nope, He was still God, but He was also MAN. 

What scripture teaches that?  The Scripture I found says the Opposite...

"God is not a man" (Numbers 23:19 KJV)   

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Hang on, Christians also believe this.

 

You sure about that? The comments you make at times seem to contradict each other, over and over again.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Nope, He was still God, but He was also MAN. 

 

God is not a man, it says that several times in the Old Testament (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) for the molder is not like his mold (Isaiah 45:9, Romans 9:20), moreover, even Job himself even stated God is not like us men (Job 9:32-34). God is also incorruptible, cannot succumb to what us humans succumb to, one of them being death, for God's nature is incorruptibility (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23), he cannot die nor taste death (Habakkuk 1:12), he is the very source of life itself, for He is the living God, the one who is the fountain of life, and he has no beginning or end of existence. (Jeremiah 10:10, 17:13, Daniel 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Corinthians. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thessalonians. 1:9, Psalms. 36:9).

No where in the Bible does it states that God suddenly out of the blue becomes corruptible/moral. To think of someone who is that great to which nothing can contain him, would become visible flesh, that is somewhat absurd to conclude he could become a man.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

"f Jesus was God, then how would the sacrifice even work? It would make no sense at all...."

Because God only is sinless and ONLY a sinless sacrifice would work

Granted that God himself was known to have been offered sacrifice than you have Jesus' sacrifice which in turn enabled amnesty of sin an allowing us to be forgiven allow us a way to receive eternal life, in addition to the New Covenant, it should be pretty obvious as to how such works.

As for the rest of your comment, do you realize what you are saying?

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Trintarians make the claim that 'Jesus is God".  If that was true, wouldn't Jesus and God be interchangeable in the scriptures?  Insert God into the scripture when it is talking about Jesus and see what happens.

Let's try it. "So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)  If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs?  

How is it that God was worse than the angels until God has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs?  

Sounds something like Satan would say....   If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God is the Lamb of God?  Did God die for our sins?  Does he even realize the trinity replaces Christ with a false gospel.   Who did Satan tempt with Evil???  Jesus or God?

Can God be tempted with Evil??   

    Hello guest!

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Rejecting Christ does not beget salvation.    

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On 6/30/2018 at 12:45 PM, Brother Rando said:

What scripture teaches that?  The Scripture I found says the Opposite...

"God is not a man" (Numbers 23:19 KJV)   

 

 

Wow, ONE verse.Good on you!

 

Yes, in the OLD TESTAMENT times, Jesus was not on the earth in BODILY form.

 

So, at that time, correct.

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On 6/30/2018 at 4:14 PM, Brother Rando said:

Trintarians make the claim that 'Jesus is God".  If that was true, wouldn't Jesus and God be interchangeable in the scriptures?  Insert God into the scripture when it is talking about Jesus and see what happens.

Let's try it. "So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)  If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs?  

How is it that God was worse than the angels until God has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs?  

Sounds something like Satan would say....   If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God is the Lamb of God?  Did God die for our sins?  Does he even realize the trinity replaces Christ with a false gospel.   Who did Satan tempt with Evil???  Jesus or God?

Can God be tempted with Evil??   

    Hello guest!

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Rejecting Christ does not beget salvation.    

anti-Christians DENY that Jesus is God, DENY the cross, DENY hell, DENY the bodily resurrection and yet still have the nerve to call themselves "Christian".

 

JEHOVAH’S NAME or JESUS CHRIST’S NAME.


The Watchtower teaches that God’s true Name is Jehovah. They teach that:

‘Sometime during the second or third Century CE, the scribes removed the tetragrammaton (JHWH) from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with κυριος (Lord) or θεος (God)’. Reference Edition of NWT, 1984, p 1564.

The Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) proves that Jesus is Jehovah God.

On page 10,11 of the 1985 KIT, under the heading ‘Restoring the Divine Name, Jehovah’ we read: ‘the evidence (what evidence?) is that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with (no proof) . . . Sometime during the second or third centuries CE, the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) was eliminated from the Greek texts by copyists (no proof).

Instead of YHWH they substituted the words Kurios (‘Lord’) and Theos (‘God’).’

Note: This is a lie. There is no historical or manuscript evidence or evidence of protest to support this claim. Somebody would have protested such a change.No one did. It never happened.

The New World Translation (NWT) is the JW perversion of the Bible made to support their false doctrines. It inserts the name ‘Jehovah’ in the New Testament in the place of God (θεος=theos) or Lord (κυριος =kurios) on 237 occasions, where they believe it refers to God the
Father. They often refer to Hebrew translations of the NT to see where this has been done.

These are footnoted as J1 to J27. Their dishonesty and deceit is shown by their failure to translate these words as ‘Jehovah’ when it refers to Christ. (eg: Philippians 2:11; Hebrews 1:10).

JWs say that the proper use of God’s ‘correct’ name (Jehovah) is absolutely essential to one’s salvation. They quote from their NWT: 

‘Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.’ Romans 10:13 (NWT).

‘People will have to know that I am Jehovah.’ Ezekiel 39:6 (NWT).
JWs believe that because they are the only group who refer to God by His ‘true’ name, Jehovah, they are the only true followers of God.

Their claim is false for these reasons:

1) Jehovah is not a Biblical term. It is a man-made term. The Old Testament has YHWH because the original Hebrew only had consonants. Jews feared taking God’s name in vain, so when they publicly read YHWH, they would pronounce it ‘Adonai’ (Lord).
Later they inserted the vowels from Adonai (a-o-a) into the consonants YHWH to give YAHOWAH, which became Jehovah. Hence, the word Jehovah comes from a consonantvowel
combination from YHWH and Adonai.

2) No-one knows for sure the original correct pronunciation of YHWH. Hence we cannot insist on ‘Jehovah’ as being correct.
3) Jesus never addressed the Father as Jehovah in the New Testament. If JWs are correct that God must be always called Jehovah, then Jesus was sinning by not calling God ‘Jehovah’. When the NWT puts Jehovah in Jesus’ mouth in the NT, it contradicts all the NT manuscripts which don’t have it.

QUESTION: Since Jesus never in the NT addressed the Father as Jehovah, why should we?

4) Jesus and the Apostle Paul tell us to address God as ‘Father’:

a) Jesus taught us to pray to God as ‘Our Father’, not ‘Our Jehovah’: ‘After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father.....’ (Matthew 6:9).

b) Jesus addressed God as Father in His own prayers:

‘I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth’. (Matthew 11:25).
‘O my Father, if it be possible.......’ (Matthew 26:39,42).
‘He said, Abba, Father.......’ (Mark 14:36).
‘ I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven.......’ (Luke 10:21).
‘Saying, Father, if thou be willing.......’ (Luke 22:42).
‘Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them;.......’ (Luke 23:34).
‘Father, the hour is come......’ (John 17:1).

c) Paul said, ‘we cry, Abba, Father.’ (Romans 8:15).

d) The Holy Spirit through Paul said, ‘God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father’. (Galatians 4:6).
Here the Holy Spirit of God tells us to call God ‘Abba, Father’, not ‘Jehovah’

QUESTION: If Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Paul all address God as Father nine times (and never as Jehovah) then shouldn’t we call God ‘Father’?

5) No Ancient NT manuscripts contain the tetragram (YHWH) to translate as Jehovah.

The Church writers before 325 AD only mention Jehovah once in passing. JWs tell us that most Bible versions deceive people because they omit Jehovah as God’s Name, so
the JWs dishonestly add the word ‘Jehovah’ to the NT text, even though it is not in any NT Greek manuscript, ancient version, papyri or lectionary.

The WT’s claim that ‘Jehovah’ as God’s name was removed from the NT by superstitious scribes, is a total lie with no supporting historical or manuscript evidence.

6) Whose Name did the early Christians identify themselves with? Was it Jehovah or was it Jesus Christ? Always Jesus Christ, never Jehovah.

Who knows more, the Apostles or modern JWs? Consider these examples:

a) The Apostles never used the name ‘Jehovah’.

b) The Apostles and first century Christians were never called ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’. ‘The disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.’ (Acts 11:26).

c) There is no proof that Jesus or his disciples ever pronounced the tetragram YHWH. 

JWs claim that when Jesus read from Isaiah 61:1 ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....’ as quoted in Luke 4:18,19, that Jesus pronounced the word ‘YHWH’.

This is most unlikely. JWs assume that the religious leaders endorsing Christ’s ‘gracious words’ in verse 22 was because He uttered the name YHWH?

Historical records in the Mishnah, from Josephus, and from other sources show the Jews were loathe to allow the name YHWH to be used. The Jews would not have tolerated it being used by anybody but the High Priest.Jesus would have read ‘Adonai’

7) 119 Bible passages referring to Jehovah, are quoted and applied to Christ in the New Testament (Proof Available)

QUESTION: In view of 119 Bible verses applying ‘Jehovah’ to Christ in the NT, what does this tell you about who Christ is?

? The New Testament tells us to name the name of Jesus Christ, not the name of Jehovah. Consider these examples:

1. ‘Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.’(II Timothy 2:19)

2. ‘I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .’ (I Cor 1:10)

3. ‘Ye are washed,....sanctified,... justified in the name of the Lord Jesus ’ (I Cor 6:11)

4. ‘Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus.’ (Col 3:17)

5. ‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you....’ (II Thess 1:12)

6. ‘Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves.....’ (II Thess. 3:6)

7. ‘all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.’ (I Corinthians 1:2)

8. ‘Thou holdest fast my name....’ Jesus said to the Pergamos church. (Revelation 2:13).

JWs have not held fast Christ’s name, nor have they called upon Christ’s name, nor do they name the name of Christ, nor is Jesus Christ precious to them, because they do not have saving belief in Him. ‘Unto you . . . which believe He is precious’.(I Peter 2:7).

QUESTION: Where does the NT tell us to name the name of Jehovah?

9) The New Testament always lifts up Jesus Christ’s name, not Jehovah’s name. Why?

Because Jesus Christ is Jehovah God on earth. Christ is 100% God and 100% man.

Q1: In whose name should we meet together?
‘Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.’ (Matthew 18:20)

Q2: Demons were cast out by the authority of whose name?
‘Paul.....said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ (Acts 16:18)

Q3: In whose name should we preach repentance and forgiveness of sins? ‘And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations. And ye are witnesses of these things.’ (Luke 24:47,48)

Q4: In whose name are we to believe and receive forgiveness of sins? ‘....through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.’ (Acts 10:43, John 1:12)

Q5: By whose name, and no other, do we obtain salvation? Acts 4:10,12 says: ‘by the name of Jesus Christ ... Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.’

Q6: In whose name should we pray? John 16:23,24; 14:13,14; 15:16 says: ‘Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.’

Q7: In whose name is the Holy Spirit sent?
‘But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name......’ (John 14:26)

Q8: In whose name and authority did the disciples heal the sick?
‘His name through faith in his name hath made this man strong’ (Acts 3:16; 4:30)

Q9: Whose name did Paul say that we are to call upon?
‘ all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.’ (I Cor 1:2)

Q10: Whose name is above every name?
‘God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name .... that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.’(Phil 2:9-11)

Paul’s quote about Christ is from Isaiah 45:22-24 where every knee will bow to Jehovah. What is true about Jehovah, is also true of Christ, the Lord of all mankind

Q11: According to Acts 1:8, of whom are we to be witnesses?
‘Ye shall be witnesses unto me (Jesus)’

Q12: In whose name were believers baptized?
‘they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus’. (Acts 8:16; 2:38)

Q13: In whose name were believers designated?
‘the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch’. (Acts 11:26)

Q14: In whose name did the apostles speak?
‘Commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus’ Acts 4:17,18

Q15: In whose name did early Christians suffer? Acts 15:26 says:
‘Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ ‘rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name’Acts 5:41;9:16

Q16: Whose name was Paul to carry?
‘Lord said: He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.’ (Acts 9:15)

Q17: In whose name did Paul deliver a man to Satan?
‘In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...to deliver such an one to Satan.’ I Cor 5:4,5

Q18: In whose name did the apostles teach? Acts 5:28; 8:12 says:
‘Did we not straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name?’

10) Why does WT break their own rule (where the OT speaks of Jehovah), that they do not insert Jehovah in the NT, when the quote clearly refers to Christ?

Peter quotes from Joel 2:32 (spoken of Jehovah) and applies it to Jesus in Acts 2:21 and 38.

Calling on the name of Jehovah for salvation equals repenting and being baptised in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of sins.

Conclusion: Jesus shares the nature of His Father and His Name. The absence of YHWH in any NT manuscript demolishes the WT case of introducing the word ‘Jehovah’ into the NT.

Question: If God was so concerned about preserving His covenant name, why did the apostles not preserve it in their writings?

Question: To imply that the name ‘Jehovah’ is the main name of God that we are to use, contradicts the continued NT use of the name ‘Jesus’ on 900 occasions, while the tetragram YHWH is used nowhere in the NT.

QUESTION: Why does the WT not translate ‘Jehovah’ into Hebrews 1:10, I Peter 3:15 andPhilippians 2:11, when the OT passages from which these are quoted refer to YHWH?


We are to make the name of the Father known as Jesus emphasized (Matthew 6:9; John 17:26). How do we do it? By recognizing that Jesus Christ was chosen by the Father to embody all the glory and important reputation of that Name.
 

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On 6/30/2018 at 12:44 PM, Anna said:

What makes you think Jesus wasn't sinless?

When YOU see the word "God", you automatically in your mind that word is translated to "God the father".

 

To a Christian, "God" means the Godhead.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 12:44 PM, Anna said:

Attempts have been made to define the trinity, but they sound so alienated from what the Bible says, it's almost sounds like trying define a multiple personality disorder. In fact reading some explanations of what the trinity is supposed to mean really puts my brain in a pretzel.

 

Oh, i know.

 

If i could understand HOW God IS God, i would BE God.

We are never told HOW God is a trinity ( for want of a better phrase ). Just because WE cannot understand it with our limited brains does not make it false.

I dont understand exactly HOW my computer words. Electrical signals make these words appear on my screen. I dont understand it.

Therefore, it  is not true?

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.


God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent.


The Bible says that God the father is referred to as God.

The Bible says that Jesus is referred to as God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is referred to as God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11

The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.

Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.

We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us that's the way it is.

 

 

 

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@Jesus.defender It's also alluded to in the New Testament, whereas Jesus made mention of God not having much of a form at all, since he is a Spirit after all. Indeed one verses, but there are several.

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

When YOU see the word "God", you automatically in your mind that word is translated to "God the father".

To a Christian, "God" means the Godhead.

3068 says otherwise.

And nowhere in the bible does it say there are 3 who consist of being one God. The bible is explicit, that the only God is the Father, even God's own testimony makes such even true in addition to the very laws upon laws that consist of such that has been brought forth in Moses' day.

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14 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent.

Yes. God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. "O Jehovah, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations.
  Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." (Psalms 90:1-2)

Notice that scripture doesn't state "Jesus".  Jesus wasn't always eternal since the Scriptures show the Father granted life to his Son. "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself." (

    Hello guest!
)

Jesus was the Firstborn that was Born Again or Brought Forth Again:

 

    Hello guest!

And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. 

(1 Peter 3:21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 

    Hello guest!
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

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