A Difficult Doctrine. With an easy explanation.

[JW Insider]

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t see any backing off of 1914 whatsoever.

Yes, of course. And this issue of the 1,260 and Revelation 11 from this week's meeting was actually the real reason I started this topic. But I do not expect that any trend is being looked at for the purpose of backing off from 1914. I think that this is a bit backwards. I think that the fewer and fewer discussions of Jesus' kingship and presence in 1914 will result in a rethinking of this particular use of the 1914 date.

Also, 1914 will ALWAYS have a place in our preaching, just because it helps us to mark the times we live in now as a fulfillment of prophecy for a time when men will become faint out of fear and expectation, and a time when the creation is groaning for release.

[Anna]

35 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I can envision several historic Watchtowers, to run in successive weeks:

1) We are out of harmony with the majority of ancient date scholars. Therefore, let us acknowledge that they must be right, and kick 1914 to the curb—Advertising, League, WWI, Atlanta—it all goes.

2) We are out of harmony with the majority of scientists. Therefore let us concede that Darwinian evolution is the bee’s knees and let us consign Adam and Eve to fairy tale.

3) Let us work on giving our children a “good education” so that they can get a “good job” and turn their talents to making a difference in the world—let us get in there and fix those problems! We can do it!

4) Let’s get Trump out of office and the sooner the better! He spreads meanness. Of course, we realize that some in the congregation will feel another way. They can buy another building and meet there.

5) Let’s focus more on love. Why should we care about what gender people are attracted to? The Bible was written a long time ago when people had different sociological needs and were less enlightened than now.

6) Let’s lighten up on the kingdom preaching work. Who knows how far off it is? I mean, if you have time on your hands and nothing else to do, that’s okay, but don’t let it get in the way of anything important. Let’s have our religion but keep it in its place. There are many roads and they all lead to heaven.

Now you're getting silly!

[TrueTomHarley]

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

Now you're getting silly!

I don’t think so. 

I’m playing a bit, I admit, but not to the point of being silly.

Any historian will say that early Christians lived in expectation of the immanent end of this system. The Great Reawakening, or whatever it is called, from which Russell eventually emerges, invariably features expectations of just when the Lord will return. Branches of Christianity that do not concern themselves with this go an entirely different direction. They focus their efforts on improving the present world through education and charity. They abandon their resolve to stay separate from it.

It may be part of the equation that the two—expectations of the short time till the end, and kingdom proclamation with the unique teachings that are JW alone—must always go together. Maybe it is the great Carrot and Stick game of God, knowing how we are. At any rate, I think it most unlikely they will ever tinker with the formula much.

Is the 33-doctrine tinkering with the formula? By moving the beginning back in time, I think it will be hard not to also move the day off into the vague future. It may be that some are gingerly poking at the foundation, as JWI seems to think, but I would not expect any wholesale change.

[JW Insider]

On 12/13/2019 at 12:15 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Moreover, I thought of talks I had put together over the years, using some of the details in those verses. I thought of how I had made a big deal of Rutherford & crew unambiguously ‘advertise, advertise, advertising’ the King and his Kingdom

To coin a phrase: Me too!

The 1914 doctrine has a lot going for it in terms of creating urgency and creating a dramatic interlocking picture of our times. The only thing it doesn't have going for it is a consistent Biblical picture (in my opinion).

But that urgency --based on 1914, specifically-- is already leaving the picture. The urgency for the world is based on a more common sense look at the "critical times" we live in. We often mention the nuclear age, and this is what Brother Bert Schroeder had in mind when he proposed we change the beginning of the generation to 1957. We are looking at climate-related crises that result in wars and migration from lack of fresh water, lack of arable land, soon-to-be food shortage fears just like those of 1975, fires, and more frequent and powerful storms.  

We can still point back to 1914 as a time when the "spirit" of the world took a turn, became more selfish, more violent, and the stability of nations was proven to be illusory.

I don't think we will lose as much as we currently fear.

On 12/13/2019 at 12:15 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

I thought of how I had made a big deal of Rutherford & crew unambiguously ‘advertise, advertise, advertising’ the King and his Kingdom at almost the exact same moment that the Federal Counsel of Churches was hailing the League of Nations as the political expression of the kingdom on earth today—each side publicly parting ways at the fork in the road.

I'm not sure why this would no longer have importance, either. Still, Jesus did not have to just begin ruling just 4 or 5 years prior to our stance on the League of Nations for this to still be a significant turning point in the historical path of our ministry. Jesus did not need to have only been ruling for 8 years when Rutherford made an advertising splash to focus on the idea that Jesus had returned in 1874 and would begin a very visible resurrection in 1925. (As you might recall, 1914 was only a small part of the overall picture that Rutherford was pushing at Cedar Point, OH in 1922.)

And of course, the Watchtower had only very recently (1918) hailed the League of Nations as a very positive political expression of Christ's kingdom on earth, while other groups, including those whom Rutherford might refer to as the "Evil Slave" were already warning against this kind of fellowship with the world.

But none of those errors negate what you said. There was indeed a very public parting of the ways between mainstream religion and the Bible Students starting around 1919 which reached a culmination over the next decade.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But this leaves us in the "middle of nowhere" if we were to count back from today. For example, 2020 minus 1260 brings us to 760 C.E.

Have you not read of Trutom Harley, an underappreciated luminary who lived from 722-795 CE? Call him a “nowhere man”?

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

We often mention the nuclear age, and this is what Brother Bert Schroeder had in mind when he proposed we change the beginning of the generation to 1957.

Did he? Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. On what basis? The bomb was dropped in 1945–or is it that Sputnik is 1957? A hard sell, I would think.

As for Nebuchadnezzar, so far my suggestion that he is the pre-type of Ralph Kramden has been unwisely ignored, and I hope the brothers survive the egg on their face when they come to realize how right I was.

Ralph—just like Neb:

1) Unbearably boastful and obnoxious.

2) Absolutely abased each time with the greatest humiliation.

3) Learns absolutely nothing. The beginning of each new show has him at his blowhard worst.

 

[JW Insider]

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did he? Forgive me if it has already been mentioned. On what basis? The bomb was dropped in 1945–or is it that Sputnik is 1957? A hard sell, I would think.

Sputnik specifically. (Or perhaps he knew my birthday was in 1957. His own son's birthday was in 1958.) Yes, it's a hard sell when FWFranz was still the strongest voice on the GB, but he managed to get two other members of the GB to sign on with him in order to present the idea. The basis of the idea comes from a combination of factors, some from the older "yw" Daniel book (Your Will Be Done on Earth), which discussed signs in the heavens from things like Sputnik, and nuclear fears. And some from the then-current explanation of Matthew 24 in the "ka" book which broke the prophecy into 3 different parts, so that the beginning of "this generation" didn't have to be directly tied to the part about the beginning of the parousia with its wars and earthquakes, etc.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Yes, of course. And this issue of the 1,260 and Revelation 11 from this week's meeting was actually the real reason I started this topic.

One unanticipated personal consequence of going digital is that I read nothing until the week it is to be considered at meeting. I have not read the new Ezekiel book yet. Back in the day of subscriptions, I would read that entire Watchtower at the nearest opportunity. Doesn’t happen anymore. I never think to download the latest until I need it.

In recent years I’ve come to think a lot about Paul’s counsel to follow the pattern of the healthful words. At first, the healthful words are retrieved and spit out verbatim—it is the nature of much of our research. But if you’ve been around long enough, you soon to learn to pick up on the pattern and you can originate them yourself. 

It is as Mike Tussin used to say, a real person from No Fake News whose name I changed with the most sordid upbringing and the most telling common sense. He would explain how it was with the GB (in the 1970s). “They study and study and one of them notices a point and discusses it with the others. After subsequent discussion reaches agreement, it gets into print. Now, in your own personal study, you may have noticed that point, too,” I can hear him explaining now, “and if this was Christendom, you’d go out and start your own religion over it.” 

For a brief time, he was a roommate of mine. He drove me nuts in taking literally the admonition to read God’s Word “in an undertone day and night.” In time, he learned that he had better not do it in my presence.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And now you propose that it should all go? What would be the effect of this strange new teaching of yours that Jesus began to rule in 1933–period, end of story—and that WWI was just “boys will be boys?” How will it affect “last days,” ‘urgency of the end,’ ‘the end of all things has drawn close’ ‘ridiculers will come with their ridicule’ and so forth?

Since you are asking, I'll take a cue from 1 Peter 3:15 and let you know what I'm thinking here.

First of all we already believe that Jesus began to rule in 33. (I hope that was a mistake where you said 1933.)

(Colossians 1:13-20) . . .He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

There is no indication here that the Kingdom of God's Son is any different than the Kingdom of God which had now become the Kingdom of his Christ. In fact, you might notice a couple of other parallels between Colossians and Revelation, including the hurling down of Satan (rescuing us from the authority of the darkness). Also, perhaps by coincidence, the immediate context of Colossians also discussed the salvation and the power and the Kingdom and the authority and the conquering through the blood of the Lamb.

(Revelation 12:10, 11) . . .Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

The idea that Satan was cast down in 33 is also repeated several times in the Greek Scriptures.

[TrueTomHarley]

37 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Sputnik specifically.

Another sinister feather in the cap of the northern king. Did he want to tie in the Daniel prophesy?

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Another sinister feather in the cap of the northern king. Did he want to tie in the Daniel prophesy?

No idea. The primary point was that people would tremble at such signs in the heavens. A space race with military implications was already hinted at in part of the yw book, which was already about Daniel and therefore had the king of the north in its sights.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do I understand this correctly? (Maybe I don’t) We have been living in the last days since 33? Constantine lived in the last days and should have been keeping on the watch? Napoleon lived in the last days? George Washington lived in the last days? Sleepy Rip Van Winkle lived in the last ‘Keep on the watch’ days? People couldn’t even read that there were last days that they were supposed to be keeping on the watch for until 3-400 years ago when the Bible began to appear in languages other than Latin!

Like you, I find it difficult to envision Christ's enthronement in 33 CE, for pretty much the same reasons as you. The urgency and keeping on the watch would almost seem cruel, if it was to last nearly 2000 years. Unless you think about those who have been waiting since the end of the 1800's and that have now died. Well for them, it was a lifetime of waiting anyway, so pretty much we could say that there would be no difference between someone waiting their whole lifetime in the middle ages and dying, than someone waiting their whole lifetime and dying now. I mean with respect to the individual. It seems like the scripture "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace"  would have practical meaning for both individuals. I am assuming that most ordinary folk (at least in Christianized nations) were aware that if they lived a good and godly life they would land in heaven. That was the reward. But you do make a good point when you say that the holy writings were not accessible to ordinary folk, and most couldn't read so would they even know  what Peter wrote about in 2 Peter ch3?

On top of that, "Christian" religion, Catholicism, did not advocate millennialism much, if at all. It wasn't until the protestant reformation in the 16 the century that millenialism was revived.

Excerpt from the Catholic encyclopedia: (I don't expect you to read it all, just here for info) " Protestant fanatics (lol) of the earlier years, particularly the Anabaptists, believed in a new, golden age under the sceptre of Christ, after the overthrow of the papacy and secular empires. In 1534 the Anabaptists set up in Münster (Westphalia) the new Kingdom of Zion, which advocated sharing property and women in common, as a prelude to the new kingdom of Christ. Their excesses were opposed and their millenarianism disowned by both the Augsberg (art. 17) and the Helvetian Confession (ch. 11), so that it found no admission into the Lutheran and Reformed theologies. Nevertheless, the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries produced new apocalyptic fanatics (lol) and mystics who expected the millennium in one form or another: in Germany, the Bohemian and Moravian Brethren (Comenius); in France, Pierre Jurien (L'Accomplissement des Propheties, 1686); in England at the time of Cromwell, the Independents and Jane Leade. A new phase in the development of millenarian views among the Protestants commenced with Pietism. One of the chief champions of the millennium in Germany was I.A. Bengel and his disciple Crusius, who were afterwards joined by Rothe, Volch, Thiersch, Lange and others. Protestants from Wurtemberg emigrated to Palestine (Temple Communities) in order to be closer to Christ at His second advent. Certain fantastical sects of England and North America, such as the Irvingites, Mormons, Adventists, adopted both apocalyptic and millenarian views, expecting the return of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom at an early date. Some Catholic theologians of the nineteenth century championed a moderate, modified millenarianism, especially in connection with their explanations of the Apocalypse.

So it would appear that anyone living from 33 C.E  up to the 16th century (apart from the disciples and early Christian congregation, and some early church fathers) would have no idea about even the existence of the coming of Christ as king of a 1000 year kingdom...

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It's a difficult doctrine, with an easy explanation.

The Earth is about 3.5 billion years old.

Each creative day is (3.5 billion divided by 7 = 500,000,000) about 500 million years..

Armageddon will occur at the "End of Days".

Therefore ... "Stay Alive, 'till 500,001,975".

See?

The math works out perfectly, AND it agrees with fossils !

TA DA!

Plus! --- the .ORG gets a LOT of "wiggle room".

As Marvin Webster sez: "Ya'll think about it."